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New Frontier Part 45  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22148 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Due to the previous thread becoming quite long and in some cases slow to load for some users, it was locked down for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this ongoing thread.

Part 44 can be found here:

New Frontier Part 44 (by iowaman Dec 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
295 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22135 times:

Part 45 so soon already?

 


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 22061 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Part 45 so soon already?

Its because we've been talking a bit too much about TTN in the general thread. With 7 threads (8 if you count the orginal Frontier Announces TTN thread from August 2012), its the God of regional airport destinations. All bow down to the mighty TTN  

[Edited 2014-03-01 14:15:17]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21991 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 2):
All bow down to the mighty TTN

I thought that we had to bow because it's to the Almighty DEN......

  

I am glad though that TTN got on line for F9.

F9 from the West had to control the whole of the U.S. from DEN, at least now it has TTN to help it along to control some of the East, eh? This can finally mean that with TTN now online F9 doesn't have to be completely DEN-centric.

And I think that ILG can help some along as well, if only from the front it didn't look like the laundromat in the strip mall that I use sometimes when I want to do some large pieces of laundry.....

  

I'm having fun here, huh?

 


User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21950 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
And I think that ILG can help some along as well, if only from the front it didn't look like the laundromat in the strip mall that I use sometimes when I want to do some large pieces of laundry.....

Also in the running for airport most likely to be mistaken for a strip mall
Northeast Florida Regional Airport (St Augustine/Jacksonville: UST)



(From the Skybus days)



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21929 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 4):

Hey.... great pic.... and you have me laughing some more now.....

  

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 21819 times:
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News of Old Friends:

Sadly, the news from Great Lakes is not good. They say the new rules for pilots have hit 'em hard and they've had to cancel routes because they don't have enough pilots.

Cranky Flier explains it all here:

http://crankyflier.com/2014/02/03/gr...mall-cities-blames-pilot-shortage/

And there's a map showing all the routes that have been cut. It isn't pretty, but then these things never are. The numbers given for how much the pilots at the airline get paid are fairly disturbing.

On a somewhat happier note, Frontier's old chum Jeff Potter is back in the airline business. He's taken over as CEO of Surf Air:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...air-ceo-eyerly-resigns-former.html

"Surf Air CEO Eyerly resigns; Former Frontier Airlines CEO to take role

If you haven't heard of Surf Air, you;re probably not alone. It's a club which offers private jet service. Don't ask me what I think of the model, because I don't entirely understand it, but it may appeal to the rich.

But it's good to see Jeff Potter doing the thing he loves again. I hope it works out.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 21810 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
And there's a map showing all the routes that have been cut.

It looks as though F9 isn't going to be the only DEN-centric scheduled commercial airline anymore.......

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (5 months 21 hours ago) and read 21800 times:
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Quoting point2point (Reply 7):
t looks as though F9 isn't going to be the only DEN-centric scheduled commercial airline anymore.......

It's been that way for years. Great Lakes keeps trying to break out and then keeps retrenching - to DEN.

Here's the map on their website, without Cranky's amendments:

http://www.greatlakesav.com/route_map/Docs/route_map.pdf

Totally DEN-centric.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 months 20 hours ago) and read 21777 times:
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I don't mean to be uncaring but alot of these cities don't need EAS.

Devils lake: 1 1/2 hours to Grand Forks
Jamestown: 1 1/2 hours to Fargo or Bismark
Ft. Dodge: 1 1/2 hours to Des Moines or Waterloo
Mason City 1 1/2 hours to Waterloo or 2 to MSP
Ironwood: 2 hours to Duluth
Thief River Falls 1 hour to Grand Forks

Unless it takes 3 hours or more to get to an airport and there is a decent population in the area then they don't need EAS.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (5 months 18 hours ago) and read 21738 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 9):


Devils lake: 1 1/2 hours to Grand Forks
Jamestown: 1 1/2 hours to Fargo or Bismark
Ft. Dodge: 1 1/2 hours to Des Moines or Waterloo
Mason City 1 1/2 hours to Waterloo or 2 to MSP
Ironwood: 2 hours to Duluth
Thief River Falls 1 hour to Grand Forks

Unless it takes 3 hours or more to get to an airport and there is a decent population in the area then they don't need EAS.

Which it may well take during the winter months. All those cities mentioned are in the snow-belt. Maybe seasonal EAS?  



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 months 13 hours ago) and read 21661 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
But it's good to see Jeff Potter doing the thing he loves again. I hope it works out.

Boys and their Toys.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 months 10 hours ago) and read 21578 times:
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Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10):
Which it may well take during the winter months. All those cities mentioned are in the snow-belt. Maybe seasonal EAS?

If they don't like the weather perhaps its time they get out of (Ft) Dodge (pun intended). But yes, perhaps seasonal EAS.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 4):
Also in the running for airport most likely to be mistaken for a strip mall
Northeast Florida Regional Airport (St Augustine/Jacksonville: UST)

What really gives it its potental as a winner is that its the only airport in the US with a Dollar General on property.  Big grin

[Edited 2014-03-02 10:57:12]


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 21425 times:

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 12):
If they don't like the weather perhaps its time they get out of (Ft) Dodge (pun intended). But yes, perhaps seasonal EAS.

For the longest time I was under the impression Fort Dodge was a aviation NAVAID and not a city. I've heard Fort Dodge routing being requested most time by UA flight decks flying westward out of Chicago to SEA on UA Channel 9.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 21277 times:

Any ideas why F9 flight # 726 an A320 diverted to MDT today enroute to DCA from DEN. Weather perhaps. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT726


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 20960 times:
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MEM has begun and, originally announced as 4 weekly, it is already going to daily in June:

http://www.memphisflyer.com/NewsBlog...mes-first-frontier-airlines-flight

"Memphis Airport Welcomes First Frontier Airlines Flight

Frontier originally announced they'd start with flights four days a week leaving from the Memphis airport, but reception has been so good, they've already announced plans to expand that service to seven days a week."


I'm not big on Memphis, although there is - or was - a great cafeteria there, but hey, if it makes money.....  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 20900 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
MEM has begun and, originally announced as 4 weekly, it is already going to daily in June:

Yes, this is good to hear and hopefully will become profitable for F9. It is interesting to note on another thread there was reference to US/AA announcing the start up of PHL - MEM. I am beginining to suspect that the success of F9 at TTN is now making US/AA pay more attention to what F9 adds from that sector of the country.

I can confirm that the flight loads are running very good if my round trip DEN - PHX this week was any indication. Left DEN on an 8:05am Saturday dep with all paying pax as gate attendant announced that there was no standby space. On my return late Wednesday night (320) all but five seats were filled. First time F9 flyer sitting next to me said she chose F9 because her cost for the trip was less than SW even with the bag fee.  

We know some of the red-eyes that will be going out of DEN this summer, but are all of them out there yet? Things are looking up for F9.

Frontier 14


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 20837 times:

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 16):
on another thread there was reference to US/AA announcing the start up of PHL - MEM. I am beginining to suspect that the success of F9 at TTN is now making US/AA pay more attention to what F9 adds from that sector of the country.

For clarity F9 new MEM service is DEN-MEM-DEN correct. MEM is not yet offered f rom TTN or ILG?    http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map

It appears the new management team got the MEM part correct just not to MCO.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 20785 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 17):
For clarity F9 new MEM service is DEN-MEM-DEN correct. MEM is not yet offered f rom TTN or ILG?

Yes just between MEM and DEN. MEM-DEN could be a indication that they might offer TTN-MEM in the future, US looked at the numbers and decieded to beat them to it.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 20400 times:

There are apparently two gates at DAL which are in play and out for bid. The DoJ seems to have embedded itself in the award process. Apparently DL wanted the gates but the DoJ said no legacies. I'm not sure I understand why th DoJ would be be involved as DAL is not a capacity controlled airport. It is of course the home base of WN. Everybody seem to think WN will prevail on their home turf.

For the sake of discussion and quiet I wanted to toss out if there might be any thoughts pro or con about F9 beginning service at DAL-TTN or DAL-ILG. Houston-ILG didn't pan out of course. F9 would have both of the Dallas airports covered from different directions. DFW is supposedly there second busiest market after LAS from DEN.

Would WN retaliate if F9 were to start DAL-ILG or DAL-TTN?. The two carriers seem to work in harmony at several other stations including MDW, BNA and DEN which are WN focus cities.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineJerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20366 times:
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I heard VX wanted them. Also have to wonder why ILG-IAH didn't pan out? Was it ILG? Was it IAH? TTN does have a larger population to draw from and the end of the Wright Ammendment is coming just in-time for the winter timetable of completion of the removal of obstructions to allow longer flights. When talking about longer flights they did mention DFW as a possible destination (probably thinking DL had a lock on the DAL gates) So who knows.


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20328 times:

Speaking of Great Lakes / DEN, Are they flying any 9-seat Beech 1900s under 135 yet? Still think that's an extremely clever way for them to weather out the pilot shortage.

[Edited 2014-03-10 19:04:14]


What now?
User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 140 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 20153 times:

Excellent news -

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11656973.htm

Quote:
Frontier Airlines Adds Nonstop Service from Cleveland to Six New Cities
Fly to Atlanta, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Phoenix, Raleigh-Durham, and Tampa with amazing fares at FlyFrontier.com

Following is the schedule for Frontier’s new nonstop service from Cleveland**:

Route: Atlanta
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Tues/Wed/Fri/Sat
Aircraft: A320

Route: Fort Lauderdale
Effective: June 14, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Wed/Sat
Aircraft: A320

Route: Fort Myers
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Wed/Fri/Sun
Aircraft: A320

Route: Phoenix
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Wed/Fri
Aircraft: A320

Route: Raleigh Durham
Effective: June 15, 2014
Frequency: Tues/Thurs/Sun
Aircraft: A320

Route: Tampa
Effective: June 15, 2014
Frequency: Tues/Thurs/Sun
Aircraft: A320


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 20132 times:

I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

It makes tons of operational sense to make the system into a CLE-DEN dumbell, even if the DEN end remains substantially bigger..

[Edited 2014-03-11 08:28:46]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 20107 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):

I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

It makes tons of operational sense to make the system into a CLE-DEN dumbell.

This is good news. The biggest surprise to me is F9 going up against DL on CLE-ATL. It's somewhat like NK that challenges the legacy carrier.

Since F9's service can be tolerated by more pax (including some business pax) than NK's service, I'm sure DL will price match the same day/similar time flights.

