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What's Going On In CLE - Part 5  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 22646 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As part 4 became quite long it was locked for further discussion. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this thread. Part 4 can be found here:

What's Going On In CLE - Part 4 (by iowaman Oct 20 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the forums!

Regards,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
302 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 22607 times:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ctor_say.html#incart_river_default

New entrant discussion this AM on Cleveland.com


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22407 times:

The biggest item of interest I can find in the new Southwest schedule for CLE is the contiunuation of CLE-LAS beyond the summer schedule. The route appears to have become year-round.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22383 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 1):
New entrant discussion this AM on Cleveland.com

Hmm... as a resident of Canton I love CAK and don't want to see WN shift any flights from CAK to CLE (Unlike many of the other posters on this forum). CAK has always pride itself on easy access, relaxed environment, and cheap fares. Now the UA is de-hubbing CLE and if the article is hinting more ULCC service in CLE I don't think things look too great for CAK. I don't see doom and gloom happening for my favorite little airport, but CLE will now provide cheaper fares and with less flights and less passengers a more relaxed environment (still not like CAK, but not as busy as previous years). I could see CAK losing some CLE originating passengers that may have made the drive down to CAK before if Frontier or Spirit start adding more sun destinations from CLE. That being said the folks at CAK run a pretty tight ship so I hope they are planning ahead accordingly.

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 22273 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 2):

The biggest item of interest I can find in the new Southwest schedule for CLE is the contiunuation of CLE-LAS beyond the summer schedule. The route appears to have become year-round.

Interesting. So instead of starting CLE-PHX this fall, they are just going to keep the CLE-LAS going (head to head with UA) all year. I suppose they can easily shuttle PHX bound passengers through this LAS flight.

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 3):
Hmm... as a resident of Canton I love CAK and don't want to see WN shift any flights from CAK to CLE (Unlike many of the other posters on this forum). CAK has always pride itself on easy access, relaxed environment, and cheap fares. Now the UA is de-hubbing CLE and if the article is hinting more ULCC service in CLE I don't think things look too great for CAK. I don't see doom and gloom happening for my favorite little airport, but CLE will now provide cheaper fares and with less flights and less passengers a more relaxed environment (still not like CAK, but not as busy as previous years). I could see CAK losing some CLE originating passengers that may have made the drive down to CAK before if Frontier or Spirit start adding more sun destinations from CLE. That being said the folks at CAK run a pretty tight ship so I hope they are planning ahead accordingly.

I don't think doom and gloom is on the horizon for CAK. CAK has branded itself as the low cost airport of NE Ohio, but I do think they'll end up losing a lot of passengers who previously drove down from Lorain/Cuyahoga/Lake Counties. We all know that CAK's explosive growth over the past decade came from discount leisure travelers looking for bargain flights. CAK will probably start to see their passenger levels return to early 2000s levels over the next few years if CLE prices drop a bit.

For example, Frontier announced year round service from CLE to MCO. That will likely siphon off those families bound to Orlando on cheap AirTran CAK flights from the Cleveland area. If you notice on today's WN announcement, CAK-MCO drops from twice daily to once daily this fall. Not sure if that's a seasonal adjustment, however I'm pretty sure CAK-MCO has been twice daily year round. Perhaps WN is factoring in lighter projected loads at CAK. WN also reduced CAK-BOS to 1x daily, this had also been 2x daily for quite some time.

CAK has fed off price conscious consumers and with WN being their major carrier now, folks in NE Ohio searching on internet sites like kayak will no longer see those fares show up when they select "show nearby airports". With once a year travelers not being very savvy or familiar with southwest, this could hurt CAK and help CLE. I have noticed that CAK has started an advertising campaign telling people that they can only find fares on southwest.com.

With that said, if F9 comes into CLE and adds a flight to TPA and FLL this fall, it will really hurt CAK. But who's to say that Spirit doesn't open up shop in CAK and bring fares lower than CLE?

CAK runs a pretty good airport and their branding/marketing are excellent. However, every time I've flown from CAK, it's been on Delta and the old terminal where the legacy carriers operate is anything but pleasant, comfortable, and relaxed.

In the end, it's sad that our two airports have to fight for the same passengers. Inevitably growth at CLE comes from CAK and vice versa. Hopefully CLE and CAK can both find their own niche and make it work. But with CAK now riding almost solely on WN, they are in the same boat as CLE was last year riding solely on UA.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 22216 times:

As a Clevelander I can tell you I will stop driving down to CAK the day that CLE has competitive airfares, hate to say it because I do find CAK very pleasant. I'm sure the folks at CAK are sweating some bullets big time. UA kept fares artificially high at CLE and if that disappears then what reason do Cuyahoga county residents have to make the drive down south.

It is VERY interesting to me that WN couldn't make MDW-CAK flights work, and I'd suggest the reason is that unlike LGA or BOS, CLE already had low fares to MDW. CAK didn't add anything to the equation beyond what Clevelanders get out of CLE. If JetBlue comes to CLE that would really be a dagger to CAK.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22126 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 4):
I don't think doom and gloom is on the horizon for CAK.

I don't either. Typically low-fare carriers expand the total market; it's not zero-sum. CAK may lose some travelers to new low-fare flights at CLE, but not enough to cripple service.

[Edited 2014-03-04 00:17:55]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 22067 times:

Somewhere in the archives approximately the time that CO announced their CDG service and CLE expansion, I wrote a piece on a.net that NEOhio should close CAK and all flights should be transferred to CLE. The message was we don't have enough to support a full hub (20mm pax or so) but we could pool our resources to make CLE work and that we needed to take advantage of CO's problem with EWR congestion and their willingness to expand here. That would have added .5-.7mm pax to CLE at the time, lowered fees, etc. I got blasted for this nutty post. This was pre Skybus and pre CVG demise. The point was strengthen one airport for the region, not have two more vulnerable ones.

Now, post UA hub, would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?


