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What's Going On In CLE - Part 5  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 23019 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As part 4 became quite long it was locked for further discussion. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this thread. Part 4 can be found here:

What's Going On In CLE - Part 4 (by iowaman Oct 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the forums!

Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
302 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22980 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ctor_say.html#incart_river_default

New entrant discussion this AM on Cleveland.com


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22780 times:

The biggest item of interest I can find in the new Southwest schedule for CLE is the contiunuation of CLE-LAS beyond the summer schedule. The route appears to have become year-round.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 22756 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 1):
New entrant discussion this AM on Cleveland.com

Hmm... as a resident of Canton I love CAK and don't want to see WN shift any flights from CAK to CLE (Unlike many of the other posters on this forum). CAK has always pride itself on easy access, relaxed environment, and cheap fares. Now the UA is de-hubbing CLE and if the article is hinting more ULCC service in CLE I don't think things look too great for CAK. I don't see doom and gloom happening for my favorite little airport, but CLE will now provide cheaper fares and with less flights and less passengers a more relaxed environment (still not like CAK, but not as busy as previous years). I could see CAK losing some CLE originating passengers that may have made the drive down to CAK before if Frontier or Spirit start adding more sun destinations from CLE. That being said the folks at CAK run a pretty tight ship so I hope they are planning ahead accordingly.

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22646 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):

The biggest item of interest I can find in the new Southwest schedule for CLE is the contiunuation of CLE-LAS beyond the summer schedule. The route appears to have become year-round.

Interesting. So instead of starting CLE-PHX this fall, they are just going to keep the CLE-LAS going (head to head with UA) all year. I suppose they can easily shuttle PHX bound passengers through this LAS flight.

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 3):
Hmm... as a resident of Canton I love CAK and don't want to see WN shift any flights from CAK to CLE (Unlike many of the other posters on this forum). CAK has always pride itself on easy access, relaxed environment, and cheap fares. Now the UA is de-hubbing CLE and if the article is hinting more ULCC service in CLE I don't think things look too great for CAK. I don't see doom and gloom happening for my favorite little airport, but CLE will now provide cheaper fares and with less flights and less passengers a more relaxed environment (still not like CAK, but not as busy as previous years). I could see CAK losing some CLE originating passengers that may have made the drive down to CAK before if Frontier or Spirit start adding more sun destinations from CLE. That being said the folks at CAK run a pretty tight ship so I hope they are planning ahead accordingly.

I don't think doom and gloom is on the horizon for CAK. CAK has branded itself as the low cost airport of NE Ohio, but I do think they'll end up losing a lot of passengers who previously drove down from Lorain/Cuyahoga/Lake Counties. We all know that CAK's explosive growth over the past decade came from discount leisure travelers looking for bargain flights. CAK will probably start to see their passenger levels return to early 2000s levels over the next few years if CLE prices drop a bit.

For example, Frontier announced year round service from CLE to MCO. That will likely siphon off those families bound to Orlando on cheap AirTran CAK flights from the Cleveland area. If you notice on today's WN announcement, CAK-MCO drops from twice daily to once daily this fall. Not sure if that's a seasonal adjustment, however I'm pretty sure CAK-MCO has been twice daily year round. Perhaps WN is factoring in lighter projected loads at CAK. WN also reduced CAK-BOS to 1x daily, this had also been 2x daily for quite some time.

CAK has fed off price conscious consumers and with WN being their major carrier now, folks in NE Ohio searching on internet sites like kayak will no longer see those fares show up when they select "show nearby airports". With once a year travelers not being very savvy or familiar with southwest, this could hurt CAK and help CLE. I have noticed that CAK has started an advertising campaign telling people that they can only find fares on southwest.com.

With that said, if F9 comes into CLE and adds a flight to TPA and FLL this fall, it will really hurt CAK. But who's to say that Spirit doesn't open up shop in CAK and bring fares lower than CLE?

CAK runs a pretty good airport and their branding/marketing are excellent. However, every time I've flown from CAK, it's been on Delta and the old terminal where the legacy carriers operate is anything but pleasant, comfortable, and relaxed.

In the end, it's sad that our two airports have to fight for the same passengers. Inevitably growth at CLE comes from CAK and vice versa. Hopefully CLE and CAK can both find their own niche and make it work. But with CAK now riding almost solely on WN, they are in the same boat as CLE was last year riding solely on UA.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 22589 times:

As a Clevelander I can tell you I will stop driving down to CAK the day that CLE has competitive airfares, hate to say it because I do find CAK very pleasant. I'm sure the folks at CAK are sweating some bullets big time. UA kept fares artificially high at CLE and if that disappears then what reason do Cuyahoga county residents have to make the drive down south.

It is VERY interesting to me that WN couldn't make MDW-CAK flights work, and I'd suggest the reason is that unlike LGA or BOS, CLE already had low fares to MDW. CAK didn't add anything to the equation beyond what Clevelanders get out of CLE. If JetBlue comes to CLE that would really be a dagger to CAK.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 22499 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 4):
I don't think doom and gloom is on the horizon for CAK.

I don't either. Typically low-fare carriers expand the total market; it's not zero-sum. CAK may lose some travelers to new low-fare flights at CLE, but not enough to cripple service.

[Edited 2014-03-04 00:17:55]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 22440 times:

Somewhere in the archives approximately the time that CO announced their CDG service and CLE expansion, I wrote a piece on a.net that NEOhio should close CAK and all flights should be transferred to CLE. The message was we don't have enough to support a full hub (20mm pax or so) but we could pool our resources to make CLE work and that we needed to take advantage of CO's problem with EWR congestion and their willingness to expand here. That would have added .5-.7mm pax to CLE at the time, lowered fees, etc. I got blasted for this nutty post. This was pre Skybus and pre CVG demise. The point was strengthen one airport for the region, not have two more vulnerable ones.

Now, post UA hub, would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?


User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22388 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 7):
Now, post UA hub, would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?

I think the biggest thing with your suggestion is how unlikely it would ever be to happen. Why would Summit and Stark County ever agree to shut down CAK so that CLE could get a little boost in passengers? The economic gains from CAK are way more than I'm guessing you realize. For people and businesses (Yes there are businesses in Canton and Akron believe it or not) who live in Canton, Youngstown, Akron etc. you would take away our preferred airport to save an overpriced hub. If UA was just going to keep airfares artificially high like they did I don't think it would have changed anything, NE Ohio would have just been screwed even more when UA shut down the hub. On my hop up to Detroit last month I sat next to a lady who drove down from Erie, PA because of the price and convenience of CAK (her words).

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 4):
CAK runs a pretty good airport and their branding/marketing are excellent. However, every time I've flown from CAK, it's been on Delta and the old terminal where the legacy carriers operate is anything but pleasant, comfortable, and relaxed.

