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Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Pt. 9  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17084 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As the previous thread became quite long and slow to load for some users, it was locked for further comments. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this thread. Part 8 can be found here:

Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Pt. 8 (by PHX787 Dec 7 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the forums!

Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
256 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 17046 times:

I never meant to imply that PHX is going to be another STL, because it won't. PHX has far too much going for it for that to happen. STL was a bastard step child of a hub that AA never really wanted to begin with. Having three hubs within 800 miles of each other was destined failure, AA only gave STL a shot because the summer of 2000 produced horrific delays at ORD because of traffic and DFW having had a rough summer with thunderstorms. It was thought that STL could perhaps function as a reliever hub for the other two. For various reasons, that didn't work, mostly because the necessity to do so was no longer there.

I don't think the same is true with PHX because it's certainly more valuable and has superior O&D.

I do think PHX will see a significant right sizing, but I don't see it being de-hubbed. Logically, AA/US is tapped out for space at LAX, so PHX still has some value as a western regional hub.



PHX based
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16897 times:

I think we all know that there are going to be some reductions with the new AA.

My question would be will AA use larger aircraft 321, 320 over RJ's and CJ's to cut the number of flights. I know that this would reduce the number of flights, but might keep the number of seats similar or a little reduced to the number we have now. It seems like symantecs, but I also think it could be a way to appease some in that while the number of flights might be reduced the number of seats would/could be minimally effected.


User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 16881 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 2):
My question would be will AA use larger aircraft 321, 320 over RJ's and CJ's to cut the number of flights.

Most of the cities that see RJs are FAT, BFD, SBA, SBP, BUR, LGB, YUM, FLG, PSP, TUS, MRY, ABQ, ELP, HMO. The only ones of those I could see a moving to a couple of A319s instead would be LGB, BUR, TUS, ABQ with a reduction in frequency I may be missing a city pair. I could see a situation where cities like MKE, BWI, CMH, IND, STL, move from 2/3x 319/320 to 1/2x 320/321. In other words moving out A319s in favor of less frequent A320s and A321s, which they have done a considerable amount of that already.


User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16798 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 2):
My question would be will AA use larger aircraft 321, 320 over RJ's and CJ's to cut the number of flights.

l
The trend towards larger aircraft started already several years ago. It's amazing how many flights are operated withA321 these days, and a lot of it is real capacity increase. Take for example PHX-JFK: for many years there three flights daily, most on A319, ocasionally an A320. Now it's 4 flights daily, three on A321! PHX-DCA: used to be a single A319 daily. Nowadays it's an A321, a B752 and an A319.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 1):
I do think PHX will see a significant right sizing,

Indeed, it will be sized up.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16756 times:

Hey guys I don't think I should do the traditional thread intro anymore since I'm not gonna be living in PHX for another few years hahaha

But I will be back in the valley on March 6, for a week or so.


I'm going to have to concede there will be some reductions in frequencies but PHX has the O&D to sustain most routes on their current roster and maybe even add some. E.g., CVG.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16632 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
I'm going to have to concede there will be some reductions in frequencies but PHX has the O&D to sustain most routes on their current roster and maybe even add some. E.g., CVG.

I agree. I think a few weaker cities may get dropped -- particularly those already serviced from LAX or DFW -- and I think it's possible that we'll lose quite a bit of service due to RJ reductions, although that will likely be a combination of their "right sizing" and because of the growing pilot shortage.

AA/US is the only major carrier to have not made a significant move towards replacing smaller RJs with larger ones, and will still be using a significant number of 50-seaters for the foreseeable future. I don't think they'll be as well-positioned as Delta, and to a much lesser extent United, to weather the pilot shortage. United was similarly unprepared, but the purchase of a large number of E175s and bringing more CRJ700s into the fleet will at least remedy the issue, something AA/US hasn't done to a similar extent. DL's additions of the 717 and large RJs, effectively eliminating 50-seaters and giving them F on every flight, means they are much better prepared.

All of that plays into the ultimate fate of PHX and just how many flights we're likely to lose. Like CLE, whose cuts were inevitable and were conveniently blamed on the shortage, I think PHX could be "right sized" with AA claiming a similar rationale. I don't think the cuts will be devastating, but they will be significant and leave open the possibility of someone else taking a sizable market share to fill the void. Whether that will be WN or someone else will remain to be seen, just please not NK. Anyone but NK. I wonder if it could actually be a good way for F9 and their new ownership to have a fresh start outside of the Charlie Foxtrot that is DEN...

[Edited 2014-02-19 13:14:10]


1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11529 posts, RR: 61
Reply 7, posted (6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16618 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 6):
AA/US is the only major carrier to have not made a significant move towards replacing smaller RJs with larger ones, and will still be using a significant number of 50-seaters for the foreseeable future. I don't think they'll be as well-positioned as Delta, and to a much lesser extent United, to weather the pilot shortage. United was similarly unprepared, but the purchase of a large number of E175s and bringing more CRJ700s into the fleet will at least remedy the issue, something AA/US hasn't done to a similar extent.
AA currently has more than 100 76-seat jets on order and yet to be delivered, on top of the ~190 they already fly. The combined new AA's present fleet plus backlog brings them to well over 300 large RJs within just a few years time. Please correct me if I'm wrong - but I believe that's actually more than United plans to have in that time (at least officially acknowledged as-of-yet). Now I agree most of these jets will go to replacing existing 50-seat fleets, so I suspect the new AA's 50-seat fleet will shrink dramatically in coming years, but even still there will be lots of new planes coming. If we use a 2:3 replacement ratio of new 76-seaters to 50-seaters, which I think is a fair approximation, we'd end up with AA's 100+ new 76-seats replacing over 150 50-seaters, and that's not counting that I think many existing AA/US large RJs are going to be getting replaced by mainline and reprioritized to replace 50-seaters as well.

Either way, I think the impact on PHX from this RJ issue is going to be relatively minimal compared to the larger dynamics at play with PHX economics. It's a lower-yielding hub with a competing hub by a lower-cost carrier, and it serves almost no traffic flow that other AA hubs don't already serve. That's a far bigger issue than RJs (especially since PHX is already among the least-RJ-centric hubs AA has).

[Edited 2014-02-19 13:31:35]

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16577 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):

I'm not sure exactly how many UA will have, but I don't think it's too far off of AA's number. My impression was that many of UA's E-Jet deliveries were earlier than AA's, and since the problem is becoming fairly imminent, it might put UA in a better position in the short- to medium-term. UA has a lot of ERJ-145s and CRJ-200s floating around that need to go away, but AA has just about as many. If anything, perhaps they're both somewhat equally screwed with Delta in a far better position, but I think the effect on PHX is the same. With an all-but-certain decrease in service and a move towards larger aircraft, there will most certainly be fewer flight options and less traffic at PHX. We'll also risk losing links to a lot of smaller markets as the pilot shortage worsens and the 50-seaters withdraw.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 16547 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
I think the impact on PHX from this RJ issue is going to be relatively minimal compared to the larger dynamics at play with PHX economics. It's a lower-yielding hub with a competing hub by a lower-cost carrier, and it serves almost no traffic flow that other AA hubs don't already serve. That's a far bigger issue than RJs (especially since PHX is already among the least-RJ-centric hubs AA has).
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 8):
We'll also risk losing links to a lot of smaller markets as the pilot shortage worsens and the 50-seaters withdraw.

Considering US does not operate the 50 seat RJ's, that AA plans on retiring soon, these aircraft will have no impact on PHX ops, especially over the next 2 years since the airline will not be fully integrated until this time. Once this time approaches, the PHX hub will be ready to be downsized due to network redundancies.

[Edited 2014-02-19 16:20:27]

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16395 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 9):
Considering US does not operate the 50 seat RJ's, that AA plans on retiring soon, these aircraft will have no impact on PHX ops, especially over the next 2 years since the airline will not be fully integrated until this time. Once this time approaches, the PHX hub will be ready to be downsized due to network redundancies.

I wasn't talking about imminent cuts...I was taking about 2-3 years from now. It all depends on how they intend to utilize their aircraft then. Just because the replacements aren't currently going to the US side doesn't mean they won't in a few years time, and by then they'll be cross-fleeting anyway. Furthermore, depending on how severe the pilot shortage actually becomes, the 50-seat aircraft may be most affected due to their unprofitability (in particular the abundance of CRJ200s they contract) and a potential lack of pilots to fly them. So yes, all of that does have an effect on the PHX hub over the next few years in addition to however much downsizing they plan on doing. But as I said, I was not taking near-term. The next 12-24 months should be business as usual, with the only possible effects coming from the pilot shortage.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11529 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16348 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 8):
If anything, perhaps they're both somewhat equally screwed with Delta in a far better position

I don't see how. Per Delta's own press release, the carrier has a hard cap of 325 large RJs. AA currently has either operational or on firm order large RJs totaling 303 tails. And this is for two airplanes that are now roughly the same, and this also assumes AA doesn't exercise any of the options it has outstanding for more large RJs. I'd hardly call that a "far better position" for Delta. AA presently has 332 50-seat RJs in operation (although this number will likely shrink materially this year, anyway), so if one assumes the 90 large RJs on firm order replace 50-seaters on an average 3:2 basis - which I think is reasonable - that brings them down to around 195 50-seat jets. When accounting for some level of existing 50-seat markets getting cut altogether and large RJ markets upgauging to mainline, I would not be at all surprised if AA ends up right around the same place as Delta - about 125-150 50-seaters. Again - don't see any enormous advantage for Delta.

In AA's case, I suspect they'll be able to manage the rapid drawdown of 50-seat flying fairly easily given the ability to upgauge the majority of 50-seat markets to lower-frequency 76-seat markets, and upgauge some of the existing 70-seat markets to mainline, further freeing up large RJ lift - just as Delta is doing. (AA does, after all, still have several hundred new mainline jets arriving in the next five years, on top of the >100 large RJs.)

