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DOT Launches Haneda Route Proceeding  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Posted (5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 28677 times:

As result of American Airlines vacating its its JFK-Haneda route and slots, and the subsequent interest by Hawaiian Air ( Hawaiian Applies For Kona-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 22 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) and United Airlines ( United Applies For SFO-Haneda (by LAXintl Oct 17 2013 in Civil Aviation) ) for replacement service, the DOT has decided to institute a formal route award proceeding.

DOT has established the following timeline:

Petitions: November 19, 2013
Answers to Petitions: November 22, 2013
Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 4, 2013
Replies: December 9, 2013

OST-2010-0018

=


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
211 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 28518 times:

I cant imagine anyone else even wants them.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1080 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28303 times:

I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route


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User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28160 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 2):
I'm surprised DL hasn't spoke up about a new route

I think DL knows there is next to zero chance they will be given these slots, and are picking their battles elsewhere.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 27109 times:

Due to Thanksgiving holiday, DOT adjusted the filing schedule back by 1-week.

Applications/Supplements/Amendments: November 26, 2013
Answers: December 9, 2013
Replies: December 16, 2013

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 26940 times:

UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 26827 times:
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Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

How much value does that add to UA vs basing that slot pairing at SFO? UA has the ability to funnel a lot more traffic from SFO than GUM.


User currently onlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 26569 times:

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 6):

That depends on what traffic UA is going for...
Tokyo HND originating vacation traffic to Guam could be more profitable than funneling SFO connecting traffic to HND.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 25989 times:

Updated applications were filed today.


Hawaiian Air made its case that the proposed Kona - Haneda service would maximize consumer benefit by linking Hawaii's second busiest Japan O&D pair for the first time with Tokyo close in airport. Carrier also states as the only US carrier that has consistently maintained its service to Haneda since first route award in 2010, its well positioned to further grow its Haneda portfolio at minimal risk while providing unique economic benefit to Hawaii communities.

Proposed schedule:
HA432 KOA-HND 1750-2200 332
HA431 HND-KOA 2355-1245 332


United Airlines reaffirmed its comments that its proposal by far provides the biggest consumer benefits by offering US carrier service from its SFO gateway to Haneda.
UA states, not only is SF-Tokyo one of the nations top international pairs, but the carrier is well positioned to capture feed from 33 California and Western US markets providing millions of US consumers easy access to HND.

Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

UA also states that with arrival of additional 787s in the fleet, the carrier will have the flexibility to adjust capacity seasonally if required.

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 978 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25683 times:

A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...


"She's a a cruel lover."...E. Diaz referring to United's B747-400.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25605 times:

As much business sense that it might make to transfer over one of the many GUM-NRT runs to HND, unfortunately that is not something the DOT will view as being very appealing.
Though such a flight would virtually provide zero commercial risk, and likely make the Guam flight even more desirable by folks in central Tokyo who might balk at venturing out to NRT if they dont need to.

I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25587 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
I thought it was interesting, UA brought up the 787 for the first time today. The 787 option gives them a means to reduce capacity if things are soft especially during the winter months. Though they still use the 777 being the core aircraft on the application as they know the DOT likes to look at capacity and using solely the 787 could harm UA's bid going against the larger capacity A332 then.

The problem with capacity is that it's meaningless in the absence of demand. If there is a 777 worth of demand 8 months of the year and a 787 worth of demand the other 4 months, running a 777 year round is no better (and is arguably worse). Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 25538 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Proposed schedule:
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 9):
A SFO-HND slot award for UA is long overdue...

Please please please be true!
I am so tired of having to leave US east coast on Saturday (or Sunday) morning so I can make a Monday (or Tuesday) meeting in Tokyo, which I have to do because all the UA flights seem to arrive at NRT at 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon. I've always wanted to land at ~10:00pm and to do so at Haneda would be SO much better than NRT.

The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25303 times:

UA has the highest chance, since they've never been in the HND market.

HA has the flight to HNL already and I highly doubt they'll get another one.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 984 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25233 times:

however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.


xx
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 25062 times:

Quoting usxguy (Reply 14):
however, landing after 9PM in Haneda is bad for most travelers -- I believe the trains don't run at that hour. My flight from Dubai landed around midnight and I had to pay about $105 USD for a taxi to the Hilton.

They extended the last run of the monorail till past midnight....I say landing past 10:30 or 11:00 is a bad idea.

The last run for the Yamanote loop line is around 1:15AM, but at that time, almost all of the trains are terminating at Shinagawa or Osaki stations, so unless their hotel is in Shinagawa, they're gonna have a hard time.
Honestly, the easiest last run on the Yamanote is around 12:30Am. but it may be packed. Most subways are done by 12:30AM.
There's talk to create an express train from HND to Tokyo Station but I don't see that happening until maybe right before the Olympics.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineSVA402 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 24761 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
UA needs GUM-HND a slot that was taken away from AirMicronesia in the 1970's when forced to relocated 727-100 services to NRT

If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 24126 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 11):
Demand is only price elastic to a point. As I think everyone flying to HND has found, there's a point after which it's simply impossible to put butts in the seats.

In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

As far using 787, Japan does definitely have seasonal swings, to being able to utilize something with 60'ish less seats during certain periods should help UA keep the cost better in line.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 23957 times:

Quoting SVA402 (Reply 16):
If that's our thinking, NWA's original 5th freedom routes were all out of HND and were forced to relocate to NRT. I say they should get all their slots back in HND....

I agree give back what you took away before awarding to others...GUM really needs the HND slots DL can use them also for GUM-HND and SPN-HND 97% is local traffic not conecting..


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 23592 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
Not only is the local demand from SFO significantly higher, the timings work much more decently versus the eastern hub attempts.

Thats partially why I see UA getting the flight.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 23221 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
In fairness, a California-Haneda link should do much better than things like JFK or DTW. I see loads for the ANA LAX-HND flight regularly, and it has higher LF than the LAX-NRT flight.

I agree. Judging from the onboard loads, the non-west coast flights hardly had a 777 worth of demand 1 day a year, let alone 8 months.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22721 times:

Any updates, and did any other airline petition for routes?

Quoting COSPN (Reply 18):
GUM really needs the HND slots

Hardly, deserving. GUM is a leisure destination with very little business traffic and tourists inconvenienced by a thirty extra minutes of trekking out to NRT is no big deal.
With thay being said, I really should add more flights during the overnight hours when NRT is shutdown due to curfew.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 22625 times:

GUM is the 2nd US destination outside HNL for Japnese, HND-GUM flights would be full. Problems is after midnite flights is lack of Public Transportaion at HND at those hours..

User currently offlineshengzhurou From China, joined May 2010, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 22373 times:

would UA drop the 2nd NRT flight UA852/853 so they can feed more pax to the HND flight if they get the slot? this flight is been operating by a 747 lately and it's hardly full.


Sheng Zhu Rou
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 22091 times:

Quoting dfambro (Reply 12):
The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day. I'll still have to depart NRT early evening for that.

You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlinecopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 22333 times:

Quoting dfambro (Reply 12):

The return schedule, though, is not so great. It's too late to get back to US east coast on the same day.

But you would be able to get back by early morning before the work day begins.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 26, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 22367 times:

Quoting briboy (Reply 24):
You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.

That's actually not a bad schedule, and it's a little later than many of the options from Tokyo to the midwest and east coast; it should be easy to catch any flight leaving YYZ at 1800 or later, which is just about all of the US terminators.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 22539 times:

Quoting briboy (Reply 24):
You could catch AC's new HND»YYZ service—it will leave HND at 17:40 arriving YYZ at 16:40. AC covers the US East Coast pretty well from YYZ, so no problem finding a reasonably quick connection. If you have Global Entry you can quickly clear US C&I in YYZ.

Thanks, that's a good suggestion which I had not considered!


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 22514 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 22):
GUM is the 2nd US destination outside HNL for Japnese,

I won't argue over volume on that route, but is it really necessary for a HND slot. For example, there is not a whole lot of leisure destinations being served from a similar slot-controlled airport like LHR.

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 23):
would UA drop the 2nd NRT flight UA852/853

The second NRT-SFO flight has becomes seasonal of late, not operating during the winter season. I would expect the second NRT-SFO flight to cease if UA wins HND-SFO. Now whether the existing NRT-SFO flight stays a 744 is debatable as NH offers a similar schedule.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22156 times:

But GUM can fill it year round with 777-200 348 pax, besides just want the HND slot that was taken when the flight was forced to NRT

User currently offlineirishayes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2087 posts, RR: 15
Reply 30, posted (4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 21704 times:

When will the replies be issued?


next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 21655 times:
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Quoting irishayes (Reply 30):
When will the replies be issued?

I think per the above answers are to be in by today, with replies by 12/16, although I'm not clear on who is replying/answering when.


User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 21647 times:

Regardless of whether UA gets the SFO slot they want, the biggest HND news is actually the daylight slot for AC's YYZ-HND, offering an extremely well-timed flight for east coast connections.

