Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25133 posts, RR: 46
Posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 29122 times:

As result of American Airlines vacating its its JFK-Haneda route and slots, and the subsequent interest by Hawaiian Air ( Hawaiian Applies For Kona-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 22 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) and United Airlines ( United Applies For SFO-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 17 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) for replacement service, the DOT has decided to institute a formal route award proceeding.

DOT has established the following timeline:

Petitions: November 19, 2013
Answers to Petitions: November 22, 2013
Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 4, 2013
Replies: December 9, 2013

OST-2010-0018

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
211 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7562 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 28963 times:

I cant imagine anyone else even wants them.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28748 times:

I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28605 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 2):
I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route

I think DL knows there is next to zero chance they will be given these slots, and are picking their battles elsewhere.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25133 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 27554 times:

Due to Thanksgiving holiday, DOT adjusted the filing schedule back by 1-week.

Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 9, 2013
Replies: December 16, 2013

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 27385 times:

UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1769 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 months 1 week ago) and read 27272 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

How much value does that add to UA vs basing that slot pairing at SFO? UA has the ability to funnel a lot more traffic from SFO than GUM.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 27014 times:

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 6):

That depends on what traffic UA is going for...
Tokyo HND originating vacation traffic to Guam could be more profitable than funneling SFO connecting traffic to HND.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25133 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (9 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 26434 times:

Updated applications were filed today.


Hawaiian Air made its case that the proposed Kona - Haneda service would maximize consumer benefit by linking Hawaii's second busiest Japan O&D pair for the first time with Tokyo close in airport. Carrier also states as the only US carrier that has consistently maintained its service to Haneda since first route award in 2010, its well positioned to further grow its Haneda portfolio at minimal risk while providing unique economic benefit to Hawaii communities.

Proposed schedule:
HA432 KOA-HND 1750-2200 332
HA431 HND-KOA 2355-1245 332


United Airlines reaffirmed its comments that its proposal by far provides the biggest consumer benefits by offering US carrier service from its SFO gateway to Haneda.
UA states, not only is SF-Tokyo one of the nations top international pairs, but the carrier is well positioned to capture feed from 33 California and Western US markets providing millions of US consumers easy access to HND.

Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

UA also states that with arrival of additional 787s in the fleet, the carrier will have the flexibility to adjust capacity seasonally if required.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 26128 times:

A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...


United's B747-400. "She's a a cruel lover."
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25133 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 26050 times:

As much business sense that it might make to transfer over one of the many GUM-NRT runs to HND, unfortunately that is not something the DOT will view as being very appealing.
Though such a flight would virtually provide zero commercial risk, and likely make the Guam flight even more desirable by folks in central Tokyo who might balk at venturing out to NRT if they dont need to.

I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22910 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 26032 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.

The problem with capacity is that it's meaningless in the absence of demand. If there is a 777 worth of demand 8 months of the year and a 787 worth of demand the other 4 months, running a 777 year round is no better (and is arguably worse). Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 25983 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 9):
A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...

Please please please be true!
I am so tired of having to leave US east coast on Saturday (or Sunday) morning so I can make a Monday (or Tuesday) meeting in Tokyo, which I have to do because all the UA flights seem to arrive at NRT at 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon. I've always wanted to land at ~10:00pm and to do so at Haneda would be SO much better than NRT.

The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 25748 times:

UA has the highest chance, since they've never been in the HND market.

HA has the flight to HNL already and I highly doubt they'll get another one.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1013 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 25678 times:

however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.


xx
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 25507 times:

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.

They extended the last run of the monorail till past midnight....I say landing past 10:30 or 11:00 is a bad idea.

The last run for the Yamanote loop line is around 1:15AM, but at that time, almost all of the trains are terminating at Shinagawa or Osaki stations, so unless their hotel is in Shinagawa, they're gonna have a hard time.
Honestly, the easiest last run on the Yamanote is around 12:30Am. but it may be packed. Most subways are done by 12:30AM.
There's talk to create an express train from HND to Tokyo Station but I don't see that happening until maybe right before the Olympics.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineSVA402 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25206 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25133 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (9 months 10 hours ago) and read 24571 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.