User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22015 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 7):
Now, post UA hub, would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?

I think the biggest thing with your suggestion is how unlikely it would ever be to happen. Why would Summit and Stark County ever agree to shut down CAK so that CLE could get a little boost in passengers? The economic gains from CAK are way more than I'm guessing you realize. For people and businesses (Yes there are businesses in Canton and Akron believe it or not) who live in Canton, Youngstown, Akron etc. you would take away our preferred airport to save an overpriced hub. If UA was just going to keep airfares artificially high like they did I don't think it would have changed anything, NE Ohio would have just been screwed even more when UA shut down the hub. On my hop up to Detroit last month I sat next to a lady who drove down from Erie, PA because of the price and convenience of CAK (her words).

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 4):
CAK runs a pretty good airport and their branding/marketing are excellent. However, every time I've flown from CAK, it's been on Delta and the old terminal where the legacy carriers operate is anything but pleasant, comfortable, and relaxed.

Yep, I do agree with this point! On the next chat with the president I want to ask if the gate expansion of the new wing is still on track. I fly Delta out of CAK almost exclusively (having just moved up here permanently from ATL I have all Delta sky miles, etc) and I agree when Delta is trying to load 2 flights and US Airways is trying to load 2 flights all at the same time (Monday mornings are the worst) the old small terminal is way overcrowded. Especially since Delta is flying all mainline to ATL from CAK now! (They still may have a few Rj flights but most of what I see is Mad Dog's) That right there shows how many passengers I think they have managed to grab. I hope that CAK will expand the new gates and move Delta flights up to those gates, or at least the Atlanta MD88 flight.

-ATLFLyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2008 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22003 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 5):
It is VERY interesting to me that WN couldn't make MDW-CAK flights work,

They were running 2x flights up against 5x CLE-MDW and I think there are something like 16x CLE-ORD. It doesn't make sense to run those flights to MDW. WN is better off running the 2x DEN this summer they are. I would like to see another flight to something like STL or BNA from them out of CAK, but they obviously have other fish to fry right now.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21952 times:

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 7):
would the closure of CAK (pre investment) and moving the investment in the CAK terminals and runway, along with the CAK pax to CLE have made a difference in the current CLE de-hubbed situation?

Total 2013 traffic for CAK was 1.7 million pax compared to CLE's 9.1 million. Obviously adding CAK traffic wouldn't have hurt, but, since CLE O&D rose very nicely over the past two years, I'm starting to think the pilot shortage at the regionals had more to do with it than I first imagined.

While the hub-closure has long in everybody's mind, the final decision came after Christmas. The pressure on UA from Wall Street was to improve operating margins; the easy way to do that was to reduce regional flying. I'm guessing things came to a head when (according to a recent report) ExpressJet told UA they didn't have enough pilots to operate their future schedules. UA needed to cut fast. A collateral benefit would be the chance to dump more 50-seaters. Cutting CLE represented a pretty tidy surgical excision. It made sense for UA, sucked for CLE.

But it's done, the axe has fallen; the suspense is over. Maybe Smisek will tell the *whole* story in his book, assuming he writes one. "From First to Worst" is so tempting a title suggestion.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21915 times:

Any thoughts on what a 2014 or 2015 passenger count total would look like at CLE?

Interestingly, I picked a few random dates this summer after the official hub closure and noticed that flights are still connecting through CLE on United. Several dates have ALB-LAX and ALB-SFO via CLE as the cheapest option. Likewise BOS-STL routings are cheapest through CLE. Any thoughts or ideas on how many PAX a de-hubbed or focus city like CLE might still connect?

[Edited 2014-03-04 09:39:11]

User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21895 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
Maybe Smisek will tell the *whole* story in his book, assuming he writes one. "From First to Worst" is so tempting a title suggestion.

Excellent title!!!!

Although I do believe there are too many fortress hubs, which CLE wasn't, and attention way too much attention to them by legacy carriers, the fact that CLE was CO's most profitable hub at one point, (before putting all their eggs into the basket for IAH and EWR at CLE expense) is fact a lot of a.netters can probably not fathom given their brainwashed measurements of what it takes to operate a successful hub.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21812 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 11):
Any thoughts on what a 2014 or 2015 passenger count total would look like at CLE?

UA is pulling about 200 flights a day (in + out) on the average. So 200 x 50seats x 77% load factor is 7700 pax a day reduction or about 2.8 million annualized. Since the announcement, DL has added 560 seats and Frontier 600 seats daily; so using the same calculation that adds back about 890 pax/day or 325 thousand annualized.

Note: The loss of non-stop service in a market means the market absolutely shrinks, it does not mean that all the traffic goes to connecting flights.

So with that said, and acknowledging some double counting involved, and further assuming nothing else changes from what we know today, I'd suggest a SWAG might be 9.1 minus 2.8 plus .325 giving CLE a 2014 pax count of 6.625 million of which about 5 million will be O&D.

For comparison purposes, PIT, with no hub, was about 8 million for 2013 and CVG, with what DL still calls a hub, was about 6 million.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21697 times:

Good math Massey. It may take a while, but there is no reason whatsoever that CLE's passenger count shouldn't be 100% identical to PIT. Both markets are about the same size, both are drivable to about the same number of major markets-- if anything PIT is more drivable to DC and NY (which competes with flying), and PIT doesn't really have any zany destinations that would be a stretch for CLE, save CDG.

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21618 times:

Correction: my SWAG of 6.625 million CLE pax for 2014 should be an annualized number, not the actual count for the year, which will reflect 5 months of higher UA passenger counts


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21584 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown:
Note: The loss of non-stop service in a market means the market absolutely shrinks, it does not mean that all the traffic goes to connecting flights.

Is this because, as a result of no direct flights between two cities, some trips are not taken at all that otherwise would be? If so, what percentage of such trips are lost? And are the trips lost to trips being taken by other modes or foregone altogether?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 21558 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 16):
Is this because, as a result of no direct flights between two cities, some trips are not taken at all that otherwise would be? ... And are the trips lost to trips being taken by other modes or foregone altogether?