Instead of having to trek across the country to SEA, SFO, or LAX, east coast pax (including those business friendly airports like LGA and DCA) can have 1-stop access to HND, during convenient times (a minor issue of having to clear immigration at YYZ)


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 33, posted (4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 21429 times:
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Air Canada just launched Toronto - Haneda with daylight hours, wll USA airlines ever be allowed daylight hours to HND ?ANA just announced HND to LHR and CDG at regular NRT hours so why do the US airlines keep getting shafted at HND ?

User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 21339 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 33):
Air Canada just launched Toronto - Haneda with daylight hours, wll USA airlines ever be allowed daylight hours to HND ?ANA just announced HND to LHR and CDG at regular NRT hours so why do the US airlines keep getting shafted at HND ?

Japan recently went through a round of daylight HND slots, and US got none of it. Supposedly no more new HND daylight slot rounds until after Tokyo 2020

The only daytime flights of NorthAmerica to HND would be via YVR (NH) or YYZ (AC) - really convenient for Star travelers


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 35, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 21296 times:

I think there is no doubt that HND-KOA would work. There seems to be limitless demand to Hawaii from Tokyo and the slot timings work quite well for the Hawaii market.

SFO is much more of a risk. UA might end up with low load factors and low yields. However if it doesn't work, they could always petition to get the flight moved to GUM, which is almost guaranteed to be profitable on a 737-800. Whether or not the DOT cares about GUM is a different question.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineyra From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 21306 times:

So why did AA give up the rights to JFK-HND in the first place? That would seem an important route to keep especially post-merger with US.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 21152 times:
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Quoting a380787 (Reply 34):
Japan recently went through a round of daylight HND slots, and US got none of it. Supposedly no more new HND daylight slot rounds until after Tokyo 2020

The only daytime flights of NorthAmerica to HND would be via YVR (NH) or YYZ (AC) - really convenient for Star travelers

thoght there were 4 slots for USA airlines.


User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 21065 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 37):
thoght there were 4 slots for USA airlines.

sadly, none

Canada 1
China 2
England 2
France 2
Germany 2
Indonesia 1
Singapore 2
Thailand 1
Vietnam 1


User currently offlinesr117 From Mexico, joined Jun 2000, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 20832 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):
sadly, none

As of yet..

According to this, slots for the US are yet to be awarded:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irport-remains-the-main-hub-132103

Slots for the US routes are no doubt the most coveted and anticipated, since Japanese carriers receive the same amount of slots that foreign airlines get. So, 4 slots for US carriers means 4 slots for Japanese carriers.

It would be quite unfair to not award US slots as DL, HA and AA have been more or less serving HND regularly despite the awful times permitted, while Air Canada or most European airlines decided not to even try. I doubt that they should now be awarded with prime time slots while the incumbent US carriers are left operating at the undesirable times.

No doubt there's some sort of negotiations going on, maybe with regards with the slots that US carriers currently hold at NRT for Asia flights?


User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 20758 times:

In the course of the DOT's prosecution of these applications, Hawaiian has responded as follows in regard to their application.

December 9, 2013

Consolidated Answer of Hawaiian Airlines -

In contrast to other carriers, Hawaiian has fulfilled every promise that it has made to the Department and maximized the opportunity presented by the Department’s initial award. Indeed, Hawaiian has used the initial grant of Haneda slots as a platform to expand service throughout Japan, taking advantage of the Open Skies agreement to provide new, competitive service between the two countries. Hawaiian’s track record compels confidence that Hawaiian will make the most of the reallocated Haneda frequency.

In making its prior awards of Haneda slots, the Department has sought to promote “geographic diversity” by selecting “US-Haneda gateways” operated by different carriers across the country. The carriers awarded the slot pairs for mainland service, however, have largely squandered the opportunity granted by the Department. In particular, carriers operating gateways located in the eastern half of the country have failed. Within 15 months of starting service to Detroit, Delta applied to transfer the service to Seattle, and now American Airlines has returned the slot pair allocated for its Haneda-JFK service. Meanwhile, airlines operating west coast gateways have struggled, and airlines have experienced low load factors, repeatedly cancelled service and down-gauged their aircraft. Now, United proposes San Francisco service that is duplicative of existing service and duplicative of its own service from Narita International Airport to both SFO and the service of its Star Alliance partner All Nippon Airways to both SFO and nearby San Jose. United’s proposal urges the Department to insert more capacity into an already over-served market, where existing service is being withdrawn and down-gauged.

In this proceeding, the Department has the opportunity to reallocate a slot pair to a carrier that will maximize the public benefits by awarding a second frequency to Hawaiian. By selecting Hawaiian’s Kona application, the Department will facilitate the introduction of service to a new Haneda gateway and allow the introduction of service on the second largest O&D route without nonstop service from Tokyo. The resulting award will produce the most public benefits because it will stimulate Japanese-originating traffic and bring more Japanese visitors to the United States.

Counsel: Dow Lohnes, Jonathan Hill, 202-776-2000


User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20683 times:

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 40):
The resulting award will produce the most public benefits because it will stimulate Japanese-originating traffic and bring more Japanese visitors to the United States.

What a load of self-serving propaganda.

The only benefits of HND-KOA would be Japanese tourists and the state of Hawaii. Meanwhile, with a HND-SFO flight, both Japanese and Lower-48 pax would benefit immensely, not to mention economic benefits spreading across multiple states

HA is also stuck with A330 while UA has the potential to up gauge to 3-class 744 if the service proves successful


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 20578 times:

GUM is much bigger market than than KOA

User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 20515 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 42):
GUM is much bigger market than than KOA

I'm actually surprised that the Japanese like KOA more than OGG ... some cultural links ?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2878 posts, RR: 7
Reply 44, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 20340 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 43):
I'm actually surprised that the Japanese like KOA more than OGG ... some cultural links ?

I'm not sure they do. I think it has more to do with runway lengths. OGG is about 6900 feet, which is probably too short for OGG-TYO non-stop. KOA is longer. I suspect that has more to do with it.

I have an off the wall idea. Would ANC-HND work for AS? Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?


User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9071 posts, RR: 12
Reply 45, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 20297 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):
Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?

no. it would be about 3,000nm....which is the max range for the 800(WL) and about 200nms short for a 900ER(WL) without extra tanks.....which I believe AS doesn't have any of the extra tanks in its 900ER fleet.



yep.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 46, posted (4 months 1 week ago) and read 20066 times:

Quoting sr117 (Reply 39):
According to this, slots for the US are yet to be awarded:

The slots at HND IIRC were meant to go towards sAsian countries and the middle east. The USA already has a very large chunk of slots at HND.


I personally wish they'd just liberalize the damn airport and let the market figure out if building NRT was absolutely necessary, but alas, there is very little runway room at Haneda. Watching a takeoff immediately bank off to the right is quite entertaining to me.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19969 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
I personally wish they'd just liberalize the damn airport and let the market figure out if building NRT was absolutely necessary, but alas, there is very little runway room at Haneda.

In that scenario, Narita would immediately become the next Mirabel

Not to mention pure laissez faire leads to over-scheduling and slot squatting by the incumbents, increasing delays and reducing the chance of new airlines to arrive at HND.


User currently offlineirishayes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2087 posts, RR: 15
Reply 48, posted (4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19931 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):
I have an off the wall idea. Would ANC-HND work for AS? Could a 738 or 737-900ER do it?

It would be nonsensical given that there is little local demand from Alaska to Japan aside from cargo. If there was, then AS would have started a flight to NRT long before. HND doesn't stand a chance in this case.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 41):
What a load of self-serving propaganda.

Agreed. While HA presents a strong business case for the route, ultimately, United's is stronger.

http://upgrd.com/aerospace/us-dot-to...yo-haneda-route-awarding-soon.html



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User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19991 times:

Quoting irishayes (Reply 48):

It would be nonsensical given that there is little local demand from Alaska to Japan aside from cargo. If there was, then AS would have started a flight to NRT long before. HND doesn't stand a chance in this case.

Except that ANC-NRT is 3433mi, and I don't know any plane in their fleet that could handle that reliably without major payload penalty


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 50, posted (4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 19906 times:

Quoting yra (Reply 36):
So why did AA give up the rights to JFK-HND in the first place? That would seem an important route to keep especially post-merger with US.

They were losing their shirt on this route because the timing of the flights was bad, and they couldn't attract any fliers to the route. What was surprising was that they pulled out of JFK-Tokyo altogether rather than relaunch JFK-NRT.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

I don't see how UA does not get this award. The timing looks pretty good as going westbound they can attract fliers on a late bank into SFO to feed a 1920 flight, and coming back the flight gets in about 6pm, which would allow west coast fliers an easy connection back to their cities. However this doesn't really bode well for east coast connections, as the best option left for these passengers would be a redeye flight that they would have to wait hours for after clearing customs.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 51, posted (4 months 6 days ago) and read 19419 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 47):
Not to mention pure laissez faire leads to over-scheduling and slot squatting by the incumbents, increasing delays and reducing the chance of new airlines to arrive at HND.