In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

As far using 787, Japan does definitely have seasonal swings, to being able to utilize something with 60'ish less seats during certain periods should help UA keep the cost better in line.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 8 hours ago) and read 24402 times:

Quoting SVA402 (Reply 16):
If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....

I agree give back what you took away before awarding to others...GUM really needs the HND slots DL can use them also for GUM-HND and SPN-HND 97% is local traffic not conecting..


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (9 months ago) and read 24037 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

Thats partially why I see UA getting the flight.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22910 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 23666 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

I agree. Judging from the onboard loads, the non-west coast flights hardly had a 777 worth of demand 1 day a year, let alone 8 months.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2953 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 23166 times:

Any updates, and did any other airline petition for routes?

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
GUM really needs the HND slots

Hardly, deserving. GUM is a leisure destination with very little business traffic and tourists inconvenienced by a thirty extra minutes of trekking out to NRT is no big deal.
With thay being said, I really should add more flights during the overnight hours when NRT is shutdown due to curfew.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 23070 times:

GUM is the 2nd US destination outside HNL for Japnese, HND-GUM flights would be full. Problems is after midnite flights is lack of Public Transportaion at HND at those hours..

User currently onlineshengzhurou From China, joined May 2010, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 22818 times:

would UA drop the 2nd NRT flight UA852/853 so they can feed more pax to the HND flight if they get the slot? this flight is been operating by a 747 lately and it's hardly full.


Sheng Zhu Rou
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 22536 times:

Quoting dfambro (Reply 12):
The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.