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 10):
I wasn't talking about imminent cuts...I was taking about 2-3 years from now. It all depends on how they intend to utilize their aircraft then. Just because the replacements aren't currently going to the US side doesn't mean they won't in a few years time, and by then they'll be cross-fleeting anyway.

I agree - as I said, I think the broader economic and strategic issues facing PHX are far bigger issues to overcome than an RJ pilot shortage. I still maintain that PHX is going to shrink as a hub, with or without an RJ pilot shortage.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 10):
Furthermore, depending on how severe the pilot shortage actually becomes, the 50-seat aircraft may be most affected due to their unprofitability (in particular the abundance of CRJ200s they contract) and a potential lack of pilots to fly them.

I don't think it's dependent on anything at this point - I think it's pretty clear. The pilot shortage is going to be severe, and the 50-seat jets are going to be parked precipitously in the coming years.

[Edited 2014-02-20 15:34:09]

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16320 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I don't see how. Per Delta's own press release, the carrier has a hard cap of 325 large RJs.

Yes, but you're forgetting that DL is taking all of AirTran's 717s, which is basically a large RJ. That concession allowed an increase in the scope clause for large RJs, and both of those mean that they will effectively be rid of 50-seaters, along with every aircraft having F.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I agree - as I said, I think the broader economic and strategic issues facing PHX are far bigger issues to overcome than an RJ pilot shortage. I still maintain that PHX is going to shrink as a hub, with or without an RJ pilot shortage.

Right, but I wonder if the pilot shortage may exacerbate the problem and force further cuts, along with losing service to a lot of smaller communities, FLG for example.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I don't think it's dependent on anything at this point - I think it's pretty clear. The pilot shortage is going to be severe, and the 50-seat jets are going to be parked precipitously in the coming years.

Of course, but I was addressing its effect on the PHX hub. The east coast hubs PHL and CLT may be worse off because of the large number of DHC-8s they utilize, and maybe the Saabs? I forget if they still use those. PHX has divested itself from all of those small props, and I imagine those will be the first to go. It may not initially hurt PHX as much as the other two.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11529 posts, RR: 61
Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 16306 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 12):
Yes, but you're forgetting that DL is taking all of AirTran's 717s, which is basically a large RJ.

And AA is taking numerous new A319s, on top of those US already flies, and those are only 16% larger than the DL 717s. (And note: there are multiple recent examples at DL of recently-all-RJ routes seeing upgauges to mainline in the form of ... A319s.) Again - I see no discernible advantage here for DL. And I also further don't think this will have any net effect on the ultimate fate of PHX.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 12):
Of course, but I was addressing its effect on the PHX hub. The east coast hubs PHL and CLT may be worse off because of the large number of DHC-8s they utilize, and maybe the Saabs? I forget if they still use those. PHX has divested itself from all of those small props, and I imagine those will be the first to go. It may not initially hurt PHX as much as the other two.

Okay, but it's a broad network, so it's not necessarily a matter of "PHL and CLT have 50-seaters so those will feel the worst cuts." If tons of 50-seat capacity has to come out of the overall system - which it will - capacity will naturally reallocate across all the hubs regardless of which are immediately affected by the 50-seaters themselves.

[Edited 2014-02-20 16:56:56]

User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16077 times:

Looking over the Maricopa Flood Control District historical images, it appears that Terminal 3 was expanded some time between 1982 and 1986. I always knew about the HP addition but I hadn't known they extended T3-South over 60% and North by almost 30% (to where it stays today). I assume this was done in conjunction with the HP expansion over that time but does anyone have more information on it? I had also forgotten about "the T" at the end of T2.

If you want to waste hours here is the link to their historical aerial image archive.

http://gis.maricopa.gov/MapApp/GIO/AerialHistorical/index.html


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 16010 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 14):

That was very interesting, thanks for that link. I find it amazing how much the airport has changed over the years. Someone that stuck out to me was the 2006 aerial image was the jetway that UA express gate has a jetway on it. I have never knew that there was a jetway there since it is no longer there. When UA express operated of C and D gates they used a outdoor boarding ramp as of a year and a half ago. Also good amount of ZK planes there as well.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15989 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 15):
That was very interesting, thanks for that link. I find it amazing how much the airport has changed over the years. Someone that stuck out to me was the 2006 aerial image was the jetway that UA express gate has a jetway on it. I have never knew that there was a jetway there since it is no longer there. When UA express operated of C and D gates they used a outdoor boarding ramp as of a year and a half ago. Also good amount of ZK planes there as well.

I remember the jetway at gate C. Air Canada used to use that gate quite often with the A319, their 762's used gate 7 usually. I flew out of that gate a few times over the years, it was quite a hike up to a 757.



Allons-y!
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15961 times:

Last I recall using C was for Shuttle by United flights back when that was a thing.

Anyone recall the name of the motel/hotel that was across from Terminal 1?

[Edited 2014-02-24 12:37:39]

User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15931 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 16):
I remember the jetway at gate C. Air Canada used to use that gate quite often with the A319, their 762's used gate 7 usually. I flew out of that gate a few times over the years, it was quite a hike up to a 757

I never noticed it until now and there is really no indication of a jetway ever being there now since that ramp has been resurfaced. When was Air Canada at T2?

So with AA moving out of T3 this week. Only SY and HA remain, seems like a little to much concourse for two airlines that operate once a day.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15925 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18):
never noticed it until now and there is really no indication of a jetway ever being there now since that ramp has been resurfaced. When was Air Canada at T2?

AC used T2 when they first started service to PHX, and continued to use T2 up to around 2005 or 2006 if I recall correctly. UA did all the handling of AC flights while they were at T2, they switched over to Serviceair when they moved to T4. I would go spotting with my dad all the time in the 90s and early 2000s and remember seeing the AC 767-200 at T2 often, among many other long gone airlines and aircraft.



Allons-y!
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 15899 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18):

So with AA moving out of T3 this week. Only SY and HA remain, seems like a little to much concourse for two airlines that operate once a day.

So what are the options? T3-North has basically no room. I'm sure they could squeeze those flights up there if they had to but at what cost. Can a 767 fit at T2 anymore?


User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15885 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 20):
So what are the options? T3-North has basically no room. I'm sure they could squeeze those flights up there if they had to but at what cost. Can a 767 fit at T2 anymore?

SY just moved to T3S from the north concourse, so I doubt they will move back to where they just moved from. The only widebody capable T2 gates I know of are used by UA currently, and are usually full at the times HA operates. I think there's a better chance of HA moving back to T4 again then to T2, but most likely HA and SY will just stay where they are for the time being.



Allons-y!
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15877 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 20):
So what are the options? T3-North has basically no room. I'm sure they could squeeze those flights up there if they had to but at what cost. Can a 767 fit at T2 anymore?

T3 north has no room! There has been a Omni 772 at T2 so a 763 can fit over there but I don't see HA moving to T2. HA should have just kept their ops at gate 24 since the gate can fit a A330 and is close to DL techops. SY share a gate with B6 or NK?



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15858 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 22):

So here we are with T3-South being open a couple hours a day. I fear the TSA not staffing it well enough. I'll find out in a couple weeks when I go to Hawaii.


User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 15764 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 20):
Can a 767 fit at T2 anymore?

Gate 3 can handle up to a 777-200 on the alternate lead-in line.

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 18):
When was Air Canada at T2?

Prior to December 2008.

AA/US co-location will begin tonight (February 25th). First AA flight to arrive at T4 should be AA1125 from ORD.

http://s1.postimg.org/583xp7wj3/photo_1.jpg

http://s28.postimg.org/sod1eu1tp/photo.jpg



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15791 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 23):
So here we are with T3-South being open a couple hours a day. I fear the TSA not staffing it well enough. I'll find out in a couple weeks when I go to Hawaii.

Well when you consider that there is/are/were only three lines for all of T-3S there is going to be a wait. The last time I went to Hawai'i we were in the TSA line for about 15 minutes at about 07:00. This being said, one would think that if they could move both HA and SY over to T-4N this could save a lot on the staffing of T-3.

I just thought of something, would DL ever move part of its operation to T-3S if they run out of room on T-3N. I know it would be splitting the system, but it could give them more stake in PHX as well as they would have extra room for RON aircraft. HA would only need their gate from 22:00 - 08:00 so that would allow DL to have extra room.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 24):
AA/US co-location will begin tonight (February 25th). First AA flight to arrive at T4 should be AA1125 from ORD.

WOW, it has begun.......


User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (5 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15749 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 25):
I just thought of something, would DL ever move part of its operation to T-3S if they run out of room on T-3N

Why did B6 move up to north?


User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15974 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 26):
Why did B6 move up to north?

Yes, HA and SY are the only ones in T3S now with AA moving to T4N. I guess FR, B6 and NK can move south with HA and SY and that would open gates for DL. I guess I just answered my own stupid question.


User currently offlineaustwin From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15956 times:

This is American's press release regarding the move tonite. It says the gates they will use are B7-14. My understanding is they fly regional jets on the LAX route. All the times I've been to Sky Harbor US has used the B gates in the other concourse for theirs. Can the "new gates" handle the RJ's?

http://skyharbor.com/pdf/AmericanAirlinesMove.pdf


User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15932 times:

Quoting austwin (Reply 28):

This is American's press release regarding the move tonite. It says the gates they will use are B7-14. My understanding is they fly regional jets on the LAX route. All the times I've been to Sky Harbor US has used the B gates in the other concourse for theirs. Can the "new gates" handle the RJ's?

http://skyharbor.com/pdf/AmericanAirlinesMove.pdf


B7/9 are already used for RJs. My understanding is that B7 will become primarily a B738 gate with Eagle ops at B9, although in a couple months the Eagle flights will be reduced and presumably fully replaced by US mainline flying to LAX.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15920 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 29):
although in a couple months the Eagle flights will be reduced and presumably fully replaced by US mainline flying to LAX.