Yup that's why they won't do it.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (4 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 19370 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 32):
Instead of having to trek across the country to SEA, SFO, or LAX, east coast pax (including those business friendly airports like LGA and DCA) can have 1-stop access to HND, during convenient times (a minor issue of having to clear immigration at YYZ)

At YYZ:

* outbound to HND from the USA there is a very quick short-cut Canadian passport control (never any line)
* inbound from HND to the USA there is a bypass of Canadian C&I. US bound passengers go directly to US C&I controls—and there is Global Entry. As noted, this opens easy access to LGA and DCA.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (4 months 22 hours ago) and read 18693 times:
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Any news on this yet?

User currently offlinedlflynhayn From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18201 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 44):

Kona(BigIsland) is what a lot of Hawaiians call real Hawaii,it definitely has more culture,land mass,different climates and also lots of untouch beaches,Maui is just another Waikiki but some people like that.

[Edited 2013-12-17 08:54:29]

User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18162 times:
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The replies by HA & UA are now up on regulations.gov. Both sides have interesting arguments, and I actually laughed while reading the reply by HA.

Anyone know how long the DOT might take to decide?


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1554 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18046 times:
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We should hear something by the end of January.

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 57, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18025 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 55):
Both sides have interesting arguments, and I actually laughed while reading the reply by HA.

What was so funny?


User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18092 times:
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Quoting azjubilee (Reply 57):
What was so funny?

HA couldn't help but poke holes in UA's illustration of how many "Asians" resided in the Bay Area and would use a flight to HND, describing this claim as racist and irrelevant.


User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18059 times:
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I am partial to the UA application, though - while HA makes the argument that JAL downguaged SFO to a 787, they seem to be ignoring the fact that KOA hasn't been able to sustain any flight to Japan, period. If HA was awarded the flight, I think it would be in jeopardy if JL/NH were to start their own. SFO, on the other hand, is big enough to sustain multiple carriers.

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 60, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18003 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 59):

I am partial to the UA application, though - while HA makes the argument that JAL downguaged SFO to a 787, they seem to be ignoring the fact that KOA hasn't been able to sustain any flight to Japan, period. If HA was awarded the flight, I think it would be in jeopardy if JL/NH were to start their own. SFO, on the other hand, is big enough to sustain multiple carriers.

Interesting. I read a fact filled document presenting Hawaiian's case with compelling arguments. It was UA that raised the race issue, which I agree with HAL, has no bearing on the application. Oh, scintilla is the word of the day. LOL.

KOA lost its JAL service as a broader piece of their restructuring during poor financial times, it wasn't for lack of Japanese passengers. There are numerous players in the HNL-Japan market, including HAL. I think if there was any competition HAL could easily hold its own, as it does now out of HNL.


User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17954 times:
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Quoting azjubilee (Reply 60):
KOA lost its JAL service as a broader piece of their restructuring during poor financial times, it wasn't for lack of Japanese passengers. There are numerous players in the HNL-Japan market, including HAL. I think if there was any competition HAL could easily hold its own, as it does now out of HNL.

I'm sure there's a market for Japan-KOA, I'm just not sure if the DOT would think that the mostly tourist market would require a flight from HND vs. NRT (the same could be said about GUM). Also, has there ever been talk that JL would restart the route with 787?


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 62, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17873 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 61):
I'm sure there's a market for Japan-KOA, I'm just not sure if the DOT would think that the mostly tourist market would require a flight from HND vs. NRT (the same could be said about GUM). Also, has there ever been talk that JL would restart the route with 787?

Not that I'm aware of. JAL has drastically reduced their flying to Hawaii and only seem focused on the KIX, NRT and NGO markets.

The mostly tourist market… do they not deserve the opportunity for convenience as well?

Purely based on the fact that UA doesn't currently serve HND with their own metal (despite the fact they serve HND via their JV with ANA) I think UA will get the award. Though, I believe HAL has a better case and argument, providing facts and a proven success in the HND market.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 63, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 17183 times:

In the past, arguments like inbound tourism is not something that appealed to the US DOT rightfully.

The DOT in its mandate is required to consider US consumer benefit, not foreign consumer benefits, nor things like benefits to supporting industries like hotels.

DOT also has mandate to promote competition, so unless DOT finds that the United proposal will not enhance competition due to its NH ATI-JV, the broader consumer benefit lies with the UA SFO proposal.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16814 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 63):

Ya well the DOTs past decisions ala AA and DL haven't really panned out as anticipated so their decisions should be taken with a grain of salt...

HA makes a solid argument. It has fulfilled all commitments and there is no reason to believe it wouldn't from Kona



hit it and quit it
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16737 times:
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Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 64):
Ya well the DOTs past decisions ala AA and DL haven't really panned out as anticipated so their decisions should be taken with a grain of salt...

HA makes a solid argument. It has fulfilled all commitments and there is no reason to believe it wouldn't from Kona

What makes Haneda tough is that you have to arrive after 2200 hours and depart before 0700, its a schedule only a Vampire could like.


User currently offlineBeachBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16385 times:

As most people on this forum think, I also feel UA will get it.

As a Hawaii-based traveler, I find it interesting that HA only wants to fly out of HND and has not established a presence at NRT too. At NRT, they could have better flight times and I think those flights would probably be more successful than a lot of the other flights they've started like TPE, SDJ/CTS, ICN (a FA once told me recently that there were only 22 pax on an ICN flt). I also wonder why HA doesn't do what Alaska and West Jet did for the West Coast/Vancouver-HI markets to the Japan-HI market by starting flights from NRT-KOA, NRT-OGG, and even NRT-LIH. I'm sure the State of HI would help them establish the appropriate facilities at OGG and LIH to accommodate those flights.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1097 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16332 times:

Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 66):
I'm sure the State of HI would help them establish the appropriate facilities at OGG and LIH to accommodate those flights.

The runways at both airports are not long enough to handle flights to Japan and plans to extend the runway at OGG have been shot down since 2000. A newer plan is in place, but construction has not started. As for LIH, don't count on it.


User currently offlineBeachBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 16231 times:

Quoting CV880 (Reply 67):
The runways at both airports are not long enough to handle flights to Japan

But they could still establish the routes w/ 767s and fly it NRT-LIH-HNL-NRT and NRT-OGG-HNL/KOA-NRT.


User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15740 times:
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Quoting BeachBoy (Reply 66):

As a Hawaii-based traveler, I find it interesting that HA only wants to fly out of HND and has not established a presence at NRT too.

Exactly. HA could've started KOA-NRT before expanding to BNE, ICN, etc.I think their case would be stronger if they could demonstrate a KOA-TYO route works at all.


User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 15641 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 69):
I think their case would be stronger if they could demonstrate a KOA-TYO route works at all.

Do you HONESTLY think that homework hasn't been done on this?

Man, the odd assumptions people have been making on these boards lately are just mind boggling   



hit it and quit it
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15580 times:
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Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 70):
Do you HONESTLY think that homework hasn't been done on this?

Is there any logical justification for HA not already operating KOA-NRT?

I read their submission, and yes it does appear there is a market, but frankly it's a bit strange that they've chosen to ignore it until now.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1097 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15526 times:

[quote=BeachBoy,reply=68]But they could still establish the routes w/ 767s and fly it NRT-LIH-HNL-NRT and NRT-OGG-HNL/KOA-NRT.

Not very cost effective for the airline, airport or Feds, in that airport facilities have to be updated with immigration/customs and have to be staffed....doesn't make sense for one or two flights per day with that type of routing. Kind of makes HNL a technical stop or one that is pointless due to lack of available seats.

Another factor was/is fear of foreign pests from direct flights into Maui wreaking havoc on Haleakala Nat'l Park as well as local agriculture.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 73, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15011 times:

A little birdy told me UA pretty much has this one made. Unless HA makes one final push.


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 65):
What makes Haneda tough is that you have to arrive after 2200 hours and depart before 0700, its a schedule only a Vampire could like.

Depends on how you want to deal with aircraft utilization

You can easily arrive HND at 7am but leave at 10pm, thus being convenient from the Tokyo standpoint.


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 3
Reply 75, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14609 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 74):
You can easily arrive HND at 7am but leave at 10pm, thus being convenient from the Tokyo standpoint.

Convenient for Japanese airlines for sure, but not exactly for foreign airlines as they will rack up parking fees on top of the usual airport user fees.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14586 times:

Quoting yra (Reply 36):
So why did AA give up the rights to JFK-HND in the first place? That would seem an important route to keep especially post-merger with US.

The route was apparently loosing a ton of money. Its important but everything has a price and this apparently wasn't worth it. Passengers can still fly JAL from NYC still and get AA miles.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 77, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14460 times:

HAL serving HND and not NRT is simple. They can command fare premiums from HND, which they could not from NRT. Running a split operation would be silly, cost prohibitive and a waste of resources.

User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14347 times:

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 71):
Is there any logical justification for HA not already operating KOA-NRT?