Yep, I do agree with this point! On the next chat with the president I want to ask if the gate expansion of the new wing is still on track. I fly Delta out of CAK almost exclusively (having just moved up here permanently from ATL I have all Delta sky miles, etc) and I agree when Delta is trying to load 2 flights and US Airways is trying to load 2 flights all at the same time (Monday mornings are the worst) the old small terminal is way overcrowded. Especially since Delta is flying all mainline to ATL from CAK now! (They still may have a few Rj flights but most of what I see is Mad Dog's) That right there shows how many passengers I think they have managed to grab. I hope that CAK will expand the new gates and move Delta flights up to those gates, or at least the Atlanta MD88 flight.

-ATLFLyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22376 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 5):
It is VERY interesting to me that WN couldn't make MDW-CAK flights work,

They were running 2x flights up against 5x CLE-MDW and I think there are something like 16x CLE-ORD. It doesn't make sense to run those flights to MDW. WN is better off running the 2x DEN this summer they are. I would like to see another flight to something like STL or BNA from them out of CAK, but they obviously have other fish to fry right now.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22325 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 7):
would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?

Total 2013 traffic for CAK was 1.7 million pax compared to CLE's 9.1 million. Obviously adding CAK traffic wouldn't have hurt, but, since CLE O&D rose very nicely over the past two years, I'm starting to think the pilot shortage at the regionals had more to do with it than I first imagined.

While the hub-closure has long in everybody's mind, the final decision came after Christmas. The pressure on UA from Wall Street was to improve operating margins; the easy way to do that was to reduce regional flying. I'm guessing things came to a head when (according to a recent report) ExpressJet told UA they didn't have enough pilots to operate their future schedules. UA needed to cut fast. A collateral benefit would be the chance to dump more 50-seaters. Cutting CLE represented a pretty tidy surgical excision. It made sense for UA, sucked for CLE.

But it's done, the axe has fallen; the suspense is over. Maybe Smisek will tell the *whole* story in his book, assuming he writes one. "From First to Worst" is so tempting a title suggestion.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22288 times:

Any thoughts on what a 2014 or 2015 passenger count total would look like at CLE?

Interestingly, I picked a few random dates this summer after the official hub closure and noticed that flights are still connecting through CLE on United. Several dates have ALB-LAX and ALB-SFO via CLE as the cheapest option. Likewise BOS-STL routings are cheapest through CLE. Any thoughts or ideas on how many PAX a de-hubbed or focus city like CLE might still connect?

[Edited 2014-03-04 09:39:11]

User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 22268 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
Maybe Smisek will tell the *whole* story in his book, assuming he writes one. "From First to Worst" is so tempting a title suggestion.

Excellent title!!!!

Although I do believe there are too many fortress hubs, which CLE wasn't, and attention way too much attention to them by legacy carriers, the fact that CLE was CO's most profitable hub at one point, (before putting all their eggs into the basket for IAH and EWR at CLE expense) is fact a lot of a.netters can probably not fathom given their brainwashed measurements of what it takes to operate a successful hub.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 22185 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 11):
Any thoughts on what a 2014 or 2015 passenger count total would look like at CLE?

UA is pulling about 200 flights a day (in + out) on the average. So 200 x 50seats x 77% load factor is 7700 pax a day reduction or about 2.8 million annualized. Since the announcement, DL has added 560 seats and Frontier 600 seats daily; so using the same calculation that adds back about 890 pax/day or 325 thousand annualized.

Note: The loss of non-stop service in a market means the market absolutely shrinks, it does not mean that all the traffic goes to connecting flights.

So with that said, and acknowledging some double counting involved, and further assuming nothing else changes from what we know today, I'd suggest a SWAG might be 9.1 minus 2.8 plus .325 giving CLE a 2014 pax count of 6.625 million of which about 5 million will be O&D.

For comparison purposes, PIT, with no hub, was about 8 million for 2013 and CVG, with what DL still calls a hub, was about 6 million.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 494 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 22070 times:

Good math Massey. It may take a while, but there is no reason whatsoever that CLE's passenger count shouldn't be 100% identical to PIT. Both markets are about the same size, both are drivable to about the same number of major markets-- if anything PIT is more drivable to DC and NY (which competes with flying), and PIT doesn't really have any zany destinations that would be a stretch for CLE, save CDG.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 21991 times:

Correction: my SWAG of 6.625 million CLE pax for 2014 should be an annualized number, not the actual count for the year, which will reflect 5 months of higher UA passenger counts


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 21957 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:
Note: The loss of non-stop service in a market means the market absolutely shrinks, it does not mean that all the traffic goes to connecting flights.

Is this because, as a result of no direct flights between two cities, some trips are not taken at all that otherwise would be? If so, what percentage of such trips are lost? And are the trips lost to trips being taken by other modes or foregone altogether?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 21931 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 16):
Is this because, as a result of no direct flights between two cities, some trips are not taken at all that otherwise would be? ... And are the trips lost to trips being taken by other modes or foregone altogether?

Yes. Some lost traffic might also use other means of travel, but some people will just stay home.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 16):
If so, what percentage of such trips are lost?

That number is probably available but I don't know it. It is an accepted Dept of Transportation assumption that adding non-stop service will increase total traffic by at least 20%. So a decrease of 20% might be a reasonable number if non-stop service is lost.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 21712 times:

Effective June 16th, Air Canada (Jazz) will add a fourth CLE-YYZ trip, all Dash-8-100s.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 615 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21491 times:

Not commercial, but:

FAA investigates after plane goes off Burke runway--this past Thursday night. Airport didn't close.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/2014/03/06/plane-off-runway/6145307/


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5598 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21091 times:

Awesome Frontier news.  

I hope the city supports them. It's a nice mix of destinations. F9 has to start slowly, i.e. less-than-daily frequencies, because of fleet and financial limitations, but they'll grow if they get support.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11656973.htm

[Edited 2014-03-11 08:51:37]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1089 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21057 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):
Awesome Frontier news.

Didn't see them picking up this many locations, big deal once daily. Great CLE news. 12 destinations!


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21015 times:

I would expect United to only fly to the main hubs in a year or two!


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineoflanigan From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20966 times:

Will they take gates down on A or is this a play to get them into the B Concourse? New air service, you would hope the City would open the doors wide for Frontier.

So much for Southwest jumping at the chance to fill a void. This is what people in PIT thought would happen when US Airways left and Republic owned Frontier. Good for Cleveland.


User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20944 times:

I just saw this on the CLE Instagram, very exited for CLE! I was surprised by the ATL flight, this now provides a lot of options to ATL from NE Ohio. I wonder if UA is going to stay on the route, they fly by far the smallest equipment or if we will see it dropped eventually.

I'm also kinda excited about what this could mean for WN and CAK. I'm hoping WN won't want to fight Frontier too much and CLE and will decide to keep their sizable operations in CAK where they won't face ULCC competition.   Here's to hoping! Haha

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
25 MasseyBrown : I think Frontier finds CLE more immediately useful than any other airline does at the moment. They are small and struggling with one hub (DEN) in whi
26 lakeeffect : Look at the new F9 flights from CLE, now look at WN's destination list from CAK. With F9's competitive pricing, this should stop the bleed of CLE area
27 Post contains images atlflyer323 : I don't really think there is much of a possibility for a TATL flight from CLE right now anyways, sadly. Yep, as long as CLE and Frontier can do a go
28 Post contains images MasseyBrown : We are always optimistic, atlflyer.
29 mariner : Actually, Frontier has 80 aircraft on order - 60 x A32Neo and 20 x A319Neo (although the balance of that may change in favour of the A320Neo) - with
30 ncflyer : This is exactly why CLE will be better off without a hub, in spite of the ridiculous advertising campaign by the Cleveland Growth Association "UNITED
31 Flytravel : Although the CLE-TTN schedule increases from 2x to 4-5x weekly, it loses the Sunday service. With these new CLE additions and both CLE and TTN as focu
32 fun2fly : It's interesting that Frontier will have 12 destinations and UA 20. Once Frontier gets a/c to go daily, seems plausible that they could challenge UA i
33 lakeeffect : I still think DL has more announcements for CLE. I was just browsing the summer schedules on the Delta website and noticed that the last flight of the
34 atlflyer323 : Could that be for one of their new routes to IND, RDU, or BDL? I believe I read that at least one of those will be a CRJ-900 flight and both Endeavor
35 Post contains images MasseyBrown : There's a CR7 that apparently sits all day in CLE also; that made me wonder about another flight or two. A DL-knowledgable poster has cautioned, howe
36 mbm3 : I remain ever so optimistic for B6 to announce BOS and FLL and curious as to whether VX might consider DAL, SFO & LGA.
37 lakeeffect : Good to know. I'd say if DL really wanted to grab some of the CLE market, they'd have at least a 1x daily 717 to MSP and LGA. With F9's willingness t
38 Post contains images point2point : IIRC, CLE pax are some 72% O&D, so the premium pax are there. And now that UA has finally made its decision and gotten off the can here, it seems
39 mariner : These days, United and Frontier seem to coexist quite well on any number of routes out of DEN - SBA, FAT, EUG, BZN, MOT, BIS, FAR, MSN, ANC, FAI - th
40 MasseyBrown : This winter WN is flying CLE-MCO and CLE-RSW once a week on Saturdays. I doubt they care about CLE-Florida on a daily basis and with F9 in the mix I
41 MasseyBrown : Mideast Jet N777AS (B772) is due in from SNN around 3:30PM today. Another medical mission.
42 n797mx : Any idea when it will leave? I can't get up there right now.
43 MasseyBrown : It's scheduled to depart for JFK at 1924 this evening.
44 Flytravel : I wouldn't say it's so slim. The precedent is just on the other side of the state, where WN chose to keep FL's routes in DAY but not move to CVG. The
45 ATLFlyer323 : That's the route I fly the most, and the competition between DL and WN/FL over the years has been great for the traveler! DL has even upped their fli
46 PITrules : I wouldn't consider that precedent because neither WN nor FL served CVG.
47 Flytravel : WN could have moved the route BWI-DAY route to BWI-CVG. But it instead chose to just convert the DAY station to a WN station and make Baltimoreans ha
48 lakeeffect : I would agree. WN is CLE's second largest carrier with a little over 900k PAX per year. Last year WN carried 0 PAX from CVG. There is no precedent or
49 michman : I suspect they were still recovering from the weather mess on Wednesday.[Edited 2014-03-16 06:18:25]
50 Flytravel : It didn't work because it was self competing with CLE-MDW. Everything has to be considered in context. I just stated that there is possibility of CAK
51 MasseyBrown : Fun to compare CLE and CAK daily O&D numbers for some random cities where both have non-stop service, one has service, or neither has service. Cit
52 krod031 : Interesting. How do you get these numbers?? UA Has 3x daily CAK-ORD and US runs 1x daily CAK-DCA.
53 lakeeffect : FYI, US Airways flies a 1x daily CAK-DCA (surprised that survived the slot divestiture), UA does a 3x daily CAK-ORD. But the O&D numbers themselv
54 Post contains links MasseyBrown : Thanks for the service corrections. The numbers are from Table 1A of the DoT Consumer Air Fare Report for the Third Quarter, 2013. (Note: Don't use T
55 lakeeffect : Thanks for posting this. I thought it'd be interesting to see Q3 2012 versus Q3 2013 for CAK/CLE - PDX. You can definitely see the effect that adding
56 ncflyer : I've seen it mentioned several times that WN is going to a single daily CAK to BOS but I don't see it. On my trips this summer to BOS I have two choic
57 swacle : WN/FL never served CVG.....
58 Post contains images mariner : I think that was his point - that given a choice between CVG and DAY, Southwest chose DAY. Who knows why - lower costs, perhaps? Or because Airtran w
59 MasseyBrown : End of summer schedule for Frontier shows frequency decreases as follows: SEA from 3 per week to 0 FLL from 3 to 2 MCO from 6 to 5 TTN from 4 to 3 ATL
60 mariner : Generally, Frontier cuts back Florida frequency from mid September to mid November. mariner
61 flyguy89 : But it still isn't comparable to CAK vs. CLE. Neither WN nor FL served CVG so there was never a choice of "CVG or DAY", it was "keep DAY or cut it".
62 mariner : It may not be - I didn't make that point. But merger or not, Airtran or not, it still amused me that that Southwest chose DAY over CLE, just as it am
63 lakeeffect : F9 was doing some of these flights via CVG and PIT this past season, so this is nothing new. It goes 1x daily on August 9th. Perhaps it's just 1x dai
64 mariner : Now that Frontier CEO Siegel has told the staff that CLE is a Frontier focus city, the winter schedule will be interesting. Up until now the CLE-CUN
65 MasseyBrown : I heard from two JetBlue employees that CLE was high on their list for BOS and FLL. Neither source was especially well-placed, but hearing the rumor
66 mariner : Not local traffic, same with ORD-STL. They could, but whether they will is unknown to me. It's only a very few flights a week and would require some
67 MasseyBrown : CLE-PIT was never much of an O&D market. CO and US both used it for hub feed purposes. CLE-CVG, however, used to be a decent market. In the quart
68 Frontier14 : Yes, I would agree with you that we may find some surprises going forward in CLE. Now that it has officially been designated a F9 focus city I would
69 N766UA : No. It's barely a 2 hour drive, and an easy one at that. I can't imagine anyone who would prefer to fly that. It looks that way, fortunately! I since
70 mariner : I could see that, although initially as a through flight - CLE-CVG-CUN - with, say, CLE-CVG-RSW as well, given the early response to CLE-RSW. CLE has
71 N766UA : You can still make money, be a ULCC, and have a quality product! Human-sized legroom, comfortable seats, good customer service, and quality buy-on-bo
72 Post contains links mariner : Sure, they can. I just posted that they're spending $30 million on new seats, and one of the conditions for those seats is the comfort factor. But Fr
73 MasseyBrown : Apple flew CLE-PVR one winter using USA3000 as their carrier. They did not repeat it, while CUN, PUJ, SJU, and NAS have had CLE flights for a good nu
74 mariner : When Frontier started MCI-MSP, Delta overlaid five of Frontier's routes from MCI, including one that Frontier had just cancelled. When Delta found ou
75 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Silver may be hanging around CLE longer than expected. Apparently nobody's lining up to provide replacement service at the five EAS points. Their cont
76 greenair727 : ^Didn't Silver try to get DOT approval to move those flights to IAD? Was that denied?
77 MasseyBrown : I believe Silver's current approach is to try to get an early rebid on the routes rather than transfer them. Silver is having pilot problems, like all
78 cle757 : I wonder if UA is surprised at how quickly Frontier and Delta have added new service to CLE
79 Post contains links avnut43 : cleveland.com had a series of stories regarding Burke Lakefront and what should be done with it. Burke Lakefront Airport: Should it close? http://www.
80 MasseyBrown : I was wondering the same thing. I think UA had planned on a long and profitable goodbye (a politer term than ef-you), as route by route their CLE ser
81 fun2fly : The amazing part for me is the routes they are cutting: LAX (down at least 1 RT), SFO (down at least 1 RT), plus SEA & PDX (1/2 RT). These were m
82 Post contains images MasseyBrown : I think F9 scrambled to get into the CLE market before anybody else did. It'll be fun to see how they schedule when they have more time to plan. I'm h
83 mariner : I doubt Frontier will be a high frequency airline at CLE - or anywhere. It isn't designed for frequency nor road warriors. Higher frequency - the bus
84 Flytravel : I think what was meant was more frequency, perhaps as in routes going about 6x weekly or 1x daily (like TTN-MDW). Higher frequency than 3x weekly but
85 mariner : I suppose that's the point I don't understand. Whatever harm United has experienced at CLE it has done to itself and Frontier and United have differe
86 MasseyBrown : I think Frontier could schedule a flight from Cleveland to Richard Anderson's driveway and Delta wouldn't care. I kind of wish they did, but I doubt
87 mariner : As I said above, Delta has always cared before and my reactions are based on past experience, and the quite recent past - Frontier's MCI-MSP and Delt
88 Flytravel : I don't think CLE-RDU by DL will affect F9's CLE-RDU. Both might just expand the market. I just checked on 8/12 (Tuesday) to 8/14(Thursday). DL has o
89 Frontier14 : I am inclined to consider F9 trying CLE - STL at a future date. This will bump up against Southwest; but it will also connect the dots for two Fronti
90 mariner : What will it really do? Who knows and I am hoping nothing. But I have explained at some length it has done a lot in the past: If does not react this
91 lakeeffect : F9 was handed CLE on a platter. UA thought that by dehubbing CLE when they did, it was going to prevent any other carriers from significantly modifyin
92 Flytravel : I'm not sure CLE-BOS and CLE-FLL are that dependent. B6 has PIT,PHL,DTW,ORD with BOS flights but none of these cities having FLL flights from B6. I t
93 greenair727 : Hardly neutral---very painful to even read as its ultimately an opinion set pushing for closure---just look at the title of three of the articles: th
94 MasseyBrown : CLE-CLT is 156 pax/day. CLE-BNA is 346 pax/day. There's room for F9 on the BNA route if it's just a couple of flights a week. That was a mystery. It
95 mariner : There may be room, but I just don't see the point of poking a burnt stick in Southwest's eye in that particular case when there are other very good r
96 lakeeffect : Well things are about to get interesting to the DC market! In one of the other threads it's suggested that WN will be using 2 of their DC slots for D
97 YNGguins : I just do not see SWA shifting from CLE to CAK, I see it in the exact opposite direction. I do not believe CAK has the size to have all of SWA's fligh
98 lakeeffect : The United pull down is in full swing over the next 7 days. A laundry list of destinations will be having their last flights. Oddly, it seems like Uni
99 ncflyer : Rome wasn't built in a day, and I suspect it will be a good 12 to 18 months before the airlines are able to react and reach a new equilibrium-- and th
100 steeler83 : All of this news about CLE becoming a F9 focus city is making my blood boil. CLE is about to soar, while PIT stumbles. As PIT tries to find another CE
101 joeman : Certainly happy about the F9 effort. Time will tell if CLE actually soars or remains victim, like PIT to our beloved U.S. super-hubs. Not sure why de
102 MasseyBrown : United didn't match CAK-BOS fares in CLE, and I doubt they will to DCA either. It's hard to say what their long-term plan is. It seems obvious that D
103 joeman : Too bad UA couldn't find a way to "use" CLE in a similar way that CO did when it was once on skid row and made a complete turn around the time CLE wa
104 chrisjake : With the way the aviation/airline business is changing, this is not out of the question as it was done by a few carriers back in the 70s and 80s usin
105 greenair727 : Yes, JAT did something like that. I'm not sure of the rules at that time and at least now, one must clear immigration at the first port of entry. But
106 MasseyBrown : In a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA routing, everyone would have to clear customs in PIT in order for the carrier to pick up pax in PIT for the PIT-CLE-FRA sectors.
107 greenair727 : ^but what if NEW pax were not carried on PIT-CLE, would the CLE-bound pax still have to clear in PIT, or could they do so in CLE? If in CLE, then some
108 chrisjake : as well as Air Canada (747), Delta (A310), Pan Am (A310) and American Eagle (707) from what I can recall. It was seasonal and only a couple of days p
109 greenair727 : ^wow, didn't know that. What were the routings of those airlines? Or at least, what was the foreign city?
110 chrisjake : Air Canada was London....but not sure which London airport. American Eagle was Frankfurt and I believe possibly other German cities depending on the
111 steeler83 : If it was something DL took over, I'm thinking the foreign city was FRA. I know DL picked up the PA hub there when PA shut down. It would make sense.
112 PITrules : Lets keep things in perspective. So far F9 has announced 12 cities for CLE on less than daily service, and Delta a few as well, once daily. So lets s
113 ncflyer : Somehow PITrules I think Frontier is smart enough to analyze the current and future cost structure in CLE before they made their decision to absolute
114 Post contains links mariner : Well - maybe. It has also been suggested in the press that Frontier has a deal with the airport. http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...owering_airli
115 PITrules : In the grand scheme of things, I agree the airport's cost structure isn't much for an airline's overall costs, especially compared to fuel and labor.
116 Post contains links mariner : Sure, but - especially as a low fare airline - I very much doubt Frontier would have announced CLE as a focus city without being fully aware of what
117 chrisjake : It was a scheduled seasonal flight that ran for 2 summers. I'm pretty sure I remember it operated on Thursdays and Sundays. Flight number was ACA080
118 steeler83 : I hope that is something that will change... Having said that, I'm wondering if F9 remains committed to serving CLE, perhaps the cost per enmplanemen
119 mariner : Yes, if flights are added, then I assume it helps keep overall costs down and yes, in terms of new entrants, I assume there are deals, however long t
120 michman : I'm pretty sure all that it is saying is that F9 does not have UA's extensive lease obligations and hence it has lower costs per enplanement. F9 woul
121 mariner : Where did "back room deals" come from? Things like waivers of landing fees are common and usually available to all airlines, and I don't even know if
122 PITrules : Do you remember the years? I collect timetables and can get to the bottom of this. With the strict Bermuda II bilateral agreement in place I don't se
123 MasseyBrown : F9's introductory fares are only for 60 days, with the last of the current offers expiring August 10, 2014. Thereafter the lowest fare each way will
124 chrisjake : This is exactly what it was. It was in the early 1980s. I remember back then the "Travel" section of the Cleveland Plain Dealer Sunday newspaper woul
125 Post contains links and images point2point : This appears to be pretty well done.... I think maybe that CLE's pax numbers may be a bit higher - but that's the optimist in me, and if so, it won't
126 MasseyBrown : Thanks for your analysis. Assuming my 6.625 million pax number is correct, I'm betting your numbers are pretty close to correct. One thing, though ..
127 Post contains links and images PITrules : Thanks; pretty cool to have an Air Canada 747 provide these flights. You mentioned you had additional pics, feel free to post those to the thread if
128 steeler83 : Man, according to that pic, that's a 747-100! Those were still around in the late 1990s?!! I'll be a son of a gun...
129 chrisjake : Here's a couple I have on my flickr account. https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6839214523/in/set-72157627827713790 https://www.f
130 atlaaron : I recently flew UA on CLE-DEN and then ORD-CLE and both flights were basically 100% full. Of course those are both destinations that are not going to
131 michman : I disagree that it is all that common and where a fee waiver in exchange for new service is in place, it is published somewhere. I have seen nothing
132 Post contains links mariner : I;ve never claimed that Frontier is getting any fee waivers or any incentives at CLE - I've never read anywhere that it is and I have no idea if CLE
133 PITrules : Thanks for sharing; I loved the classic pics and Concorde & M.E. 747s
134 michman : Exactly, and with all the attention being paid to CLE I find it unimaginable that they would have a fee waiver program in place for new service witho
135 mariner : Since I have never claimed that there are fee waivers - at CLE - I really don't know why it has become such an issue. That may be - I don't know. CLE
136 MasseyBrown : UA has already reduced their schedule again. Flights to ALB and BWI will also end in June.
137 joeman : No surprise is there? Pretending they would maintain 72 "daily" flights now that daily means maybe 3 or more a week coupled with seasonal adjustments
138 lakeeffect : No shock at ALB. UA was operating this less than daily the past few weeks and had an erratic April and May schedule loaded. I figured they were dropp
139 MasseyBrown : And maybe not all of the hubs. The domestic schedule at Dulles are getting pruned regularly. Once Commutair shifts its base out of CLE, I could see t
140 fun2fly : Amazingly quick the dismantling of the CLE Hub. Not sure of the IAD cuts due to the international traffic esp since UA had 3x when they weren't CO, b
141 mats : The Air Canada flight was to London/Heathrow. The JAT DC-10 flew to Zagreb and Belgrade. The Delta A310-300 and L1011-500 flew Cleveland-Detroit-Londo
142 lakeeffect : United doesn't seem too interested in defending their territory in Cleveland, it seems. I needed a flight to Denver and when I checked, Frontier was
143 Post contains links mariner : That has a long and complicated history. When Southwest arrived at DEN, both United and Frontier tried to match, United especially added bulk frequen
144 MasseyBrown : WN, when they could make 20 minute stops and 35 minute turns, used to budget 10 departures per day per gate. UA can maybe do 7; if you allow a little
145 Post contains links mariner : I'm all in favour of cities trying to attract new service and if it takes revenue guarantees, okay, if they can find the money. This has me a bit bamb
146 fun2fly : AA adds frequency cannot bear well for the long term viability of DFW on UA. AA DFW-CLE JUL 3>4 AUG 3>4 SEP 3>4 OCT 3>4 NOV 3>4
147 N766UA : Looks like AA's CLE-ORD's go to almost all E175's this summer, too.
148 Post contains links MasseyBrown : Lots of background info here: UA Considering YNG-ORD (by YNGguins Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)
149 MasseyBrown : We've seen AC, DL, F9, and now AA respond to UA's pull down in amazingly quick fashion when compared to what has happened in other cities that lost hu
150 mbm3 : I would not be surprised to see more CLE increases - and even new routes - from the new AA as they too take advantage of the UA foolishness.
151 steeler83 : I wonder if that would mean larger aircraft on PHL-CLE, perhaps some E75s or CR7s at the very least?
152 MasseyBrown : In AA's July schedule, CLE-PHL will be 1 - CR9, 1 - E75, 1 - E70, and 3 - CRJ's.
153 flyinryan99 : I read where this summer some of US A319s are going to MIA...I wouldn't be surprised to see places like CLE and PIT be upgraded from E145s to A319s b
154 Post contains images mariner : Is it ever! LOL. Thanks for that - I usually stay clear of the OAG threads - but for an old Frontier watcher there has been quite a change in Delta's
155 N766UA : When it comes to DFW, AAL isn't exactly "responding." 3X MD80's = 420 seats, whereas 3X A319 + 1X CR7 = 447 seats. It's really a pretty minor increas
156 lakeeffect : Just thought I'd look to see what the United departure schedule for CLE looks like the Monday following the dehub in June (I didn't include any Silver
157 MasseyBrown : F9 has added six and a half A320/319's on an average day for the summer, which is about 1,060 seats a day. DL has added about 420 seats (6 RJs plus a
158 fun2fly : I agree. An if you factor in those carriers vs. their capacity 2 years ago, it's even more impressive. It appears others can make $ at CLE where UA c
159 Post contains images mbm3 : AA did not have a choice about those cuts, I believe they had to divest certain routes as part of the merger consideration. I am quite simply floored
160 Post contains links and images MasseyBrown : In an article about DEN spending wildly on a way-over-budget airport hotel, the author noted, "Airline analysts recently warned that Frontier Airlines
161 FlyPNS1 : That's because the others aren't running a hub at CLE.
162 PITrules : Lets say that does indeed happen (I don't think it will)... then that would be twice an airline moved a hub from DEN to CLE... a city which has now l
163 mariner : Be a bit wary of that concept, it is one of the analyst (and a.net) chestnuts about Frontier - which has just added four routes at DEN. mariner
164 Post contains images point2point : I found this article soon after it was published about 20 days ago. Very informative and would call it some good journalism for a change, assuming al
165 MasseyBrown : We started talking seriously in this thread about Frontier taking a bigger interest in CLE last January, before UA pulled the plug. Never was it sugge
166 mariner : Absolutely, it does. It may even answer the question that we've been asking about Frontier since I first became interested in the airline (on Yahoo F
167 fun2fly : F9 has a good western hub that needs a good eastern hub. Why not CLE? It's well located, not delay prone, hungry for a replacement for UA, no real com
168 MasseyBrown : AirWest in Columbus, huh? They were about 10-15 years ahead of the O&D market there, I think. 50 flights to major cities at their peak. In the 90
169 Frontier14 : Not sure the "new F9" with Indigo at the helm will be looking at developing a new hub(s) per se. Indigo's other investments in Wizz, Tigerair, and Vo
170 joeman : Some hub it e, huh? Regardless of the extent to which F9 may or may not continue to grow in CLE, doesn't the story line sound familiar? UA cuts CLE o
171 mariner : The same is true here. I doubt that CLE - or anywhere - would ever be the size of DEN, as neither TTN nor ILG will be, at least in my lifetime. But T
172 MasseyBrown : There's a post on an aviation photography board (a.net doesn't like the name mentioned) that references the CLE development director by name saying F9
173 ncflyer : Ok now it's time to dream. There has to be tons of not so old 50 seat jets for sale, ultra cheap, the market must be flooded with them. Why couldn't f
174 FlyPNS1 : Even if the RJ's were free, it's unlikely that F9 (or anyone else) could make that much money off of them given fuel prices.
175 mariner : Aint that the truth. Back in 2011, Republic did a fleet review - what each aircraft in the then Frontier was costing at Frontier's then average fares
176 Post contains images N766UA : We just got rid of an RJ-centric airline. They're awful little jets with no redeeming passenger quality... if you're gunna dream, maybe dream of some
177 ncflyer : But bigger planes just won't cover the likes of ROC, BUF, RIC, MKE, ALB, BDL, etc, etc.
178 N766UA : Which is exactly why nobody would fly there. Cleveland is not *entitled* to non-stops to those kinds of cities. CLE was very lucky to have Continenta
179 N766UA : Cleveland seriously needs to get out of a hub mindset. 99% of you never even flew to 90% of the destinations served by UAL. The loss of the hub is a g
180 lakeeffect : A lot of those thin/relatively close markets are gone for good, those were mostly hub feed anyway. But hub or no hub, there are several markets from C
181 MasseyBrown : DL's latest schedule shows a CR9 and 2 CR7's to MSP, a CR9 and a CR7 to DTW - all upgrades from CRJ's - being added for the summer.
182 steeler83 : That is a good point. I remember how disgruntled I was when US announced their closure of PIT. Sure, there are non-stops that are currently no longer
183 MasseyBrown : For fun, I counted seats on the first three CLE-SEA flights based (inaccurately, I know) on seat availability at flyfrontier.com. Sunday Jun 15, 80 se
184 lakeeffect : Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen any ERJs still in Continental Express livery at CLE? At the end of last year I spotted a couple that had yet to
185 N766UA : Caught one about 3 weeks ago when I flew out of D.
186 lakeeffect : Good question. I'd say that for the time being it will be a de facto focus city based solely on the number of daily flights and destinations served.
187 Post contains links YNGguins : FWIW... This was posted in a separate thread 3 weeks back but no point in bringing it back from the dead because in some ways this thread encompasses
188 MasseyBrown : Good for Youngstown. I hope you get the flights and if UA backs away, try again with Spirit. If Spirit likes Latrobe, they'll love YNG.
189 Post contains links mariner : CAPA has an interesting - and eventually quite positive - article about Frontier at CLE: http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...sting-test-for-ulcc-re
190 joeman : Yes, good for YNG. Since the YNG metro area of 550k+ is conveniently not considered part of the CLE Combined Statistical Area (population) and only b
191 steeler83 : That is likely due to the fact that the vast majority of UA's CLE traffic was mostly express flying, while the 80-some daily flight ops at WN's BNA a
192 Post contains links swacle : Looks like D will get shut down: http://fox8.com/2014/04/07/hopkins-r...o-united-concourse-consolidations/
193 atlaaron : I was not aware until today that United must still pay on the lease for D until 2027.
194 MasseyBrown : UA owes rent on other facilities as well. It's going to be a loooong goodbye. The city would be smart to shutter D totally and save on overhead, whil
195 N766UA : "at the end, United will have 20% more departures out of Hopkins than the next largest non-hub airport" The hell does that mean? SWA doesn't have "hub
196 N766UA : Can other airlines utilize D? With all the work that's been done there, it seems like it'd have less impact on business to move people from A or B to
197 ncflyer : So if UA has 70 CLE departures, then they have 14 more. Whoop-dee-doo!!! And 20% more departures doesn't mean 20% more seats. I just hope the airport
198 lakeeffect : I read that like this: Take all the airports that United flies to and rank them by daily UA departures. The top of the list will be the hubs. Right b
199 steeler83 : If they're talking about PIT and only legacy airlines, then I think that sounds about right. AA's presence will consist of roughly 56 daily flights.
200 ncflyer : Steeler, to me the way it reads is very clear, they are talking about UA airports only, not all non-hub airports. PIT isn't relevant, well I guess it
201 Post contains images point2point : Really.... whoop-ti-do, eh? I guess this best explains it.... and this is only in regards to UA stations. So okay, if CLE is going to have about 80 d
202 ncflyer : Yes, whoop-de-do!!! They've already cut 2 destinations there's a rock solid commitment. And departures don't equal seats . You raise 2 great examples,
203 joeman : I immediately interpreted it as UA only hubs/ops. When it comes to everlasting UA double talk, the latest being remaining departures, regardless of wh
204 MasseyBrown : United has exclusive rights (as long as they pay the rent) to D and all of C except for the six gates that used to be Northwest's. Those six gates ca
205 MasseyBrown : Silver, which is being held in place in CLE for the time being, now has given 90 day notice to the DoT to shut down their Atlanta EAS routes as well.
206 lakeeffect : Over in the OAG thread, it looks like UA is cutting CLE-MCO from 2x daily to 1x daily in September. This is probably a combination of slower fall seas
207 MasseyBrown : I wouldn't expect much from WN at CLE. They're too busy beefing up their don't-call-them-hubs to chase p2p routes. August is a common time for winter
208 YNGguins : What rumor?
209 MasseyBrown : A well-placed city official was quoted on another board saying that Frontier would add more flights and that a new low-cost airline was planning to e
210 greenair727 : ^could it be VX? They're relatively new. (and preferable to Spirit!).
211 Frontier14 : Or could it be Peoples Express..................? Frontier 14
212 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Technically, I don't believe People Express is an airline yet. CLE, however, is in no position to say no to anybody. The unnamed low cost candidate c
213 PITrules : New to the industry, or new to CLE? Depends on how you interpret the statement. If its the latter, I think JetBlue makes the most sense.
214 YNGguins : I do know CLE, CAK, and YNG were all in the running for Spirit. Haven't heard much in two months, but when I do come May, I'll be sure to post.
215 MasseyBrown : My guess is JetBlue will wait to see how successful somebody else is going up against UA in CLE. Will UA walk away from a contested market or not? It
216 ncflyer : But Massey, if Jet Blue is willing to take on DL in DTW (a much stronger hub and airline) why not Cleveland? It's really something how many seats UA h
217 N766UA : I agree. Jetblue has nothing left to gather from UAL or anyone else. If they want to serve Cleveland, they will. The idea that they're lying in wait,
218 cle757 : It's sad but UA, doesn't care about CLE or it's employees!
219 MasseyBrown : DTW is a significantly bigger market (646 vs 267 pax/day) even if you consider CLE numbers artificially depressed by CAK leakage. Second, B6 is alrea
220 Post contains links MasseyBrown : CLE is putting $20 million into a cosmetic upgrade to the east end of the ticketing level - a three-year project that won't be finished until 2017. Yo
221 cle757 : Unless Frontier or Jetblue has some really big plans I say it's a waste of money.
222 MasseyBrown : Maybe they do have some plans, in which case the airport could have made a smarter case for the project without giving away any competitive secrets.
223 N766UA : Personally I think the renovation is much needed and welcome. We can't afford new buildings, especially now, and the current check-in/bag claim area i
224 Post contains images steeler83 : You guys seem to think $20 million is a waste for upgrading the existing facility. I beg to differ. If you want to see huge wastes of money, travel do
225 atlaaron : $20 million really isn't that much money to make a huge visual difference. CLE needs the upgrade and they probably hope it is one more reason for trav
226 ncflyer : what they really need to do is spend money on some modern, decent sized bathrooms. The bathrooms, even in the soon to be mothballed D, have low ceilin
227 MasseyBrown : UA is already solving that one.
228 MasseyBrown : Airport long-term debt at the end of 2012: PIT - $386 million CLE - $856 million. At least PIT has a modern, expansive airport for their trouble. For
229 jetpixx : In that artist rendering, is that a B6 A320 climbing out? Wishful thinking? lol
230 steeler83 : Woah! When did CLE amount to roughly $1 billion in debt? Did they recently spend upwards of a billion GW's on a new terminal? From what I recall from
231 MasseyBrown : Frontier Airlines has revised their route map to include CLE-CVG and CLE-PIT routes. As far as I know these routes are only stubs on one-stop Cancun a
232 fun2fly : Sure makes you think that paying down debt is the way to go. Two Options: 1) Close & Sell Burke: The proceeds from selling Burke would pay all th
233 MasseyBrown : Most of it came from incremental terminal expansion in the 80s and 90s for CO. The debt peaked around $950 million in the late 90's. Every time they'
234 MasseyBrown : During the quarterly conference call on 4/29, Ben Baldanza of Spirit Airlines said they plan to add "another dot or two" to their route map during 201
235 N766UA : I feel like Spirit would be bad for CLE. They'd get pax, certainly, but that's the problem. Any route they fly or offer connections through takes away
236 MasseyBrown : I understand this point of view and doubt I would fly them myself, but they are planning a 17-18% compound growth rate this year and next (20 new air
237 Highflier92660 : I realize this thread is to be used for objective and succinct posts with regard to Cleveland Hopkins' accounting ("the debt peaked around $950 milli
238 Post contains images MasseyBrown : CLE-PHX by AA (US) is interesting news. If Frontier wants to continue flying a few days a week, there is probably enough traffic to support both carri
239 compensateme : Concourse D was designed to handle 737. It was originally constructed to open with 18 gates: 6 for 737 and 12 for turboprops/regional jets but it was
240 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Personally, I think Concourse A is the best of the three remaining. That may change if Frontier fills it with hordes of backpackers. Ricky Smith, the
241 ncflyer : CLE better hope that UA doesn't go bankrupt in the next however many years!! What a train wreck. I like how they say they were losing money in CLE. We
242 MasseyBrown : I don't think that's a real possibility. There may have to be some new leadership within the year (Smisek has become the Sebelius of the airline indu
243 steeler83 : Agreed. They need to get rid of their ERJ and CRJ flying and fly real planes instead of those crappy high-cost tuna cans. Roughly 80 percent of their
244 joeman : From a consumer point of view, after flying F9 CLE-TTN-CLE, seeing another F9 plane at the CLE gate area upon return, and noting the relatively quick
245 lakeeffect : Towards the end, larger regional jets started replacing the 50 seaters. Right now UA is flying the occasional E70 on routes like CLE-IND. As for hub
246 Post contains images MasseyBrown : Do you know something? There's a question about how they would do this. This summer Frontier should have 8 CLE departures on a peak day. To grow much
247 Post contains images lakeeffect : I'd consider going from 10 weekly mainline flights to 50 weekly mainline flights rapid expansion. It appears that F9 had their schedule extension tod
248 mariner : It isn't something they always announce. Generally, they just do it. There was very little publicity about the latest A320 - N223FR - with the flamin
249 fun2fly : I hope TTN gets to daily or 2x daily. It needs that to be competitive. I wanted to take it next month, but no Friday flight. Price was $49. Wow. Is U
250 Post contains links MasseyBrown : Frontier does it again: http://news.flyfrontier.com/press-re...-low-fare-flights-dallas-and-vegas Dallas and Las Vegas are two of Spirit's favorite de
251 lakeeffect : And also of note, PHX returns in November as seasonal. So that will be 3 carriers from CLE to LAS and DFW. When will UA bow out of these point to poin
252 highflier92660 : As a frequent Cleveland bound passenger I could not be more pleased in Frontier's decision to increase the number of destinations. Although there are
253 Post contains images mariner : CLE is defined as a focus city by Frontier. mariner
254 STT757 : Wow, Excellent news for Cleveland. The small regional routes (ALB, BUF, CMH, DAY, ERI, FNT, IND etc..) are leaving and will not be replaced, that's a
255 Post contains images mbm3 : I've got to say, today's announcement about LAS and DFW is quite a surprise given yesterday's IAD announcement. That being said, I applaud their choic
256 MasseyBrown : I think budget-minded vacationers can and will plan their trips around Frontier's schedules; business travelers will be less able to do it. Frontier'
257 fun2fly : Might be a lull in 2H2014, but with new planes F9 and others can help out a lot for 2015. The true tale will be what this all does to CAK.
258 Post contains images mariner : Not to forget that all the Florida destinations gain a frequency by November, with CLE-MCO going to daily. This puts FLL and TPA at 4 x weekly and RS
259 lakeeffect : If F9 gets to about 60 weekly departures at CLE, that would bring roughly a half million enplanements per year or 1 million total passengers. That wou
260 MasseyBrown : Based on announcements, I think 60 per week is already in the plan. Frontier is CLE's new baby, of course, but Frontier, coupled with the bigger plan
261 mbm3 : Amazing indeed! For as much of a CLE "homer" as I tend to be, I would've never guessed this reaction. One wonders if any other carriers will dip thei
262 Post contains images point2point : For quite a while now, even with UA maintaining a 'hub' there at CLE, the CLE O&D picture was usually at some +70%. With O&D numbers like thi
263 Post contains images MasseyBrown : 'Jumping in' isn't Southwest's style. They're more like a boa constrictor, incremental pressure that builds and builds. Maybe there will be a new rou
264 steeler83 : Any chance of transatlantic flights? It's nice that roughly 40% of the UA cuts are covered. That's more than I could say for another dehubbed airport
265 greenair727 : ^It looks like Wizz Air has a substantial amount of service out of London Luton to mainland Europe. As siblings under Indigo, any chance of a CLE-Luto
266 N766UA : LOL what? Why would that happen? And with what, a super-long-range A320?
267 steeler83 : or a 737 NG. Don't some 737NG frames have the range for East Coast-to-Western Europe?
268 N766UA : So we're asking if a Hungarian ultra-low-cost-carrier with zero routes outside Europe would be likely to buy brand new airframes, completely change th
269 MasseyBrown : I have tried, and mostly failed, to find synergy among Indigo Partners various aviation investments. The only possibility that leaped out was cross-le
270 mbm3 : I just heard that they are looking "out of family" for short term leases as well. As an armchair CEO, I've to think they need to add aircraft soon to
271 mariner : There is no present synergy with those other airlines and Frontier. The Frontier Airbus Neo order is rather extraordinary, the key to it being the or
272 MasseyBrown : I meant to address possible synergy, not current relationships. If two Indigo players have excess aircraft at the moment, and another could use some a
273 Post contains images point2point : Okay, I can agree with that...... If CLE were to get any TALT flights, I would expect it to be something like (and most likely) a DE flight to FRA (m
274 jetpixx : I remember when DE used to fly regularly, or at least semi-regularly, to CLE with a DC-8. When I was a kid in the early 1980's, I believe they flew t
275 PITrules : They returned in the summer of 1993 with scheduled charter service from FRA; 1x weekly with a 757. I believe this was the longest 'scheduled' 757 ser
276 MasseyBrown : Something like that is the only way CLE will see TATL service in the near future. Local government and civic organizations have always been reluctant
277 MasseyBrown : Correction: the CLE Port Authority charters the whole ship and then sells cargo space.
278 lakeeffect : The WN schedule extension isn't very favorable towards CLE. It appears the recent CLE-LAS daily addition by Southwest is gone with the schedule extens
279 MasseyBrown : DAL, DCA, parking the last of the 717's without immediate replacement and parking the 735's for good has got WN scrambling and putting what they've go
280 fun2fly : It's weird. We used to have up to 4x daily from UA with several 753's on the route. Prior to that, 2x daily from CO and 1x daily from HP. So, for 10
281 N766UA : WN seems pretty happy to forsake CLE for CAK. 11 flights a day is pretty pathetic, and they've only been shrinking their operations as time goes on. I
282 Frontier14 : How long before we see F9 add CLE-STL to the mix? I think it is inevitable that it will happen. Indigo Partners (F9) does not seem shy to enter a mark
283 Post contains images MasseyBrown : I compared CLE-STL and CLE-MCI using DoT 2013 data.. For STL: CLE traffic by quarter: 117/106/99/114 pax per day. Low fare: $194 by WN one-stop. Mile
284 mbm3 : LAS still remains one of the largest conference and trade show destinations in the US as few other cities have that many beds and that much event spa
285 Post contains links MasseyBrown : But the casinos are losing their shirts,apparently. http://www.reviewjournal.com/busines...ifth-straight-fiscal-year-net-loss
286 fun2fly : CLE Schedule Changes this week: 1x daily YYZ on AC 1x daily LGA on DL WN -1 BNA, Add 1x daily LAS and 1x daily MDW in Oct Overall, 3 more daily flight
287 N766UA : So WN is keeping LAS now?
288 MasseyBrown : If you got this from enilria's listing, I think he posted year-over-year changes for WN, not his usual weekly update. In any case, all goes away in N
289 jetpixx : What are the changes for AC? Do they still run Q200 or Q300s into CLE? Or are they CRJ? Any chance we would ever see a bump up to CRJ, if they still o
290 MasseyBrown : Jazz Q100's; and now with a monopoly they have no incentive to upgrade ever. Fares are outrageous. [Edited 2014-05-27 22:28:26]
291 MasseyBrown : I just noticed that Frontier has bumped FLL, TPA, and RSW up from the initial June schedule of 3 flights per week to 4 per week for October and Novemb
292 lakeeffect : Is there an anticipated stop date to the EAS routes from CLE? It looks like next week there are at least 11 daily departures to the likes of FKL, DUJ,
293 MasseyBrown : The DoT gave Silver a "hold in place" order good for 60 days (July 15th or so?) while they try to find a new carrier for the EAS cities. Silver themse
294 Post contains links lakeeffect : It also looks like UA bumped CLE-MCO back up to 2x daily after the slow fall season. So that would be 3 dailies when you include Frontier. I can see
295 mariner : Any clues as to when that usually starts - December or January? TIA mariner
296 lakeeffect : Not sure. I do know that this year the last Saturday it operated was April 5th. I'm sure the most likely factor in not bringing it back was to not ca
297 mariner : That could be. Or - given Southwest's reaction to Frontier's CLE-LAS - funny - they could still back MCO and even RSW for peak season. mariner
298 jetpixx : Did UA fly CLE-PHF or ORF? Maybe PeoplExpress can come in an fill that void - ha[Edited 2014-05-30 20:40:16]
299 MasseyBrown : CO did to ORF. I believe it was cut in the first pre-merger CLE reduction. It didn't. The flight is now gone. Mistake? Second thought? Whatever ... i
300 jetpixx : Nice, thanks. I live in RDU now, and am from CLE with tons of family there. Glad that DL and F9 each have service on the route. I remember flying Peo
301 chrisjake : Back when UAL had their first hub at CLE they flew DC-8's to/from ORF.
302 Post contains links iowaman : Due to length, here is part six: What's Going On In CLE - Part 6 (by iowaman Jun 1 2014 in Civil Aviation) This thread will be archived for future pos
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