Seems logical. I can't remember the last time I flew an RJ to LAX but I'm pretty sure they still fly them there.


User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15910 times:

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 30):

Quoting wn676 (Reply 29):
although in a couple months the Eagle flights will be reduced and presumably fully replaced by US mainline flying to LAX.

Seems logical. I can't remember the last time I flew an RJ to LAX but I'm pretty sure they still fly them there.


US has had YV/OO flights there in the past. I might have spoke too soon though about future plans. US is all mainline currently to LAX but will be brining back RJs in the summer. Looks like a couple of YV -900s.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlinecageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 319 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15852 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 31):

OK, thanks. I don't fly to LAX enough to really know the route.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15697 times:

News is reporting that the AA move to T4 went smoothly last night including the movement of IT systems between both terminals. The news also reported that this was the first hub to move both carriers side by side at the airport. I guess they did not consider JFK as a hub  

User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15604 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 33):
News is reporting that the AA move to T4 went smoothly last night including the movement of IT systems between both terminals. The news also reported that this was the first hub to move both carriers side by side at the airport. I guess they did not consider JFK as a hub

Indeed, the move went smoothly last night. The PHXspottters facebook page has a lot of pictures up of the first T4 arrivals last night. One of the new A321T's stopped in on a medical diversion too.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineaustwin From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15604 times:

Sky Harbor's Facebook page also had pics from the move posted from the Phoenix newspaper.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 36, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15606 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 33):
News is reporting that the AA move to T4 went smoothly last night including the movement of IT systems between both terminals. The news also reported that this was the first hub to move both carriers side by side at the airport. I guess they did not consider JFK as a hub

Speaking of JFK, one of the long-haul A321s made an emergency stop at PHX T4 for med reasons....and it originated (or was destined to?) JFK.


Btw guys...i'll be in PHX from March 6-13, lets plan a spotters day! 



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15535 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 33):
News is reporting that the AA move to T4 went smoothly last night including the movement of IT systems between both terminals.

It went almost flawlessly, especially considering within the first hour there was a medical diversion. AA really hit the head on the nail with all the support they gave.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15513 times:

The now former AA area which housed AA since 1979 is now a ghost town. I saw US taking all the AA equipment over to T4 last night.

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 25):
I just thought of something, would DL ever move part of its operation to T-3S if they run out of room on T-3N. I know it would be splitting the system, but it could give them more stake in PHX as well as they would have extra room for RON aircraft.

I don't see it happening. Maybe they could work a charter flight or something on that end but as for using former AA gates for RONs or live flight operations I do not see happening. DL would have to pay the city for the use of the jetway plus towing RON planes from the south end to the north end would be a nightmare.

If the airport wants to close T3S what I could see is SY uses gate 24, 25, or 26 for their evening flight. HA uses 24 since it has the 767 and A330 lines and for NK's over night ops they use their gate which is 25 and use 26 after the B6 flights have gone.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15453 times:

A321T diversion from last night. N106NN operating AA133.

http://s10.postimg.org/iptvs0yrd/1653338_10103429107627721_114599946_n.jpg



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25125 posts, RR: 22
Reply 40, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15359 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 33):
News is reporting that the AA move to T4 went smoothly last night

Related article with video link covering some of the preparations.
http://www.azcentral.com/travel/arti...n-airlines-moving-day-airline.html


User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15270 times:

Saw the airport folks putting up the new signs at T4 last night. On the SkyTrain a few US workers saw the AA planes over at T4 and said it "looks weird having them at our gates."

Will be nice not to have to deal with the SkyTrain to shuttle bus anymore for AA flights.


User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15031 times:

This is a little FYI for those of you heading to the airport that like to park at the terminal. Sky Harbor is allowing you to pre-pay for terminal parking at 50% off. I used it to pay for the parking for a Hawai'i trip in July and what normally would cost me $200 cost me $109.

http://skyharbor.com/transportationp...ing/PrepaidDiscountParkingApp.htm#


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 43, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14940 times:

When will the Skytrain to T3 open? I haven't heard much yet on it.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineaustwin From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14914 times:

I read that the T3 station will open in early 2015.

User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14780 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
This is a little FYI for those of you heading to the airport that like to park at the terminal. Sky Harbor is allowing you to pre-pay for terminal parking at 50% off. I used it to pay for the parking for a Hawai'i trip in July and what normally would cost me $200 cost me $109.

Cool link. Here's the only issue I see--they charge you a $2 service fee. Subtract that and you're paying the same ($11) as the East Economy garage or T2 Economy.

Still a cool feature and I'll try it when I'm gone for a day and park at the T4 garage.


User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 46, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14669 times:

Quoting chrisair (Reply 45):
Cool link. Here's the only issue I see--they charge you a $2 service fee. Subtract that and you're paying the same ($11) as the East Economy garage or T2 Economy.

Still a cool feature and I'll try it when I'm gone for a day and park at the T4 garage.

While that is true, I normally park at the terminal when I am going to Hawai'i and it cuts down on the time after the flight with an angry wife (dose not like to fly and gets air sick) and two kids (14 & 12) that just want to go home. This saves me the money, but I agree about the service fee as the only interaction is with the person at the garage and in T-3 there are no self-service lanes that I can remember.


User currently offlineaustwin From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14447 times:

West Jet announces service between PHX and YYZ. Link to the news release is below:

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=861


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14343 times:

Quoting austwin (Reply 47):

West Jet announces service between PHX and YYZ. Link to the news release is below:

http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=861


Hmm. I think I said about a month ago that this route likely wouldn't get another carrier. But I did also say that the most likely candidate would be WestJet. So at least I don't have to completely eat my words!

It'll be good to have a little competition on the route, and more int'l service at PHX is always a good thing. Good luck to WestJet!



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14293 times:

Really shocked to see the US A332 is not a big discussion item on this post.... Saw some pics of it on instagram, its good that the former hometown carrier is finally bringing in wide service.


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14222 times:

Anyone know what gate the 330 used in T4? It would be a spectacular picture if the BA 744 and the 330 were adjacent on the high B concourse.

User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 14160 times:

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 50):
Anyone know what gate the 330 used in T4? It would be a spectacular picture if the BA 744 and the 330 were adjacent on the high B concourse.

It's using B-23, so right next to BA at B-25.



Allons-y!
User currently offlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 14052 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 51):
It's using B-23, so right next to BA at B-25.

Are these the only wide body gates in T4, or could the end gates in the other concourses also be used for aircraft larger tan a B757? I am actually hoping that with the increased customer base US/AA would eventually start using widebodies on some of the PHX-Hawai'i runs.


User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13790 times:

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 52):
Are these the only wide body gates in T4, or could the end gates in the other concourses also be used for aircraft larger tan a B757?

A13 and B13 are striped for a 767-200 but AFAIK they would have to shut down the adjacent gates for wingtip clearance, which is not ideal considering how gate constrained they are at the moment with AA taking over the end of N3. I believe A28 is designed to accommodate one as well although a block was never painted.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 13616 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 53):
A13 and B13 are striped for a 767-200 but AFAIK they would have to shut down the adjacent gates for wingtip clearance, which is not ideal considering how gate constrained they are at the moment with AA taking over the end of N3. I believe A28 is designed to accommodate one as well although a block was never painted.

I am sorry if this is a stupid/naive question, but is there any ability to manipulate the gates to allow more widebodies? I noticed that AA's MD's are at the end of B and have huge MD-80 on the ground. and that there are a lot of gates that do not have the markings for AA's 737's

Since there is such few gates able to handle a wide body at T-4, could this preclude HA from moving to T-4 IF and when they transition to a 330 for the PHX-HNL trip?

On a side note, T-3 South looks deserted in the day now with the exclusion of a lone RJ that was RON the last time I was at 40th St and the river bottom to take pictures.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 55, posted (5 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13569 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 49):
Really shocked to see the US A332 is not a big discussion item on this post.... Saw some pics of it on instagram, its good that the former hometown carrier is finally bringing in wide service.

Not only this widebody, but seeing the DL 763 having 2x daily service to MSP (along with the other 4 flights to MSP) is quite impressive to see.

That 330 shocked me to near death when I saw it fly over In-n-out in Tempe last week.

btw it's a shame I couldn't see any of you guys while I was there. I just got back to Ohio tonight and will go back to tokyo in a week and a half.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetravaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13534 times:

I was at terminal 4 today and the addition of American can crowd things up at certain times. Having flown out of PHX since 1970 it was kind of sad to see T3 South looking kind of bare.

User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13510 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 54):
I am sorry if this is a stupid/naive question, but is there any ability to manipulate the gates to allow more widebodies? I noticed that AA's MD's are at the end of B and have huge MD-80 on the ground. and that there are a lot of gates that do not have the markings for AA's 737's

Since there is such few gates able to handle a wide body at T-4, could this preclude HA from moving to T-4 IF and when they transition to a 330 for the PHX-HNL trip?

Yes it's possible and has been done in the past, though not mainly for widebodies as there hasn't been a need. US re-configured their gates at T4N in 2011 with the impending retirement of the B733s, since there were certain gates that could not handle an Airbus. It involved not only moving pavement markings but also the relocation of some fuel pits and jetways; a few jetways had extra tunnel sections added to keep the terminal door location in place, mostly on the even side of the N2/N3 concourses. I've heard T4N will be re-striped (again) to handle more variety in AA's fleet, mainly B738s and Sharklet-equipped Airbuses. In the current iteration of the gate layout, B738 blocks were painted only at gates striped for 757s; the 321T diversion on 2/25 had to park at a gate with a 321 block and a containment zone striped for a 757 as well. So they are pretty limited currently when it comes to gating AA equipment. Supposedly the MD80s will be moved out of PHX sometime in 3Q or maybe 4Q, so I wouldn't expect any more work to be done to accommodate that type.