You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
25 copter808 : But you would be able to get back by early morning before the work day begins.
26 Cubsrule : That's actually not a bad schedule, and it's a little later than many of the options from Tokyo to the midwest and east coast; it should be easy to c
27 dfambro : Thanks, that's a good suggestion which I had not considered!
28 Carpethead : I won't argue over volume on that route, but is it really necessary for a HND slot. For example, there is not a whole lot of leisure destinations bei
29 COSPN : But GUM can fill it year round with 777-200 348 pax, besides just want the HND slot that was taken when the flight was forced to NRT
30 irishayes : When will the replies be issued?
31 psa1011 : I think per the above answers are to be in by today, with replies by 12/16, although I'm not clear on who is replying/answering when.
32 a380787 : Regardless of whether UA gets the SFO slot they want, the biggest HND news is actually the daylight slot for AC's YYZ-HND, offering an extremely well-
33 jfk777 : Air Canada just launched Toronto - Haneda with daylight hours, wll USA airlines ever be allowed daylight hours to HND ?ANA just announced HND to LHR a
34 a380787 : Japan recently went through a round of daylight HND slots, and US got none of it. Supposedly no more new HND daylight slot rounds until after Tokyo 2
35 Roseflyer : I think there is no doubt that HND-KOA would work. There seems to be limitless demand to Hawaii from Tokyo and the slot timings work quite well for th
36 yra : So why did AA give up the rights to JFK-HND in the first place? That would seem an important route to keep especially post-merger with US.
37 jfk777 : thoght there were 4 slots for USA airlines.
38 a380787 : sadly, none Canada 1 China 2 England 2 France 2 Germany 2 Indonesia 1 Singapore 2 Thailand 1 Vietnam 1
39 Post contains links sr117 : As of yet.. According to this, slots for the US are yet to be awarded: http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irport-remains-the-main-hub-132103 Slot
40 ridgid727 : In the course of the DOT's prosecution of these applications, Hawaiian has responded as follows in regard to their application. December 9, 2013 Conso
41 a380787 : What a load of self-serving propaganda. The only benefits of HND-KOA would be Japanese tourists and the state of Hawaii. Meanwhile, with a HND-SFO fl
42 COSPN : GUM is much bigger market than than KOA
43 a380787 : I'm actually surprised that the Japanese like KOA more than OGG ... some cultural links ?
44 BoeingGuy : I'm not sure they do. I think it has more to do with runway lengths. OGG is about 6900 feet, which is probably too short for OGG-TYO non-stop. KOA is
45 Deltal1011man : no. it would be about 3,000nm....which is the max range for the 800(WL) and about 200nms short for a 900ER(WL) without extra tanks.....which I believ
46 PHX787 : The slots at HND IIRC were meant to go towards sAsian countries and the middle east. The USA already has a very large chunk of slots at HND. I person
47 a380787 : In that scenario, Narita would immediately become the next Mirabel Not to mention pure laissez faire leads to over-scheduling and slot squatting by t
48 Post contains links irishayes : It would be nonsensical given that there is little local demand from Alaska to Japan aside from cargo. If there was, then AS would have started a fli
49 a380787 : Except that ANC-NRT is 3433mi, and I don't know any plane in their fleet that could handle that reliably without major payload penalty
50 apodino : They were losing their shirt on this route because the timing of the flights was bad, and they couldn't attract any fliers to the route. What was sur
51 PHX787 : Yup that's why they won't do it.
52 briboy : At YYZ: * outbound to HND from the USA there is a very quick short-cut Canadian passport control (never any line) * inbound from HND to the USA there
53 psa1011 : Any news on this yet?
54 dlflynhayn : Kona(BigIsland) is what a lot of Hawaiians call real Hawaii,it definitely has more culture,land mass,different climates and also lots of untouch beac
55 psa1011 : The replies by HA & UA are now up on regulations.gov. Both sides have interesting arguments, and I actually laughed while reading the reply by HA.
56 SonomaFlyer : We should hear something by the end of January.
57 azjubilee : What was so funny?
58 psa1011 : HA couldn't help but poke holes in UA's illustration of how many "Asians" resided in the Bay Area and would use a flight to HND, describing this clai
59 psa1011 : I am partial to the UA application, though - while HA makes the argument that JAL downguaged SFO to a 787, they seem to be ignoring the fact that KOA
