RA-85154 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 618 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1847 times:
Maybe, its just an aircraft with some same specifications and they share their size but I think thats about it...don't forget the resemblance between for instance a DC-9 and a BAC-1-11.
The Tu-204 is powered by Solovjov PS-90 engines but also Rolls Royce engines
Doei / bye in Dutch
Airbus380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1648 times:
The Russians did steal the Concord design, and made a few VERY minor changes to try to cover it up. Just like Bill Gates allegedly stole the Microsoft OS GUI from Steve Jobs if you have ever seen Pirates of Silicon Valley.
9v-spk From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2001, 1646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1625 times:
Oh come on chill out you guys!There's nothing to argue actually!
From my point of view, EVEN the Russians stole the design (Example Concorde - T144) well obviously the Concorde wins.You have to admit that Sushka, that after the TU144 crashed in the Paris Airshow and since then Concorde was the leader for Super-Sonic jets, obviously.But i still wondered why Russian government didn't release the Tu-144 anymore.I think it's a wonderful airliner.
Some of the planes from Russia MAY BE a copy-cat of American Planes, but also could be the other way round.I've read some airliners books, and they mentioned stealing designs from the Boeing Company.Sushka, usually the Russian Airliners were build to compete with Western Airliners, but actually there's no harm.Russia is a big and strong Aviation country, and both Western Countries and Russia had different markets fo different planes.Airbus380, there's also the chance that Wstern Countries would wanna steal the designs of Russian.
Myself think that it the 752 and TU-204 does look like, from its appearance.Maybe most parts look the same, just like they have 2 engines, a pair of wings, tails etc, but still they are totally different!Russian Made, American Made!
TransSwede From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1595 times:
C'mon guys... Even if planes look the similar externally, they would probably be vastly different "under the hood", so copying the layout doesn't save you much work, since you still have to engineer and build the plane. (This would be necessary for a soviet builder anyway, since their tools and standars were different)
Planes also usually look alike becuase they are created to with similiar (or identical) requirements. Given 60's technology, and the task of building a Mach 2 jetliner, you are bound to end up with superficially similar designs. For example, lets consider the problems encountered for a supersonic transpor design:
1. Low air resistance needed - Solution: Use a long slender body with sharp nose
2. Sharp nose gives very poor pilot visibility during landing - Solution: make the nose pivotable
3. We need a wing that can preform well in sub-, trans-, and super-sonic flight - Solution: Look at existing Mach 2 fighter, a delta wing works well.
And on and on and on...
So given the same requirements, it is not unusual to end up with something similar.
But did KGB steal the Concorde design and show it to the Tupolev design firm? Oh most likely - But they chose some different design paths that made having the Concorde design pretty much worthless. The Concordes blended delta-wing would provide different handling and windtunnel data than the Tu-144's "staggered" delta wing and canard.
For the same reason, why do Boeings and Airbus' planes look so similar? Does that mean that they steal from each other? Or is the similarity between the 777 and A330 just a product of similar requirements?
Airbus380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
"Konkordski": The Tu-144
What's the old saying? "Industrial espionage is the sincerest form of flattery?" With the Americans hard at work creating the SST and the British and French working together on the Concorde, the Soviets decided they had to have one too. And not just any one; it would be the biggest and fastest too. And where better to start than with the actual blueprints for the Concorde prototype? While the Soviet Union did not produce innovative engineers in the same quantities as the West, the Soviet Union did produce something perhaps even better: World-class spies.
Riding high on the success of Sputnik and other space achievements, Nikita Khrushchev was not about to let his perceived technological lead over the west slip over the development of little more than an airplane. He gave his vast spy network their orders and thus undertook an effort involving exchange students, executives for the Soviet Aeroflot airline in Paris, and even top KGB agents. Though the intelligence gathering alone probably involved more man-hours than the British and French spent total to make the Concorde, the Soviets had enough "borrowed" technology to proceed.
One Step Ahead
The Soviet goal was not only to copy what the British and French (and separately, the Americans) were doing, but to beat them to finish line too. In charge of getting the Soviet project finished before the Concorde was Andrei Nicholayvich Tupolev. Tupolev had designed many Soviet aircraft (even while jailed by Stalin in the early 40s) that had bore his name (he's the "Tu" in Tu-144).
As the prototyping project was nearing completing, the Soviets learned the Concorde prototype was going to fly for the first time in early 1969. The project was put into overdrive to ensure they flew theirs first. The goal then became to fly the Tu-144 by the end of 1968.
First Test Flight of Supersonic Commercial Aircraft
The first flight of a supersonic passenger plane took place on December 31, 1968 on the secret Zhukovsky Airfield near Moscow. The flight was not announced to the world in advance so that if something went wrong, they would not have to admit failure. Among the invited crowd that cloudy day to witness the historic flight were the 80-year-old Tupolev and his son Alexei, who would inherit his fathers role upon the elder's death in 1972. As the delta-winged aircraft made its way down the snow-covered runway, nobody was prouder at having beat the Concorde (by two months) than Tupolev. It was the crowning achievement in a life that began before the Wright brothers even tinkered with bicycle.