My understanding of why HA doesn't fly to NRT is that they haven't been able to obtain any slots there that work for them. Not sure if that's correct, though.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 79, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13569 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 78):
My understanding of why HA doesn't fly to NRT is that they haven't been able to obtain any slots there that work for them. Not sure if that's correct, though.

There is a growing abundance of NRT slots.

The airport has done a good job growing its capacity from around 220,000 a decade ago to 270,000 movement slots in 2012 and plans to go to 300,000 in 2015.

This is a reason NRT has seen several LCC set up base due to ease in slots allocation.

I'm certain if HA wanted NRT, it would be there without too much effort.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 80, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13478 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
A little birdy told me UA pretty much has this one made.

Does anyone else have a credible bid?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 79):
This is a reason NRT has seen several LCC set up base due to ease in slots allocation.

Well, there are loads of slots and the LCCs aren't getting into HND any time soon, where they (and everyone else) really wants to be.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 81, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13219 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 80):
Does anyone else have a credible bid?

Uh yeah… the other bidder is Hawaiian.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 78):
My understanding of why HA doesn't fly to NRT is that they haven't been able to obtain any slots there that work for them. Not sure if that's correct, though.

Again… HAL serving HND and not NRT is simple. They can command fare premiums from HND, which they could not from NRT. Running a split operation would be silly, cost prohibitive and a waste of resources.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 82, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13183 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 81):
Uh yeah… the other bidder is Hawaiian.

I don't really view it as a credible bid, especially since HA doesn't even serve the mainline US from KOA. Seems like a hail mary to me...and benefits Japanese consumers almost exclusively.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 83, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13175 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 81):
Again… HAL serving HND and not NRT is simple. They can command fare premiums from HND, which they could not from NRT. Running a split operation would be silly, cost prohibitive and a waste of resources.

I think if HA were actually serious about serving KOA from Japan, they would rather have commanded some fare instead of no fare. UA for instance, could have chosen to cut Japan-Hawaii altogether because it didn't have access to HND, but chose to continue operating NRT-HNL; I believe a large portion of this is O&D, but I will admit I am not sure. DL has made NRT & HND work, to some extent.

I still think HA is an awkward position, when it could have chosen to get at least a little foothold in the TYO-KOA market as the sole operator. It would be one thing if intense competition over time made the route into something not feasible (e.g., UA NRT-SEA, DL NRT-SFO). In this case, however, other than HA's presented stats, evidence of a demand in the form of an actual existing flight to Japan would help them build a stronger case.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 84, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13107 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 82):
I don't really view it as a credible bid, especially since HA doesn't even serve the mainline US from KOA. Seems like a hail mary to me...and benefits Japanese consumers almost exclusively.

What does serving the US Mainland nonstop from KOA have to do with anything? By the way KOA-LAX and KOA-OAK service starts this summer. With the numerous flights from KOA to HNL and OGG, HAL provides one-stop service to the entire network. As for who actually benefits from the route, does it really matter? Wether it's American flyers or American interests in Hawaii that will benefit, the point is that Americans still benefit. With your logic, UA better not carry any Japanese, should they win the authority. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the merits of the bid.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
I think if HA were actually serious about serving KOA from Japan, they would rather have commanded some fare instead of no fare. UA for instance, could have chosen to cut Japan-Hawaii altogether because it didn't have access to HND, but chose to continue operating NRT-HNL; I believe a large portion of this is O&D, but I will admit I am not sure. DL has made NRT & HND work, to some extent.

I still think HA is an awkward position, when it could have chosen to get at least a little foothold in the TYO-KOA market as the sole operator. It would be one thing if intense competition over time made the route into something not feasible (e.g., UA NRT-SEA, DL NRT-SFO). In this case, however, other than HA's presented stats, evidence of a demand in the form of an actual existing flight to Japan would help them build a stronger case.

Interesting point. However I would imagine that the individuals in charge have crunched the numbers and a split operation at NRT and HND doesn't make sense. Both DL and UA have economies of scale at NRT to spread the costs. HAL wouldn't have that ability.

In the end, I obviously want HAL to receive the award and be successful with the route. Unfortunately, I think UA will end up getting it, mainly because they're odd man out with their own metal to HND at the moment.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13067 times:

KOA are you kidding!!! just give it to Guam for the GUM-HND flight they forced to move NRT in 1977 UA will gladly fly a 777 in the daytime slot Continental Airmicronesia had in 1977-78 ...big loss for Guam to have the HND flight taken away...

User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13010 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 85):

Ya, no. GUM is not a topic of discussion at this point



hit it and quit it
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 87, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12996 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 84):
What does serving the US Mainland nonstop from KOA have to do with anything?

Nothing really--seasonal, weekly OAK/LAX service notwithstanding--but it underlines the fact that HA's offering would be close to 100% local, and close to 100% point of sale Japan.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 84):
. As for who actually benefits from the route, does it really matter?

Yes. DOT has repeatedly made it clear that it considers the greatest benefit to the US consumer.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 84):
With your logic, UA better not carry any Japanese, should they win the authority.

It's not my logic. It's DOT precedent. They could have awarded HND to Hawaii/Micronesia many times by now, and those routes would have been far more profitable than instead giving AA and DL multiple opportunities to try their hubs on the mainland. Even with a half empty plane, a mainland award would benefit easily 10x as many US customers as HNDKOA, never mind the network benefits.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 88, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12919 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
I think if HA were actually serious about serving KOA from Japan,

For the record, that wasn't actually me. My husband (psa1011) posted that, not having realized that he was was signed on my account.

However, I will point out that getting to NRT from Tokyo is time-consuming, but then again, so is HND. And while NRT has the NEX train, HND has a monorail that you have to get to first on the subway, necessitating at least one train transfer (possibly across separate systems). And if you are going to Hawaii, you probably have to do all that with a large suitcase. The big advantage to HND is that the NEX is expensive, while the subway/monorail to HND is not as expensive.

So service to HND is really not absolutely essential.

Furthermore, given that it's mostly a leisure market, what's wrong with connection at HNL or OGG? It's not far out of the way and the inter-island flight takes 35 minutes (not even). HND makes sense for premium-heavy business-heavy routes where time is of the essence. It makes no sense for a 763/A332/788 to KOA.


User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 978 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12919 times:

Does anyone know when the DOT is going to announce who the vacant HND slot goes to...HA or UA?


"She's a a cruel lover."...E. Diaz referring to United's B747-400.
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12895 times:

well sorry to be off topic but HND-GUM should be returned to GUM before routes like HND-DXB that did not serve HND in 1977 like Continental Micronesia...and KOA-HND was HA operating that route in 1977 ???

[Edited 2014-01-20 02:59:42]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 91, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12730 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 85):
KOA are you kidding!!! just give it to Guam for the GUM-HND flight they forced to move NRT in 1977 UA will gladly fly a 777 in the daytime slot Continental Airmicronesia had in 1977-78 ...big loss for Guam to have the HND flight taken away...

  
I really don't care about the loss, as everyone had to move to NRT, but from a simple risk point of view a GUM route while not sexy would be very low risk venture.
Though not much point focusing on it as UA obviously did not apply for it knowing it would not hold a chance.

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 89):

Does anyone know when the DOT is going to announce who the vacant HND slot goes to...HA or UA?

Murmurs were late January.

Now that the DOT dismissed Delta's attempt to muddy the waters, it can weigh move forward with the HA vs UA proposals.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12391 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 88):
And if you are going to Hawaii, you probably have to do all that with a large suitcase.

Who lugs suitcases around Japan when you can just Takkyubin them?

HND is more convenient for much of Tokyo as well as Yokohama, but lugging luggage is not a real consideration for either.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12277 times:

CI was allowed to stay at HND and fly HND-HNL then allowed to fly NRT-GUM and KE flies NRT-GUM , so would be nice to get the slot returned, first ..

User currently offlinektachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12234 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 93):
CI was allowed to stay at HND and fly HND-HNL then allowed to fly NRT-GUM and KE flies NRT-GUM , so would be nice to get the slot returned, first

Well...... that was much more political than just slots. It was because of the relationship between the PRC (China) and ROC (Taiwan) and the extreme restrictions they put on not letting them use the same airport. Of course this has been relaxed over the past few years.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineanonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 604 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12136 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 93):
CI was allowed to stay at HND and fly HND-HNL then allowed to fly NRT-GUM and KE flies NRT-GUM , so would be nice to get the slot returned, first ..

As stated the last time you griped about this exact point, CI wasn't "allowed to stay at HND", CI (and BR) weren't "allowed to move to NRT" because of relations between the PRC and ROC.



This is my signature.
User currently offlineJA743J From Japan, joined Sep 2013, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11983 times:

Quoting briboy (Reply 92):
Who lugs suitcases around Japan when you can just Takkyubin them?

It's not like shipping the suitcase beforehand is worry freee solution. First, they have to take your bag two days before the departure. Also, the latest they'll arrange for pick up is at seven which many Japanese are still not home yet.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 88):
However, I will point out that getting to NRT from Tokyo is time-consuming, but then again, so is HND. And while NRT has the NEX train, HND has a monorail that you have to get to first on the subway, necessitating at least one train transfer (possibly across separate systems). And if you are going to Hawaii, you probably have to do all that with a large suitcase. The big advantage to HND is that the NEX is expensive, while the subway/monorail to HND is not as expensive.

I think this is very true. I think the convenience of HND is way overrated here in A-net due to the fact that almost all members visit Tokyo but not live there. Since KOA flight would be filled by Japanese tourists, you really have to look from Tokyoites’ views. Reaching HND by rail is a pain if you have a suitcase. Also, there are far more buses available to NRT than HND which means hustle free travel. Also, parking options are better in NRT which would be ideal for families.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11827 times:

Yes that is why slots should NEVER be given to an airline that wont serve NRT as well as HND UA will serve HND and NRT from SFO and HND and NRT from Guam... HA does not serve NRT so should never be considered for a HND slot..

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16927 posts, RR: 48
Reply 98, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11814 times:

Quoting JA743J (Reply 96):
I think this is very true. I think the convenience of HND is way overrated here in A-net due to the fact that almost all members visit Tokyo but not live there

Passenger preference and behavior overwhelmingly points to a preference for HND over NRT, all other things equal.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 99, posted (2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11686 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 98):
Passenger preference and behavior overwhelmingly points to a preference for HND over NRT, all other things equal.

The trouble is that passengers as a whole don't necessarily have the same preferences as beach passengers.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 100, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11319 times:

I think the point of HA using HND instead of NRT is proper fleet utilization. That plane can turn at HND, leave the next morning and be ready for a second utilization to the states within no time at all.

I also think HA's incentive is the fact that HND is in the city. They want their customers to be closer to home (Hawaii has so many Japanese people there)

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 80):
Does anyone else have a credible bid?
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 81):
Uh yeah… the other bidder is Hawaiian.

But the issue is profitability. For both the airline operating the slot AND the airport receiving their own cut of the money. UA can charge their normal UA fares for this route and pretty much have a guarantee that onward connections will be met on both ends. That's pretty much why I think that the DOT is going to give UA the slot



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 101, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11334 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 98):
Passenger preference and behavior overwhelmingly points to a preference for HND over NRT, all other things equal.

Not from what I've heard and read. There's a lot of grumblings about the nighttime slots and the prices.

But otherwise, being closer to the city has the highest benefit that the pax like. if you're willing to wait in the cold for a few hours for the train, and pony up a little cash, then you're good to go!



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 102, posted (2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11260 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 100):
But the issue is profitability. For both the airline operating the slot AND the airport receiving their own cut of the money. UA can charge their normal UA fares for this route and pretty much have a guarantee that onward connections will be met on both ends. That's pretty much why I think that the DOT is going to give UA the slot

It remains to be seen if UA can make HND work profitably. AA couldn't and DL is struggling. HA is the only one that has served HND consistently from the start and made money doing it at the same time. There will be no onward connections in HND due to the arrival time so UA can't guarantee connections, so that argument is moot as well. If the DOT awards UA with these slots it will be based on the fact UA is currently not serving HND with their own metal. It certainly won't be on the merits of the poor track records left by AA and DL.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 103, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10657 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 102):
AA couldn't and DL is struggling

DL is struggling because of the time allotted to them, and the lack of viable connection partners in HND.

AA is struggling because they decided their best bet would be JFK to HND, where they struggled diplomatically with JL and also that route pairing is much healthier out of NRT.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 102):
It remains to be seen if UA can make HND work profitably.

I'll concede that, but NH does have a number of morning slots. I don't know why u can't argue that.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 102):
If the DOT awards UA with these slots it will be based on the fact UA is currently not serving HND with their own metal.

If that truly is the case then I am going to doubt that UA will make it work.

But again there is no guarantee that KOA will work for HA either. Almost all of the Japanese who live in Hawaii are around Honolulu.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32173 posts, RR: 72
Reply 104, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 10654 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 103):
AA is struggling because they decided their best bet would be JFK to HND, where they struggled diplomatically with JL and also that route pairing is much healthier out of NRT.

AA struggled because of the slot time. There is absolutely a market for JFK-HND, if it could operate at commercially reasonable times.



a.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 105, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10573 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 104):
AA struggled because of the slot time. There is absolutely a market for JFK-HND, if it could operate at commercially reasonable times.

Then back to the argument above: Who is being a pain in the butt, the MOT, DOT, or AA?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2908 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10477 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 105):
Who is being a pain in the butt

That economy passenger stuck in 10-abreast 777.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 107, posted (2 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10468 times:

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 106):
That economy passenger stuck in 10-abreast 777.

  

So they couldn't sell enough seats, huh.

I wonder if they could make a 787 work on a dayshift flight.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 108, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 103):
DL is struggling because of the time allotted to them, and the lack of viable connection partners in HND.

AA is struggling because they decided their best bet would be JFK to HND, where they struggled diplomatically with JL and also that route pairing is much healthier out of NRT.

All US carriers are subject to the same times, including UA, should they get the slots. Even JL and NH are using the late evening slots for their US flights. Those times are not conducive to onward connections upon late evening arrival for anyone. In other words, everyone is in the same boat and it's clear only the Hawaii flights have been a wild success.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 103):
I'll concede that, but NH does have a number of morning slots. I don't know why u can't argue that.

That's great for NH, but UA won't be getting NH's daytime slots for their proposed SFO-HND flight, so your argument is moot and therefore not arguable.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 103):
If that truly is the case then I am going to doubt that UA will make it work

Which is exactly my point regarding setting UA up for an uphill battle, given the issues AA and DL have both had with their flights at the same times UA would be operating theirs.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 103):
But again there is no guarantee that KOA will work for HA either. Almost all of the Japanese who live in Hawaii are around Honolulu.

Of course there's no guarantee. It makes no matter where the Japanese live in Hawaii, that's not the point. The point is that the second most visited place in Hawaii by Japanese visitors is Kona/Hawaii Island. Based on that, the other marketing research and the success of the HNL-HND flight, HAL sees the potential in the market.

[Edited 2014-01-29 07:32:43]

User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10295 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 108):

Of course there's no guarantee. It makes no matter where the Japanese live in Hawaii, that's not the point. The point is that the second most visited place in Hawaii by Japanese visitors is Kona/Hawaii Island. Based on that, the other marketing research and the success of the HNL-HND flight, HAL sees the potential in the market.

The HA flight only benefit the Japanese tourists and the business owners in Hawaii, which won't help any part of the rest of the country. And they only have the capacity to fly in 18 premium seats (which are ancient recliner crap)

UA flight can benefit vast chunk of Lower 48 states, and has 48 premium seats (all flat bed). The revenue potential of the flight (plus total GDP contribution to the nation) is far higher. UA also has the flexibility to seasonally change the plane down to the 788 or up to the 744, something that HA totally lacks (well technically down to the 763 but might be stretching the range).


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 110, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10253 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 109):
The HA flight only benefit the Japanese tourists and the business owners in Hawaii, which won't help any part of the rest of the country. And they only have the capacity to fly in 18 premium seats (which are ancient recliner crap)

UA flight can benefit vast chunk of Lower 48 states, and has 48 premium seats (all flat bed). The revenue potential of the flight (plus total GDP contribution to the nation) is far higher. UA also has the flexibility to seasonally change the plane down to the 788 or up to the 744, something that HA totally lacks (well technically down to the 763 but might be stretching the range).

Last time I checked, Hawaii was a part of the USA and any economic impact, large or small is good for the country. True, UA would be able to provide a larger amount of feed to the HND flight, there's no argument there. The flexibility for UA is just fluff on their application. DL started out with 744s on both their flights, touting their flexibility. Now they're flown with the smallest gauge they've got. So what?

The product offering isn't even worth discussion because that is irrelevant.


User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 110):
DL started out with 744s on both their flights, touting their flexibility. Now they're flown with the smallest gauge they've got. So what?

First let's rule out midwest and east coast - none of those can work.

Second, DL's flights are out of SEA and LAX now - the feed of BOTH hubs combined (excluding AS) is smaller than UA's hub at SFO.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 110):
and any economic impact, large or small is good for the country.

It's good for that state and that state only. The benefit that will trickle to the rest of the nation is so miniscule it's not even worth counting. Bottom line is HA benefits Hawaii while UA benefits Lower 48.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 110):
The product offering isn't even worth discussion because that is irrelevant.

It's absolutely relevant because it's the customer mix - businessmen trying to make deals and generate GDP, or a flying greyhound bus.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 112, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 111):
First let's rule out midwest and east coast - none of those can work.

Second, DL's flights are out of SEA and LAX now - the feed of BOTH hubs combined (excluding AS) is smaller than UA's hub at SFO.

True, but DL is banking on their AS feed, so that is relevant to their operation, therefore relevant to the discussion. There's no doubt that UAs feed is great, again, nobody is arguing that. The bottom line is that even with SOME feed and the huge O&D, the west coast cities too, have struggled. It all boils down to the marketing times.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 111):
It's good for that state and that state only. The benefit that will trickle to the rest of the nation is so miniscule it's not even worth counting. Bottom line is HA benefits Hawaii while UA benefits Lower 48.

Yes Hawaii is small. You say UA will benefit the lower 48. That is such a broad stroke to paint with because I'd be willing to bet money that UA will not be carrying passengers from all of the lower 48 states on each of their HND flights. The big winner, if UA gets the slots will be the city of San Fancisco and perhaps the bigger feed markets to SFO. Not the fine citizens of Birmingham or Biloxi.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 111):
It's absolutely relevant because it's the customer mix - businessmen trying to make deals and generate GDP, or a flying greyhound bus.

HAL is hardly a greyhound bus. It's not a business class designed to carry business passengers and does need improvement, but it's hardly a greyhound bus. Either way, the DOT isn't going to pick the airline for the route based on the kind of seats that they'll find on the plane. Oh… the 763 has plenty of range to get to HND.

It's clear you want UA to get the slot. I want HA to get the slot. Both airlines have good cases against their desire for the routes. We'll leave it at that.

[Edited 2014-01-29 09:06:57]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 113, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9847 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 108):
That's great for NH, but UA won't be getting NH's daytime slots for their proposed SFO-HND flight, so your argument is moot and therefore not arguable.

back back back back it up

I'm talking about onward connections on NH flights codeshared by UA.

Domestic, International, what have you.

There's a lot of outbounds in the morning and then a lot of inbounds that soon follow. Mostly for business type but these are fully capable of handing UA connections.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9870 times:

GUM is part of the USA, they dont pay US Taxes, but supported by US taxpayer so the more $$ GUM makes on its own is less that the US has to send to Guam... GUM-Japan much bigger market than KOA

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 110):
Last time I checked, Hawaii was a part of the USA and any economic impact, large or small is good for the country. True, UA would be able to provide a larger amount of feed to the HND flight, there's no argument there. The flexibility for UA is just fluff on their application. DL started out with 744s on both their flights, touting their flexibility. Now they're flown with the smallest gauge they've got. So what?

The product offering isn't even worth discussion because that is irrelevant.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 115, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 113):
back back back back it up

I'm talking about onward connections on NH flights codeshared by UA.

Domestic, International, what have you.

There's a lot of outbounds in the morning and then a lot of inbounds that soon follow. Mostly for business type but these are fully capable of handing UA connections.

UA is applying for AA's old slot, which operates at the horrible evening hours. Even if UA wanted a morning slot, they're not currently available yet for US carriers. I'm not sure exactly what you want me to back up. The facts are there.

Assuming UA gets the slot, it won't have onward connections from HND with convenient timings, except for a few red-eyes. No domestic. They'd have to spend several hours in the airport until morning, when the first NH flights leave. Returning to the US however, there will be lots of opportunity for NH to feed the assumed UA flight.


User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9729 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 115):
UA is applying for AA's old slot, which operates at the horrible evening hours.

AA JFK-HND 1810 - 2215
AA HND-JFK 0640 - 0515

UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

It doesn't look identical to me. AA arrived HND late, *and* departed early, a double whammy. UA is only bad at the westbound arrival.

UA's schedule is also perfect for the same plane to do the closed loop circuit - 1:50 turn at HND and 1:30 at SFO.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 117, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 116):
AA JFK-HND 1810 - 2215
AA HND-JFK 0640 - 0515

UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

It doesn't look identical to me. AA arrived HND late, *and* departed early, a double whammy. UA is only bad at the westbound arrival.

UA's schedule is also perfect for the same plane to do the closed loop circuit - 1:50 turn at HND and 1:30 at SFO.

Ah yes, I had forgotten that AA left in the early morning hours for the return to the States. The point remains however, that UA will have no NH feed for onward connections from HND except for a few red-eyes.


User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9631 times:
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Quoting azjubilee (Reply 117):
Ah yes, I had forgotten that AA left in the early morning hours for the return to the States. The point remains however, that UA will have no NH feed for onward connections from HND except for a few red-eyes.

Which is why anyone originating in or connecting through SFO can take one of several SFO-NRT flights that leave earlier in the day - something which HA cannot offer from Hawaii 


User currently offlinecivetfive From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9373 times:

I think this is going to end up with SFO, and will result in UA cutting the 2nd NRT frequency.

I can't imagine JL will love this, but its their only SFO service, so they'll probably have to stick it out. Does anyone happen to know the passenger profile that JL carriers to SFO? Is it soley Tokyo, or a fair amount of domestic and international connections? Which contracts does this service, and how does it do on the SFO O&D side?


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1922 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 111):
Second, DL's flights are out of SEA and LAX now - the feed of BOTH hubs combined (excluding AS) is smaller than UA's hub at SFO.

Why exclude AS feed? Is that the way it goes? It seems just as likely to me that DL and AS will be partners (or one company) in 5 years as that UA will be in business.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 121, posted (2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8837 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 115):
UA is applying for AA's old slot, which operates at the horrible evening hours. Even if UA wanted a morning slot, they're not currently available yet for US carriers. I'm not sure exactly what you want me to back up. The facts are there.

Oh I stand corrected then.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 116):
AA JFK-HND 1810 - 2215
AA HND-JFK 0640 - 0515
Quoting a380787 (Reply 116):
UA875 SFO-HND 1920-2210 772
UA876 HND-SFO 0005-1750 772

2210 arrival isn't too bad at all.

And the departure at 0005 is not too bad either- one would expect to get to the airport at 11PM, well before the last trains leave the station.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 116):
It doesn't look identical to me. AA arrived HND late, *and* departed early, a double whammy. UA is only bad at the westbound arrival.

Like I said it's not too bad at all...10PM arrival, getting through customs and bags = 11PM At the latest in the train station. Trains stop service between 12AM and 1AM.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (2 months 21 hours ago) and read 8353 times:
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Any news? I believe it's been four months since UA/HA applied, and about two months since final submissions were due. How long can it possibly take the DOT? It's not as they're lifting flight restrictions to Cuba 

User currently offlinea/c dxer From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

Still nothing on this and it is almost March. Wonder what the holdup is?

User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (1 month 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7315 times:
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Quoting a/c dxer (Reply 123):

Same question here. It's been over four months since proceedings began...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 125, posted (1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7218 times:

DOT is helping out..

Neither HA or UA wants to start the flight in the shoulder period. Both were looking at a summer start at earliest.

Later the DOT decides, the later the winning carrier can start without need to apply for start-up deferral.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 126, posted (1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6856 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 125):
Later the DOT decides, the later the winning carrier can start without need to apply for start-up deferral.

So basically, HA, UA, and the DOT are playing the waiting game....



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineBeachBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6958 times:

The delay makes me think that the DOT is giving serious consideration to HA's proposed KOA-HND service.
If UA's SFO-HND case was a slam dunk, which is what a lot of people on here argued (and which I thought myself), I feel the decision would have already been made. Or it could just be a result of the deadline being around the holidays.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 128, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6586 times:

Winner is....

United SFO-HND


Details to follow...



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 129, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

DOT says it tentatively selects United because -

1) Introduce new entrant at HND
2) Offer direct competition against existing foreign carrier on SFO-HND route
3) SFO gateway enhance inter-gateway competition between US carriers (versus DL @ LAX & SEA)
4) UA SFO offers convenient connection to markets that currently do not have HND access especially in Western US
5) SFO and West Coast offer substantially larger traffic base.
6) Best benefit the US traveling public

Order becomes final after expiry of appeal process.

Order 2014-2-23



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinepsa1011 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6451 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):

How long is the appeals period?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 131, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6390 times:

10-calender days to say one is seeking to object, followed by 7-day period to actually file the pleading.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinea380787 From Canada, joined Jul 2013, 963 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6361 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):
DOT says it tentatively selects United because -

1) Introduce new entrant at HND
2) Offer direct competition against existing foreign carrier on SFO-HND route
3) SFO gateway enhance inter-gateway competition between US carriers (versus DL @ LAX & SEA)
4) UA SFO offers convenient connection to markets that currently do not have HND access especially in Western US
5) SFO and West Coast offer substantially larger traffic base.
6) Best benefit the US traveling public

Order becomes final after expiry of appeal process.

Yes ... finally, justice and equality is restored

Previously it made no sense - the largest mainland TPAC gateway by a US carrier was exactly the one lacking HND access.

Oneworld is most disadvantaged by this - their only mainland HND gateway (SFO) has the worst connections compared to Skyteam at LAX/SEA and Star at LAX/SFO


User currently offlineDTWHKG From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6074 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 132):
Oneworld is most disadvantaged by this - their only mainland HND gateway (SFO) has the worst connections compared to Skyteam at LAX/SEA and Star at LAX/SFO

Agreed. This may force JL to go back to flying SFO-NRT.


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 134, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6061 times:

Congrats United. Let see how they do at Haneda.

User currently offlineJamake1 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 978 posts, RR: 2
Reply 135, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6049 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 132):
Yes ... finally, justice and equality is restored

Previously it made no sense - the largest mainland TPAC gateway by a US carrier was exactly the one lacking HND access.

  

Totally concur...

This is great news!



"She's a a cruel lover."...E. Diaz referring to United's B747-400.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 136, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

So any guesses on 787 or 777? Proposal suggest either could be used depending on demand.

I'd say if they can spare 787s by late summer that would be safer and more logical choice.

Also DOT gave UA some extra leeway in start-up by using the IATA summer schedule of March 30th as counting marker before the dormancy clock begins. So UA will have till as late as September to commence the route.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 137, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5858 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 128):
United SFO-HND

Spot on, not surprised.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):
1) Introduce new entrant at HND

That's the main reason.

Quoting DTWHKG (Reply 133):
Agreed. This may force JL to go back to flying SFO-NRT.

IDK I think the hometown airline will probably force UA to focus on NRT. JL has more of a customer base than UA (and it appears to be much easier to get miles with JL than with UA)



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 138, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5861 times:

I think SFO-Tokyo has been a long challenge for those not in the UA camp.

For NW it was one of their smaller flights and even the DC-10 during its last days, while DL has run it on the 767, and now opted to drop it completely.
For JAL, it has continued to shrink gauge, along with moving the flight to HND in 2010 and most recently down to the 787.

Will be interesting, but come summer out of 6 Tokyo flights from the Bay Area 5 will be on Star.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 139, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5560 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 128):
Winner is....

United SFO-HND


Details to follow...

Not surprised… I hope UA can find success with the route.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

Yea   Hope a GUM-HND service can start soon .. Tokyo-Guam is one of the routes that will work year round..

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 141, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

While GUM certainly is a low risk and logical route, unless Haneda slots truly become plentiful its unlikely DOT would approve such flying as it hardly provides US consumers broad benefits.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineuberflieger From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5177 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 128):
Winner is....United SFO-HND

Congratulations United, definitely the right choice and probably the only HND route by a US carrier to possibly be profitable under current restrictions      

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):
2) Offer direct competition against existing foreign carrier on SFO-HND route

while true, this one made me    because...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 138):
come summer out of 6 Tokyo flights from the Bay Area 5 will be on Star

the one and only foreign carrier on SFO-HND has a JBA with the one and only US carrier competing with *A in the Bay Area to Tokyo market



passionate about The New American :)
User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 143, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 142):
Congratulations United, definitely the right choice and probably the only HND route by a US carrier to possibly be profitable under current restrictions


Shhh… don't tell Hawaiian about their success with HND!

[Edited 2014-03-01 15:09:42]

User currently offlinea/c dxer From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5020 times:

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 143):
Shhh… don't tell Hawaiian about their success with HND!

Hawaiian will have the best case when the daytime slots become available.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3799 posts, RR: 28
Reply 145, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5005 times:

Quoting a/c dxer (Reply 144):
Hawaiian will have the best case when the daytime slots become available.

Perhaps, but daytime slots aren't necessary to operate their schedule. The only advantage would be to move the HND flight a few hours earlier, to match the other HNL-Japan flights, but those still arrive/leave Japan in the evening. By and large HAL seems happy with the current slot times and have made it work quite well.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 146, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5026 times:
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Quoting a380787 (Reply 132):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 129):DOT says it tentatively selects United because -1) Introduce new entrant at HND2) Offer direct competition against existing foreign carrier on SFO-HND route3) SFO gateway enhance inter-gateway competition between US carriers (versus DL @ LAX & SEA)4) UA SFO offers convenient connection to markets that currently do not have HND access especially in Western US5) SFO and West Coast offer substantially larger traffic base.6) Best benefit the US traveling publicOrder becomes final after expiry of appeal process.Yes ... finally, justice and equality is restoredPreviously it made no sense - the largest mainland TPAC gateway by a US carrier was exactly the one lacking HND access.

United finally got what it wants. but will Haneda be all it wants it to be ? Its hard to make a flight crossing 7 time zones and 5,000 miles work well with the schedule restrictions of 2200-0700 window. Why did the DOT agree to such crappy hours, it should have gotten daytime slots.


User currently offlineuberflieger From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5007 times:
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Quoting azjubilee (Reply 143):
Shhh… don't tell Hawaiian about their success with HND!

how could I forget the 50th State where Japanese is the 3rd (in)official language   



passionate about The New American :)
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 148, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

HND slots should only be awarded to Airlines that currently serve NRT, other wise you are just "moving" across town not adding new service..

User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3635 posts, RR: 5
Reply 149, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 146):
Why did the DOT agree to such crappy hours, it should have gotten daytime slots.

Those are the first set of slots Japanese government gave when it allowed international flights arrive to HND. AC is the lone North American carrier to receive a daytime slot. One slot is to be designated for a US carrier, but those have not been released for DOT to decide.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

CI has been flying HND-HNL for years so HND has always been "International"

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 151, posted (1 month 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4583 times:
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Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 149):
Those are the first set of slots Japanese government gave when it allowed international flights arrive to HND. AC is the lone North American carrier to receive a daytime slot. One slot is to be designated for a US carrier, but those have not been released for DOT to decide.

The DOT and the CAB before always seem to accept what is offered by the counter part and not stress how BIG the USA is to that country's airlines. Can you imagine limited service to the USA for JAL or ANA or British Airways. AS a legacy of WW2 United and DL do have the "beyond" rights but those are less important then they use to be, but Haneda day time slots are important to both Japanesse and US airlines.


The worst deal the USA ever agreed to was the Bermuda 2 and the restricted Heathrow access for only 2 US airlines, TWA and Pan AM.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 152, posted (1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 146):
Why did the DOT agree to such crappy hours, it should have gotten daytime slots.

Well would you prefer US have no access to HND?

When Japan reopened up HND to broad international services in 2010, it did so by allowing nighttime service a period that had limited domestic activity and thus had free slots.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 150):
CI has been flying HND-HNL for years so HND has always been "International"

CI switched to NRT as soon as it legally could.

If you don't know the reason CI had to use HND was because of the politics and having to keep services from PRC and ROC separate. Same as many nations had to do once they recognized PRC.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 151):
The DOT and the CAB before always seem to accept what is offered by the counter part and not stress how BIG the USA is to that country's airlines.

You have a real poor understanding of how international agreements work.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 151):
The worst deal the USA ever agreed to was the Bermuda 2 and the restricted Heathrow access for only 2 US airlines, TWA and Pan AM.

Again, you seem to fail to grasp how things were between end of WW2 and US deregulation. PA and TW were essentially Americas longhaul airline instruments and used by the government accordingly.

Also the Bermuda agreement was hailed as a major achievement and liberalized air service greatly between the nations.
I personally recall how fares dropped significantly and made travel easier across the Atlantic. It was a huge achievement at the time.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 153, posted (1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4220 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 152):
Again, you seem to fail to grasp how things were between end of WW2 and US deregulation. PA and TW were essentially Americas longhaul airline instruments and used by the government accordingly.

Also the Bermuda agreement was hailed as a major achievement and liberalized air service greatly between the nations.

The Bermuda 2 is the deal that made all new airline service to London go to Gatwick, thus the term " Gatwicked" in 1977, Why should we have accepted such a deal ? Were we so desparate to get flights from Atlanta, Dallas and Houston to London that Heathrow was not available ? While the UK is an important market for US airline I would argue its more important to BA and Virgin. WE can always fly to Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt. BA can only fly so many times daily to Toronto and Montreal if American airpspace was closed to them.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 152):
The DOT and the CAB before always seem to accept what is offered by the counter part and not stress how BIG the USA is to that country's airlines.
You have a real poor understanding of how international agreements work.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 152):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 146):Why did the DOT agree to such crappy hours, it should have gotten daytime slots.
Well would you prefer US have no access to HND?

When Japan reopened up HND to broad international services in 2010, it did so by allowing nighttime service a period that had limited domestic activity and thus had free slots.

I prefer daytime slots to the the "vampire slots" we have now. NO deal is sometimes better then a bad deal. The Japanese could have been Persuaded that it is in their interest to "find " some day time slots for the USA. Day time slots have "appeared" for Cathay, Singapore Airlines, BA, Air France, Virgin, Air Canada, and Lufthansa but not UA, AA or DL I wonder why ?

I understand plenty about how international aviation agreements work, we are the biggest international market but seem to go cup in hand to Tokyo and ask for for HND slots at any hour. WE should have made the Japanesse understand that if they wanted US to Haneda flights for JAL & ANA then we need day time HND slots, if they disagree then holdout until the see our view. Hawai, LAX and JFK are bigger to ANA ad JAL then UA and DL from Japan.


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 154, posted (1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 153):
The Bermuda 2 is the deal that made all new airline service to London go to Gatwick, thus the term " Gatwicked" in 1977, Why should we have accepted such a deal ? Were we so desparate to get flights from Atlanta, Dallas and Houston to London that Heathrow was not available ? While the UK is an important market for US airline I would argue its more important to BA and Virgin. WE can always fly to Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt. BA can only fly so many times daily to Toronto and Montreal if American airpspace was closed to them.

Original Bermuda agreement goes back to after World War II. The Bermuda 2 addendum was a great feat and greatly opened the door to more services, and very importantly liberalized pricing (remember governments approved fares at the time).
US was able to designate new airlines, new routes, and consumers were able to enjoy the added services at a lower price than ever before. Opening Gatwick was the key, as Heathrow back those days with its 3 terminals was extremely congested and suffered slot shortage just like today.

I have no idea why you think the US should have turned down the opportunity.

Also navigation of the skies is like freedom of navigation of the seas and governed on different basis so dont know why you bring that up, as it has nothing to do with the two.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 153):
I prefer daytime slots to the the "vampire slots" we have now. NO deal is sometimes better then a bad deal. The Japanese could have been Persuaded that it is in their interest to "find " some day time slots for the USA. Day time slots have "appeared" for Cathay, Singapore Airlines, BA, Air France, Virgin, Air Canada, and Lufthansa but not UA, AA or DL I wonder why ?

I understand plenty about how international aviation agreements work, we are the biggest international market but seem to go cup in hand to Tokyo and ask for for HND slots at any hour. WE should have made the Japanesse understand that if they wanted US to Haneda flights for JAL & ANA then we need day time HND slots, if they disagree then holdout until the see our view. Hawai, LAX and JFK are bigger to ANA ad JAL then UA and DL from Japan.

The slots in Japan belong to Japan, and its for them to decide who they give them out to. Japan certainly has many global and regional partners and they can only slice the slots so many ways.

With 55 night time and 42 day time slots there clearly will be winners and losers. For daytime slots only 9 nations out of probably maybe 100 nations that desire them received them.

Some nations dont have either night time or daytime slots. For example Finnair the first nonstop European airline to Japan, and the largest European airline in Japan has zero HND slots.

Unlike other nations that diligently utilized their HND night time slots, seems the US has very poorly utilized this access and could be a reason why they dont have award of additional slots during daytime period.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 155, posted (1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
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Quoting mercure1 (Reply 154):
Original Bermuda agreement goes back to after World War II. The Bermuda 2 addendum was a great feat and greatly opened the door to more services, and very importantly liberalized pricing (remember governments approved fares at the time).
US was able to designate new airlines, new routes, and consumers were able to enjoy the added services at a lower price than ever before. Opening Gatwick was the key, as Heathrow back those days with its 3 terminals was extremely congested and suffered slot shortage just like today.

I have no idea why you think the US should have turned down the opportunity.

I am well aware of the opening to the southern US cities the Bermuda 2 opened but the deal President Carter agreed to restricted access to the world's mot important airport, London Heathrow. It "Gatwicked" every new US flight for the next 30 years until the open skies EU deal in 2008.

You seem to believe that the new airlines wanted to go to Gatwick, ask the Braniff people that. They were in a Texas size tizy that they from Dallas were regulated to the secondary London Airport , Gatwick. Not Delta, Not Braniff, Not AA, not Continental ever wanted to go to Gatwick, that was the bad deal they were dealt by the awful Carter Administration. Whatever the expansive effects of the Bermuda 2 and whatever negative things the 3 crowded terminals at Heathrow had in 1977, none of the new airline wanted Gatwick. The only US airlines that liked that deal where PA and TWA.

Other countries fought the British on the Gatwick thing, they wanted to Gatwick Air Canada and the Canadians threated to deliver a hockey puck on the middle finger of a MOOSE,( if you get what I mean). AC stayed at Heathrow.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 154):
The slots in Japan belong to Japan, and its for them to decide who they give them out to. Japan certainly has many global and regional partners and they can only slice the slots so many ways.

The slots in the USA belong to us, if that is going to be your thesis( even if LAX and SFO don't actually have slots).


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 156, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3710 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 155):
You seem to believe that the new airlines wanted to go to Gatwick, ask the Braniff people that. They were in a Texas size tizy that they from Dallas were regulated to the secondary London Airport , Gatwick. Not Delta, Not Braniff, Not AA, not Continental ever wanted to go to Gatwick, that was the bad deal they were dealt by the awful Carter Administration. Whatever the expansive effects of the Bermuda 2 and whatever negative things the 3 crowded terminals at Heathrow had in 1977, none of the new airline wanted Gatwick. The only US airlines that liked that deal where PA and TWA.

You also seem to forget UK airlines were also at LGW - BCal, Laker, Virgin Atlantic.

There was no special discrimination focused against the US side.

Both UK and US agreed to put new traffic primarily where there was space - that was LGW.

Bermuda 2 was a significant benefit for consumer on both ends by greatly liberalizing air service between what would become the largest trans-atlantic market.

Oh and remember - the US was no angel either with rights in those days. US gave very cold reception to UK wishes for additional US gateways and beyond traffic rights to Canada, Latin America, Caribbean and also Asia for growth in round the world services.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 155):
The slots in the USA belong to us, if that is going to be your thesis( even if LAX and SFO don't actually have slots).

Japanese carriers must abide by the same rules as everyone in the US and play whatever slot of facility restrictions we have here.

Also the US is under no obligation to enter into bilaterals and offer air service from airlines or nations it does not want to.
You cant force the US, nor can you force any sovereign nation

But back to HND, as Mercure1 well stated with such a limited number of slots, there clearly will be winners and losers. I'm sure many nations beyond the 9 awarded states would love to have received slots also, but its a mathematical impossibility at the end.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 157, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 156):
You also seem to forget UK airlines were also at LGW - BCal, Laker, Virgin Atlantic.

There was no special discrimination focused against the US side.

Both UK and US agreed to put new traffic primarily where there was space - that was LGW.

Bermuda 2 was a significant benefit for consumer on both ends by greatly liberalizing air service between what would become the largest trans-atlantic market.

Oh and remember - the US was no angel either with rights in those days. US gave very cold reception to UK wishes for additional US gateways and beyond traffic rights to Canada, Latin America, Caribbean and also Asia for growth in round the world services.

Yes Brits Gatwicked all the "other" British Airlines in 1977 to protect then state owned BA. I am aware the LGW applied to both sides but why can't you accept that it was a "raw" deal. Even Sir Adam Thompson of British Caledonian wanted to move his airline to LHR but was politiely told " go to hell ".

Why couldn't we have had an expansion into DFW, Houston and Alanta from LHR ? You keep saying LGW like its the promised land, well history has proven otherwise as all the southern US flights are now to LHR save BA flights to Tampa and Orlando.

I am for expansion without Gatwick.

.


User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

THIS!

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 153):
if they wanted US to Haneda flights for JAL & ANA then we need day time HND slots, if they disagree then holdout until the see our view. Hawai, LAX and JFK are bigger to ANA ad JAL then UA and DL from Japan.

This seems like the easiest way to sort this out. AA, DL, & UA airlines will be fine without daytime slots at HND and so will JL & NH.

Just have the US authority tell the Japanese authority that we understand their position and respect their decision as well as completely support them; and to that end won't mind eliminating all flights to the US originating from HND during daytime. I don't know if JL or NH already fly to the US from Haneda during the daytime but I'm sure they won't mind stopping if they do until a equal balance can be found. Besides, that would give the HND folks more slots to hand out to other countries in the meantime. If it takes years to figure out how to divvy up 6 daytime slots to JL & NH and another 6 daytime slots to AA, DL, & UA so be it.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24310 posts, RR: 47
Reply 159, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 157):
why can't you accept that it was a "raw" deal

Because it was not a raw deal. Its was a huge expansion in service between the nations and provided consumer benefits in greater carrier choice, new routes and pricing.

LHR was a huge mess back then also, there was no room to cram everyone into it, especially someone like BCal that also would want its domestic and European feeder flights to compliment any longhul services it could offer.

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 158):
eliminating all flights to the US originating from HND during daytime.

There are no such flights.

For every slot foreign carriers receive, the Japanese carriers receive likewise. Since there are no daytime slots for US carriers, there are no daytime slots that can be used by Japanese carriers to the US.

So there is already a very balanced approach which you advocate that the Japanese have established.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineAirMailer From United States of America, joined May 2006, 461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 160, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 159):
There are no such flights.

Thanks for the insight.
In that case, I don't see what the problem is?

If the powers that be in Japanese aviation & HND don't want US passengers to have easy access to Tokyo I for one am happy to go visit another city in Asia; it's no big deal to me. Lots of flights to lots of places available right now. The funny thing is that I may pass through NRT to get to one of those other cities, then again, I may fly right over. It sure sounds like they don't want people like me to visit and I'm ok with that. It's their country.  


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 161, posted (1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

You guys forget that the slots allotted to NH and JL are usually "reserved" from the slots that they dole out to international carriers.

They first look to the countries bidding for service and see if JL or NH can't serve that profitably first.