60 azjubilee : Interesting. I read a fact filled document presenting Hawaiian's case with compelling arguments. It was UA that raised the race issue, which I agree
61 psa1011 : I'm sure there's a market for Japan-KOA, I'm just not sure if the DOT would think that the mostly tourist market would require a flight from HND vs.
62 azjubilee : Not that I'm aware of. JAL has drastically reduced their flying to Hawaii and only seem focused on the KIX, NRT and NGO markets. The mostly tourist m
63 LAXintl : In the past, arguments like inbound tourism is not something that appealed to the US DOT rightfully. The DOT in its mandate is required to consider US
64 airportugal310 : Ya well the DOTs past decisions ala AA and DL haven't really panned out as anticipated so their decisions should be taken with a grain of salt... HA
65 jfk777 : What makes Haneda tough is that you have to arrive after 2200 hours and depart before 0700, its a schedule only a Vampire could like.
66 BeachBoy : As most people on this forum think, I also feel UA will get it. As a Hawaii-based traveler, I find it interesting that HA only wants to fly out of HND
67 CV880 : The runways at both airports are not long enough to handle flights to Japan and plans to extend the runway at OGG have been shot down since 2000. A n
68 BeachBoy : But they could still establish the routes w/ 767s and fly it NRT-LIH-HNL-NRT and NRT-OGG-HNL/KOA-NRT.
69 psa1011 : Exactly. HA could've started KOA-NRT before expanding to BNE, ICN, etc.I think their case would be stronger if they could demonstrate a KOA-TYO route
70 Post contains images airportugal310 : Do you HONESTLY think that homework hasn't been done on this? Man, the odd assumptions people have been making on these boards lately are just mind b
71 psa1011 : Is there any logical justification for HA not already operating KOA-NRT? I read their submission, and yes it does appear there is a market, but frank
72 CV880 : [quote=BeachBoy,reply=68]But they could still establish the routes w/ 767s and fly it NRT-LIH-HNL-NRT and NRT-OGG-HNL/KOA-NRT. Not very cost effective
73 PHX787 : A little birdy told me UA pretty much has this one made. Unless HA makes one final push.
74 a380787 : Depends on how you want to deal with aircraft utilization You can easily arrive HND at 7am but leave at 10pm, thus being convenient from the Tokyo st
75 Carpethead : Convenient for Japanese airlines for sure, but not exactly for foreign airlines as they will rack up parking fees on top of the usual airport user fe
76 slcdeltarumd11 : The route was apparently loosing a ton of money. Its important but everything has a price and this apparently wasn't worth it. Passengers can still f
77 azjubilee : HAL serving HND and not NRT is simple. They can command fare premiums from HND, which they could not from NRT. Running a split operation would be sill
78 HNLPointShoot : My understanding of why HA doesn't fly to NRT is that they haven't been able to obtain any slots there that work for them. Not sure if that's correct
79 LAXintl : There is a growing abundance of NRT slots. The airport has done a good job growing its capacity from around 220,000 a decade ago to 270,000 movement
80 MaverickM11 : Does anyone else have a credible bid? Well, there are loads of slots and the LCCs aren't getting into HND any time soon, where they (and everyone els
81 azjubilee : Uh yeah… the other bidder is Hawaiian. Again… HAL serving HND and not NRT is simple. They can command fare premiums from HND, which they could no
82 MaverickM11 : I don't really view it as a credible bid, especially since HA doesn't even serve the mainline US from KOA. Seems like a hail mary to me...and benefit
83 DocLightning : I think if HA were actually serious about serving KOA from Japan, they would rather have commanded some fare instead of no fare. UA for instance, cou
84 azjubilee : What does serving the US Mainland nonstop from KOA have to do with anything? By the way KOA-LAX and KOA-OAK service starts this summer. With the nume
85 COSPN : KOA are you kidding!!! just give it to Guam for the GUM-HND flight they forced to move NRT in 1977 UA will gladly fly a 777 in the daytime slot Contin
86 airportugal310 : Ya, no. GUM is not a topic of discussion at this point
87 MaverickM11 : Nothing really--seasonal, weekly OAK/LAX service notwithstanding--but it underlines the fact that HA's offering would be close to 100% local, and clo
88 DocLightning : For the record, that wasn't actually me. My husband (psa1011) posted that, not having realized that he was was signed on my account. However, I will