When the Soviets sent pictures of the triumph around the world, the French and British, who knew what the KGB had been up to and countered by giving phony plans to known spies, were not amused. The Western press soon nicknamed the Concorde look-alike the "Konkordski."
However, in their race to be first, the Soviets had taken shortcuts: Where they did not have complete blueprints for a critical part or when they did but they couldn't decipher the complex plans, they engineered it themselves. But they did so without the experience of the Western engineers who had designed each part to work well with all the rest. This lead to some fairly serious deficiencies in the design. Most notably, the plane was far less stable at slower speeds which lead to some harrowing landings.
The Soviets went back to the drawing board and radically re-engineered the Tu-144 and were ready in early 1973 to show off their new marvel to the world. This new design relied far less heavily on "borrowed" technology from the West and even featured an innovative feature called cannards, which were two smaller wings immediately behind the cockpit. These cannards provided more lift for takeoff and more stability at landing (the were retracted during flight).
1973 Paris Airshow
With the new and improved Tu-144 ready, the Soviets wanted to show off their new plane at the most prestigious event in aviation: The annual Paris Airshow. This is where the best and latest aircraft are shown to potential buyers and the world. As Boeing had all but given up on the SST, this show turned into a showdown between the Concorde and the Tu-144. Neither had flown a single passenger yet and the world waited to see who would dominate supersonic transport in the Super70s and beyond.
Before a third-day crowd of 200,000, the Concorde, flown by British pilots John Farley and Andy Jones, went first and wowed the public with speed and maneuvers never seen on a commercial craft before. Then it was the Soviets turn. The Tu-144 taxied and took off. It made some impressive 360 degree turns above the runway and other maneuvers similar to what the Concorde had just done. What happened next is best summarized by John Farley who watched it all from the ground:
"Because there was no cloud, he could go up and up and up, and, I don't know, three and a half, four thousand feet. This thing was just going up, looking at it as we were, you know, going away from us like this. And then suddenly, it just very abruptly leveled off. I mean, really violently. And it did something that you never see big airplanes do: Really violently change their pitch attitude. And both Andy and I went, "Ooooh!" You got this vision of this aircraft coming down. And it has to do with the angle, the speed, and the distance remaining when you think, 'That's not right.' And I said to Andy, "He's lost it." And at that point, with the aircraft still fairly well up, probably -- I don't know -- 1,500 feet or a bit less, it started to break up and had clearly been overstressed."
All six aboard the Tu-144 were killed as were 8 French citizens on the ground. Why did the plane make the sudden move to level off? Only since the opening of the former Soviet Union has evidence surfaced to back up what had long been suspected. A French Mirage fighter had secretly been ordered to shoot footage of the plane from above it and, of course, the Soviet pilots were not informed. The sudden, fatal maneuver was made to avoid a collision with the Mirage. The French government colluded with the Soviets to cover up the story (they conveniently lost the black box recorder and never publicly released a full report). In return, the French would not claim in their abbreviated report (little more than a press release) that there was anything mechanically wrong with the Soviet aircraft.
Commercial Success? Nyet!
Despite the cover-up, the damage was done and the Tu-144 was destined to become little more than a footnote in the history of aviation. On Nov. 1, 1977, a Tu-144 flew from Moscow to Alma-Ata, Kazakhstan, making its first passenger flight. But due to mechanical problems it was unable to maintain even its modest one flight per week schedule. A total of 17 Tu-144's were manufactured, including a prototype and five D models.
Reverse Industrial Espionage
What's good for the goose... In 1993, the Americans - led by Boeing and NASA - decided to take advantage of the thawing of the Cold War and created a program to learn what they could from the design of the Tu-144. A June '93 agreement signed by Al Gore and Russian prime minister Viktor Chernomyrdin created the project which was jointly funded by NASA's High Speed Research (HSR) program and Boeing. What was in it for the Russians? Russian pride at showing the Americans something they were unable to produce was certainly a factor but the American's hard currency was the primary motivator.
A Tu-144 that had been in storage for years was obtained and modified by the Tupolev Aircraft Design Bureau in 1996 creating what NASA called the Tu-144LL Flying Laboratory. It was hoped the knowledge gained from the flights would benefit NASA & Boeing's in their efforts to "develop the technology that may enable design of an efficient, environmentally friendly second-generation supersonic transport in this country."
This program involved eight experiments - six aboard the aircraft and two ground test engine experiments. Between November 1996 and February 1998 the Tu-144LL flew 19 research flights. The follow-on Tu-144LL program encompassed about eight flights, focusing on extensions of five experiments from the first project and two new experiments to measure fuel system temperatures and to define in-flight wing deflections. You can learn more about this program from NASA.