CLE-RDU is also another challenge to DL, but DL has limited nonstop frequency and RDU isn't a hub for it, and it's doubtful DL would upgrade it's service. The flight times appear different enough as well.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 20263 times:

I don't think F9 is challenging DL so much as they are better utilizing (reducing per pax cost) stations that have relatively few frequencies. They can add a flight for not much more than the variable cost of the flying - always good for margins.

Ok, so how much are they chuckling at headquarters over stealing all this from UA?  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20180 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland"

Darn and I thought the big dot at CLE meant they are using the A320 for all of the newly announced cities.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 24):
The biggest surprise to me is F9 going up against DL on CLE-ATL.

I think DL and F9 are at ease with each other. And although Republic is no longer in F9 picture RJET did quite a bit of regional flying for DL. I think the old adage "be careful of the hand that feeds you" might be in play.

I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

UA CLE-ATL APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.6>0.8 JUN 3>0.1 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0
UA CLE-PHX SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.9>0 (There were some May reductions in another thread)
UA CLE-RDU APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 20337 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

UA CLE-ATL APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.6>0.8 JUN 3>0.1 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0
UA CLE-PHX SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.9>0 (There were some May reductions in another thread)
UA CLE-RDU APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0

You are right on from my perspective. F9 has seen this as an added opportunity and has not wasted any time in responding. What is interesting is none of the adds are to secondary or tertiary airports, but rather major metropolitan areas. The new north - south CLE flying ties in with what F9 has been saying is integral to F9s long term success.

The three growth strategies that Mariner outlined in an earlier thread are quite telling with today's announcement too. Indigo sure has taken the bridle and reacts swiftly when they see a track (city) that has potential for profit.

The article says there are now 12 destinations. I am guessing we will see that double in the next 12-18 months.

For those of us who follow Frontier, this is becoming a wonderful ride. Oh how much things can change in a year looking back at what was. The new owners want to make money and aren't afraid to take some risks to obtain it. Glad to see PHX (Indigo's home) get another leg. Suspect we will see some more connects there over time.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 28, posted (4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20354 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):
I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

I heard rumors something was happening, but just as a route or two - and I had my fingers crossed for CLE-PHX.

I believe they're "basing" at least one aircraft an CLE - although this is just in scheduling terms. As at TTN, where they still rotate the three TTN based aircraft through the system.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

In part, that's surely true - I doubt it would be happening without the United action. But CLE has been very good for Frontier.

CLE-DEN doubles in frequency this summer - that was decided some time before the United thing - and I'm told the reaction to CLE-MCO and CLE-SEA has been excellent.

Daniel Shurz says in the Plan Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rontier_airlines_service_at_c.html

"Frontier spokesman Daniel Shurz said the carrier announced new nonstops out of Denver, Chicago Midway and Trenton around the time it went public with plans on adding Seattle and Orlando to its Hopkins' nonstops. Of all the new options at the four airports, Shurz said, the strongest demand came in the Cleveland market."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 29, posted (4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20337 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

All of it? I think F9 sees CLE as an exceptionally good fit in light of the city's and the airline's present circumstances and wants to get in ahead of other airlines (B6? WN?) which may want only one or two of the best routes UA is abandoning.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 30, posted (4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 20316 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 29):
All of it? I think F9 sees CLE as an exceptionally good fit in light of the city's and the airline's present circumstances and wants to get in ahead of other airlines (B6? WN?) which may want only one or two of the best routes UA is abandoning.

What's been missed - or what I haven't seen posted anywhere - is that CLE-MCO also goes from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 31, posted (4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20214 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
What's been missed - or what I haven't seen posted anywhere - is that CLE-MCO also goes from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly.

It was mentioned in a Crain's Cleveland, a business newspaper, today that MCO frequency was increased before service had even begun based on demand.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 20180 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
I don't think F9 is challenging DL so much as they are better utilizing (reducing per pax cost) stations that have relatively few frequencies. They can add a flight for not much more than the variable cost of the flying - always good for margins.

I agree that F9 is doing what you summarized.

But from DL's markedly territorial view in regards to their fortress like hub markets: ATL, DTW and maybe MSP, any flight into the hub from a competing carrier, esp. from an airport with DL running the same flight, is probably thought of as a challenge. Unless the carrier can be so crappy to it's customers like NK that it self fends off business customers from using it. Then DL ignores the challenge.

I think DL might view F9 like B6 rather than NK.

Pax will suddenly see deep discounts on the same day/same time departures from DL.
It's a good test though. If F9 can be succesful on CLE-ATL, it would have no qualms of starting CLE-DFW and CLE-IAH as well, with the similar less than daily offering.

I hope that the strength of CLE to the west, along with MDT and TTN/ILG to the east, will mean PIT getting some F9 domestic service.

[Edited 2014-03-11 13:10:44]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 33, posted (4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20158 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 32):
But from DL's markedly territorial view in regards to their fortress like hub markets: ATL, DTW and maybe MSP, any flight into ATL from a competing carrier, esp. from an airport with DL running the same flight, is probably thought of as a challenge. Unless the carrier can be so crappy to it's customers like NK that it self fends off business customers from using it. Then DL ignores the challenge.

This is really the first time there has been a direct challenge to Delta since the notorious adventures at MCI - Delta went nuclear when Frontier added MCI-MSP, and immediately overlaid five of Frontier's routes at MCI.

But - TTN-ATL and ILG-ATL raised not a peep from Delta. Nor DTW. Nor - so far - TTN-MSP.

So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-11 13:47:35]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20108 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

We'll find out. It's interesting that nobody expects UA to respond; they are planning to continue operating the Florida routes and to maintain a crew base in CLE. I doubt they expected to be challenged so broadly so soon.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 35, posted (4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 20086 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 34):
We'll find out. It's interesting that nobody expects UA to respond; they are planning to continue operating the Florida routes and to maintain a crew base in CLE. I doubt they expected to be challenged so broadly so soon.

Generally speaking, when it is just United and Frontier they have co-existed pretty well. There are numerous routes out of DEN where it is just the two airlines - MSN, BIS, FAR, MOT, etc. Initially, they co-existed on DEN-GRR - it was Southwest's arrival that caused the problem.

The theory is that low fares stimulate the market for the benefit of all - a rising tide lifts all boats - and this seemed to happen at MSN.

Then again, it was Southwest's arrival on DEN-CAK that was partly responsible for Frontier's move to CLE - and as far as I am aware United did not detrimentally respond to that.

It's also possible that Delta sees the limited frequency ULCC Frontier as a bulwark against the more aggressive frequencies of Southwest.

Or perhaps that Bill Franke of Indigo is perceived to have deeper pockets and bigger balls than any previous Frontier.

I dunno. I'm ready for anything.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 20072 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

Since the UA CLE pulldown was announced hasn't DL jumped on three routes from CLE to IND, RDU and BDL? I am thinking DL was wanting to cherry pick what they could in order to prevent F9 from grabbing/selecting these routes too. As you say, is DL viewing F9 at this point as a "fly", or as a "gnat" in which case we will undoubtedly see a response.

Frontier 14


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 19871 times:

Regarding RDU-CLE, I think F9 and DL are both doing opportunistic flying but neither are offering a comprehensive schedule. I think the flight times are different enough as well. DL has RJs and high fares likely catering to some corporate pax base reimbursed by their client or employer. F9 maybe going for VFR and pax paying out of their own pocket.

DL probably will respond with low fares on CLE-ATL on the same time but even then DL needs to keep half of the seats likely open for connecting pax, so it has fewer seats that it can discount. I don't think F9 will care if DL will enjoy a fare premium.

I wonder if F9 is considering a station in SC. Opening up MYR with MYR-CLE might dampen NK interest and NK interest in CLE. I don't think F9 would be pleased to see NK interest and undercutting of them at CLE.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 38, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 19843 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 37):
F9 maybe going for VFR and pax paying out of their own pocket.

Sure is. It's a line that Daniel Shurz used at Cleveland and has been using quite a lot recently:

http://fox8.com/2014/03/11/even-frie...lying-more-for-less-with-frontier/

"“We’re an airline designed for customers who use their own money to pay for travel. We realize what values are important to our customers and that’s what we deliver,” added Shurz."

It;s a good line, maybe a great one, and exactly explains what they;re up to.

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
and I had my fingers crossed for CLE-PHX.

Just to add to that, I am really quite surprised that Frontier gets CLE-PHX all on its own-some, at least for now. It's route that I'm sure will do well in summer but be gangbusters in winter.

I'm surprised that Southwest hasn't jumped on it, long before this, but then Southwest at CLE has long puzzled me, that they have done so little there. Southwest does fly CLE-RSW, seasonally, so it's the second time Frontier has jumped on a seasonal Southwest route from CLE, MCO being the first.

I wonder if we'll see CLE-LAS at some stage.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineF9Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19834 times:

Good to see F9 taking advantage of the UA departure from CLE. The CLE market is a little smaller than DEN, but with some opprotunities if you aer willing to drive some. CAK is to CLE as COS is to DEN, plus you have PIT a little over two hours away (PIT is advertising heavily in the Cleveland market now.) CMH and DTW are within about three hours, so those are viable options too. By comparison, the only comprable airports within 500 miles of DEN are ABQ and SLC.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (4 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 19643 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I am really quite surprised that Frontier gets CLE-PHX all on its own-some, at least for now. It's route that I'm sure will do well in summer but be gangbusters in winter.

I have it on good authority they don't shovel sunshine in PHX. If F9 keeps flying from the colder to warmer destinations they may to start shopping for a "snowbird" tail critter. I think I saw one of those on an AS tail.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 41, posted (4 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 19519 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 40):
I have it on good authority they don't shovel sunshine in PHX.

In a PHX summer, the shovels would melt.  
Quoting F9Fan (Reply 39):
The CLE market [offers] some opprotunities if you aer willing to drive some. CAK is to CLE as COS is to DEN, plus you have PIT a little over two hours away (PIT is advertising heavily in the Cleveland market now.) CMH and DTW are within about three hours,

People from the eastern sections of Toledo and Erie, PA, are also CLE customers when the flight is long and the fare is cheap. Folklore says lots of PIT people drove to CLE in the early days of WN service. Huge numbers get quoted, but I think that's an exaggeration.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 42, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19251 times:

There was speculation in Aviation Week that Indigo-associate Tigerair Singapore has gotten a little ahead of itself. If there is any retrenchment, I wonder if Frontier might acquire (lease? sublease?) a few A320 aircraft from Tigerair's fleet of about 50.

Wizz Ukraine, another Indigo associate, may have a few spares, as well. It's convenient that Indigo's stable of airlines all operate A320's.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3134 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 19045 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 41):
Folklore says lots of PIT people drove to CLE in the early days of WN service. Huge numbers get quoted, but I think that's an exaggeration.