Re-locating HA to T4 shouldn't pose too much of a challenge although it would be much easier just to keep them away from N4 at the moment. Should B25 and B23 be occupied during HA's ops, B28 should be capable of handling a B763W/A332 while still allowing simultaneous A320 ops at B27 and B26, assuming a new angled J-line is painted and the jetway can meet the swing requirements (all based off a little ACAD drawing I put together, but the wingspan margins should be more than adequate when considering the error in measurement). That would allow AC to park at B27, Y4 at B26/24, WS at B21, and AA/BA at B23/B25. If they really wanted to, I think B19 is also Group-V capable for emergency use at the moment, although that's not part of the common-use area.

[Edited 2014-03-11 21:05:46]


Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3011 posts, RR: 9
Reply 58, posted (5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 13505 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 57):
Supposedly the MD80s will be moved out of PHX sometime in 3Q or maybe 4Q

Crap.
I've been dreading the arrival of that nugget.



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 59, posted (5 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 13480 times:
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Frontier starting CLE-PHX, 3 x weekly, first flight June 13:

http://news.flyfrontier.com/press-re...p-service-cleveland-six-new-cities

"Frontier Airlines Adds Nonstop Service from Cleveland to Six New Cities"

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 13402 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
Frontier starting CLE-PHX, 3 x weekly, first flight June 13:

http://news.flyfrontier.com/press-re...p-service-cleveland-six-new-cities

"Frontier Airlines Adds Nonstop Service from Cleveland to Six New Cities"

mariner


Well...I guess someone had to try. F9 hasn't made literally anything else work over the past couple years, so why start now?



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 61, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13398 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 60):
Well...I guess someone had to try. F9 hasn't made literally anything else work over the past couple years, so why start now?

Oh, I dunno. Frontier at TTN has gone from zero to 53 flights a week in fifteen months and will be at 70 flights a week by June.

http://www.trentonian.com/general-ne...county-pleased-with-airport-growth

"“Frontier Airlines has been overwhelmingly successful at the Trenton-Mercer Airport,” said Watson, who pointed out the carrier’s rapid trajectory, increasing flights from two flights a day in November 2012 to over 50 a week by this April. “They are expecting to launch more flights in May — 60 a week and 70 flights per week by June,” the Director said.

Frontier currently shuffles 375,000 passengers annually to and from the regional airport. The low-cost airline is projecting an increase in flights and destinations, bringing an anticipated 875,000 passengers every year through the airport by 2017, according to Watson."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13387 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 61):

Well I guess if they threw enough darts at the board, something had to stick. Don't get me wrong -- seeking out new markets and being creative can be a good thing, but little they've done has worked and their financials speak volumes on that front. Hopefully their new owners can find a little more financial success, despite their intentions to develop into a ULCC, which I'm not thrilled about. Republic didn't have the first damn clue on how to run an actual airline, and hemorrhaged a hell of a lot of cash in the process.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 63, posted (5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13376 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 62):
Don't get me wrong -- seeking out new markets and being creative can be a good thing, but little they've done has worked and their financials speak volumes on that front.

How can I not "get you wrong"?

They're owned by Indigo Partners now, who are no slouches at this stuff.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13340 times:

Good moves for Frontier. CLE already had very high fares and little LCC competition, and now without the UA hub it is a perfect opportunity for them to step in with some service. I also believe PHX-CLE was one of if not the largest O&D market from PHX without a nonstop flight.

User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13303 times:

If UA coundnt make PHX-CLE work with a plethora of connecting points , why would F9 think it would work?

User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2754 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13327 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 65):

If UA coundnt make PHX-CLE work with a plethora of connecting points , why would F9 think it would work?

F9 will offer $99 fares, where UA offers $500 roundtrip fares....... and F9 will almost certainly fill their planes with that.....

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 67, posted (5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13314 times:
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Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 65):
If UA coundnt make PHX-CLE work with a plethora of connecting points , why would F9 think it would work?

Probably for the same reason that CLE-SEA - which also United dropped - appears to be working, at least in terms of forward bookings.

Frontier has increased CLE-MCO - which United still flies - from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly just four weeks after announcing the route.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAllegiantFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13030 times:

A little disappointed tonight that i didn't make it to see the Qantas charter tonight, i had planned on going 5 months ahead of time!
on a good night tonight seems like a lot of bigger aircraft than the normal 737,a319/20/21 's! we got some 757 767,A332, and two 744's! this must be some sort of record of large aircraft coming into our airport! great to hear!


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12960 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 63):
They're owned by Indigo Partners now, who are no slouches at this stuff.

I thought it was clear that I was speaking to their previous performance. Yes, they are now under new, more competent ownership with a new direction, but only time will tell if they can reverse course on the terrible decisions made over the past five or more years.

I do not think that CLE-PHX will be successful for them relying on a limited O&D market. In my mind, this decision is par for the course with the nonsensical decisions made under the previous owners at Republic. They may not be slouches, but this route is a gamble; even if it does pay off for them, it won't pay out big. Only time will tell, though.

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 65):
If UA coundnt make PHX-CLE work with a plethora of connecting points , why would F9 think it would work?

Maybe UA couldn't make it profitable with their cost structure. Perhaps it has a better chance with an LCC (or soon to become ULCC) with lower operating costs. Having that said, I agree with you. It's clear the majority of UA's PHX-CLE traffic was continuing onto other east coast destinations, so I'm not sure how F9 will manage with purely O&D. Even if they do fill seats, they'll have to sell them cheap. Until they can complete some more of their restructuring, I'm not sure the route can generate enough profit to make it work ... but that's assuming it even turns a profit!

Quoting AllegiantFlyer (Reply 68):
we got some 757 767,A332, and two 744's! this must be some sort of record of large aircraft coming into our airport! great to hear!

*sigh*



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 70, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12949 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 69):
I thought it was clear that I was speaking to their previous performance

Not clear to me. In your original post you made of mention of any change of ownership.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 69):
I do not think that CLE-PHX will be successful for them relying on a limited O&D market.

Virtually all of Frontier's routes out of CLE are O&D markets - there are very few connecting possibilities. Frontier's CLE-MCO is an O&D market, and we know how well that is booking.

But each to their own.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12936 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
Not clear to me. In your original post you made of mention of any change of ownership.

I made mention of it in my second post, actually. I also referred to past years and horrible decisions by Republic on multiple occasions, and referenced the routes and ops you listed previously -- most, if not all, were moves made by the previous management. My only reference to the new ownership was my hope for better financial stability and their intent to develop into a ULCC, as was made quite clear. I hope that helps since I suppose reading comprehension isn't your strong suite.

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
Virtually all of Frontier's routes out of CLE are O&D markets - there are very few connecting possibilities. Frontier's CLE-MCO is an O&D market, and we know how well that is booking.

Really? Anything on the east coast to Orlando has strong bookings when the flights are cheap. That is an entirely meaningless indicator to the performance for a route to PHX.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 72, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12930 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 71):
I made mention of it in my second post, actually. I also referred to past years and horrible decisions by Republic on multiple occasions, and referenced the routes and ops you listed previously -- most, if not all, were moves made by the previous management.

But I first responded to your first post and the position you embraced in that. Given the success that Indigo Partners has has with ULCC airlines over the past several years, I wonder why you would keep referencing Republic, which is no longer involved.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 71):
Really? Anything on the east coast to Orlando has strong bookings when the flights are cheap. That is an entirely meaningless indicator to the performance for a route to PHX.

Even so, CLE-MCO is the only new Frontier route at CLE for which we have some empirical evidence, as opposed to speculation and guesswork, which I prefer to avoid.

Nor do I regard CLE-PHX as particularly thin - it has a few more pax per day than CLE-RSW, CLE-TPA and CLE-FLL.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-17 01:07:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12926 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
But I first responded to your first post and given the success that Indigo Partners has has with ULCC airlines over the past couple of decades, I wonder why you would keep referencing Republic, which is no longer involved.

Simply because the management has changed does not effect immediate change to the company itself, and simply because Indigo has enjoyed past successes does not guarantee a similar result with F9. It is a long troubled company, which is a fact that is unchanged, as of now. I reference Republic because just about everything currently in place structurally comes from them. So yes, they are very relevant for the time being despite no longer being in the management suite.

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
Even so, CLE-MCO is the only new Frontier route at CLE for which we have some empirical evidence, as opposed to speculation and guesswork, which I prefer to avoid.

But it's still relatively meaningless evidence because Orlando is a completely different market than Phoenix as it relates to Cleveland. Fact is, the only evidence on which to base the CLE-PHX market is UA's longstanding service ranging from mediocre success to mild failure. As I said previously, F9 has a higher probability for success due to their lower cost structure, but it doesn't change the fact that the market is hugely seasonal, which will not help turn a consistently high level of profit.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 74, posted (5 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12940 times:
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Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 73):
Simply because the management has changed does not effect immediate change to the company itself, and simply because Indigo has enjoyed past successes does not guarantee a similar result with F9.

There is one huge change. Frontier will now be a properly capitalised company, which has not been true for many years.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 73):
But it's still relatively meaningless evidence because Orlando is a completely different market than Phoenix as it relates to Cleveland.

It may be "relatively meaningless" but it is still hard evidence as opposed to speculation and guesswork.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 73):
As I said previously, F9 has a higher probability for success due to their lower cost structure, but it doesn't change the fact that the market is hugely seasonal, which will not help turn a consistently high level of profit.

I cannot predict the future. If the market is so seasonal then I assume that Frontier will adjust with the seasons, which has worked very well for them this past year or two.

The Mexican resort destinations are extremely seasonal, too, but there is darn good money to be made in those seasons.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-17 02:01:47]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 75, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12846 times:

I know Treebeard787 posted some of the QF 744 photos he took on the PHX Spotters page; did anyone else get any photos? Post them to our facebook or post them here (or both!)