Yes. Some lost traffic might also use other means of travel, but some people will just stay home.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 16):
If so, what percentage of such trips are lost?

That number is probably available but I don't know it. It is an accepted Dept of Transportation assumption that adding non-stop service will increase total traffic by at least 20%. So a decrease of 20% might be a reasonable number if non-stop service is lost.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 21339 times:

Effective June 16th, Air Canada (Jazz) will add a fourth CLE-YYZ trip, all Dash-8-100s.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 21118 times:

Not commercial, but:

FAA investigates after plane goes off Burke runway--this past Thursday night. Airport didn't close.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/2014/03/06/plane-off-runway/6145307/


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 20718 times:

Awesome Frontier news.  

I hope the city supports them. It's a nice mix of destinations. F9 has to start slowly, i.e. less-than-daily frequencies, because of fleet and financial limitations, but they'll grow if they get support.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11656973.htm

[Edited 2014-03-11 08:51:37]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 20684 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 20):
Awesome Frontier news.

Didn't see them picking up this many locations, big deal once daily. Great CLE news. 12 destinations!


User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 20642 times:

I would expect United to only fly to the main hubs in a year or two!


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineoflanigan From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 20593 times:

Will they take gates down on A or is this a play to get them into the B Concourse? New air service, you would hope the City would open the doors wide for Frontier.

So much for Southwest jumping at the chance to fill a void. This is what people in PIT thought would happen when US Airways left and Republic owned Frontier. Good for Cleveland.


User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20571 times:

I just saw this on the CLE Instagram, very exited for CLE! I was surprised by the ATL flight, this now provides a lot of options to ATL from NE Ohio. I wonder if UA is going to stay on the route, they fly by far the smallest equipment or if we will see it dropped eventually.

I'm also kinda excited about what this could mean for WN and CAK. I'm hoping WN won't want to fight Frontier too much and CLE and will decide to keep their sizable operations in CAK where they won't face ULCC competition.   Here's to hoping! Haha

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20746 times:

Quoting oflanigan (Reply 23):
So much for Southwest jumping at the chance to fill a void. This is what people in PIT thought would happen when US Airways left and Republic owned Frontier. Good for Cleveland.

I think Frontier finds CLE more immediately useful than any other airline does at the moment. They are small and struggling with one hub (DEN) in which they rank third, despite great hometown affection for them. CLE, with meaningful O&D and immediately available airport space seems like a natural fit for operational system-balancing reasons and a quick shot of profitable revenue.

There were rumblings of WN and B6 having thoughts about selective additions to CLE; so F9 probably felt they had to move quickly; but we should look for gradual growth, since they currently have no planes on order and don't want to prune DEN too heavily.

With the right response from CLE flyers, however, F9 could dip into the used A320 market for more lift. We'll see.

The downside to a big F9 operation would be no first class and no possibility of TATL.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20745 times:

Look at the new F9 flights from CLE, now look at WN's destination list from CAK. With F9's competitive pricing, this should stop the bleed of CLE area passengers driving down to CAK to catch a cheap tourist flight.

User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 20846 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
The downside to a big F9 operation would be no first class and no possibility of TATL.

I don't really think there is much of a possibility for a TATL flight from CLE right now anyways, sadly.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 26):
Look at the new F9 flights from CLE, now look at WN's destination list from CAK. With F9's competitive pricing, this should stop the bleed of CLE area passengers driving down to CAK to catch a cheap tourist flight.

Yep, as long as CLE and Frontier can do a good job advertising the service and letting people know it's out there.

I would love if WN would pull out of CLE and shift all their service to CAK, but I know that is a very slim chance. Then again anything could happen!     

On a side note I'm actually flying on Southwest for the first time this week CAK-ATL-CAK, usually I fly DL. I'm excited!

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 28, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 20759 times:

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 27):
I don't really think there is much of a possibility for a TATL flight from CLE right now anyways, sadly.

We are always optimistic, atlflyer.  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 29, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 20728 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
There were rumblings of WN and B6 having thoughts about selective additions to CLE; so F9 probably felt they had to move quickly; but we should look for gradual growth, since they currently have no planes on order and don't want to prune DEN too heavily.

Actually, Frontier has 80 aircraft on order - 60 x A32Neo and 20 x A319Neo (although the balance of that may change in favour of the A320Neo) - with delivery due to start at the end of next year.

Everything they are doing is with that in mind.

They also have another A320 coming into the fleet next month (used, from Star Flyer, Japan), and I believe a couple more (used) at some point after summer.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
With the right response from CLE flyers, however, F9 could dip into the used A320 market for more lift. We'll see.

The point I made in the Frontier thread is that CLE-MCO already jumps from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly when service starts.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20541 times:

This is exactly why CLE will be better off without a hub, in spite of the ridiculous advertising campaign by the Cleveland Growth Association "UNITED FOR THE HUB". We're losing a crappy airline and we're gaining one that prices to grow the market, not to squash it. Cleveland flyers will no longer have to pay an airfare tax to keep the UA ERJ's flying from CLE to Madison, Richmond, GSP, etc. We will no longer have to drive to DTW or PIT for decent fares . For frontier to be adding these destinations so quickly--- absolutely fabulous. I know it's only a few flights but it's dipping the toe in the water--- IMMEDIATELY.

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 20471 times:

Although the CLE-TTN schedule increases from 2x to 4-5x weekly, it loses the Sunday service. With these new CLE additions and both CLE and TTN as focuses, I hope CLE-TTN is made daily or atleast 6x weekly with Sunday kept in the Summer and after.

User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20333 times:

It's interesting that Frontier will have 12 destinations and UA 20. Once Frontier gets a/c to go daily, seems plausible that they could challenge UA in 2-3 years for the # of destinations.