Its certainly not folklore; those of us in Pittsburgh know all too well about the leakage to CLE when PIT was a fortress hub.

Here is an archived article, but it requires registration and payment to view.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no

But inside it states:
"With more competition and lower fares, he believes the Pittsburgh airport could recapture an estimated 750000 travelers who drive to Cleveland"

750,000 does indeed sound high, but consider PIT's O&D was about 6 million during the days of high fares. But it peaked at over 7 million in 2007 when Pittsburgh had low fares and the market was stimulated. I have no doubt the number of trips to CLE from Pittsburgh was in the hundreds of thousands.



FLYi
User currently offlinejeepyjeep From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18792 times:

Just saw that the Frontier schedule was extended until mid-September. Haven't seen any surprises yet, but did notice that some of the MDT-MCO flights and some of the MDT-DEN flights are on the A320!

User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 18586 times:
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If you want to be saving some green on your F9 ticket for travel by May 21, 2014 use code POTOGOLD by March 18 to save 17 %


Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 46, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 18351 times:
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There's obviously quite a lot of buzz about CLE, especially since Siegel has said it is now a focus city, and it;s best summed up in this headline:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...es-to-the-rescue-in-cleveland.aspx

"Frontier Airlines Comes to the Rescue in Cleveland"

It's a sensible article, with a clear view of Frontier's place at CLE;

Frontier offers a very different type of product than United or the other legacy carriers. Most of its new Cleveland routes will be served less than daily (typically with three to five weekly flights). Frontier also lacks a first class section, and legroom tends to be tighter than on United's planes. These attributes make Frontier less attractive to business travelers.

However, many leisure customers will be happy to cope with less legroom and a more restrictive flight schedule for the lower fares that Frontier will offer. Thus, while losing the United hub may be bad for Cleveland-area businesses, it seems increasingly likely that leisure travelers will benefit from more competition and lower fares."


The point should probably be made that it is still Frontier and some of the "rules"of Frontier still apply, the limited frequency and it will like be intensely seasonal. CLE-SEA is already known to be such and no matter how well CLE-PHX is booking now, it was originally said to be seasonal in The Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rontier_airlines_service_at_c.html

"Frontier Airlines this morning announced it was adding six more nonstop destinations out of Cleveland, including a seasonal nonstop to Phoenix."

I suppose my point is that Frontier is not intending to replace United, although it is easy enough to dream that it might, but limited frequency and seasonally will play into this and, as obviously some of Frontier's own fleet constraints.

There's more. Obviously, some of this - a lot - has to do with Indigo (and in the specific case of CLE, United), but the forgotten man may be Siegel, who turned the airline around.

Siegel has copped a lot of crap on this board and on this website and generally, but he did what needed to happen. TTN came about because of Siegel's determination that Frontier needed to participate in the extensive Northeast to Florida snowbird traffic, for example.

He's a man with a formidable knowledge of the industry and is presently functioning as CEO, CFO and COO while Frontier finds others for those last two jobs. Hopefully, they'll appoint good ones.

I don't know how long Siegel will stay at Frontier - the candidate for COO might be picked as a potential and eventual CEO - but I hope he stays for awhile, because a great deal of the present optimism about Frontier is due to him.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:25:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18251 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 46):

people may not like how he did it, but the airline did turn around, the alternative was much much worse (aka non-existant).



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18226 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I suppose my point is that Frontier is not intending to replace United, although it is easy enough to dream that it might, but limited frequency and seasonally will play into this and, as obviously some of Frontier's own fleet constraints.

I wonder if WN and UA would actually like F9 to grow in CLE and might not contest it with response in any form, if it results in F9 shifting some flights and reducing it's footprint at DEN. An action like F9 using it's two slot pairs from LGA-DEN converting them to LGA-CLE would probably result in yield increase and/or more marketshare capture for WN, UA and DL on LGA-DEN, with F9 out of the picture. UA is on LGA-CLE as well so it's yields depress there, but it's likely not a strategic route although probably profitable.

CLE and TTN/ILG are modeled very point to point, with no thru flights, no connections. It's like F9 deliberately didn't want to offer TTN-CLE-any destination as a CLE being a thru.

Out in DEN, F9 is still more a hub carrier. One can fly IAH-DEN-SEA for example. If F9 transforms DEN into more opportunistic focus over hub like CLE and TTN, so that pax can no longer fly IAH-DEN-SEA but every IAH-DEN flight is only O D between these cities, and every DEN-SEA flight is only O and D between these cities, then it cuts the number of flights/week to just meet the O and D. It might free up aircraft for F9 to be elsewhere but less big in DEN.

[Edited 2014-03-18 20:31:16]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 49, posted (4 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18182 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 48):
I wonder if WN and UA would actually like F9 to grow in CLE and might not contest it with response in any form, if it results in F9 shifting some flights and reducing it's footprint at DEN.

I;m not sure that will happen in any serious way, although to a small extent it may have.

While the percentage of Frontier that is DEN-centric may decrease as the others grow, that doesn't mean it's DEN footprint will shrink - it has added four destinations at DEN this summer - simply that others may grow, such as CLE.

Would Frontier really want to abandon DEN-LGA in favour of, say, CLE-LGA? Maybe - I'm not sure about that.

Mostly, I don't think it matters much to United what Frontier does at CLE. United must have known that someone would jump in and perhaps better Frontier than some others - they have different target markets. It seems to have reached a level of coexistence with Frontier on many routes.

I suppose Southwest might react - and possibly has by announcing CLE-LAS as year round, maybe as a warning to Frontier - but Southwest has CLE-MCO/RSW as seasonal and that hasn't stopped Frontier. And what would Southwest do about CAK?

I'm a wee bitty more concerned about Delta, which has usually gone nuclear if Frontier intrudes on its turf - TTN/ILG being exceptions, but Delta doesn't serve them. Is CLE-ATL a poke in the eye, though, and CLE-RDU, both of which Delta announced before Frontier?

Maybe Delta has come to the same conclusion about Frontier (as ULCC) as it has with Spirit - that they serve different markets. Or maybe it sees Frontier at CLE as a bulwark against Southwest.

I dunno - but I won't quite relax for a week or two.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 48):
CLE and TTN/ILG are modeled very point to point, with no thru flights, no connections.

I think that's fairly deliberate.

I guess it would be possible to self connect on a couple of routes through TTN, at least one way, but I don't think there is the frequency to allow realistic connections both ways.

To some extent the same is true of CLE. Eventually, connections will happen, I guess, but if they can build the O&D, the connection possibilities may happen organically, rather than deliberately imposing them.

It's verrrrry early days at CLE and I am a bit shell-shocked they can do what they are with the constrained fleet they have.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3031 posts, RR: 29
Reply 50, posted (4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18152 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):
I suppose Southwest might react - and possibly has by announcing CLE-LAS as year round, maybe as a warning to Frontier - but Southwest has CLE-MCO/RSW as seasonal and that hasn't stopped Frontier. And what would Southwest do about CAK?

I don't see Southwest reacting much at the moment. They are busy with DAL and DCA to pay any attention to CLE. Good moment for F9 to pounce on.

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):
I'm a wee bitty more concerned about Delta, which has usually gone nuclear if Frontier intrudes on its turf - TTN/ILG being exceptions, but Delta doesn't serve them. Is CLE-ATL a poke in the eye, though, and CLE-RDU, both of which Delta announced before Frontier?

Maybe Delta has come to the same conclusion about Frontier (as ULCC) as it has with Spirit - that they serve different markets.

That's who I would be worried about too.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (4 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 18048 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):

In the ULCC model I think F9 needs to be weary of pricing their fares at CLE to low; which the other carriers should match in the markets they compete (Florida). The business traveler may end up getting the best of both worlds; Being able to fly on their preferred carrier; be it UA, DL or even WN at a discounted price as a result of F9 ULCC pricing which the other carriers would I suspect match or at least come within range. I use a $50 variant.

I'm also pondering what if anything might occur at MDW if CLE does become a focus city (I missed that memo) CLE and MDW are 310 miles apart; to close for a carrier the size of F9 to have two focus cities. The paradigm may be shifting slightly.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17763 times:

Thoughts - is SRQ to close to TPA to be a potentially viable F9 winter/spring (north - south flying) destination? It appears that UA and DL provide seasonal service from Chicago and Detroit respectively. There is non-stop service from the northeast as well.

Frontier 14


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 53, posted (4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 17454 times:

Trying to think of ways Frontier and Wizz could collaborate. It don't come easy, as the song says; but they have to be thinking about this in DEN, BUD, and PHX.  


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2273 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 17300 times:

I like what F9 is doing, seems like they are still adding smaller destinations via DEN but also taking risks at creating focus cities like TTN, ILG and now CLE that seem to be paying off. Starting to get exciting watching this carrier now, will be curious to see what their next move is. I would like to see one of their focus cities in the east to connect to some of the smaller cities they serve via DEN to allow for connectivity to the east coast and Florida. Wasnt there some buzz about maybe MDW possibly becoming a focus city as well? Or would GYY work out for them ala' TTN/ILG?

User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17259 times:
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Here's some news on ILG: Apparently they are proposing a $4.50PFC to pay for past projects and a study of options to expand the airport. Proposed start of the PFC is June 1, 2014

http://www.newcastleairportilg.com/pdf/Public_Notice_Form-ILG_PFC.pdf



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 56, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 17239 times:
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Southwest strikes on STL-SFO - starting in October:

STL-SFO Nonstop On WN. (by OzarkD9S Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

I've always understood the route to be summer seasonal for Frontier, like STL-PDX and CLE-SEA/PHX, so I doubt it will make any difference for this year.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-22 12:39:52]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17151 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):
Southwest strikes on STL-SFO - starting in October:

Well, I am not surprised by a LUV reaction as STL is a major focus city for them with around a 100 flights/day. Just in guessing, if the route had potential for profit SW would have been on it before this. So they will run it at a loss to see if the "new Frontier under Indigo" will react and run, as was the case when RAH had ownership.

With the F9 route being seasonal we will not know until the 2015 summer schedule is populated.

As has been mentioned in another thread, SW got a big promotional effort from the DEN airport, administration and the Denver Piss (Post)   this week in regards to the city nearing completion on five additional SW gates on the C concourse. SW posturing to say that they are ready to grow DEN more, come December when the new gates are to be finished. The city, airport and paper seem willing do anything to keep SW at the forefront here.