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 76, posted (5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12623 times:

Well it looks like KPHX is still the 10th busiest airport in the US. It had a 19,500,000 passengers, but was down 0.2% from 2012's 19,540,000

http://www.azcentral.com/story/nowde...usiest-airport-in-country/6610909/


User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12633 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting EricR (Reply 33):

JFK is still listed in AA pubs and other places as a hub, and LGA a 'focus' city - but with the combined operations at both airports - both have grown and do have 'hub' status. Glad to see the movement together in PHX in T4, and the movement already at JFK, MIA and other airports following.

Impressive list of cities as hubs and/or focus cities for the new AA - DFW, CLT, ORD, PHX, PHL, MIA, LAX, JFK, LGA, and DCA - and significantly increased ops in BOS especially, while growth in other markets as well - nice to see the airline spreading its wings! Look forward to more good things happening in 2014 and beyond for the new AA!


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 78, posted (5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 12504 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 75):

I know Treebeard787 posted some of the QF 744 photos he took on the PHX Spotters page; did anyone else get any photos? Post them to our facebook or post them here (or both!)

I'm surprised no one has posted them here. I unfortunately had to miss them -- I was out of town, so my flight back in only missed them by a day!

I'd be very appreciative of anyone who took the time to post a couple of pics here, and I know I'm not alone in that!



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3011 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12336 times:

Temporary moving of the east cell phone lot. Looks good as a spotting location!
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Sky-Har...c-around-Terminal-4-251458161.html



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12308 times:

Quoting 4holer (Reply 79):
Temporary moving of the east cell phone lot. Looks good as a spotting location!

Same thing they did over Christmas. That spot used to be the 42nd Street employee parking lot.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12280 times:

4 sun country and 3 republic charters today at Laughlin/Bullhead.

Side note, article about Tuscon airport. Article says TUS could add 20 flights a day if the airline didn't lose people to PhX and IWA.

http://m.azstarnet.com/business/loca...3f11e49fe6c.html?mobile_touch=true


User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 82, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12252 times:

Quoting AADFWFlyer (Reply 77):
Glad to see the movement together in PHX in T4, and the movement already at JFK, MIA and other airports following.

From personal experience this weekend in ORD, it needs to happen soon there. We were flying US back to PHX but wanted to drop by the Admiral’s Club since US doesn’t have a club at ORD. It’s only about a 20 minute walk from the H/K club to the awful US gates over by the UA RJ gates.

Please, please, please move US over to AA’s side of the house. Soon. I’m sure AA/US is connecting people through there on both airlines. Walking from one side of the airport to the other in order to connect is unacceptable in an airport the size of ORD.



PHX based
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12081 times:

Will US's 330 PHX-CLT red eye service continue indefinitely or is this seasonal equipment?

How would B6 fair if they were start PHX-FLL redeye service to compliment their jfk & bos routes? I think it could be good for their Caribbean bound pax. I think one their E190ARs could do the route initially.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12044 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 83):

Will US's 330 PHX-CLT red eye service continue indefinitely or is this seasonal equipment?

How would B6 fair if they were start PHX-FLL redeye service to compliment their jfk & bos routes? I think it could be good for their Caribbean bound pax. I think one their E190ARs could do the route initially.

I think the A332 service ends very soon -- in the next couple of weeks or less. I managed to get on it last week fortunately, but I was surprised there was only a stupid snack basket in F (UA always has cold plate meals on redeyes) and for some stupid reason they had the IFE shut off!

I doubt B6 would add a route to FLL. Not only is it a leisure-to-leisure market, but B6 doesn't have a big enough presence (loyalty-wise) in PHX to make the flight successful like WN does. I'm almost positive there's no way they could do it with an E190 either -- it would have to be an A320 and they'd have a hard time filling it profitably. If B6 adds any new service at PHX, I would guess it would be either OAK or LGB, but they've been reluctant to enter those markets because they're pretty cutthroat in PHX. For the foreseeable future, I don't think we'll see anything other than JFK and BOS.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11979 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 84):
'm almost positive there's no way they could do it with an E190 either

AC does YYZ-SEA with E 190 which has distance of 2097 miles (5hrs 15 min flight) ( I do not know if its payload restricted). I do not see PHX- FLL being a problem only at 1972 mi with a B6 190 but the winds adds a little complexity to it


User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11973 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
AC does YYZ-SEA with E 190 which has distance of 2097 miles (5hrs 15 min flight) ( I do not know if its payload restricted). I do not see PHX- FLL being a problem only at 1972 mi with a B6 190 but the winds adds a little complexity to it

It could be restricted in PHX due to temperature depending on departure time. According to stats that I have found on the E-190....

STD: 3,334 km (1,800 nmi)
LR: 4,260 km (2,300 nmi)
AR: 4,448 km (2,402 nmi)

with a range

STD: 3,334 km (1,800 nmi)
LR: 4,260 km (2,300 nmi)
AR: 4,448 km (2,402 nmi)

Weight
47,790 kg (105,360 lb) (STD)
50,300 kg (110,900 lb) (LR)
51,800 kg (114,200 lb) (AR)


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 85):
AC does YYZ-SEA with E 190 which has distance of 2097 miles (5hrs 15 min flight) ( I do not know if its payload restricted). I do not see PHX- FLL being a problem only at 1972 mi with a B6 190 but the winds adds a little complexity to it

I guarantee you it would take a penalty especially in the summer, and with the higher CASM of the E190, it would be damn hard to make money with it. Not to mention it's a route between two leisure markets competing against an airline with a huge loyalty base like WN. WN with its 737s and lower CASM could offer lower fares and achieve a higher profit, so even if it is possible for the E190 to operate the route (which it could but with issues), to do so profitably would be extremely unlikely.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11911 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 83):
How would B6 fair if they were start PHX-FLL redeye service to compliment their jfk & bos routes? I think it could be good for their Caribbean bound pax. I think one their E190ARs could do the route initially.

B6 have always seemed to have a hard time with their PHX service, they used to have 2 daily JFK flights, but couldn't make the 2nd flight work and reverted to just having the red-eye. Same goes for BOS, it's just been a daily red-eye since it started. I think you'd see a 2nd JFK frequency return or the addition of LGB service before any low yielding Florida flights.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (5 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11799 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 777stl (Reply 82):

I agree, as they should move the ORD gates ASAP - for the size of an airport/hub for AA/US - should be next on the list in my opinion. Will let you know if I hear anything, as will post.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 90, posted (5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11650 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 88):
B6 have always seemed to have a hard time with their PHX service, they used to have 2 daily JFK flights, but couldn't make the 2nd flight work and reverted to just having the red-eye. Same goes for BOS, it's just been a daily red-eye since it started. I think you'd see a 2nd JFK frequency return or the addition of LGB service before any low yielding Florida flights.

  

They don't have the loyalty base in PHX that they have on the east coast and in California to make that work profitably. The fact that they've clearly intentionally avoided starting up flights from PHX to LGB or OAK tell me that they're not interested in expanding PHX outside of their existing JFK and BOS routes for the time being. Even BOS hasn't really been around for that long -- for years it was only 1-2 daily JFK. I would think LGB/OAK would be a lot more likely than FLL because the yields to FLL would be terrible and they'd probably have a hard time filling airplanes. They've never had significant ops in PHX and I highly doubt they will anytime soon.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11501 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 90):
They've never had significant ops in PHX and I highly doubt they will anytime soon.

I could see them adding LGB or OAK if US scales back those routes as part of PHX cuts. The tricky thing is that both of those destinations are unique to PHX in the new AA so I don't see them cutting those particular routes as much as maybe some others.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11459 times:

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 91):

Right. Between AA/US and WN, they both have a pretty solid lock on those markets. Something pretty major would probably have to change for B6 to consider entering the mix, because without something changing, they'd struggle. They hold their own with routes from JFK and BOS, but for the time being, that's about all they can do successfully. They'd definitely go for LGB and/or OAK before they'd ever consider FLL, though.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (5 months 12 hours ago) and read 11365 times:

A Super Guppy is en-route to KIWA with an ETA of 6:03PM.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA941



Allons-y!
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (5 months 9 hours ago) and read 11320 times:

AC will turn PHX into a "Rouge" city with services from YVR, YYC & YYZ

http://www.thestar.com/business/2014...ce_from_vancouver_and_calgary.html


User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 3011 posts, RR: 9
Reply 95, posted (5 months 7 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 93):
A Super Guppy is en-route to KIWA with an ETA of 6:03PM.

CRAP!! I wish I'd seen this earlier! I think I heard it here in Gilbert but didn't go out to see it! Nuts!



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (5 months 6 hours ago) and read 11220 times:

Quoting 4holer (Reply 95):
CRAP!! I wish I'd seen this earlier! I think I heard it here in Gilbert but didn't go out to see it! Nuts!

It's still there, they are going to leave sometime in the morning.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (5 months 5 hours ago) and read 11209 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 96):
It's still there, they are going to leave sometime in the morning.

Are they making their way eastbound?


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 98, posted (5 months 2 hours ago) and read 11169 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 94):

AC will turn PHX into a "Rouge" city with services from YVR, YYC & YYZ

http://www.thestar.com/business/2014...ce_from_vancouver_and_calgary.html

You sure it's all three? The way the article is worded, it seems like only YYZ will switch to Rouge as far as PHX service is concerned. The article appears to say YVR/YYC will switch to Rouge for LAS, LAX, SFO, and ANC, while PHX and SAN will get Rouge from YYZ. I would imagine this would be to directly compete as a LCC with WestJet adding service on the route soon.

If YVR and YYC isn't switching from PHX now, I can only assume it will happen very soon anyway. That would appear or be the trend, as they're just doing the same silly crap every European legacy is doing.