The two markets I still see a great opportunity on are LAX via AA/DL/WN direct service as it seems there is room with UA's cuts and SLC via DL for western connections.


User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20331 times:

I still think DL has more announcements for CLE. I was just browsing the summer schedules on the Delta website and noticed that the last flight of the night from DTW to CLE is a CR900. Yet, I don't see that aircraft returning to DTW the next day. A quick glance doesn't show any aircraft of that type heading to MSP or LGA either. Am I just overlooking something or can we expect new destinations/upgauging from DL in CLE soon?

User currently offlineatlflyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 20293 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 33):
Am I just overlooking something or can we expect new destinations/upgauging from DL in CLE soon?

Could that be for one of their new routes to IND, RDU, or BDL? I believe I read that at least one of those will be a CRJ-900 flight and both Endeavor Air and Express Jet operate the type.

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 20224 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 33):
Am I just overlooking something or can we expect new destinations/upgauging from DL in CLE soon?

There's a CR7 that apparently sits all day in CLE also; that made me wonder about another flight or two. A DL-knowledgable poster has cautioned, however, that equipment type is pretty fluid in DL's schedules until 60 days or so prior to actual flying. We'll see.

If DL has more tricks up its sleeve, there are some 100+ pax per day markets empty or soon to be. DL could choose from MCI, MSY, AUS, SAT, PVD, SAN, PDX, and SLC (almost). (These markets could be equally appealing to F9.)

I can imagine why a DTW-protective DL would not want CLE becoming an F9 hotbed, but what are they willing to do about it?

Gotta say this speculation is more interesting than wondering if UA would add or subtract a couple of E-135's each season.  

[Edited 2014-03-12 08:00:59]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinembm3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 844 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20163 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I remain ever so optimistic for B6 to announce BOS and FLL and curious as to whether VX might consider DAL, SFO & LGA.


Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 20127 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 35):
There's a CR7 that apparently sits all day in CLE also; that made me wonder about another flight or two. A DL-knowledgable poster has cautioned, however, that equipment type is pretty fluid in DL's schedules until 60 days or so prior to actual flying. We'll see.

If DL has more tricks up its sleeve, there are some 100+ pax per day markets empty or soon to be. DL could choose from MCI, MSY, AUS, SAT, PVD, SAN, PDX, and SLC (almost). (These markets could be equally appealing to F9.)

I can imagine why a DTW-protective DL would not want CLE becoming an F9 hotbed, but what are they willing to do about it?

Gotta say this speculation is more interesting than wondering if UA would add or subtract a couple of E-135's each season.  

Good to know.

I'd say if DL really wanted to grab some of the CLE market, they'd have at least a 1x daily 717 to MSP and LGA.

With F9's willingness to try major markets 3-4x weekly from CLE, I also agree any of the markets you've listed are fair game for them to snatch up over the next year. With the right pricing, F9 could easily fill those planes with passengers coming from the TOL, PIT, ERI, or even CMH areas, especially for flights to the west coast. There is no non-stop year round service to Seattle from CLE, PIT, or CMH. But with AS/DL's aggressive SEA additions, that may change. I could also see a seasonal 3x weekly to PDX do well from CLE (UA had it daily last summer).

I think it will be interesting to see UA's response to F9's Florida routes. The Florida routes are pretty much the only mainline flights that will be left from UA that don't go to another hub (plus LAS). As for UA's other non hub routes from CLE, most are ripe for the picking from another carrier.

STL could easily go to WN
LAS becomes all WN
BWI already has enough frequency on WN
BOS could easily go to DL/WN/B6
DFW drops and AA maintains their frequency as is
DCA and LGA - I'd say these would be the last non-hub destinations UA would want to drop
MKE and ALB - not sure if anyone would pick these up

It's quite possible that by the time WN decides to do anything more with CLE, F9 already has a respectable operation going. It seems like WN is trying to focus on connecting key business markets now, I'm not sure how well their CAK-RSW/MCO/TPA flights will fit that model. And with F9 now offering those flights from CLE, what kinds of loads will WN have in CAK?


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 20138 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
Quoting ncflyer (Reply 30):
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 31):
Quoting fun2fly (Reply 32):
Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 33):
Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 34):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 35):
Quoting mbm3 (Reply 36):
Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 37):

IIRC, CLE pax are some 72% O&D, so the premium pax are there. And now that UA has finally made its decision and gotten off the can here, it seems CLE (probably more than any other of the de-hubbed airports of PIT, STL, MKE, etc.) has received a lot of early attention, and is probably going to actually grow in pax numbers now that some competition is in the market and fares will be lower.

It is still early, but these indications are that CLE is probably going to be better off Not being a UA Hub......

And with this, I would think that DL is probably now leaning very strongly to not dehubbing CVG, no matter what amount of flights or destinations that they have there......

 


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 39, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 20141 times:
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Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 37):
I think it will be interesting to see UA's response to F9's Florida routes.

These days, United and Frontier seem to coexist quite well on any number of routes out of DEN - SBA, FAT, EUG, BZN, MOT, BIS, FAR, MSN, ANC, FAI - the are more.

The theory is that low fares stimulate the market - a rising tee lifts all boats - and that surely happened at, say, MSN.

It will be interesting to see what happens when Southwest restarts seasonal CLE-MCO, but these days, Frontier generally has lower fares than Southwest.

I'm really surprised that Frontier has CLE-PHX on its own-some, at least for now, and I also wonder if Frontier will be inclined to start CLE-LAS.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 40, posted (7 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19924 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 39):
It will be interesting to see what happens when Southwest restarts seasonal CLE-MCO, but these days, Frontier generally has lower fares than Southwest.

This winter WN is flying CLE-MCO and CLE-RSW once a week on Saturdays. I doubt they care about CLE-Florida on a daily basis and with F9 in the mix I wouldn't bet on them returning next winter. WN's interest in CLE peaked in the late 90's.