If SW overlays a couple of F9 routes out of DEN (ie. DSM, MEM, CLE) in 2015 I would say the Indigo F9 has their attention. Will F9 stay, I suspect they would on CLE, the others I do not know. However, Indigo most likely was well aware of some sort of a SW reaction when they announced SFO and PDX routes. Franke understands the game well.
Is a Delta reaction far behind?

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 58, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17125 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
The city, airport and paper seem willing do anything to keep SW at the forefront here.

That;s long been true. There used to be a small section in the Denver Post dedicated to Frontier news, as the hometown airline, but that's gone and I've often wondered - here - if the Post has shares in Southwest - LOL.

I really can't get exercised about it. From the day Southwest announced DEN, people have been insisting to me, here, that it will kill Frontier at DEN and lo - Frontier has survived everything Southwest has thrown at it, is still flying and there are still routes from DEN common to both airlines.

Southwest starts DEN-MEM? However well Frontier is doing at MEM, then, worst case, it has survived without MEM before and same with DSM. Southwest tried to kill Frontier on DEN-CAK and Frontier's response - to move to CLE - may be perhaps one of the best things Frontier has done in a while, same with DEN-DAY and Frontier's move to CVG.

Frontier made much more money when it had 10% market share at DEN than it ever did when it had 20% share at DEN. The restructure, the down-sizing, is over and in one critical regard Frontier is a whole different animal now - it is now a properly capitalised airline (thanks, Indigo) which has not been true for several years.

Southwest made one critical mistake - underbidding for Frontier at the auction. It's an old lesson from that classic book "The Art of War" - never push your enemy into a corner unless you're certain you've got him cornered, with no possibility of escape. Southwest spent far too much time admiring itself in the mirror and didn't do its homework.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-22 14:52:26]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17100 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 58):
Southwest made one critical mistake - underbidding for Frontier at the auction. It's an old lesson from that classic book "The Art of War" - never push your enemy into a corner unless you're certain you've got him cornered, with no possibility of escape. Southwest spent far too much time admiring itself in the mirror and didn't do its homework.

Well stated..........

Frontier 14


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17078 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 58):
Southwest spent far too much time admiring itself in the mirror and didn't do its homework.

LUV it.......   

Quoting mariner (Reply 58):
That;s long been true. There used to be a small section in the Denver Post dedicated to Frontier news, as the hometown airline, but that's gone and I've often wondered - here - if the Post has shares in Southwest - LOL.

I think that F9 does get some coverage in the DP, but I have to more than less agree in that WN seems to get all of the positive spin, while F9 appears with the bad spin. However, F9 has been on much more of a roller coaster ride these last few years. I think that it matters some (in terms of $$$$$) the perception those in the area will get from local media, and it would be helpful if F9 were better treated by the DP, and maybe some local others along the way.

Also anyone say what they want about Republic and Brian Bedford, but if it wasn't for them and him, F9 in it's present form most likely would not be here today. Hopefully, there will be some positive economic gain for them from their whole episode with F9. But yet on the other hand it really wasn't F9 making any of the commotion for Republic, as at the same time YX had its situation and, well....

And lastly, those in charge of legislation in Denver are all somehow in agreement and in favor of getting rid of that airline parts tax...... but when this will get done, well.....? It seems as if it's been kicking around for the last few years. And maybe this same group at the same time could figure out a few more ways to advantage their hometown company?

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 61, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17067 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
As has been mentioned in another thread, SW got a big promotional effort from the DEN airport, administration and the Denver Piss (Post)


In this DEN-centric world which this thread must - to some extent be - news about Frontier from other stations is sometimes missed - as it is almost always missed in the Denver Post.

So here's a headline (repost from the TTN thread) which you don't often see:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...unty_official_thinks_frontier.html

"Southwest suspends local flights to Ft. Lauderdale, Ft. Myers, Mercer official says Frontier could benefit"

However much Southwest's CEO Kelly may have "Denver" graven on his heart, there is a wee bitty more to Frontier these days than just DEN, if only a bitty, and the news from CLE ain't bad - CLE-MCO and CLE-RSW are both Southwest seasonal routes, and yet Frontier has announced them as year round (along with other Florida).

The most interesting thing about CLE is - what happens next?

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
Is a Delta reaction far behind?

I breathe a little easier each day and this weekend is a big test of that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17050 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):
Southwest strikes on STL-SFO - starting in October:
Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
So they will run it at a loss to see if the "new Frontier under Indigo" will react and run,

F9 also potentially has a plan "B" if STL-SFO becomes to crowded. Move the service 86 miles East to the SMF



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16950 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 57):
So they will run it at a loss to see if the "new Frontier under Indigo" will react and run, as was the case when RAH had ownership.

Then they'll drop it leaving the route empty again. To quote the great philosopher Samuel Axe "You know (airlines), just a bunch of bitchy little girls"



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16934 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 63):
To quote the great philosopher Samuel Axe "You know (airlines), just a bunch of bitchy little girls"

Didn't know that one...... but so true......


  


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 65, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16928 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 63):
Then they'll drop it leaving the route empty again. To quote the great philosopher Samuel Axe "You know (airlines), just a bunch of bitchy little girls"

LOL.

I somewhat lean towards Frontier dropping the route now and switching the aircraft to "somewhere else". It's good that they want to give STL a go, but it is a Southwest hub-thingy.

Then again, maybe that's the point - that it is a Southwest hub-thingy.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2273 posts, RR: 3
Reply 66, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16793 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I somewhat lean towards Frontier dropping the route now and switching the aircraft to "somewhere else". It's good that they want to give STL a go, but it is a Southwest hub-thingy.

Then again, maybe that's the point - that it is a Southwest hub-thingy.

mariner

at one time didnt F9 consider building up a hub in STL? what are the chances they could build a focus city in STL and maybe do like they do in DEN, fly to smaller airports that WN doesnt fly to and then to some larger destinations on a less than daily basis? Or is WN just too big there to go up against? As I pointed out above it would be nice to see some of the DEN cities get an option to a hub or focus city in the other direction to allow connectivity to the east coast.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 67, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16761 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 66):


at one time didnt F9 consider building up a hub in STL? what are the chances they could build a focus city in STL and maybe do like they do in DEN, fly to smaller airports that WN doesnt fly to and then to some larger destinations on a less than daily basis? Or is WN just too big there to go up against? As I pointed out above it would be nice to see some of the DEN cities get an option to a hub or focus city in the other direction to allow connectivity to the east coast.

I don't know if they considered it or not but the STL airport brass talked to F9, B6 and FL about setting up shop here after the final AA cuts.

I've postulated on CrankyFlier that perhaps F9 will fit it's ULCC model somewhere between G4 and NK. NK goes after the big markets, G4 is concentrating on the smaller ones and F9 could focus on the mid-sized markets, which STL falls into. Also PIT, MEM, CLE etc...could all see some more F9 action ala TTN/ILG. There seems to be a bevy of 3-4x per week markets that have the potential to work well from STL, and the others I've mentioned plus several more. I'm actually a bit surprised they don't take a stab at PHF, before the new People Express gets going if it ever does. F9's already there....



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2273 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16705 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 67):
I don't know if they considered it or not but the STL airport brass talked to F9, B6 and FL about setting up shop here after the final AA cuts.

I've postulated on CrankyFlier that perhaps F9 will fit it's ULCC model somewhere between G4 and NK. NK goes after the big markets, G4 is concentrating on the smaller ones and F9 could focus on the mid-sized markets, which STL falls into. Also PIT, MEM, CLE etc...could all see some more F9 action ala TTN/ILG. There seems to be a bevy of 3-4x per week markets that have the potential to work well from STL, and the others I've mentioned plus several more. I'm actually a bit surprised they don't take a stab at PHF, before the new People Express gets going if it ever does. F9's already there....

I wondered that too. Although at the time F9 was restructuring, perhaps PHF should look into F9 as another alternative for more flights and ditch the PE idea. I think its highly doubtful Peoplexpress will ever get off the ground at the rate its going. F9 at least has some brand awareness.

It would be nice to see F9 continue on serving the smaller/mid sized markets and maybe having a handful of focus cities in between. G4 has proven you can make money in smaller / mid sized markets. Not everyone wants to drive 2-3 hours to a hub airport to save money, especially with gas prices they way they are. I love that F9 serves my hometown of CID and provides some relief on airfares going out west.

[Edited 2014-03-23 10:23:35]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 69, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16690 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 66):
what are the chances they could build a focus city in STL and maybe do like they do in DEN, fly to smaller airports that WN doesnt fly to and then to some larger destinations on a less than daily basis?

I think you're describing a small hub.  

Isn't St. Louis already a focus city? F9 presently plans to fly STL-DEN and nine other points.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16652 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 69):
Isn't St. Louis already a focus city? F9 presently plans to fly STL-DEN and nine other points.

It already is if the dot size on the F9 route map is any indication. Most likely we will see some additions in the future in the STL market. There are some opportunities that do not run akin to SW and could prove profitable given the less than daily service which Frontier is now practicing.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 71, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16622 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 70):
It already is if the dot size on the F9 route map is any indication. Most likely we will see some additions in the future in the STL market. There are some opportunities that do not run akin to SW and could prove profitable given the less than daily service which Frontier is now practicing.

I think the backbone of STL has to be the Apple flying, which is quite extensive. I also think that the Frontier summer schedule may have taken a lot of people by surprise - at least the p2p stuff - and we are seeing the reactions, which are, so far, rather mild.

Southwest may have sent up two warning flags - one at CLE with the reintroduction of seasonal CLE-LAS as year round. I don't know if it's enough to keep Frontier off the route, but the reaction could have been much stronger - by making CLE-MCO year round, say, to directly compete with Frontier now. It still may do this, of course, but it's given Frontier a head start. Then again, Southwest may have its own fleet issues, with the amount of expansion (DAL/DCA/LGA) it has happening.

I don't know if STL-SFO is a direct response to Frontier but ti seems likely and I would read it as saying that Southwest will defend STL somewhat more than CLE. It might seem odd to start the route in winter, but Southwest has hub-thingy benefits (feed) at STL, which Frontier - so far - does not have.

The lack of a response - so far - by Delta to CLE-ATL may suggest that Delta would rather see limited frequency Frontier on the route than multi-frequency Southwest.

So I think Frontier has come out of all this rather well, given what could have happened. I'm still a bit nervous about Delta, but a lot less nervous than I was.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16608 times:

I was playing around with Frontier's add/drops at TTN, and I needed to see it visually; though it would be nice to share! I am amazed they've gone from 1 city to 17 in roughly a year and a half!


TTN Spreadsheet **let me know if I've made any errors--I tried to track frequency changes but that got WAY too involved!