With PHX, I have to admit it does make sense given the number of snowbirds who visit or live in PHX during the nine habitable months of the year, because they're looking for cheap flights to fly back and forth. That's why WestJet has done so well here, and that's why DL has always managed to capture a big portion of the lift to/from the north to PHX.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

Will the US hangar in PHX bear the AA name anytime soon or will that have to wait until they officially join in 2015? I'm not aware of any operational or regulatory reason why the US name cant be changed before 2015.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 100, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11122 times:

I’ll be curious to see how well Rouge works for AC, considering very few airlines have been able to make the LCC airline within an airline concept work successfully. PHX does seem like the perfect destination for such a carrier, though.


PHX based
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11109 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 97):
Are they making their way eastbound?

Yeah, they are heading to AUS today.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 93):
A Super Guppy is en-route to KIWA with an ETA of 6:03PM.

That was what that was..... Damn, I was going to a meeting for my wife and saw something going to IWA that I had no idea what it was but it was big, white and slow. I just caught a glimpse of her on her downwind leg.


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11064 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 98):
You sure it's all three? The way the article is worded, it seems like only YYZ will switch to Rouge as far as PHX

In second paragraph is states "Seasonal service from Vancouver and Calgary to Phoenix will begin next December." I was able to pull up YVR-PHX flight on Rouge during december. So yes all three cities will go Rouge to PHX.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10962 times:

So it looks like Swissport will be parking most of their hydrant trucks in favor of hydrant carts at T3 and T2.


PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 105, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10949 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 103):

Ah, ok thanks. My iPad brought up the iPad version of the article and it didn't display that paragraph, so I missed that part.

So I guess Air Canada is technically out then. That's a weird thought. I wonder if Rouge will be as short-lived as every other LCC experiment over the last 20 years. Germanwings and Vueling appear to be in it for the long haul in Europe, but the ability for a legacy to spawn a LCC has yet to profitably materialize in North America. Delta, United, Continental, and US Air certainly never managed to make it work, some in multiple attempts. This is Air Canada's what -- second or third attempt? Time will tell if it works out, I suppose. I think it will tend to be a more successful model for the Phoenix market though.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10897 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 105):
Germanwings and Vueling appear to be in it for the long haul in Europe, but the ability for a legacy to spawn a LCC has yet to profitably materialize in North America. Delta, United, Continental, and US Air certainly never managed to make it work, some in multiple attempts

I don’t *think* there’s been a success yet. DL’s Song and United’s Ted failed relatively quickly. I’m not sure it was surprising considering both largely still had their parent legacy’s cost structure, which sort of defeats the purpose of becoming an LCC in the first place. If you count Jazz, although it was more of a regional carrier than an LCC, I suppose this is AC’s second go around with this concept.



PHX based
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10828 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 106):
I don’t *think* there’s been a success yet. DL’s Song and United’s Ted failed relatively quickly. I’m not sure it was surprising considering both largely still had their parent legacy’s cost structure, which sort of defeats the purpose of becoming an LCC in the first place. If you count Jazz, although it was more of a regional carrier than an LCC, I suppose this is AC’s second go around with this concept.

There hasn't been a success yet, unless I'm forgetting something. United also had United Shuttle to go against WN, which also flopped miserably. Ted wasn't a bad idea, but didn't have the best execution. It at least stuck around for longer than all of the others. Song tried to fight B6 but just never got there. Song took too many ideas from B6's playbook and didn't add enough originality; had they done that, it might have had a better chance for success. They also had a pretty godawful marketing campaign that probably didn't help matters. There was also MetroJet and Continental Lite...I'm sure there were others. They're all just poorly planned gimmicks aimed at potentially damaging their target competitor, but I think its proven itself to be a failing method.

Air Canada previously had Zip and Air Canada Tango as LCC concepts, both within the last decade or so. Both failed badly. I'm not sure I'd count Jazz, even though it was spun off into an independent brand. I would consider Rouge to be their third go-around at an LCC. This time they seem to be putting a lot more effort into the scheme, but I'm still unconvinced they can make the economics work, particularly in attempting to stack up against WestJet.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 108, posted (4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10805 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 107):
Air Canada previously had Zip and Air Canada Tango as LCC concepts

Ahh yeah, I forgot about Zip and Tango.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 107):
I would consider Rouge to be their third go-around at an LCC. This time they seem to be putting a lot more effort into the scheme, but I'm still unconvinced they can make the economics work, particularly in attempting to stack up against WestJet.

From the very little I know about it, Rouge seems to be a separate subsidiary, which might bode well for it if they can differentiate themselves enough from mainline AC. Trying to run an airline within an airline though, as history as shown, doesn't seem to be viable.



PHX based
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10709 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 108):
From the very little I know about it, Rouge seems to be a separate subsidiary, which might bode well for it if they can differentiate themselves enough from mainline AC. Trying to run an airline within an airline though, as history as shown, doesn't seem to be viable.

Exactly. They seem to have taken a page from Lufthansa with Germanwings and IAG with Vueling. It'll make for a lower cost structure than a simple "spin off" like Song, Ted, or Shuttle by United/United Shuttle.

What bothers me and a lot of frequent fliers is that they won't have to honor any elite benefits (mainline or alliance), they can get away with higher bag fees and not honoring free/discounted bags normally given by the mainline airline, giving out significantly lower or no mileage rewards, and have an excuse for poor service because it's "no frills". Among other things, of course.

The result is that it pisses off a lot of customers, particularly high mile/high value fliers who aren't given another option on many short- to medium-haul routes now. That's what pissed off UA elites with Ted, because so many legacy routes were flat out replaced by Ted with no opportunity to upgrade or book a higher class of service. What LH, BA/IB, and AC are doing is taking it a step further by screwing over all of the customers loyal to the mainline brand (not just elite or wanting F class), especially those who value their rewards accounts or don't fancy the LCC model. The only people this won't piss off are infrequent fliers, which means my most accounts, it will work fine for PHX. But LAX? I'm not sure that's the best idea. What they're seemingly ignoring (and UA is guilty of this too) is that infrequent fliers don't pay the bills -- you have to cater to all subsets of passengers, not lump everyone together and force them to fly at a lower standard.

I know that LH, BA/IB, and AC need a way to bring down costs to boost profitability on the short/medium-haul side, but I'm still unconvinced this is the way to accomplish that. Especially for LH and IAG, it'll alienate customers to the point of potentially losing those customers' long-haul flying as a result, most likely to ME3 carriers, who still value passengers and their elites.

Like Tango, I don't think Rouge will last for more than a few years, maybe less. Despite the different approach and lower costs, I think they're still going to lose out to WestJet. Either way, it'll be interesting to see WestJet and Rouge fight over the Canada-PHX LCC market. Maybe we'll be able to get some new destinations.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 110, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10616 times:

So what brought the Guppy to AZA? I clearly missed that one haha


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10587 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 110):
So what brought the Guppy to AZA? I clearly missed that one haha

It made an overnight fuel stop here I believe. As I understand it, they were carrying a new type of fuel tank that Boeing built, and it was headed to Texas for some testing.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10580 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 105):
Ah, ok thanks. My iPad brought up the iPad version of the article and it didn't display that paragraph, so I missed that pa

Apple at it again, determining what you can and cannot do (or read in this case)..   


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 113, posted (4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 10530 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 111):
It made an overnight fuel stop here I believe. As I understand it, they were carrying a new type of fuel tank that Boeing built, and it was headed to Texas for some testing.

The Guppy pretty much runs around parts for the Orion spacecraft, doesn't it? Is this related or is it something else?

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 112):
Apple at it again, determining what you can and cannot do (or read in this case)..

No kidding! Apple needs to quit making commercials showing what their products can do, and make commercials showing what they can't do. Maybe they'd have a hard time fitting that in 30 seconds...



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinePSAJet17 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10484 times:

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 111):
It made an overnight fuel stop here I believe. As I understand it, they were carrying a new type of fuel tank that Boeing built, and it was headed to Texas for some testing.

The SuperGuppy was carrying a composite rocket fuel tank to the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville Alabama. This is part of the Space Launch System (SLS) being developed here for future deep space launches including the new Orion spacecraft.


User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10460 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 113):
No kidding! Apple needs to quit making commercials showing what their products can do, and make commercials showing what they can't do. Maybe they'd have a hard time fitting that in 30 seconds...

They should make an app for it.."What Apple Cant do" available now on itunes. LOL


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10408 times:

Quoting PSAJet17 (Reply 114):
The SuperGuppy was carrying a composite rocket fuel tank to the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville Alabama. This is part of the Space Launch System (SLS) being developed here for future deep space launches including the new Orion spacecraft.

I figured it had to do something with Orion. I wasn't aware that it currently tasked with any other missions aside from supporting the Orion program. Thanks for the info!

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 115):
They should make an app for it.."What Apple Cant do" available now on itunes. LOL

I can here Steve Jobs' turtleneck rolling over in its grave...



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 117, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

Guys, keep an eye out in the next few weeks. I've heard a rumor some of the NH 744D will arrive at MZJ or GYR


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 118, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10160 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 117):
Guys, keep an eye out in the next few weeks. I've heard a rumor some of the NH 744D will arrive at MZJ or GYR

One already went to TUP, how many are still left to ferry over?



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 119, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10090 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 78):
I'd be very appreciative of anyone who took the time to post a couple of pics here, and I know I'm not alone in that!

A couple of mine. Wish I could have found a way to include both aircraft since OEJ took so long to depart but the angle just wasn't there.  



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 120, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9975 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 119):

Great pics! Thanks for the post. I wish I had been in town to see them.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineak From United States of America, joined May 2006, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9785 times:

Working in the backyard this early evening around 1720 and heard the unmistakable sound of a Starship. I looked up and sure enough there it was on final for RWY 9 (L/C/R) for KAZA/KIWA. Anyone know anything about which one this is? Anyone on the ground over there have any info on this one? I'd like to snap some pic of it in the morning if it's still there.