89 Jamake1 : Does anyone know when the DOT is going to announce who the vacant HND slot goes to...HA or UA?
90 COSPN : well sorry to be off topic but HND-GUM should be returned to GUM before routes like HND-DXB that did not serve HND in 1977 like Continental Micronesia
91 Post contains images LAXintl : I really don't care about the loss, as everyone had to move to NRT, but from a simple risk point of view a GUM route while not sexy would be very low
92 briboy : Who lugs suitcases around Japan when you can just Takkyubin them? HND is more convenient for much of Tokyo as well as Yokohama, but lugging luggage i
93 COSPN : CI was allowed to stay at HND and fly HND-HNL then allowed to fly NRT-GUM and KE flies NRT-GUM , so would be nice to get the slot returned, first ..
94 ktachiya : Well...... that was much more political than just slots. It was because of the relationship between the PRC (China) and ROC (Taiwan) and the extreme
95 anonms : As stated the last time you griped about this exact point, CI wasn't "allowed to stay at HND", CI (and BR) weren't "allowed to move to NRT" because o
96 JA743J : It's not like shipping the suitcase beforehand is worry freee solution. First, they have to take your bag two days before the departure. Also, the la
97 COSPN : Yes that is why slots should NEVER be given to an airline that wont serve NRT as well as HND UA will serve HND and NRT from SFO and HND and NRT from G
98 MaverickM11 : Passenger preference and behavior overwhelmingly points to a preference for HND over NRT, all other things equal.
99 Cubsrule : The trouble is that passengers as a whole don't necessarily have the same preferences as beach passengers.
100 PHX787 : I think the point of HA using HND instead of NRT is proper fleet utilization. That plane can turn at HND, leave the next morning and be ready for a se
101 PHX787 : Not from what I've heard and read. There's a lot of grumblings about the nighttime slots and the prices. But otherwise, being closer to the city has
102 azjubilee : It remains to be seen if UA can make HND work profitably. AA couldn't and DL is struggling. HA is the only one that has served HND consistently from
103 PHX787 : DL is struggling because of the time allotted to them, and the lack of viable connection partners in HND. AA is struggling because they decided their
104 Mah4546 : AA struggled because of the slot time. There is absolutely a market for JFK-HND, if it could operate at commercially reasonable times.
105 PHX787 : Then back to the argument above: Who is being a pain in the butt, the MOT, DOT, or AA?
106 Carpethead : That economy passenger stuck in 10-abreast 777.
107 Post contains images PHX787 : So they couldn't sell enough seats, huh. I wonder if they could make a 787 work on a dayshift flight.
108 azjubilee : All US carriers are subject to the same times, including UA, should they get the slots. Even JL and NH are using the late evening slots for their US
109 a380787 : The HA flight only benefit the Japanese tourists and the business owners in Hawaii, which won't help any part of the rest of the country. And they on
110 azjubilee : Last time I checked, Hawaii was a part of the USA and any economic impact, large or small is good for the country. True, UA would be able to provide
111 a380787 : First let's rule out midwest and east coast - none of those can work. Second, DL's flights are out of SEA and LAX now - the feed of BOTH hubs combine
112 azjubilee : True, but DL is banking on their AS feed, so that is relevant to their operation, therefore relevant to the discussion. There's no doubt that UAs fee
113 PHX787 : back back back back it up I'm talking about onward connections on NH flights codeshared by UA. Domestic, International, what have you. There's a lot
114 COSPN : GUM is part of the USA, they dont pay US Taxes, but supported by US taxpayer so the more $$ GUM makes on its own is less that the US has to send to Gu
115 azjubilee : UA is applying for AA's old slot, which operates at the horrible evening hours. Even if UA wanted a morning slot, they're not currently available yet
116 a380787 : AA JFK-HND 1810 - 2215 AA HND-JFK 0640 - 0515 UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772 UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772 It doesn't look identical to me. AA arrived HND
117 azjubilee : Ah yes, I had forgotten that AA left in the early morning hours for the return to the States. The point remains however, that UA will have no NH feed
118 Post contains images psa1011 : Which is why anyone originating in or connecting through SFO can take one of several SFO-NRT flights that leave earlier in the day - something which