[Edited 2014-03-23 12:30:13]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16560 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
I don't know if STL-SFO is a direct response to Frontier but ti seems likely and I would read it as saying that Southwest will defend STL somewhat more than CLE.

Where strategy and or tactics enter the equation WN timing is suspicious. There is another thread in circulation on A,Net now which informs readers two of four SFO runways are being close for repairs simultaneously (reads like EMAS upgrades). This could be problematic for WN ideology of thirty minute turns. Add to that the sea layer of fog which plagues the area.

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):
It might seem odd to start the route in winter, but Southwest has hub-thingy benefits (feed) at STL,

Perhaps WN STL-SFO service announcement takes into consideration the SFO runway upgrade.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 74, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 16559 times:

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 70):
... given the less than daily service which Frontier is now practicing.

I checked the Spirit schedule for clues to Frontier's new strategy and was surprised to see how many of Spirit's routes are daily and often twice daily, scheduled at business-friendly hours. I had expected something more like TTN. I have to assume that F9 is much more fleet constrained than they would like to be at the moment.

Interesting times for Frontier watchers.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinesdoyon From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16497 times:

Also, I think this has been brought up before, but the idea of BKG is sort of tempting. WN couldn't make 1x BKG-MDW/DAL/HOU/MCO work, but maybe F9 could. Maybe something like:

DEN: 2x-7x weekly
ATL: 2x-3x weekly (FL seemed to do well on this one)
MDW: 3x weekly
MCO: 1x-3x weekly
TPA: 1x-2x weekly

Even at the height of summer, BKG would be looking at 18x flights a week, or about 2-3 a day. Just a thought!


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 76, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16475 times:
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Quoting sdoyon (Reply 75):
ATL: 2x-3x weekly (FL seemed to do well on this one)

  

I was actually a tad surprised they didn't add BKG-ATL this summer.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16525 times:

I have three F9 itineraries now booked from CLE. I've never flown them before, but I definitely want to support any expansion they will provide to CLE.

I just happened to check how fares are to Seattle on F9 from CLE, just to compare to the fare I paid when the service was initially announced (there are still incredible deals). To my surprise, I noticed that the Tuesday flight times from SEA-CLE have changed, yet no email notification from F9 telling me of this. The original departure time from SEA was 14:05 when booked, it is now 15:55, a difference of 1 hour 50 minutes later, a pretty substantial time difference to not send a notice. Does Frontier typically send out immediate email notifications when flight times on future flights are changed or do they wait? Perhaps Frontier is still messing with their summer schedules ... more potential adds? ... so they don't want to send out email notifications for flight time changes until their summer schedule is finalized?

Perhaps this leads some credence to how quickly F9 felt they had to jump on the CLE-SEA route as they weren't quite sure what the actual flight times were going to be (and how many other routes they were going to add). With the AS/DL "war" going on in SEA, either one of them could have easily scooped up the route, (and who's to say DL wouldn't be interested in starting it up?)


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 78, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16501 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 71):


It might seem odd to start the route in winter, but Southwest has hub-thingy benefits (feed) at STL, which Frontier - so far - does not have.

The WN hub-thingy might work westbound, but the eastbound gets into STL at 11:55pm. Westbound will have to rely on O&D or whatever minor feed they can muster from the SFO end.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16496 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 77):
The original departure time from SEA was 14:05 when booked, it is now 15:55, a difference of 1 hour 50 minutes later,

1400 or shortly thereafter was the time one of their SEA-DEN flights departed SEA. If they modified your flight times you might want to check your itinerary to make sure they didn't route you through DEN back to CLE. I haven't checked F9 SEA departure times in over a year. I remember the flight very well as i flew it on a couple of occasions.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 80, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 16233 times:
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Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 77):
With the AS/DL "war" going on in SEA, either one of them could have easily scooped up the route, (and who's to say DL wouldn't be interested in starting it up?)

Given Delta's interest in SEA that's always possible, if only seasonally, and I suspect it would be more about SEA - and Alaska - than Frontier.

I'm also starting to wonder if it would matter. It's a summer seasonal route for Frontier, and summer might be able to support two carriers aiming at quite different markets.

Also, and as above, the lack - so far - of any Delta reaction to CLE-ATL is surprising to me. For old Frontier hands, it suggests - maybe - a possible change in the relationship between the two airlines.

Every previous attempt by Frontier to start a non-hub (that is not from Denver) route to a Delta (or Northwest) hub or turf has been met with swift and ferocious reaction, going all the way back to 2002 (Frontier's aborted SLC-PVR, which Delta didn't fly) and 2003, Frontier's disastrous LAX-MSP. The most recent example was not much more than a couple of years ago, when Frontier started MCI-MSP:

http://crankyflier.com/2011/03/15/de...at-frontier-over-minneapolis-move/

"Delta Comes out Swinging at Frontier Over Minneapolis Move"

The "rule" has always been that Frontier can start routes to Delta turf from its hub (DEN-DTW e.g.) but from nowhere else and even when Frontier announced DEN-CVG there was a mild Delta reaction - an up-gauge in equipment.

Things changed with TTN-ATL/DTW and ILG-ATL/DTW, but Delta doesn't fly those routes, they're clearly secondary (or tertiary) airports and there has been no reaction to TTN-MSP.

But CLE is a primary airport so CLE-ATL is a different ball game (and to a lesser extent CLE-RDU). There may still be a reaction, of course, but it would not now have the sting of immediacy - the fierce reactions have usually happened at least within a week or ten days max.

There may be several reasons for it, including perhaps the change at Frontier. Delta may now accept that Frontier's ULCC model has a target market that Delta doesn't particularly want. Or, as I said above, that Delta would rather have Frontier on the route than Southwest. And - presumably - there may be a few CLE folk who might use Frontier for a lower fare CLE-ATL rather than schlepping out to CAK for Southwest - and that might make Delta smile.

I'm still a bit nervous because if there is a change in the Delta attitude it is a big one. Nor am I foolish enough to think that Delta now regards Frontier as its New Best Friend. But it is now possible to imagine that Delta doesn't see Frontier as its Worst Enemy.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 78):
The WN hub-thingy might work westbound, but the eastbound gets into STL at 11:55pm. Westbound will have to rely on O&D or whatever minor feed they can muster from the SFO end.

Ah, thanks, I didn't check that. I guess there are still other hub-thingy benefits, though, such as size of the frequent flier base?

mariner'

[Edited 2014-03-25 14:27:10]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 81, posted (4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 16205 times:

WN is not like the big boys when it comes to war on routes. Another words, most airlines look to fight WN, but WN really just does what it does, and watches the big boys bleed money to fight the fight. If you can't live with WN as your neighbor, then it is best to just shut down, or move away. America West did just fine in Phoenix with WN. We know if America West always tried to beat WN, America West would have never become what it is today.

WN was coming to DEN no matter what. With or without F9. I think F9 has been pretty successful so far with WN in DEN. If F9 had decided to act like the old US Airways and fight a bloody battle, F9 would have been gone a long long time ago. WN will not play games or fight out of STL or CLE. I also don't think WN is seeing F9 as a raider, and won't react much over a few pesky flights. Had F9 tried to build up out of say MSP, we all know that DL would go ape poop.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (4 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 16122 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
For old Frontier hands, it suggests - maybe - a possible change in the relationship between the two airlines.

I have a suspicion this is best explained by the regional jet flying Republic did/does for DL. I suspect DL looks at at F9 as nothing more than a nuisance. I suspect DL has bigger fish to fry with AS



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 83, posted (4 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 16092 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 82):
I have a suspicion this is best explained by the regional jet flying Republic did/does for DL. I suspect DL looks at at F9 as nothing more than a nuisance. I suspect DL has bigger fish to fry with AS

Republic was flying extensively for Delta t the time of Frontier's MCI-MSP. It sure didn't help.

Delta's ferocious reaction was one of the causes of Frontier abandoning MCI as a hub-thingy, focus city, whatever.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 84, posted (4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15918 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 83):
Republic was flying extensively for Delta t the time of Frontier's MCI-MSP. It sure didn't help.

Airline    or feuds are like fine Brandy they tend to smooth over time.   



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15761 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 84):
Airline    or feuds are like fine Brandy they tend to smooth over time.   

or maybe turn to cheap vinegar like DL/AS?

  

[Edited 2014-03-26 12:16:31]

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15709 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 85):
or maybe turn to cheap vinegar like DL/AS?

I'm not a 100% convinced it's the vinegar everybody believes it to be, No doubt a tit-for-tat.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (4 months 6 days ago) and read 15593 times:
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Some good news for ILG travelers. Doubling of the baggage claim area and more parking spaces in the remote lot (only 50 but every little bit helps). With more improvements including increasing parking for the main lot down the road (late summer/early fall), but it does sound they they are planning on charging for parking then.

http://www.delawareonline.com/story/...irport-makes-improvements/6932611/



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3134 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 15368 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 81):
WN is not like the big boys when it comes to war on routes. Another words, most airlines look to fight WN, but WN really just does what it does, and watches the big boys bleed money to fight the fight. If you can't live with WN as your neighbor, then it is best to just shut down, or move away.

Like in PHL?



FLYi
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15329 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 87):

"Frontier, which started service out of the airport last summer, clocked 70,000 arrivals and departures in its first four months alone."

70,000 passengers on a single commercial airline in four months to seven or eight cities (RITA documents 6 through Dec 2013) with less than daily flying to most cities is impressive. http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map It looks like ILG to DEN, MDW and MCO are running a close 1-2-3 http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?pn=1 This data is current through December 2013 and documents where the aircraft fly and not necessarily where the people want to go.

Citing the criteria that got ILG-IAH whacked; the RITA data suggest RSW may succumb to the same fate. Strange that F9 would keep ILG-RSW which actually flew less people than ILG-IAH. The Florida factor I suppose.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (4 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15296 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 89):
Citing the criteria that got ILG-IAH whacked; the RITA data suggest RSW may succumb to the same fate. Strange that F9 would keep ILG-RSW which actually flew less people than ILG-IAH. The Florida factor I suppose.

Well its not necessarily load factors but the price of the tickets. ILG-IAH could be had for $91RT. Plus ILG-IAH is 400 miles and another hour longer flight.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 91, posted (4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15166 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 90):

Yes; I saw some ILG-RSW fares from $87 and a week later returning for $500 (I wonder what that's about) I checked several days in April and May. Using the rule of averages $130.00-ish seems to me the one-way norm.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 92, posted (4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15108 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 91):
Yes; I saw some ILG-RSW fares from $87 and a week later returning for $500 (I wonder what that's about)

It's fairly standard practise.