" I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9703 times:

Quoting ak (Reply 121):
Working in the backyard this early evening around 1720 and heard the unmistakable sound of a Starship. I looked up and sure enough there it was on final for RWY 9 (L/C/R) for KAZA/KIWA. Anyone know anything about which one this is? Anyone on the ground over there have any info on this one? I'd like to snap some pic of it in the morning if it's still there.

There aren't any Starship's at IWA at the moment, you probably saw this http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N134EC A P180 arrival from KHOU at 5:25PM this evening.



Allons-y!
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9597 times:

And there is no runway 9 at IWA. They are 12L,C,R and 30 L,C,R.

User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 124, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9392 times:

Last night and two weeks ago I flew US back from DEN and LAX and both times when we arrived during the late night arrival bank it seemed that they were having trouble finding enough gates to meet flight obligations. From LAX we sat in the penalty box for about 30 minutes after arriving 10 minutes early. Then from DEN we arrived 20 minutes ahead of schedule and waited about 25 minutes. Is this normal for the late night bank relative to before the merger? Or is this a product of the heavy RON operation that AA has as a result from moving to T4? Also, on a side note, Does US not use the high B gates at all for the Airbus'. Because it seemed there were a number of gates on the International end that were not in use at all.

User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 125, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9374 times:

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 124):
Last night and two weeks ago I flew US back from DEN and LAX and both times when we arrived during the late night arrival bank it seemed that they were having trouble finding enough gates to meet flight obligations. From LAX we sat in the penalty box for about 30 minutes after arriving 10 minutes early. Then from DEN we arrived 20 minutes ahead of schedule and waited about 25 minutes. Is this normal for the late night bank relative to before the merger? Or is this a product of the heavy RON operation that AA has as a result from moving to T4?

It's fairly normal for that complex and only made worse by the co-location. I know US had to rely heavily on remote parking for RONs during the March flex operation; AA's ops take up about 7 gates each night.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 124):
Because it seemed there were a number of gates on the International end that were not in use at all.

The N4 end gates (B23 around to B24) are owned by the City, so as I understand it they're charged additional fees to use them. They try to avoid using them for domestic ops.

[Edited 2014-04-07 08:21:17]

[Edited 2014-04-07 08:22:26]


Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 126, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9075 times:

It seems as if the DC-10 forest fighting plane was at IWA yesterday. I saw it from the 202, but when I passes at 10:00 the wind was blowing and it was hard to see from all of the dust.

User currently offlinetravaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9091 times:

Every Day in the morning there are 6 to 8 US airbuses in the penalty box. Sometimes for 30 Plus minutes. This happens 7 days a week about 10 am

User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 128, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

Quoting travaz (Reply 127):
Every Day in the morning there are 6 to 8 US airbuses in the penalty box. Sometimes for 30 Plus minutes. This happens 7 days a week about 10 am

The infamous Complex 3/4.

US schedules ~40 departures (mostly eastbound) within 10 minutes of ~30 arrivals (mostly from points east).



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinechrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 2093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 129, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8980 times:

Quoting travaz (Reply 127):
Every Day in the morning there are 6 to 8 US airbuses in the penalty box. Sometimes for 30 Plus minutes. This happens 7 days a week about 10 am

This has been going on since I started flying out of PHX in 2001. Note to self: if flying USAir to PHX, arrive before 9a or after 12p.


User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 130, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8749 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 126):
It seems as if the DC-10 forest fighting plane was at IWA yesterday. I saw it from the 202, but when I passes at 10:00 the wind was blowing and it was hard to see from all of the dust.

According to 10 Tanker's FB, they've positioned a DC10 at IWA.



PHX based
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8726 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 130):
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 126):
It seems as if the DC-10 forest fighting plane was at IWA yesterday. I saw it from the 202, but when I passes at 10:00 the wind was blowing and it was hard to see from all of the dust.

According to 10 Tanker's FB, they've positioned a DC10 at IWA.

That's correct, it's been flying today. I tried to catch it depart this afternoon, but I only got a few shots over the fence and missed the take-off. There are two Neptune's here as well.



Allons-y!
User currently offlineAllegiantFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

Im sorry but I have to bring this up, even though most of us East Vally guys hate to think of it.
IWA - I was really expecting F9 to do really good but not long after their announcement NK decided to be the jerk and announce the same route. F9 didnt return. And NK kept the route for awhile.
So i was just wondering what you guys think, Would F9 still be around if NK didn't start competition at IWA? even if they downsized to a E170?


User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 133, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8625 times:

Quoting AllegiantFlyer (Reply 132):
Im sorry but I have to bring this up, even though most of us East Vally guys hate to think of it.
IWA - I was really expecting F9 to do really good but not long after their announcement NK decided to be the jerk and announce the same route. F9 didnt return. And NK kept the route for awhile.
So i was just wondering what you guys think, Would F9 still be around if NK didn't start competition at IWA? even if they downsized to a E170?

In a word: No. A lot of F9's decisions under RAH's direction were shots in the dark, at best. I think the concept had merit, but I don't think they were capable of executing under their previous management -- mostly because they couldn't really make much of anything work. It was a failure of execution throughout, particularly in marketing their presence (at least from my point-of-view). An E170 would have made it even more difficult to generate sufficient profit on the route due to the very low yields and the higher CASM for the type. Fewer seats doesn't better the opportunity for profit if your break even load factor is ridiculously high trying to fight off a truly slimmed-down budget carrier like NK. All things being fair (e.g. NK having minded their own business and allowing F9 to monopolize the route), I'm still not confident they'd have been profitable. Under the new management, their odds are much better, but I doubt we'll see them return to IWA (thanks for calling it that, by the way.. "AZA" drives me nuts for some irrational reason!).

That's my take, anyway.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offline93Sierra From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8579 times:

I heard their avg load factor was like 84 percent out of Gateway.

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 135, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8507 times:

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 134):

I heard their avg load factor was like 84 percent out of Gateway.

Yikes! That's pretty decent to have then withdrawn from the market. Their costs were just too high compared to NK to compete on price, I suppose.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 136, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 135):
Yikes! That's pretty decent to have then withdrawn from the market. Their costs were just too high compared to NK to compete on price, I suppose.

What is the cost of OPS at a place like IWA vs PHX? I would think all of the fee's would be less to get more traffic to use IWA.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 130):
According to 10 Tanker's FB, they've positioned a DC10 at IWA.
Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 131):
That's correct, it's been flying today. I tried to catch it depart this afternoon, but I only got a few shots over the fence and missed the take-off. There are two Neptune's here as well.

Thank you, I was going to being my camera and shoot at IWA after getting my wife's car serviced, but the winds were wild and the dust everywhere.


User currently offlinedlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8437 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 136):
What is the cost of OPS at a place like IWA vs PHX? I would think all of the fee's would be less to get more traffic to use IWA.

Much cheaper. I believe IWA wavies some landing and gate fees.
http://www.phxmesagateway.org/AirlineOpportunities.aspx

I was thinking that F9 would move all or most of their operation from PHX to IWA. With NK gone now maybe they can restart the market.



PHX Ramp, hottest place on earth
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 138, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8419 times:
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Quoting AllegiantFlyer (Reply 132):
Would F9 still be around if NK didn't start competition at IWA? even if they downsized to a E170?

Not with an E170 or even the E190, both of which are almost impossible to make money with on Frontier's (or any airlines) lower fares - which is why they're no longer flying fro Frontier.

All things being equal, Frontier might have stayed, but for the spoiler, Spirit. At least, that Frontier might have stayed.

Whether it would still be true is open to question, because the new owner, William Franke, comes from Phoenix, and I don't know what his attitude is yet.

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-15 17:02:42]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 139, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8403 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 136):
What is the cost of OPS at a place like IWA vs PHX? I would think all of the fee's would be less to get more traffic to use IWA.

Much, much cheaper. IWA offers incentives that PHX would not unless the city felt it could benefit without pissing off other airlines. IWA has historically waived landing fees for a year or more along with reduced parking or usage fees. The airport has low overhead costs due to operating basic facilities, and can profitably operate from concessions, passenger parking fees, and passenger usage charges alone to compensate.

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
Not with an E170 or even the E190, both of which are almost impossible to make money with on Frontier's (or any airlines) lower fares - which is why they're no longer flying fro Frontier.

   The economics don't really work out for them. JetBlue makes the E190 work, but they're operated on higher yielding routes with a different customer base. Between the A318s and later the E-Jets, the old F9 was frequently saddled with airplanes that couldn't turn a profit. It was the equivalent of being a neighborhood store selling at big box store prices -- doesn't work out.

Quoting mariner (Reply 138):
All things being equal, Frontier might have stayed, but for the spoiler, Spirit. At least, that Frontier might have stayed.


They may have stayed and maybe even survived, but I don't think the new management would have kept them on the route for long. The yields are just too crap and they can perform better serving PHX alone.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25086 posts, RR: 85
Reply 140, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8395 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 139):
The economics don't really work out for them. JetBlue makes the E190 work, but they're operated on higher yielding routes with a different customer base. Between the A318s and later the E-Jets, the old F9 was frequently saddled with airplanes that couldn't turn a profit. It was the equivalent of being a neighborhood store selling at big box store prices -- doesn't work out.

  

Although even Jetblue has issues with the E190:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ut-into-jetblue39s-profits-385172/

Embraer maintenance costs cut into JetBlue's profits

I had a great deal of sympathy for what Republic tried to do, but the escalating price of fuel was a major factor in the failure, as BB said. When Republic started the venture (when it acquired Midwest) oil was at about $50 bbl.

So in the spring of 2011, Republic did a review of the fleet, at the then high price of oil ($120 bbl) and with Frontier's lower fares. The A320 came out as the clear winner in terms of break-even load factor at just over 80%, with the A319 not too far behind (from memory about 86%). The E190 was about 95% and the E170 was in excess of 100%, meaning it couldn't make money even if the planes were full.