OTOH, WN has made CLE-LAS daily year round in reaction to UA's reduction of service from three or four dailies to one. Would they stay on that route if faced with a low-fare carrier competing? Probably not. I think they are trying to bulk up their hubs in preparation for intercontinental flying in a few years.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 41, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19631 times:

Mideast Jet N777AS (B772) is due in from SNN around 3:30PM today. Another medical mission.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinen797mx From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 19595 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 41):
Mideast Jet N777AS (B772) is due in from SNN around 3:30PM today. Another medical mission.

Any idea when it will leave? I can't get up there right now.



Clear skies and strong tail winds.
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 43, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19574 times:

It's scheduled to depart for JFK at 1924 this evening.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 19454 times:

Quoting atlflyer323 (Reply 27):
I would love if WN would pull out of CLE and shift all their service to CAK, but I know that is a very slim chance. Then again anything could happen!

I wouldn't say it's so slim. The precedent is just on the other side of the state, where WN chose to keep FL's routes in DAY but not move to CVG.

The latest release has some increases at CLE, but WN will be needing aircraft to fund DAL, DCA, LGA and stations like HOU and other strategic stations for them like BNA and other hubs. I think CLE falls in the category of markets like PIT and PHL to WN, over the first category.

I'd bet on the CLE-MDW route also that WN is pushing a lot of connecting pax, probably way too high than what it ideally wants for a route, not be different than past deleted routes LGA/EWR-BWI, MDW-IND, etc. even though CLE-MDW is longer. From my experiences in Chicago, many of the frequent fliers on business would choose UA esp. on frequency driven routes so I'm not certain WN is leading for the desired pax on CHI-Cleveland.

It could easily move CLE-BWI to CAK, LAS and BNA over, maybe add HOU, and maybe have a light MDW schedule (2-3x) from CAK again. If this were to happen, that is a move from CLE to CAK, F9 would launch CLE-BNA, LAS and BWI but no more than 1x daily and AA and UA would charge a premium for pax to fly CLE to Chicago, but UA would probably end it's services out of CAK, and WN would enjoy more control over at CAK. I think DL will be bullish though and not give over ATL to WN so WN will still be competing against DL on that route.

[Edited 2014-03-15 18:18:39]

User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19391 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 44):
I think DL will be bullish though and not give over ATL to WN so WN will still be competing against DL on that route.

That's the route I fly the most, and the competition between DL and WN/FL over the years has been great for the traveler! DL has even upped their flights to MD88's over CRJ7's/9's. I've loved it!

That being said DL really needs to fix their CAK-DTW flight on Endeavor Air. Every time I've flown the route it's been delayed, I missed to my connection in DTW to Japan last time because of it. When I flew out of CAK on Thursday the 12 something flight was delayed til after 2pm.

-ATLFlyer323



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 46, posted (7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 19358 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 44):
I wouldn't say it's so slim. The precedent is just on the other side of the state, where WN chose to keep FL's routes in DAY but not move to CVG.

I wouldn't consider that precedent because neither WN nor FL served CVG.



FLYi
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 19290 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 46):
I wouldn't consider that precedent because neither WN nor FL served CVG.

WN could have moved the route BWI-DAY route to BWI-CVG. But it instead chose to just convert the DAY station to a WN station and make Baltimoreans have to use DAY for Cincinnati. It's website even associates DAY as Cincinnati area airports. With DAL, HOU, DCA and LGA, and international, it might not be rushing to do anything at CVG.


User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 19308 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 46):
I wouldn't consider that precedent because neither WN nor FL served CVG.

I would agree. WN is CLE's second largest carrier with a little over 900k PAX per year. Last year WN carried 0 PAX from CVG. There is no precedent or comparison.

Even combining FL and WN PAX at CAK right now you get a little over 900k PAX per year. So both airports are about the same. If you move too many flights around quickly, you run the risk of losing passengers who won't switch airports or find the added drive time isn't worth such a short flight.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 44):
I'd bet on the CLE-MDW route also that WN is pushing a lot of connecting pax, probably way too high than what it ideally wants for a route, not be different than past deleted routes LGA/EWR-BWI, MDW-IND, etc. even though CLE-MDW is longer. From my experiences in Chicago, many of the frequent fliers on business would choose UA esp. on frequency driven routes so I'm not certain WN is leading for the desired pax on CHI-Cleveland.

It could easily move CLE-BWI to CAK, LAS and BNA over, maybe add HOU, and maybe have a light MDW schedule (2-3x) from CAK again. If this were to happen, that is a move from CLE to CAK, F9 would launch CLE-BNA, LAS and BWI but no more than 1x daily and AA and UA would charge a premium for pax to fly CLE to Chicago, but UA would probably end it's services out of CAK, and WN would enjoy more control over at CAK. I think DL will be bullish though and not give over ATL to WN so WN will still be competing against DL on that route.

With Chicago being the number one O&D market from CLE, why would WN move those flights to CAK, a route they tried last year that didn't work? Likewise for BWI, WN pretty much has 90%+ of the seats on the CLE-BWI route, with UA having a token few turbo props daily, it wouldn't make sense either to move those to CAK, especially if the intent is to be the sole carrier on BWI-CLE.

With the DCA/BWI and ORD/MDW markets being popular destinations from CLE that are relatively short drives, it's not as if PAX are going to follow those flights to CAK with open arms. People will be much less inclined to drive an hour to CAK to catch such a short flight.

With WN's next schedule extension being fall, I doubt we see much change at CAK/CLE. By the time next summer's schedule comes out, the dust will have settled from UA's pulldown and we'll probably have a much clearer picture of what demand exists (and how well F9 has done). If F9 proves to be successful this year, why would WN decrease CLE and build up CAK? That would essentially give F9 even more room to grow and make WN hurt even more at CAK, where they would have even less region wide PAX to draw from.


User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 19267 times:

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 45):
When I flew out of CAK on Thursday the 12 something flight was delayed til after 2pm.