You can book a cheap fare going but maybe the fare coming back will be more expensive - or not, depending on the bookings. Or vice versa.

On April 1, Frontier is flying an extra section PHX-DEN, the first revenue flight of N223FR. Because it is an extra section, added quite late, just three days ago, to offset some of the cost they offered one way fares for $18. But you can't come back DEN-PHX for $18. You'll still get a pretty good fare for the return, but it won't be a $36 round trip.

That PHX-DEN flight is very well sold and the lowest fare now is $58 - but the return flight will still cost more.

Some people game the system and get low fares each way - but that requires some flexibility of travel dates.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 93, posted (4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14981 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
Some people game the system and get low fares each way - but that requires some flexibility of travel dates.

Or a one-way ticket on another carrier.

I have a suspicion the leisure airlines G4, F9, and NK price their fares around happenings in any given city. I wouldn't pay $400-$500 or more for a the return segment of my ticket. I would first look at ILG-RSW-TTN; The RSW-TTN segment prices for $117.00 when compared to the $400+ in the same week. If all else fails Then there is always the ambiance of Amtrak.

BNA in early and mid June is a example with two huge concert venues; The CMA (Country Music Association) Fest followed a week later by the Bonnaroo festival The fares around these venues are through the roof. One week before and a week after the fares come back down to earth (demand I suppose).

The CMA Fest concerts held at LP Field; home of the Tennessee Titans; American football franchise in Nashville sold out of the 4-day tickets in January and those were in the nosebleed section. Some single one-day concert tickets were available as of two weeks ago. Off course there is a lot going on down town Nashville along the Cumberland riverfront.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 94, posted (4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14899 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 93):
Or a one-way ticket on another carrier.

I have a suspicion the leisure airlines G4, F9, and NK price their fares around happenings in any given city. I wouldn't pay $400-$500 or more for a the return segment of my ticket.

In extreme cases perhaps, but generally - why? Average out the two fares and you've likely still got a good overall price.

These high fares are not common on Frontier - for shorter routes - and if they are happening for some special event, then it's probable the other airlines will be on to it, too, and ,may be charging as much or more.

You can always get lucky, of course.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14870 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 91):
Yes; I saw some ILG-RSW fares from $87 and a week later returning for $500 (I wonder what that's about) I checked several days in April and May

Probably some glitches, perhaps an errant routing via DEN on a day they didn't have a nonstop. I went thru the fare calendar for ILG-RSW and I didn't see any 400-500 fares. Did see its becoming Saturday only in the summer but no sky-high fares. F9 must like what they are seeing overall from ILG or I don't think the DRPA (operators of ILG) would be planning the improvements that they are.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5362 posts, RR: 12
Reply 96, posted (4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14858 times:

I've got another suggestion for the F9 route planners, especially if they're in a particularly "let's poke a stick at WN", as well as a "what else can we do in STL?' mind-set.

How about considering STL-SAN? This is a route that WN has "served" for almost 4 years now which is a very consistent 200 PDEW market (year round). Yet WN continues to serve the route nonstop and daily only for about 4-5 months (in the summer) and runs it Saturday only for a couple of months, and then ops nothing between the two cities for half the year. (It is, btw, the only seasonal route that WN op's from SAN.)

I was hoping that AS would jump into the city-pair with permanent daily service but that is not even a dream any more.

Seems like a very good candidate for Frontier. With a year-round PDEW of 200, and no nonstop service at all for half the year, I would think F9 could operate a daily flight in the market, so certainly sub-daily service should be a no-brainer for success.

(BTW, I hope F9 is also looking carefully at CLE-SAN as another potential route out of their "hub-thingy" in Ohio...)

bb


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 97, posted (4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14835 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 96):
(BTW, I hope F9 is also looking carefully at CLE-SAN as another potential route out of their "hub-thingy" in Ohio...)

For years the knock has been that CLE-SAN yields are too low (thanks to WN one-stop fares) for year-round service. F9, with a lower CASM, may be less bothered by this. Their 3-4 trips a week model could work very nicely in this market.

Let's see ... and on the other days of the week they could do CLE-MSY.  

The CLE bottleneck may be gates. F9 uses A11 exclusively and this summer they'll be operating as many as 8 dailies. This may be a practical limit for one gate. Additional gates are available, but not adjacent to A11. Whether F9 goes for another gate may be a good indication of their level of interest in CLE.



[Edited 2014-03-29 12:57:45]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14769 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 95):
Probably some glitches,

Possibly.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 95):
I went thru the fare calendar for ILG-RSW and I didn't see any 400-500 fares.

Using April 22 as the outbound date ILG-RSW the fare populates for $99. The return fare back to ILG four days later; Saturday April 26. populates at $519.99 The next Saturday the return fare is $124. If this was a real trip I would have to return to RSW to TTN and suck it up.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 99, posted (4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14786 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 97):
Whether F9 goes for another gate may be a good indication of their level of interest in CLE.

To a very real extent, that depends on Cleveland now. All the airline can do is offer.

We know that the early bookings are good, we know that Frontier has nominated CLE as a focus city, but the extent of it depends on those bookings sustaining.

There are some obvious routes it could add, depending on aircraft availability, but now we move into some interesting territory. The main hub - DEN - and the two other nominated focus cities (TTN and ILG) all have routes to MDW and CLE-MDW is a very dense route (Faremeasure says 470 ppd and CLE-ORD at 760 ppd).

But for Frontier to fly CLE-MDW would be a direct head butt with Southwest. This is not impossible, and there is already a sort-of fake head butt with Southwest which flies - seasonally - CLE-MCO/RSW, however infrequently. To go the whole hog with year-round CLE-MDW would be something of a change of direction for Frontier. CLE-ORD might alleviate some of that, but might also defeat the point of MDW.

There is always the completely unresolved question of Frontier and New England - BOS - and CLE-LAS is another route that Frontier probably should fly, but it's another head-butt with Southwest.

Then again, odder things have happened. I am now considerably more relaxed about Delta, which not only hasn't retaliated, but isn't even bothering to match Frontier fares, at least on CLE-RDU. On the several days I have checked, Delta is usually about $100/$120 roundtrip more expensive than Frontier and on some days it is more than double Frontier. The difference isn't nearly so extreme on CLE-ATL, but it is there.

Based on Orbitz, Delta appears to be filling its CR700 on the route very well, so if it does add another frequency on CLE-RDU I would now see that as a legitimate commercial response to good bookings, rather than just to kick Frontier in the nuts.

And - wow - have I ever been wrong about RDU. When Frontier first announced TTN-RDU I was scratching my head, but after some very early and soon resolved hiccups, TTN-RDU performs very well and will be daily this summer, if only for the summer.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-29 15:05:19]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14760 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 97):
The CLE bottleneck may be gates. F9 uses A11 exclusively and this summer they'll be operating as many as 8 dailies. This may be a practical limit for one gate. Additional gates are available, but not adjacent to A11. Whether F9 goes for another gate may be a good indication of their level of interest in CLE.

Glad to learn what gate F9 is using in CLE. I looked at the A terminal map; and it shows AA/US having most of the other gates. Do we know if there is to be any gate consolidation for the new AA at Hopkins? This would free up a gate or two and provide for more F9 flexibility and opportunity. I suspect, perhaps wishfully, that the CLE airport authority will find additional gate space for F9 in the not too distant future.

What about CLE - STL as a future route? At present SW does not fly it direct, but mainly via MDW and BWI. In looking at April 9 with a return on April 10, the cheapest SW fare was $113 via BWI, with most around $130 via MDW. This route would seem to be a natural at some point for F9.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14741 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 98):
Using April 22 as the outbound date ILG-RSW the fare populates for $99. The return fare back to ILG four days later; Saturday April 26. populates at $519.99 The next Saturday the return fare is $124. If this was a real trip I would have to return to RSW to TTN and suck it up.

When you gave me the dates,I did a bit of research, lowest nonstop fares on the 26th RSW-PHL are $500. $265 is available with connections but in places like DFW and ORD. Connections thru normal hubs like CLT and ATL are $406. TTN has $265 nonstop. If I had someone willing to pick me up from TTN (provided I lived in the ILG area) then perhaps I would do the ILG-RSW-TTN route If not I'd probably just drive to TTN and do the TTN-RSW-TTN roundtrip, even though the TTN-RSW flight costs $100 more than the ILG-RSW flight. If possible I'd prefer just changing my dates. I don't know what is happening April 26th but it is affecting all of the PHL area not just Frontier from ILG.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14695 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 101):
I don't know what is happening April 26th but it is affecting all of the PHL area not just Frontier from ILG.

Yes even WN flight RSW-PHL are for the most part sold out. The one flight remaining on April 26 is pricing for $311. something must be going on in PHL that weekend which is driving (or flying) up the prices. Perhaps some Liberty Bell thing.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 14685 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 102):
Perhaps some Liberty Bell thing.

A quick google search says that the Annual meeting of The American Academy of Neurology and a Star Trek Convention are in town. Apparently there are alot of either Trekies or Brain Surgeons in RSW LOL



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 104, posted (4 months 3 days ago) and read 14644 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 97):
F9 uses A11 exclusively and this summer they'll be operating as many as 8 dailies. This may be a practical limit for one gate. Additional gates are available, but not adjacent to A11

Turns out I'm wrong (nothing unusual about that). Both gates adjacent to F9 are common use gates, meaning F9 can use either one as needed. I mistakenly thought they were assigned to AA and US. Additionally, at the airport's option CLE can repossess up to six gates from UA, so if F9 wanted to get really serious almost anything is possible.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 105, posted (4 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14450 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
I am now considerably more relaxed about Delta, which not only hasn't retaliated, but isn't even bothering to match Frontier fares, at least on CLE-RDU.

Okay, I'm now fairly confident that there wouldn't be a kick in the nuts retaliation by Delta against frontier because of CLE-ATL/RDU.

When such retaliations have happened i the past, they have all been announced with ten days of Frontier announcing service and it's now been two and a half weeks. As I said above, if Delta does add a frequency or two now, it will be for legitimate commercial reasons.

But there is more. In the OAG thread it seems that Delta is ending MEM-DEN in the Fall, leaving just United and Frontier on the route - the old combo. I gather DEN-MEM has been booking very well (surely some of the fares are up there) and this can only be good news. I don't expect Frontier to add service on the route, but it may be a boost for the softer Fall season.

So I can only agree with the poster MasseyBrown who nailed it in the CLE thread: "I think it's 'Be Nice to Frontier" month in Atlanta.".