119 civetfive : I think this is going to end up with SFO, and will result in UA cutting the 2nd NRT frequency. I can't imagine JL will love this, but its their only S
120 StuckInCA : Why exclude AS feed? Is that the way it goes? It seems just as likely to me that DL and AS will be partners (or one company) in 5 years as that UA wi
121 PHX787 : Oh I stand corrected then. 2210 arrival isn't too bad at all. And the departure at 0005 is not too bad either- one would expect to get to the airport
122 Post contains images psa1011 : Any news? I believe it's been four months since UA/HA applied, and about two months since final submissions were due. How long can it possibly take th
123 a/c dxer : Still nothing on this and it is almost March. Wonder what the holdup is?
124 psa1011 : Same question here. It's been over four months since proceedings began...
125 LAXintl : DOT is helping out.. Neither HA or UA wants to start the flight in the shoulder period. Both were looking at a summer start at earliest. Later the DOT
126 PHX787 : So basically, HA, UA, and the DOT are playing the waiting game....
127 BeachBoy : The delay makes me think that the DOT is giving serious consideration to HA's proposed KOA-HND service. If UA's SFO-HND case was a slam dunk, which is
128 LAXintl : Winner is.... United SFO-HND Details to follow...
129 LAXintl : DOT says it tentatively selects United because - 1) Introduce new entrant at HND 2) Offer direct competition against existing foreign carrier on SFO-H
130 psa1011 : How long is the appeals period?
131 LAXintl : 10-calender days to say one is seeking to object, followed by 7-day period to actually file the pleading.
132 a380787 : Yes ... finally, justice and equality is restored Previously it made no sense - the largest mainland TPAC gateway by a US carrier was exactly the one
133 DTWHKG : Agreed. This may force JL to go back to flying SFO-NRT.
134 mercure1 : Congrats United. Let see how they do at Haneda.
135 Post contains images Jamake1 : Totally concur... This is great news!
136 LAXintl : So any guesses on 787 or 777? Proposal suggest either could be used depending on demand. I'd say if they can spare 787s by late summer that would be s
137 PHX787 : Spot on, not surprised. That's the main reason. IDK I think the hometown airline will probably force UA to focus on NRT. JL has more of a customer ba
138 LAXintl : I think SFO-Tokyo has been a long challenge for those not in the UA camp. For NW it was one of their smaller flights and even the DC-10 during its las
139 azjubilee : Not surprised… I hope UA can find success with the route.
140 Post contains images COSPN : Yea Hope a GUM-HND service can start soon .. Tokyo-Guam is one of the routes that will work year round..
141 LAXintl : While GUM certainly is a low risk and logical route, unless Haneda slots truly become plentiful its unlikely DOT would approve such flying as it hardl
142 Post contains images uberflieger : Congratulations United, definitely the right choice and probably the only HND route by a US carrier to possibly be profitable under current restricti
143 azjubilee : Shhh… don't tell Hawaiian about their success with HND![Edited 2014-03-01 15:09:42]
144 a/c dxer : Hawaiian will have the best case when the daytime slots become available.
145 azjubilee : Perhaps, but daytime slots aren't necessary to operate their schedule. The only advantage would be to move the HND flight a few hours earlier, to mat
146 jfk777 : United finally got what it wants. but will Haneda be all it wants it to be ? Its hard to make a flight crossing 7 time zones and 5,000 miles work wel
147 Post contains images uberflieger : how could I forget the 50th State where Japanese is the 3rd (in)official language
148 COSPN : HND slots should only be awarded to Airlines that currently serve NRT, other wise you are just "moving" across town not adding new service..
149 aznmadsci : Those are the first set of slots Japanese government gave when it allowed international flights arrive to HND. AC is the lone North American carrier
150 COSPN : CI has been flying HND-HNL for years so HND has always been "International"
151 jfk777 : The DOT and the CAB before always seem to accept what is offered by the counter part and not stress how BIG the USA is to that country's airlines. Ca
152 LAXintl : Well would you prefer US have no access to HND? When Japan reopened up HND to broad international services in 2010, it did so by allowing nighttime s
153 jfk777 : The Bermuda 2 is the deal that made all new airline service to London go to Gatwick, thus the term " Gatwicked" in 1977, Why should we have accepted