I suspect they were still recovering from the weather mess on Wednesday.

[Edited 2014-03-16 06:18:25]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (7 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 19172 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 48):
With Chicago being the number one O&D market from CLE, why would WN move those flights to CAK, a route they tried last year that didn't work?

It didn't work because it was self competing with CLE-MDW. Everything has to be considered in context. I just stated that there is possibility of CAK consolidation from another post above, based on CVG/DAY choices that WN has made. It chose the lower cost airport, where it can be the top carrier one-day. I think the possibility is greater for CLE consolidation. But, general growth has been sidetracked with DCA, LGA and DAL, and likely HOU based growth over BWI and MDW and middle market cities.

[Edited 2014-03-16 09:19:04]

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 51, posted (7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 19115 times:

Fun to compare CLE and CAK daily O&D numbers for some random cities where both have non-stop service, one has service, or neither has service.

City . CAK . CLE
ABQ . 6 ... 50
ALB . 3 ..... 66 (only CLE has flights)
ATL . 311 .. 390 (CAK has low-fares, CLE doesn't)
AUS . 17 .. 89 (only CLE has flights)
BDL . 8 ... 113 ( '" )
BNA . 17 .. 346 ( " )
BWI . 1 .... 442 (yes one! but maybe the DoT is wrong)
DCA . 41 .. 156 (only CLE has flights)
MDW . 117 .. 418 (Both have low fare carriers)
ORD . 88 ... 710 (only CLE has service)
BOS . 287 .. 267 (CAK wins with the only low fare flights)
LAX . 80 ....589 (only CLE has service)

ABQ, where neither city has n-s service may be the fairest comparison of true relative traffic.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinekrod031 From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 19038 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 51):

Interesting. How do you get these numbers??

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 51):
ORD . 88 ... 710 (only CLE has service)

UA Has 3x daily CAK-ORD

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 51):
DCA . 41 .. 156 (only CLE has flights)

and US runs 1x daily CAK-DCA.


User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 19041 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 51):

Fun to compare CLE and CAK daily O&D numbers for some random cities where both have non-stop service, one has service, or neither has service.

City . CAK . CLE
ABQ . 6 ... 50
ALB . 3 ..... 66 (only CLE has flights)
ATL . 311 .. 390 (CAK has low-fares, CLE doesn't)
AUS . 17 .. 89 (only CLE has flights)
BDL . 8 ... 113 ( '" )
BNA . 17 .. 346 ( " )
BWI . 1 .... 442 (yes one! but maybe the DoT is wrong)
DCA . 41 .. 156 (only CLE has flights)
MDW . 117 .. 418 (Both have low fare carriers)
ORD . 88 ... 710 (only CLE has service)
BOS . 287 .. 267 (CAK wins with the only low fare flights)
LAX . 80 ....589 (only CLE has service)

ABQ, where neither city has n-s service may be the fairest comparison of true relative traffic.

FYI, US Airways flies a 1x daily CAK-DCA (surprised that survived the slot divestiture), UA does a 3x daily CAK-ORD.

But the O&D numbers themselves are telling that CAK-CLE are the same market. If you fly it (cheaply) they will come. The BOS numbers just scream out. It's really surprising that B6 hasn't jumped on this yet, especially with WN reducing CAK-BOS to 1x daily (seems like a free giveaway). If F9 was in Boston, this probably would have already been added. This also explains why they added ATL from CLE, O&D is disproportionately high at CAK. Likewise if you posted O&D for CLE and CAK to FLL, TPA, MCO, and RSW it'd also explain F9's strategy.

There's definitely a lot of low hanging fruit for a low cost carrier such as F9 to grab from CLE.

That's also kind of telling for potential consolidation of WN in NE Ohio. Right now WN's routes at CLE are distinct from their routes at CAK (there may be a seasonal Saturday MCO overlap), having the same routes at both airports only hurts themselves. Any move of route from CLE to CAK is going to be an instant gain for F9.

I'd like to see NK add CAK-MYR. Now that would be interesting to see how O&D would change for both CLE and CAK combined. I'm guessing it can't be much now, but would likely do well if someone added that flight.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 54, posted (7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 19016 times:

Quoting krod031 (Reply 52):
Interesting. How do you get these numbers??

Thanks for the service corrections. The numbers are from Table 1A of the DoT Consumer Air Fare Report for the Third Quarter, 2013. (Note: Don't use Table Six which combines CAK and CLE counts as the CLE metro region.)

http://www.dot.gov/policy/aviation-p...stic-airline-fares-consumer-report



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 18960 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 54):

Thanks for posting this.

I thought it'd be interesting to see Q3 2012 versus Q3 2013 for CAK/CLE - PDX. You can definitely see the effect that adding a brand new nonstop does to stimulate the market:

Q3 2012
CAK-PDX 28
CLE-PDX 126

Q3 2013 (non stop added from CLE)
CAK-PDX 20
CLE-PDX 170

It's also interesting to see that for the same period the PAX from NE Ohio to Seattle remained the same for 2012 and 2013, but edged up for CLE as fare differential on the route dropped (but still remained much lower at CAK). It will be interesting to see what the numbers look like this year once F9 rolls this flight out:

Q3 2012
CAK-SEA 92
CLE-SEA 226

Q3 2013
CAK-SEA 64
CLE-SEA 260


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 18921 times:

I've seen it mentioned several times that WN is going to a single daily CAK to BOS but I don't see it. On my trips this summer to BOS I have two choices, maybe just the dumb luck of days I'm traveling. This flight has been seasonal up to two in the summer only for as long as I remember AirTran flying it. No change with WN.

User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 385 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18688 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 50):

WN/FL never served CVG.....



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 58, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 18659 times:
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Quoting swacle (Reply 57):
WN/FL never served CVG.....

I think that was his point - that given a choice between CVG and DAY, Southwest chose DAY.

Who knows why - lower costs, perhaps? Or because Airtran was there?