LOL.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-31 15:33:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (4 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14376 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 99):
When Frontier first announced TTN-RDU I was scratching my head, but after some very early and soon resolved hiccups, TTN-RDU performs very well and will be daily this summer, if only for the summer.

See what good whole hog North Carolina smoked pulled pork (a.k.a Carolina Q) gets you. One of my favorites is the Pit in Raleigh.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinepointer From United States of America, joined Nov 2013, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (4 months 17 hours ago) and read 14218 times:

A bit of good news for the a Frontier pilots. The NMB has determined we are not part of single status carrier. This means that The IMSL(integrated master seniority list) with RAH pilots is no longer valid! Things are finally turning around for F9 for the better. Congratulations to my fellow pilots! This is a big burden off our shoulders going forward.

User currently offlineBostonMike From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (4 months 11 hours ago) and read 14081 times:

Quoting pointer (Reply 107):
A bit of good news for the a Frontier pilots

That's great! Do you have a reference to the NMB ruling? Can't seem to find one anywhere.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 109, posted (4 months 9 hours ago) and read 14030 times:

Has Frontier indicated whether future aircraft deliveries will be for growth or to replace A319's?


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 110, posted (4 months 9 hours ago) and read 14011 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 109):
Has Frontier indicated whether future aircraft deliveries will be for growth or to replace A319's?

A slightly tricky balance of both - and there are some variables - so I think the future fleet is still a work in progress.

Everything is now geared around the arrival of the first A320Neo aircraft, which is presently planned for the end of next year. They don't want to take on too many extended leases of regular A320's with the Neo's on the horizon.

At the same time, Franke (Indigo) wants to increase the ratio of (regular) A320 to A319, so they are planning to replace some A319's with (regular) A320's but the aircraft they are replacing may not leave the fleet immediately.

Allied to that is whether they will keep the present balance of A320Neo to A319Neo - the contract began life as 40 of each, but that is now 60 x A320Neo and 20 x A319Neo.

They have also talked about using larger aircraft at TTN - presumably the A320 - if they can get the runway issues resolved, so if that happens the Neo order balance may change again. However - Republic got a zonklingly good deal as launch customer for the (poor selling) A319Neo, and I don't know if that deal would transfer.

Franke has also publicly talked about A321's, but I don't believe anything has happened about that yet.

So - a work in progress. Incidentally, today is also the first revenue flight of the latest A320 - N223FR - flying an extra section PHX-DEN and regular DEN-LAS tomorrow morning.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 111, posted (4 months 8 hours ago) and read 13973 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 110):
They don't want to take on too many extended leases of regular A320's

I guess a fairly short term lease on aircraft coming up on heavy checks might work; fly them until they cycle out and then turn them back for parting out.

Quoting mariner (Reply 110):
Franke has also publicly talked about ...

Where does he do this? The Denver Post?



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 112, posted (4 months 7 hours ago) and read 13937 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 111):
I guess a fairly short term lease on aircraft coming up on heavy checks might work; fly them until they cycle out and then turn them back for parting out.

That's way to go, but one of the things of which they are extremely wary is getting into the same pickle that "old" Frontier was in about 2004/2005.

That Frontier had a deal with Airbus for shiny new aircraft and kept on taking 'em - as the oil price was rising and the airline was starting to lose money - when they should have at least deferred some deliveries.

So they had to keep finding uses for those aircraft and some of them were not good choices. Now I assume that the level of business for the increased summer flying may be taken into account before they make any decisions.

Growth is good, but it needs to be tempered growth, not growth for growth's sake.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 111):
Where does he do this? The Denver Post?

I don't recall which article it was - there were several at the time in which he talked about reducing costs and the use of larger aircraft to do this. It was discussed here and Siegel remarked on it in a letter to the staff.

It was always a possibility - maybe A321's - not a carved in granite fact.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (4 months 7 hours ago) and read 13923 times:

Quoting pointer (Reply 107):
A bit of good news for the a Frontier pilots. The NMB has determined we are not part of single status carrier. This means that The IMSL(integrated master seniority list) with RAH pilots is no longer valid!

Very good news to hear. The previous union fiasco with the IBT has been a worry to the F9 flight crews. Glad this part of the legal maneuvering is finalized. There still remains a couple of issues that the IBT has filed court actions on that hopefully will be resolved in F9s favor.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 114, posted (4 months 5 hours ago) and read 13855 times:
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Here's a fun article from The Trentonian. It's actually about TTN, but Frontier is the reason - obviously - for it:

http://www.trentonian.com/general-ne...-fastest-growing-airport-in-nation

"Study: Trenton-Mercer airport is fastest growing airport in nation

On Tuesday, a 12-month study conducted by Sixel Consulting Group, Inc, attributes a 2715 percent bump in outbound passenger travel, at TTN, to Frontier Airlines decisions to make the regional airport the base of its east coast operations."


I will repeat that - the bump in outbound passenger travel was 2715%.

It gives some interesting facts - and numbers. Based on Frontier's average load factor (92%) the return to the airport from the Passenger Facility Charge is $2.2 million a year. That doesn't include parking or other revenue streams.

By comparison, there is this:

"Regionally, TNN fared much better than Newark International Airport with only a .6 percent uptick in air travel, compared to only a 0.1 percent uptick for Philadelphia International Airport."

But Frontier still only represents less than 5% of the actual (aircraft) traffic at TTN airport - there's a of of GA.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (4 months 5 hours ago) and read 13835 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
Based on Frontier's average load factor (92%) the return to the airport from the Passenger Facility Charge is $2.2 million a year.

Appears that the study corroborates what we have been hearing from Shurz and other a.netters that the loads going out are consistently doing well. Not sure if F9 has made much money (if any) yet from them; but at least it has set the stage for the upcoming quarters to show some profit. Assuming that the fares are more consistent with what is needed versus introductory new route lead fares.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (4 months 4 hours ago) and read 13776 times:
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Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 115):
Not sure if F9 has made much money (if any) yet from them; but at least it has set the stage for the upcoming quarters to show some profit. Assuming that the fares are more consistent with what is needed versus introductory new route lead fares.

People who started using Trenton for its cheap fares will likely return even if fares become more in line with other carriers due to its convenience. TTN has a large group of people (2.5 million) where they are closer to TTN then any other commerical airport.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 117, posted (4 months 3 hours ago) and read 13747 times:
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Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 116):
People who started using Trenton for its cheap fares will likely return even if fares become more in line with other carriers due to its convenience.

That;s surely part of it - as Frontier has said, they have to sell the airport as much as the airline and this applies particularly to the new routes.

Another may be simple route maturity. We know, because Shurz has said so, that TTN-MCO produces "strong revenues" for most of the year:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2...oks_at_more_distant_destinati.html

"The airline will move more aggressively in markets like Orlando that produce strong revenues 10 to 11 months of the year."

Generally, TTN fares seem to be higher than they were last year, with ATL right up there. It's something that I've been noticing more and more since Indigo, but is it Indigo or route maturity? A bit of both, maybe.

The catch is that too many high fares may defeat the point of the model. As Shurz says in the same article:

"“We’re betting on the idea that once it’s cheap enough to fly, they’ll fly,” he said. “When the low fare is $400 round-trip, it’s amazing how many people remember they have a car.”

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13575 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
"Regionally, TNN fared much better than Newark International Airport

For clarity the writer of the Trentonian article got the TTN IATA code wrong at least in part. It is not TNN. She actually wrote it correct in the first reference and fat fingered it in the second. TNN from my vantage point would be the Nashville Network in entertainment circles.

Where the name is the same or at least close could it be that both cities share a Titan's sports franchise. Who knows the Nashville ice hockey franchise Predators might look at Trenton ice hockey as a potential farm team. That would be interesting. Nashville NHL ice hockey needs all the help it can get.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 119, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 13531 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 118):
For clarity the writer of the Trentonian article got the TTN IATA code wrong at least in part. It is not TNN.

I'm inclined to go easy on her. I frequently turn Fort Lauderdale, FL into Fairfield, IA.  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13512 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 118):
For clarity the writer of the Trentonian article got the TTN IATA code wrong at least in part. It is not TNN. She actually wrote it correct in the first reference and fat fingered it in the second. TNN from my vantage point would be the Nashville Network in entertainment circles.

Where the name is the same or at least close could it be that both cities share a Titan's sports franchise. Who knows the Nashville ice hockey franchise Predators might look at Trenton ice hockey as a potential farm team. That would be interesting. Nashville NHL ice hockey needs all the help it can get.

The Trenton Titans hockey team has gone bankrupt and ceased operations.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 119):
I'm inclined to go easy on her. I frequently turn Fort Lauderdale, FL into Fairfield, IA.

I don't know about that, I sent her a email letting her know and she replied "Thank's" for letting me know. I got it right but some how it got changed.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13502 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 116):
TTN has a large group of people (2.5 million) where they are closer to TTN then any other commerical airport.

I guess I really did not realize the population numbers were that large near to TTN. The greater DEN area (six counties) doesn't have a lot more than this to draw on. Factor in the outlying driveable areas, then the DEN numbers jump. Good for TTN !!!

Frontier 14


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13387 times:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 120):
The Trenton Titans hockey team has gone bankrupt and ceased operations.

I didn't get that memo.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13414 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 122):
I didn't get that memo.

Yep they ceased operations April 23, 2013. I was on a flight with them from MCO to TTN in early February 2013 when they had come back from a game (which they lost BTW)

http://www.echl.com/trenton-ceases-operations-p183346



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 124, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13360 times:
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Here's a small turn-up for the books which slipped right under my radar. It's an almost throwaway line in this article, buried towards the bottom:

http://www.alaskadispatch.com/articl...ights-means-better-prices-alaskans

"Increased summertime flights means better prices for Alaskans

Frontier Airlines starts flying Anchorage-Denver on May 15. Although United has a competing Anchorage-Denver nonstop, Alaska Airlines has dropped its plans to offer a nonstop flight as well."


When Frontier first announced DEN-ANC, Alaska retaliated in about a nano-second, and, as far as I am aware, has down it every season since then - although I didn't check last year, I just took it as read. But - lo - the article is right, it doesn't appear in Alaska's booking engine for this year, or I couldn't find it.

This really is "Be Nice to Frontier Month" on some routes.  

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-02 16:47:03]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13297 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 124):

The airfares were were exceptional last Summer too; my wife flew from DCA-IAH-ANC on the outbound leg and ANC-DEN-DCA on the return leg for $392.00 round trip with all taxes included in late August.