154 mercure1 : Original Bermuda agreement goes back to after World War II. The Bermuda 2 addendum was a great feat and greatly opened the door to more services, and
155 jfk777 : I am well aware of the opening to the southern US cities the Bermuda 2 opened but the deal President Carter agreed to restricted access to the world'
156 LAXintl : You also seem to forget UK airlines were also at LGW - BCal, Laker, Virgin Atlantic. There was no special discrimination focused against the US side.
157 jfk777 : Yes Brits Gatwicked all the "other" British Airlines in 1977 to protect then state owned BA. I am aware the LGW applied to both sides but why can't y
158 AirMailer : THIS! This seems like the easiest way to sort this out. AA, DL, & UA airlines will be fine without daytime slots at HND and so will JL & NH. J
159 LAXintl : Because it was not a raw deal. Its was a huge expansion in service between the nations and provided consumer benefits in greater carrier choice, new
160 Post contains images AirMailer : Thanks for the insight. In that case, I don't see what the problem is? If the powers that be in Japanese aviation & HND don't want US passengers
161 PHX787 : You guys forget that the slots allotted to NH and JL are usually "reserved" from the slots that they dole out to international carriers. They first lo
162 sr117 : Carriers from France, Germany and Canada didn't even touch their allotted nighttime slots because they were unfeasible. They were later rewarded with
163 PHX787 : Or, the amount of available slots is dried up, the MoT seems to like having the DL and UA abundance at NRT, and also preferring to ride the bull that
164 jfk777 : LHR has always been a mess but as demonstrated by the demand for LHR slots and willingness of airlines to pay $ 50,000,000.00 for a slot pair airline
165 STT757 : I think their proposal called for a three class 777, however the 787 is probably the more optimal choice.
166 PHX787 : I can't see anything larger than a 788. JL operates the 788 on it.
167 LAXintl : Proposal called for both. Hence my question.
168 klwright69 : Well, they now have a 3 class 777 free since SEA-NRT was dropped.
169 aznmadsci : That 772 is in the Hawaii configuration, not a premium-heavy configured plane.
170 psa1011 : I hope that's not the same 772 UA plans to use to SYD... More than 5 hours without PTV is rough.
171 sonomaflyer : If a 777 is used on the flight to HND, it will have PTVs. Whether its a two or three class a/c depends on whether UA considers the HND flight needs F
172 psa1011 : Interesting - how did UA ever end up with a fleet of 777's without PTV? Did they oder them this way, or did they modify aircraft that already had PTV
173 aznmadsci : I thought from the reshuffling of the 744s to SFO and ORD opened up a couple of 3-clase IPTE configured 772s, unless they decide to utilize the sCO 7
174 PHX787 : Proposal calls for both. Logic calls for the 788. Unless they can fill enough connecting pax from the SFO side.
175 a380787 : 3-class 772 in summer and 2-class 788 in winter ... probably the formula for success
176 psa1011 : Now that the comment/appeal period is closed, any thoughts on a UA announcement?
177 LAXintl : Well HA objected to the decision, so DOT needs to work through their points knock them off one by one and reaffirm the award. Some of the arguments ma
178 a380787 : Rehashing the same old tired arguments Fact is currently KOA doesn't have any international service outside of YVR, and zero to Asia. No proof that K
179 azjubilee : There's also no proof that UA's service on their own metal (they already have access via the JV with ANA) will increase competition in an already wel
180 LAXintl : Have to keep the high priced DC attorneys busy, so its part of the game to make life for your competitors harder whether you have a case or not. Plus
181 azjubilee : Exactly, wether people feel HAL has a strong case to argue or not is moot. It's their right, per the process to file an argument to the ruling. If I
182 LAXintl : And surely United and others will do the same it against HA when it wants something from the DOT in return.
183 azjubilee : Of course… and they already have.
184 psa1011 : As proactive as HA has been about expanding in Asia, they have yet to start anything from KOA to Japan, despite having access to every airport other t
185 azjubilee : And it's obvious why. Japan provides the highest count in foreign visitor arrivals to Hawaii, therefore the economies of scale can support a non-stop
186 diverdave : Actually it benefits the passengers who purchase the low yielding fares. David
187 mercure1 : Thing is, if Kona-Tokyo was such a hot market, HA could start service to Narita tomorrow if it desired. It could also add another HNL-Tokyo flight to
188 psa1011 : Not sure what is obvious here, but I think you're actually proving my point in terms of economies of scale. No other U.S. gateway has been awarded a
189 azjubilee : Yes, it's always great for the customer to get ridiculously low fares, but they're unsustainable and traditionally drive competition out of the marke
190 mercure1 : They already do 2 x a day from SFO, plus they have the daily ANA flight. HND adds something unique and importantly goes to the heart of ANA's network
191 azjubilee : Oh okay, so the question remains then, why couldn't they jut add another NRT flight as you suggest HAL does? Looks to me like SFO might be over serve
192 LAXintl : You seem to enjoy debating in circles. UA/NH have NRT well covered - 3x between them daily from SFO, plus add in the 1x daily from SJC. HND adds some
193 azjubilee : Not at all, just making the same argument towards UA with respect to the assertion that HAL should just start service to NRT instead. My point is tha
194 aznmadsci : Would the only way a US carrier may get one is if JL or NH uses a daytime slot to a US destination?
195 a380787 : Every HND operator except HA had paid their dues at NRT before ... what makes HA entitled to free HND access without first doing time at narita ? And
196 azjubilee : Seriously? This is business, not a popularity contest. Nearly every operator only had NRT as a choice when they started their operations to Tokyo or
197 BeachBoy : I've always supported HA's application because: 1. I strongly believe a KOA-HND flight will create more jobs and have a greater direct effect on more
198 a380787 : No ones cares that HA is less efficient operating to 2 airports instead of one The only thing that matters is (1) has HA paid their dues and serve NR
199 PHX787 : As much as I like UA being the winner here, I do think your argument about KOA not being able to sustain HND service doesn't have any standing. We sh
200 LAXintl : Correct. Equivalent number of slots would be given to Japanese carriers for the same destination nation.
201 Post contains links HNLPointShoot : I can say that the Hawaii Tourism Authority (HTA) counted 136,372 visitors from Japan to the Kona side of Big Island over 2012 according to their Ann
202 a380787 : I didn't argue KOA is unsustainable. My argument is that if PDEW were so large, why hasn't anyone attempted the route since JL dropped it ? Somehow t
203 psa1011 : I agree with these points - why hasn't HA/UA/DL attempted KOA-TYO if so many passengers fly it? We're not ignoring this, it's part of the whole story
204 a380787 : azjubilee said that, not me
205 azjubilee : I've already offered an explanation as to why other airlines could possibly not be interested. Here is is again… As for other airlines and why they
206 psa1011 : I love HA, and hope they will move on as well. With their extra aircraft, they might consider adding KOA-NRT, along with HNL-NRT (a market which can
207 azjubilee : Of course… I'll want them to move on from the issue AFTER the DOT makes its final ruling, then I hope they apply again given another opportunity. A
208 a/c dxer : What good business sense does it make for HA to start NRT? They have a ground handling contract and people in HND already. It is either HND or nothing
209 PHX787 : Not quite, u can get off at Shinagawa and go straight to Keikyu. And it's cheaper on Keikyu too. Yes but in terms of usage, only NRT and HND are grow
210 azjubilee : Actually, they do. They code-share with ANA from HND and ANA does the ground handling in Japan for HAL. Anyhow, HND actually works better for domesti
211 psa1011 : I doubt even HA will end up being so inflexible - if they want to transport people from Tokyo to Hawaii, they'll have to consider NRT as a perfectly
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
DOT Launches DCA Slot Proceeding posted Mon Aug 30 2010 11:35:03 by LAXintl
Emirates Launches A New Route - Kiev posted Thu Jul 11 2013 01:26:27 by behramjee
DOT Launches DCA Slot Competition posted Wed Nov 14 2012 06:01:32 by LAXintl
EasyJet Launches New Route To Iceland posted Wed Nov 9 2011 01:27:37 by santos
JAL Metal On Gimpo-Haneda Route? posted Thu Nov 10 2005 05:50:01 by Ktachiya
DOT Denies China Route To Delta posted Thu Feb 24 2005 16:08:57 by Delta fly boy
FR Launches New Route - Prestwick-Rome posted Sat Mar 6 2004 10:50:41 by Pe@rson
US DOT Brazil Proceeding 2013/2014 posted Sun Apr 14 2013 07:18:43 by LipeGIG
Delta Asks DOT To Move DTW-Haneda Slot To SEA posted Mon Jul 30 2012 15:15:35 by LAXintl
NK Launches Hidden Tax Sale, Finger In DOT's Eye posted Thu Jan 26 2012 11:36:22 by enilria