Still it helped to push Frontier from DEN-DAY to DEN-CVG, which proved to be a good thing for Frontier, just as Frontier's move from DEN-CAK to DEN-CLE was an even better move.  

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-17 18:37:45]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 59, posted (7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 18570 times:

End of summer schedule for Frontier shows frequency decreases as follows:

SEA from 3 per week to 0
FLL from 3 to 2
MCO from 6 to 5
TTN from 4 to 3
ATL from 5 to 4

and the CUN/PUJ non-stop flights turn into one-stops 4 via PIT and 1 via CVG. The website doesn't show PIT and CVG as destinations from CLE, so there may not be any local traffic on those flights.

The net change is down 1 flight per day.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 60, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 18554 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 59):
FLL from 3 to 2
MCO from 6 to 5

Generally, Frontier cuts back Florida frequency from mid September to mid November.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1967 posts, RR: 21
Reply 61, posted (7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 18521 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 58):
Quoting swacle (Reply 57):
WN/FL never served CVG.....

I think that was his point - that given a choice between CVG and DAY, Southwest chose DAY.


But it still isn't comparable to CAK vs. CLE. Neither WN nor FL served CVG so there was never a choice of "CVG or DAY", it was "keep DAY or cut it". At the time, DAY was still Cincinnati's go-to airport for catching an LCC flight so it made sense to keep what FL had there. Shuttering DAY and moving to CVG, an airport neither served, was never an option right in the middle of a merger.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 62, posted (7 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18506 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 61):
But it still isn't comparable to CAK vs. CLE.

It may not be - I didn't make that point.

But merger or not, Airtran or not, it still amused me that that Southwest chose DAY over CLE, just as it amused me that it chose DEN-CAK over DEN-CLE - or even both.

For the last several years, Southwest has chosen primary airports over secondary - which does make sense to me - and suddenly we had this reversal.

At least some part of the reasoning was the continuing theme of making life difficult for the embattled Frontier, but without thinking it through - Frontier had a compelling motive to move to CLE.

There is a long history to this.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 18485 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 59):
and the CUN/PUJ non-stop flights turn into one-stops 4 via PIT and 1 via CVG. The website doesn't show PIT and CVG as destinations from CLE, so there may not be any local traffic on those flights.

The net change is down 1 flight per day.

F9 was doing some of these flights via CVG and PIT this past season, so this is nothing new.

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 56):
I've seen it mentioned several times that WN is going to a single daily CAK to BOS but I don't see it. On my trips this summer to BOS I have two choices, maybe just the dumb luck of days I'm traveling. This flight has been seasonal up to two in the summer only for as long as I remember AirTran flying it. No change with WN.

It goes 1x daily on August 9th. Perhaps it's just 1x daily for the fall? I know that this past winter it was 2x daily on FL.

With United axing the CLE-MHT and CLE-PVD flights, both which had decent O&D themselves, it's really amazing that B6 hasn't announced a NE Ohio airport yet. You'd think dropping those flights would shuffle some traffic back into BOS, and with United down to just 4x ERJ and WN doing 1x daily, any New England adds are no brainers.

UA really gutted service to New England from CLE more than any other region(especially factoring in O&D), good bye BTV, PWM, MHT, PVD, BDL, and mainline BOS.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 64, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 18502 times:
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Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 63):
F9 was doing some of these flights via CVG and PIT this past season, so this is nothing new.

Now that Frontier CEO Siegel has told the staff that CLE is a Frontier focus city, the winter schedule will be interesting.

Up until now the CLE-CUN flights have been Apple initiated, with a block of seats allocated to Frontier. DEN-CUN (like SLC-CUN and several of the others) are Frontier initiated, and Apple has capacity purchase agreements to buy blocks of seats.

I wonder if we might see a few of the latter - CLE-CUN as Frontier initiated flights.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 65, posted (7 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18398 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 63):
With United axing the CLE-MHT and CLE-PVD flights, both which had decent O&D themselves, it's really amazing that B6 hasn't announced a NE Ohio airport yet.

I heard from two JetBlue employees that CLE was high on their list for BOS and FLL. Neither source was especially well-placed, but hearing the rumor twice in different places, neither of which was CLE, added a little weight to it. This rumor preceded Frontier's latest announcement, however; so B6 may be having second thoughts.

I think the success of CAK-BOS drained traffic from CLE-MHT and CLE-PVD. PVD should probably come back, though; there's substantial interest from Textron and Citizens Bank in keeping that route going. I'm not so sure about MHT, especially if CLE-BOS sees some lower fares.



Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 63):
F9 was doing some of these flights via CVG and PIT this past season, so this is nothing new.

True, but does F9 carry traffic between CLE and PIT/CVG? I don't think so; they're apparently blind sectors, which is a pity because F9 will have the only service.

Quoting mariner (Reply 64):
Now that Frontier CEO Siegel has told the staff that CLE is a Frontier focus city, the winter schedule will be interesting.

I think there will be several surprises (CLE-related or not) from F9 in the fall based on 1) their ambitious pilot training plan and 2) financial results from the summer. We know about the pilot training, which seems to predict the acquisition of some single-digit number of used aircraft. We don't know about the $$$, which will no doubt drive their choices.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 66, posted (7 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18302 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
True, but does F9 carry traffic between CLE and PIT/CVG?

Not local traffic, same with ORD-STL.

They could, but whether they will is unknown to me. It's only a very few flights a week and would require some investment to make it more than that. Is there much traffic CLE-PIT?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
We don't know about the $$$, which will no doubt drive their choices.

Since it is now a privately held company, we won't know much about the financial side at all.

I doubt that Indigo is expecting much more than operational profit this summer, because it is doing what Republic eventually refused to do - providing capital for necessary capital expenditure, the pilot hires, as you note, and they're spending $30 million on the new seats.