This review was the basis of the entire restructure of Frontier (to ULCC) before putting it on the market.

There is also a question mark over the A319. The Airbus order stands at 60 x A320Neo plus 20 x A319Neo, but that is already changed from 40 of each and Indigo has made (soft) noises about the A321. Noises have also been made about the A320 at TTN if the runway clearance issues can be resolved, which would diminish the need for the A319.

All the changes Indigo has made so far have been distinct but subtle, especially with regard to yield management, and while TTN has been embraced, the move into CLE, and to a lesser extent STL/MDW, may - may - mean a move away from tertiary airports, and more to primary airports. If there is another focus city within the next twelve months, I would expect it to be at a primary airport.

So - yes:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 139):
They may have stayed and maybe even survived, but I don't think the new management would have kept them on the route for long. The yields are just too crap and they can perform better serving PHX alone.

I think that may be true.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinetreebeard787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8384 times:

Speaking of Frontier, flight 742 PHX-DEN had a contained engine failure this morning, it ended up rejecting the take-off from 07L.


Allons-y!
User currently offlinetravaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 8380 times:

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 137):
I was thinking that F9 would move all or most of their operation from PHX to IWA. With NK gone now maybe they can restart the market.

Why cut yourself off from a large part of the market. PHX is nice and central. I won't drive all the way to IWA from the west valley to save a few bucks.


User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 143, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8326 times:

There are far more people in the east valley than there is in the west valley. Between Tempe, Gilbert, Chandler, and Mesa alone, there are well over a million people - more than enough to support token air service out of iWA. And that's not including Scottsdale, the eastern portions of the city of Phoenix, and the smaller fringe suburbs in the east valley.


PHX based
User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8242 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 143):
Between Tempe, Gilbert, Chandler, and Mesa alone, there are well over a million people - more than enough to support token air service out of iWA. And that's not including Scottsdale, the eastern portions of the city of Phoenix, and the smaller fringe suburbs in the east valley.

PHX is way more convenient for anyone that lives West of Arizona Ave (SR87) unless airfare is significantly different. The major areas that IWA should be tapping into are the Eastern portions of Mesa and Gilbert, Santan Valley, Apache Junction, Florence, Coolidge, as well as Superior, Miami, and Glober to a lessor extent.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 145, posted (4 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8091 times:

AZA couldn't keep NK service...that's the thing that has me concerned about AZA.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 146, posted (4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 145):
AZA couldn't keep NK service...that's the thing that has me concerned about AZA.

Yeah, make no mistake, AZA is never going to explode in growth because there really is nothing wrong with PHX. Sky Harbor isn’t slot constrained, it isn’t expensive and it’s more accessible for a large portion of the region given how far east AZA is. In short, there’s no reason *not* to use KPHX.

However, that doesn’t mean a niche player like G4 can’t make a successful go at AZA and I don’t think their success hinges on whether the west valley patronizes them either. I’m sure G4, NK, F9 and whoever else uses the airport never planned on their catchment area including Avondale or Sun City.



PHX based
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 147, posted (4 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 146):
Yeah, make no mistake, AZA is never going to explode in growth because there really is nothing wrong with PHX. Sky Harbor isn’t slot constrained, it isn’t expensive and it’s more accessible for a large portion of the region given how far east AZA is. In short, there’s no reason *not* to use KPHX.

However, that doesn’t mean a niche player like G4 can’t make a successful go at AZA and I don’t think their success hinges on whether the west valley patronizes them either. I’m sure G4, NK, F9 and whoever else uses the airport never planned on their catchment area including Avondale or Sun City.

PHX has room for growth especially with the lack of anyone other than HA using T-3 south. PHX is in a great location for the whole valley and is easy to get to via I-10, SR-143 or 202

I went out yesterday and even though the weather was bad, I did get pictures of N8624J or WN's new scriminar wingtips plane. It seems as she is being used a lot in PHX.

[Edited 2014-04-19 05:59:35]

[Edited 2014-04-19 06:01:40]

User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (4 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7774 times:

Do most new plane for WN now go through PHX for their delivery or are they also going through LAS?

[Edited 2014-04-19 08:47:14]

User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 149, posted (4 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7680 times:

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 148):

I don't think it's "most", but certainly many do begin their revenue service lives in PHX. The couple of times I've been at the WN MX hangar they've had newly delivered aircraft that they were preparing for entry to revenue service, but I think it was more of a coincidence than anything.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 150, posted (4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7545 times:

Ok I think it's safe to say we can say byebye to the PHX hub after 3 years, with AA apparently announcing LAX as the gateway to Asia....no need for PHX in that regard.


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 151, posted (4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7533 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 150):
Ok I think it's safe to say we can say byebye to the PHX hub after 3 years, with AA apparently announcing LAX as the gateway to Asia....no need for PHX in that regard.

I couldn’t disagree more.

PHX was never destined to be a powerhouse international hub, save for a few flights to Mexico and Canada, merger or not. I’m not sure how anything has changed nor am I sure how that affects domestic hub operations.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think PHX will be right sized to a certain extent. But it’s a stretch to say the entire operation is doomed because AA is focusing international expansion on LAX, which is the more logical choice for a number of reasons. At any rate, if anything happens to PHX, it’s not going to be because LAX took on a few new transpac routes that may or may not be successful.



PHX based
User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1033 posts, RR: 4
Reply 152, posted (4 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7563 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 150):
Ok I think it's safe to say we can say byebye to the PHX hub after 3 years, with AA apparently announcing LAX as the gateway to Asia....no need for PHX in that regard.



There's nothing that PHX is giving up or could really ever give up to LAX in terms of international flying. Nothing is being lost in that sense with the announcement of LAX being built up as a Pacific gateway.

However...

I see two sides to this. On one hand, it's the part about LAX having to feed their international flying that could pose a threat. Building a more comprehensive domestic network at LAX could result in PHX losing some connecting feed as that traffic can now overfly the hub. US customers flying previously on a XXX-PHX-LAX itinerary can now be served XXX-LAX on those originating cities that AA and US both serve from both hubs, and any additions only worsen the problem. However, the other side to this is that AA may be looking to optimize more domestic-international feed through LAX as opposed to domestic-domestic, though I will admit that I'm not sure how much of either of the two goes on already there. That could push some connections over PHX as AA makes room at LAX in terms of gates as well as seats allocated for their new operation.

All that being said, it's really peanuts compared to the bigger issue with PHX. The fate of the hub, in my opinion, will rest in DFW's ability to assume the bulk of the east-west connecting flows that PHX currently handles in the LUS network.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineatcsundevil From Germany, joined Mar 2010, 1184 posts, RR: 2
Reply 153, posted (4 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7531 times:

Quoting 777stl (Reply 151):
I couldn’t disagree more.

PHX was never destined to be a powerhouse international hub, save for a few flights to Mexico and Canada, merger or not. I’m not sure how anything has changed nor am I sure how that affects domestic hub operations.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think PHX will be right sized to a certain extent. But it’s a stretch to say the entire operation is doomed because AA is focusing international expansion on LAX, which is the more logical choice for a number of reasons. At any rate, if anything happens to PHX, it’s not going to be because LAX took on a few new transpac routes that may or may not be successful.

  

Quoting wn676 (Reply 152):
There's nothing that PHX is giving up or could really ever give up to LAX in terms of international flying. Nothing is being lost in that sense with the announcement of LAX being built up as a Pacific gateway.

  


Phoenix was NEVER going to get this to begin with, and thoughts otherwise are foolish (as I've said for years). If it was possible, US would have begun an Asian network from PHX 5+ years ago. They added a bunch of ridiculous, loss-making TATL flights from CLT instead -- that's how little sense TPAC flying from PHX made sense to them. PHX isn't missing out on something it wouldn't have received to begin with. The hub will definitely be right-sized/downsized/whatever you'd like to call it, but PHX isn't PIT, STL, CVG, MEM, CLE, etc. It's a much larger city with a solid place in the new AA, just not as some international hub. Conceding PHX entirely would be a stupid financial decision to say the least, as would making PHX a TPAC gateway.



1954 1974 1990 2014 -- Los geht's!
User currently offlineAztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 154, posted (4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7440 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 150):
Ok I think it's safe to say we can say byebye to the PHX hub after 3 years, with AA apparently announcing LAX as the gateway to Asia....no need for PHX in that regard.

PHX never was and never will be a "gateway to Asia" With the connections via SFO and LAX there is not the need. Will AA destroy PHX, no I think that is going to far in any direction. Will there be a reduction in some flight, I think yes. I think AA will transition from flying smaller RJ's to using more mainline aircraft. While this may be a decrease in the number of flights the seas may stay the same.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 155, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

I have to say it's kinda hard to look at the OP of this thread, since SA7700 has passed on  

Other than that, it's been quiet here recently. How's it in Arizona?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineosubuckeyes From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7096 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 155):
How's it in Arizona?

Getting hot. Preparing for the annual CRJs were weight restricted due to heat threads.

In other news the people mover has nightly closures going on throughout the summer. I'm guessing to test for the T3 extension?


User currently offlineaztrainer From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 157, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6998 times:

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 156):
Getting hot. Preparing for the annual CRJs were weight restricted due to heat threads.

  


User currently offlinetravaz From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

I think that Phoenix would be a good option for a lot of East West connections for AA. (none TPAC) SLC, OAK, SJC, LAS, SEA and others would be good for connections to PHL LGA DCA and would incur lower cost using PHX as well as the lack of delays in PHX due to weather and traffic. The terminal is in decent shape and easy to navigate. I think PHX has a lot going for it the new AA.

User currently offline777stl From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3610 posts, RR: 3
Reply 159, posted (3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 155):
I have to say it's kinda hard to look at the OP of this thread, since SA7700 has passed on

What happened to him?



PHX based