Alaska would be so much more attractive to visitors if they lowered their lodging prices. It's no uncommon to find 2-3 star lodging facility in ANC going for $250.00 a night or more per night. The same room in the lower 48 outside of the large metropolis might cost $100.00 - $125.00 a night.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1787 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13280 times:

So, how many planes are painted in the new "FlyFrontier.com" liver?

User currently offlinejeepyjeep From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13389 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 126):

So, how many planes are painted in the new "FlyFrontier.com" liver?

I believe there are 4 --

N954FR - Mickey the Moose
N220FR - Finn the Tiger Shark
N221FR - Bugsy the Tree Frog
N223FR - Francesca the Flamingo (I believe, based on a Twitter post I saw the other day)

As much as I love Frontier, I'm not a fan of the new livery. I know they want to promote their website, but I think the old livery looks better.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 128, posted (3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13246 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 124):
This really is "Be Nice to Frontier Month" on some routes.

Or more likely, current new owner Indigo just isn't some dumb-cluck-airline-biz-dog to be kicked around - like a lot of former other owners of F9....... and this new dog probably has some sharp set of teeth that just may bite back if.......

 


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13094 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 128):
Or more likely, current new owner Indigo just isn't some dumb-cluck-airline-biz-dog to be kicked around - like a lot of former other owners of F9

He is a prior military infantry officer. Although I don't know what is battlefield experience is; being shot at or stepping in range of an enemy IED tends to make one real smart; real quick.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 792 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12860 times:

I've got a F9 trip in about a month. I've booked an economy ticket. Is there any way on the F9 web site to change to a Classic booking? I've looked at the reservation on the web site and don't see an obvious way to do so. Thanks for any info.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 131, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12556 times:

Looking at seat availability in June for some of the new CLE flights, I noted that the pricier seats seem to sell out first and in a higher proportion to availability than the lowest fare seats.

Is this generally true for Frontier? It makes me wonder if F9 is underpricing their premium product. Alternatively, are they offering too few higher priced seats?

[Edited 2014-04-09 11:13:34]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12527 times:
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Quoting mcg (Reply 130):
I've got a F9 trip in about a month. I've booked an economy ticket. Is there any way on the F9 web site to change to a Classic booking? I've looked at the reservation on the web site and don't see an obvious way to do so. Thanks for any info.

Technically the only way to do it is to "change" your reservation and pay the $75 change fee therefore killing any worth it may have. If you have alot of time on your hands you could probably beg the reservation center to waive the fee but I wouldn't hold my breath.



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 133, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12425 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 131):
Looking at seat availability in June for some of the new CLE flights, I noted that the pricier seats seem to sell out first and in a higher proportion to availability than the lowest fare seats.

Is this generally true for Frontier? It makes me wonder if F9 is underpricing their premium product. Alternatively, are they offering too few higher priced seats?

Bear in mind that those seat maps are not necessarily accurate. They don't always reflect third party (online travel agencies) bookings or Frontier may sometimes fudge them.

I also suspect that there have been some changes or refinements in the approach to revenue management since Indigo took over.

Beyond that it is a huge variable. Generally, but a long way from always, the lower prices seats go first, but there's a lot of psychology at work. Obviously, Frontier prefers the higher fares, so they may make the upgrade attractive. They can always raise the price of the lower end once those seats have sold.

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-09 13:50:48]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 134, posted (3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 133):
Bear in mind that those seat maps are not necessarily accurate.

  

I considered your comment and looked at some other routes. If we can take the seat maps as a somewhat reliable indicator, if not a highly accurate sales prediction, the pricey seats seem to sell first on long haul routes (CLE-SEA and CLE-PHX) but not on short haul (CLE-TTN and CLE-RDU), where sales from the various fare buckets appear to be balanced.

Again, using the seat maps as a guage, the CLE-PHX route would already seem to be a huge success, at least at the introductory fares. Maybe F9 will bump up the frequency a notch.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejeepyjeep From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11825 times:

Just saw on the Denver Post today that Frontier has appointed Barry L Biffle as President of the airline, reporting to David Siegel.

Looks like he's got ULCC experience and had worked for Spirit in the past.

More here: http://news.flyfrontier.com/press-re...-appoints-barry-l-biffle-president


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11722 times:
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Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 135):
Barry L Biffle

I'm sorry I'm sure he's qualified and all but that just sounds like a fake name to me  



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 137, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11537 times:

Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 135):
Frontier has appointed Barry L Biffle as President of the airline,
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 136):
that just sounds like a fake name to me

I've seen worse. I'm going back some twelve years; there was a kid on my sons baseball team in Juneau whose birth certificated name was "critter" In most places many would ask what kind of parent would give that name to a kid. In Alaska it's second nature I suppose. I just knew he was going to work for F9 when he got older. He should be about 21 now.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 138, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11434 times:
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Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 135):
Just saw on the Denver Post today that Frontier has appointed Barry L Biffle as President of the airline, reporting to David Siegel.

Interesting choice - from CEO of VivaColombia to President of Frontier. I sense the hand of Indigo here.

It leaves two major positions to fill - COO and CFO. They'll both be really really interesting, too, and any of the three could be considered eventual candidate for CEO, when and if Siegel leaves - which I'm not anticipating soon.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 139, posted (3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11139 times:
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They're a bit excited at St. Augustine - UST:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/...-augustine-trenton-flight/8168745/

"Trenton to St. Augustine flight expected to boost economy

The St. Augustine, Ponte Vedra and Beaches Visitors Bureau said the first flight is completely booked and expects thousands more tourists to now visit each year.

"We might see another 21,000 almost 22,000 more visitors," said Executive Director Richard Goldman. "Based on those folks' spending, it could mean 4 million more dollars being spent here in St. Augustine and Ponte Vedra."


There's just one problem - the airport isn't certified for passengers yet:

http://members.jacksonville.com/news...ommercial-travel-frontier-airlines

"One of the most important tasks for the airport authority to complete is getting the airport “federalized” again. Airport security for commercial flights is done by federal agents, and the St. Augustine airport has to be certified to have passengers screened — like any other airport with airline traffic.

The final approval hasn’t been granted yet, but Wuellner said the process has been moving along well. He expects federalization well before the Frontier flights begin.

“They are in the final stages of that,” Wuellner said. “We have every indication they will be ready to go by startup.”


Fingers crossed.

There's some good news for FAT, too. I knew it was going from 3 to 4 x weekly for the summer, but it seems it will "periodically" be 5 x weekly as well:

http://www.thebusinessjournal.com/ne...-airlines-adds-flights-from-fresno

"Frontier Airlines adds flights from Fresno

Beginning April 27, Frontier Airlines will push that number to four flights a week for a 36 percent increase in seats to Denver and beyond.

Frontier will also periodically offer five flights a week between April 27 and September 30.


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3056 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (3 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10955 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
There's just one problem - the airport isn't certified for passengers yet:

This "Federalization" must be something something different than the Federal Air Regs (FAR) Part 139 airport certification.
UST (St. Augustine) already appears on the FAA approved list under the airport designator SGJ as a class "A" airport http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/part139_cert/?p1=carriers. The Excel state-by-state spreadsheet link is located roughly 1/3 down the page. The certification requirements are mentioned here http://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_safety/part139_cert/?p1=process

As far as TSA screening; to my understanding TSA screeners should rove to UST most likely from JAX and DAY.

If my ultimate destination was Orlando I would certainly entertain the idea of flying TTN-UST or SGJ an rent a car a drive to to Orlando.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
There's some good news for FAT, too. I knew it was going from 3 to 4 x weekly for the summer, but it seems it will "periodically" be 5 x weekly as well:

This is good news as you say. Frontier's summer schedule also shows EUG going to 3X which is one more per week than last year  .

F9 is starting BFL - DEN at 3X and hopefully that will take off much like FAT has.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (3 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10867 times:
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Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 140):
If my ultimate destination was Orlando I would certainly entertain the idea of flying TTN-UST or SGJ an rent a car a drive to to Orlando.

I've said that before UST to the Disney Area is only a little over 2 hours. Though, you may want to take the differences in car rentals into consideration. And of course the difference in fares TTN-UST vs TTN-MCO. If someone was traveling with a family the savings could be worth it (especially during their promo fare periods).



Frontier Early Returns Ascent Status| Webmaster of an unoffical TTN page see profile for details
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5371 posts, RR: 7
Reply 143, posted (3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10821 times:

There is a discussion on another board of F9's possible return to domestic flying (DEN, etc.) in PHL in the wake of VX's departure. While it's possible, I suppose, it seems like a destructive self-diversion of traffic from TTN and ILG. It seems to me those airports first need to be built up to a size that could stand some amount of self-diversion first.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 144, posted (3 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10785 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 143):
There is a discussion on another board of F9's possible return to domestic flying (DEN, etc.) in PHL in the wake of VX's departure. While it's possible, I suppose, it seems like a destructive self-diversion of traffic from TTN and ILG. It seems to me those airports first need to be built up to a size that could stand some amount of self-diversion first.

I suppose a return to DEN-PHL is possible - I'm just not sure why.

When they did fly the route, before Virgin America, it was great in summer but "miserable" in winter so I don't really see the point.

Maybe seasonally, perhaps, but I think they have more interesting things to do with the aircraft.

ma



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinejerseyguy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10742 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
I suppose a return to DEN-PHL is possible - I'm just not sure why.

I agree with that, if there are high fares at PHL due to the withdrawal of VX, I think most people would drive to ILG or possibly TTN (providing they get that going). Also connections don't seem to be as much of a thought on Tower Road anyway, fares seem to be higher not of the caliber of discounts that I see on shorter flights. If anything we would see ILG-LAX, ILG-SFO possibly as redeyes at 3X weekly.



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User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10736 times:

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 141):

Quoting mariner (Reply 139):
There's some good news for FAT, too. I knew it was going from 3 to 4 x weekly for the summer, but it seems it will "periodically" be 5 x weekly as well:

This is good news as you say. Frontier's summer schedule also shows EUG going to 3X which is one more per week than last year  .

F9 is starting BFL - DEN at 3X and hopefully that will take off much like FAT has.

Frontier 14

Some of the 5X week out of FAT are related to schedule changes throughout the summer. Today, for example, we've 2X to DEN, a morning departure that likely went out full, while tonights 5pm is wide open and then some. 5pm on a Saturday will never generate much biz in this market.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25009 posts, RR: 85
Reply 147, posted (3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10729 times:
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Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 146):
5pm on a Saturday will never generate much biz in this market.

That's true of many markets.

CVG was gangbusters from the git-go - except, originally, for the Saturday evening flight. Again, it was a scheduling thing and eventually they were able to change it.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2741 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (3 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10720 times: