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Banning Of Night Flights At LHR-Implications?  
User currently offlineSergy2k From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 63 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2205 times:

Well the public have spoken and a court has agreed that they should have a good nights sleep - at the expense of night flights at heathrow.

What are the implications of this to the already beleagured airlines and also the status of LHR on the world?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQantas744 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 246 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

I live about a mile from LHR and as far as I'm concerned a ban on night flights has to be a good idea,I'm love planes but I am entitled to be able to sleep at night.BAA has a pretty good relationship with the local neighbourhood-night flights would put an end to all that.Of course if they were prepared to install enough insulation in my house and those of my neighbours so that planes taking off over our homes would not be problem then they can have as many night flights as they want.In the summer months when I have the windows open it can be quite pleasant going sleep to the sound of planes taxiing around the airport-but when the wind turns to an easterly direction we get them taking off right over us,and that is far from pleasant.

Qantas744



you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

wasn't the airport there before the houses?

If it was, you're entitled to sweet bugger all, I'd say!



-
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7441 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2109 times:
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Qantas

Hope you don't mind this question....when did you move into the neighbourhood of Heathrow? It's not as if Heathrow was built there overnight!

It won't be just a LHR problem - I suppose that every European airport will now have to get an extra runway so that night flights can then take place during the day.....and airlines would appreciate it if governments and/or courts were to hand over billions of pounds (or Euros) so that airlines could then buy extra aircraft to operate these former night flights! Anyone believe that environmental concerns won't be raised should that occur?

David/MAN: let's go back to having 3 runways here again!!
Oh, forgot: 296 and counting (ticket application forms now available)


User currently offlineLeftseat86 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

I would love to live under the approach end of 27L!
I love airplane noise, it helps me fall asleep... Big grin


User currently offlineBlueShamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 3062 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

At a time when the airline industry is going thru a seismic transformation, I find it nothing less than tactless and thoughtless that this has gone thru the courts now.  Pissed

What people like QF don't understand is that the majority of employees working at major UK airports, LHR, LGW, MAN actually live within the noise footprint of the airport.  Wow!

Further redundancies will be inevitable if this judgement is made law.  Nuts

That reduces the spending power of the local community; local stores and business begin to close; local house prices plummet as lenders foreclose, and once nice areas start to look decidedly shabby.

But of course, so long as these people get their 8 hours uninterrupted sleep, they couldn't care less about anyone else or their welfare.  Yeah sure

Anyone who has moved into an area near a busy airport since the start of the jet era, moved in the full knowledge of the local surroundings.

Whilst movements have increased dramatically, noise footprints have steadily DECREASED.

I live on the climb-out from 24R & L @ MAN and have only once been woken this year, and that was by a BAC 1-11.

I get disturbed by the emergency services and the police helicopter more !!

Specifically for LHR, it is one of THE major travel hubs in Europe. This in itself is worth a fortune to the economy of the country.

Anything which would make airlines think twice about operating thru LHR would be catastrophic for the UK economy.

It is for this reason that noise protesters should consider the whole national economic picture and not just the effect on their own back yard when they complain so vociferously about their interrupted sleep.

Shamu  Smokin cool




So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

I hope flights arriving at 0555 in the morning aren't considered night flights.


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineJaSpiKE From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 1 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2053 times:


A court ruling which could stop night flights to and from Heathrow airport has been condemned as "a farce" by the London Chamber of Commerce.
Its spokesman, Peter Bishop, said the aviation industry was being discriminated against when it was most vulnerable.

The European Court of Human Rights ruled flights to and from the airport between 11pm and 6am infringe residents' rights to a good night's sleep, under article eight of the Human Rights convention.

Airlines and airports across the country are likely to be affected by the decision, although it is not clear what short-term action the UK Government will take.



B747 near Heathrow


Mr Bishop said: "If the government bans night flights at Heathrow, it will place the industry at a further disadvantage compared to its European competitors, who have fewer restrictions on night flights."

Switching British Airway's early morning flights into Heathrow to day-time slots could cost between £20m-£30m a year, he added.

A spokeswoman for British Airways told BBC News Online: "We are going to be studying the judgement and looking at the potential implications for our operations."

The ruling is not binding on the government, although the convention on which it is based is now in enshrined in UK's own Human Rights Act.

Nightly noise

The case, brought against the Department of Transport by a group of residents living under the Heathrow flight path, is also likely to have an impact on all other airports within the EU.

Members of the Heathrow Association for the Control of Aircraft Noise (Hacan) say their sleep is badly affected by about 16 aircraft which arrive at Heathrow between four and six o'clock in the morning.


Hacan chairman John Stewart celebrated with champagne and described the ruling, which gave £4,000 damages to each plaintiff, as "great news" for everybody under the flightpath.

"A small group of residents has taken on the UK Government and won. The government may appeal, but I don't think it will.

"I think within 18 months we could see an end to overnight flights at Heathrow."

Difficult balance

A spokesman for airport operator BAA at Heathrow said it would continue working to find improvements.

"We must wait and see how the government responds to understand what the impact may be for Heathrow.

"We have always recognised there is a difficult balance for government to strike on night flights between passengers' demand to fly, airlines' operational requirements, and the impact on local communities."

One resident living under the flight path, Virginia Godfrey, described the nightly noise from aircraft as intolerable.

She told the BBC: "It's loud enough to wake you up, and loud enough that you don't get back to sleep again once you've been woken up."


User currently offlineSergy2k From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2043 times:

"I hope flights arriving at 0555 in the morning aren't considered night flights."

Well apparently they are, all flights from 23:00 to 06:00 were taken into account. However, and i'm sure someone can correct me if i'm wrong that the flights arriving from the far east and australasia only arrive at that time of the morning (04:00-06:00ish) so that the arrival and departure times in the respective countries are kept respectable. I'm sure the good people of australia wouldn't want to board the only scheduled flight to london at 03:00 in the morning - but then that wouldn't be possible if they couldn't take off till 06:00!


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7441 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
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Just had a funny thought.....what about nightshift workers who need to sleep during the day. Imagine the chaos caused if they, too, decided to go to the European Court of Human Rights to seek the banning of daytime flights because their sleep is allegedly ruined. On the basis of today's judgement, we can only assume that day flights would be banned.

I live on the departure path for 06L at MAN (NOKIN departures) and I can't say that I've had my sleep affected whenever the 06s have been in use since February.

David/MAN: 296 and counting


User currently offlineJaSpiKE From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 1 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

If they do stop those flights, airlines will lose a lot of money on top of what they already have lostin the last month Sad

JaSpiKE
 Big thumbs up


User currently offlineQantas744 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 246 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

I am quite well aware of the impact on the local economy that Sept 11th is already having in my area,I am also keen to see LHR get back to where it was ten years ago in terms of the pecking order of european hub airports.Heathrow's success is mirrored by the success of the shops and services around where I live,the last thing I want to see is the Feltham jobcentre being inundated with former employees of BA,Virgin,BAA and other employees from LHR.
In response to the comments about 'who came first-me or the airport' well of course I knew the airport was there when I moved here,I also knew that the planes were pretty inactive between 2300-0500.If BAA decides that it wants to change things and have planes taking off all through the night then that is a different situation to how things were when I moved here.I would object to the prospect of movements every 60 seconds or so all through the night as that is how the story was originally portrayed my the local media-and I apologize to other board members for being so naive and thinking the media were being accurate.From what I hear from other sources it appears that the local pressure group were trying to ban all flights in between 2300 and 0600,specifically the 0500-0600 arrivals.This is of course a flawed argument because those flights have been operating for as long as I can remember so there are very few people who can say they moved to the area before these flights operated.I am quite happy for LHR to operate through the night as it currently does,and to ban such flights would completely unrealistic.But that is a long way from the original reports of flights every few minutes at all hours of the night that I based my initial post on.
Furthermore I must add that I am a shift worker-I don't work nights but in the summer months I frequently go to bed before it gets dark,and the noise of the aircraft is distracting but that is something I knew about when I moved here so I don't start going to the European Courts about it like some people obviously have done.
Many of my family live in the Australia/Pacific region so the flights that arrive at 0500-0600 are the ones that I use fairly regularly,and yes they are generally the flights from the east-TG,MH,SQ,QF,GF,EK and of course BA,there are one or two at that time from the US aswell.
Having re-read the posts I ought to make it clear that I have no problem with the way LHR currently operates,and I don't want other board members to think that I have the same agenda as the people at HACAN who went to court.I love living near the airport,of course it can sometimes be a problem but on the whole it's great.I know there are a lot A.net users who would love to live with the smell of jet fuel pervading their garden on a regular basis and the sight of UA/AA/VS/BA jets banking off 09R heading for the USA on occasional days,sadly for them that's my perogative and I don't want it to change.

Qantas744



you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

The people complaining are stuck up middle class recidents who live (reside?) in Kew and Richmond. I live 2DME from LHR and never get woken up despite sleeping with windows wide open.

User currently offlineSunnyzsz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

I think that if these people have a problem with the aircraft landing / takeing off, they should move! Lets face it, with the house prices in the UK being so high, it wont take that long to sell!

User currently offlineQantas744 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 246 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Fortunately (for me at least) the fact LHR is within earshot means that house prices where I live are not too expensive (when compared to the rest of London).I work in Twickenham and there is no way I could afford to live there.
The people of Richmond/Kew/Putney have had it quiet for the last year,when Concorde is back in regular service they will be even more inclined to complain.

Qantas744



you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

I lived in Putney and Concorde was the only plane you could hear.Weird that with rising house prices, Putney has had a Labour Mp for 2 terms.

User currently offlineStratofish From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 1055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1980 times:

House prices are what´s all about.
As I live in a climb out zone of an airport myself I know this kind of people. Those ppl who go to the courts are not the ones who really suffer from night time noises but those who worry about the values of their homes/houses.
Let´s hope we don´t see this at every airport in Europe.

Stratofish



The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
User currently offlineJgardiner From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

This organization has their own website at http://www.hacan.cero.co.uk and you can e-mail the executive at

Chairman JDM.Stewart@Virgin.Net
Vice-Chair Monica.Robb@Virgin.Net

and let them know what you think of this turn of events.



User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6540 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1967 times:

No airport can be a mojor international hub if they close down during many hours each day. Especially not in a country which already for natural reasons suffers from many fog delays.

It will hamper London's position as a world industrial and financial center seriously.

When airline companies risk that a short delay easily means no flight at all and thousands of stranded pax, then also daytime traffic will soon find other hubs, which of course then will be on continental Europe.

And by the way, which taxpayers will then pay for the debts of the Heathrow Express subway?

But it may be good for the Tunnel when Englishmen will have to go to "Europe" for going out in the world.

What damage Bin Laden couldn't do to British airline industry, the Englishmen can probably do themselves.

But personally I don't care if LHR becomes a major regional airport instead of a major international hub. I can still use it when I have to go shopping on Oxford Street. I never used it as a hub anyway. And company training courses, which now take place in London, they can just as well take place at any other pleasant place in Europe. It's just dialing another hotel or conference center telephone number.

Cheers, Preben Norholm



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineLindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3131 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1962 times:
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The implication is that Paris CDG has yet another advantage over LHR.

User currently offlineMas777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2937 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

To be honest - I don't think its necessarily a bad thing. I used to live in West Central London and the planes used to wake me up there - so I guess I can sympathise with people living around the area.

Besides - I've always thought that landing at LHR from the Far East at such odd-hours was rather annoying. BA used to fly KUL-MAA-LHR and the scheduled arrival time was often 0440 hrs. We once landed about 45 mins early and couldn't get back into London as the Tube hadn't opened yet...

Airlines arriving before dawn-break would just have to reschedule to depart their origin city a little later - not too much to ask is it?


User currently offlinePSU_DTW_SCE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

What about flights from the US that leave in the morning and arrive in the U.K. late in the evening.

I flew AA 90 ORD-LHR, it was scheduled to arrive at 10:45pm, but we didn't land until about 11:15pm The airport was quite active at this time.


User currently offlineQantas744 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 246 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1913 times:

LGW has a train service to central London all through the night,unfortunately passengers arriving ex SIN/KUL/BKK etc in the early hours of the morning have to either wait for the tube to start running at around 0600 or go on the outrageously expensive Heathrow Express train.Unless London Underground is prepared to run the Picadilly line all through the night then there is little point in extending the operating hours of the airport as noone would be able to travel anywhere-unless they live locally or can afford a cab to the centre of London.

Qantas744



you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

I am a Law student studying English Law (I am a Englishman) and it is abundantly obvious that the consequence of night flights into Heathrow is a public nuisance. I won't go into this too much, but with reference to TG992's comment about the airport (and the flights) being there before the houses, this doesn't matter. It is irrelevant whether or not someone moved to the nuisance; if the nuisance causes disturbance to people's enjoyment of their land (as it clearly does) they are within their rights to bring action against the cause.

Note: there is a lot more to nuisance, most of which being difficult to understand especially to non-law students, but I prove my point. If you demand more on this, I will happily look through my notes and dig-out more information to back-up my case.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

I am a Law student studying English Law (I am an Englishman) and it is abundantly obvious that the consequence of night flights into Heathrow is a public nuisance. I won't go into this too much, but with reference to TG992's comment about the airport (and the flights) being there before the houses, this doesn't matter. It is irrelevant whether or not someone moved to the nuisance; if the nuisance causes disturbance to people's enjoyment of their land (as it clearly does) they are within their rights to bring action against the cause.

Note: there is a lot more to nuisance, most of which being difficult to understand especially to non-law students, but I prove my point. If you demand more on this, I will happily look through my notes and dig-out more information to back-up my case.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
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