Inside the Tu-144
The Tu-144 required a crew of 3 and could carry 140 passengers 6,500 kilometers at a top speed of 2,500 kph. Its wingspan was 28.8 meters, its length was 65.7 meters and it carried four Kuznetsov NK-144 afterburning turbofan engines to a maximum altitude of 18,000 meters. Without passengers and cargo, the Tu-144 weighed in at 85,000 kilograms. The Tu-144LL is constructed mostly of VAD-23, a light aluminum alloy, with integrally stiffened panels. Titanium and stainless steel were used for the leading edges, elevons, rudder and under-surface of the rear fuselage.
Wasilenko From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1521 times:
Airbus380 you had forgoten to make one little statment however, "Tu-144 won the first prize at the Paris Air Show and Concorde did not!" Although it is true that Russian engineers did have Concorde blueprints it is very imporatant not to forget that a lot of design analysis came from russian military aircraft such as these shown below:
Now back to the question.
How about Yak-40, as I understand Western Aviation had nothing even close to it for at least 20 years. Not to forget the fact that Yak-40 was the world's first passenger jet to meet the Ch3.
Tu-134 was the world's first airliner to have its tailplane fully positioned on the top of the stabiliser, now how many planes use such configuration now?
Sterne82 From Belgium, joined May 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1519 times:
Little correction; the TU-204 is not powered by "Soljolev" engines but by Perm PS-90A, the same than the IL-96-300 is using.
Moreover, the TU-204 and TU-214 could be powered by PS-90A, NK-93 and RR-211-524. And you could put russian or american avionics in it... That's a true flexible airliners, no?
Indeed, the B752 and TU-204 looks closely the same, they are built different way, and the russians engineers are well know for building structures which are able to run more than 30 years... I do not know if an B752 will be able to fly as much as a TU-204 will be able to?
That's not critics about B752 but only some thoughts and point of vieuw. Badfully, the russians airliners have such a bad reputation in western europe and Usa... but that's real good airliners... have a look to the IL-96-300, Il-96-400, TU204/214/234 and TU334 these airliners needs to be more know.
: Another little corection Benjamin PS stands for PAVEL SOLOVIEV The engines were renamed after the engineer died in the early 90s. Pavel Soloviev was o
: A380, I'm aware of the information in the article - And I still don't see how it contradicts what I have written in this thread. My original point sta
: It, as all Russian aircraft are, is very crude to say the least. A sorry example of the 757.
: Technical data Type Tu-204-120 Function Passenger Year 1992 Crew 3 Engines 2*19500kg Rolls-Roys RB211-535E4 Length 46.2m Wingspan 42m Wing area 182.4m
: Excuse me Wasilenko, I didn't knew that. Next time I'll check my sources before speaking! Benjamin
: When I was at the airport of Caïro; we were transprted by bus to the terminal. We passed by an Air Cairo Aircraft which I thought was a B757. I hadn'
: Why does a "modern" TU-204 still require 3 cockpit crew? It's a glass FMS right?
: Indeed that's a EFIS flight deck, but when the aircraft have been designed, Aeroflot asked to put a 3 man crew instead of a 2 man crew. But if you ask
: The TU-204 could be considered the Russian equivalent of the 757-200 but is certainly not identical even though the resemblance is striking. The 204 d
: We used to lease a TU-204 for cargo ops and I've enjoyed a jump seat on it once. This aircraft is really nice, the cockpit is EFIS and indeed, there's
: I think the Tu-204 looks very similar to the 757. Have you ever seen Russia's "spaceshuttle" in Gorky Park, in Moscow? It looks (almost) exactly like
: The Buran is a story by itself... Yes, it is an aerodynamic copy, but the wing is placed further forward due to more forward center of gravity. Otherw
: The DC3 (Il-3), B29 (Bull), F111(Su-24), F18 (Mig29) F15 (Su27)B1 (Blackjack), 727 (Tu154), 757 (Tu204), C141 (Il76), and Space Shuttle (Buran) were
: TransSwedes examples of "exact" wing and tail have made me consider another visit to an optomitrist. Hell, to my old eyes they don't look anything ali
: These days there are many aircraft that look a like. The 757 is a great example. Of course, the TU-204 is very similar to the 757. Same goes with the
: IMissPiedmont wrote: >TransSwedes examples of "exact" wing and tail have >made me consider another visit to an optomitrist. Hell, >to my old eyes they
: EssentialPower There is a reason the Li-2 (not the Il-3....the Il-3 was a fighter designed by Polikarpov) is a copy of the DC-3.....because it was lic
: dont forget about the Illyshin62.... it was a blatant copy of the VC-10!
: Aviatsiya, I agree with most of what you said. Today's airliners mostly look like the 707, Caravelle, or A300, but that doesn't mean they're rip-offs.
: It should be remembered that the Russion aircraft are designed/built with different criterea Western manufacturers like Boeing and Airbus are in compe
: Airbus380, I don't know if you're joking or if you truly are that ignorant. While it's true that some designers 'borrow' ideas from others (The T-tail