Progress payments on the Neo order are booked to Frontier, but I think Indigo starts out fairly clean in terms of fleet - the costs of early lease cancellations are mostly accounted for - from here on, I think the A319 replacements (with A320) will happen as those leases naturally expire.

At Republic, Frontier was operating on its own cash flow and any money it made - and it did make some - was booked to Republic consolidated fund.

The profitability - or not - of the actual routes is almost the easy part. Throughout the Republic adventure, and especially the dark days of early 2011 when oil was $120 bbl, Republic insisted that the Airbus fleet at DEN was operating profitably most of the year - which is what drove the subsequent decisions.

The great issue at DEN-centric Frontier has always been Q1 - winter. I can't recall when Frontier last made a profit in Q1, however much money it made the rest of the year. It was Siegel's decision that Frontier must participate in the lucrative Northeast to Florida market, snowbird traffic, which is what drove TTN (and ILG).

CLE is that - but much more than that as well. CLE-PHX is one of the early leaders of the pack in terms of bookings - thanks, United.

The most surprising route choice - to me - is CLE-ATL (and to a lesser extent RDU). Frontier's history with Delta (and previously Northwest), is a deeply unhappy one with Delta going nuclear at any perceived incursion into its turf. So while I understood TTN/ILG-ATL and DTW (Delta serves neither) CLE to ATL and RDU are - or could be - provocative.

It suggests that the relationship with Delta has somehow changed. It may simply be Delta has come to the sensible decision that Frontier's market is not its market. Or that Delta now sees Frontier as a bulwark against Southwest . Or it may be the recognition that Franke (Indigo) has deep pockets and very big balls - Delta did not play is turf games with Spirit.

Whatever it is, I'll be holding my breath for the next week or two.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-18 11:37:26]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 67, posted (7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18255 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
Is there much traffic CLE-PIT?

CLE-PIT was never much of an O&D market. CO and US both used it for hub feed purposes. CLE-CVG, however, used to be a decent market. In the quarter preceding 911, it was 130 pax/day, which was nice support for connecting traffic at the CO and DL hubs. Post 911, CLE-CVG was killed by the "hassle factor" affecting most short-haul markets.

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
CLE is that - but much more than that as well. CLE-PHX is one of the early leaders of the pack in terms of bookings - thanks, United.

F9 might also like CLE-SAN in the winter. It's a decent market that CO flew some summers and Christmases. While CO had no trouble filling the planes, the story went that WN's fares killed the yield except at peak seasons. With no non-stop service in the market, CLE-SAN was 180/day in Q1, 2013, 187/day in Q2, and 167/day in Q3. Non-stop service at F9's fares would probably attract CAK (and maybe some PIT) fliers as well. Given that it is a leisure market, less than daily service could well fill the plane.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18218 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 65):
I think there will be several surprises (CLE-related or not) from F9 in the fall based on 1) their ambitious pilot training plan and 2) financial results from the summer. We know about the pilot training, which seems to predict the acquisition of some single-digit number of used aircraft. We don't know about the $$$, which will no doubt drive their choices.

Yes, I would agree with you that we may find some surprises going forward in CLE. Now that it has officially been designated a F9 focus city I would expect a number of destinations to be added once aircraft become available. As Mariner has said, the early CLE bookings have exceeded company expectations.

I would hope to see flights to LAS, LAX, SFO, DFW, STL, MSY and more over the next year. The one caveat may be the distances. Perhaps the west coast flights could be red-eye types that will probably work with the exception of the shoulder seasons.

Unless UAL price matches F9, it will be more of a challenge for them to financially compete without their previous network feed.

One thing is apparent with the arrival of F9 at CLE, the airport will not become another PIT or MEM.

Frontier 14


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8308 posts, RR: 23
Reply 69, posted (7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18199 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
Is there much traffic CLE-PIT?

No. It's barely a 2 hour drive, and an easy one at that. I can't imagine anyone who would prefer to fly that.

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 68):
One thing is apparent with the arrival of F9 at CLE, the airport will not become another PIT or MEM.

It looks that way, fortunately! I sincerely hope F9 is moving back towards the airline it used to be, however, and not in a more Spiritly direction. For a while there they were perceived almost as a western JetBlue, but I'm leery of the nickel-and-diming they seem to be getting into, as well as the obnoxious website-ad-based livery. Doing what is neccessary to maintain low fares is fine, but Frontier needs to maintain a passenger-friendly demeanor for them to get my business (not that I matter much.) I'm hoping they keep a good product and don't turn into a 28'' pitch, no-recline, chargin' for carry-on's kinda carrier...



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 70, posted (7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18187 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 67):
CLE-CVG, however, used to be a decent market. In the quarter preceding 911, it was 130 pax/day, which was nice support for connecting traffic at the CO and DL hubs

I could see that, although initially as a through flight - CLE-CVG-CUN - with, say, CLE-CVG-RSW as well, given the early response to CLE-RSW.

CLE has opened up a huge can of worms, especially in view of the now constrained fleet. There may be enough slack in the feet to add a couple of frequencies this summer, but not much more than that and maybe not even that. There have been rumours of another aircraft coming in, but that may be a confusion about N223FR, which enters service in April and is already scheduled.

Looking ahead to winter, there are several wild cards, one of which is Apple. It intrigues me that LAN can support PVR (as well as CUN and PUJ) but Apple does not offer PVR from CLE or CVG. I'd always thought of PVR as mostly for the west of the Big River crowd, but then I come back to LAN-PVR. Whether there is a winter market CLE-PVR is a complete unknown to me, and similarly CLE-Costa Rica. CZM is another one - it gets good service from Apple's more westerly ports - DEN, ORD, MSP, DFW - but nothing from the east, not even STL.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 69):
For a while there they were perceived almost as a western JetBlue

And lost money continually in that process. Frontier did not report a full year profit from 2003 until 2012, when the move to ULCC changed the economics.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8308 posts, RR: 23
Reply 71, posted (7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 18090 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
And lost money continually in that process. Frontier did not report a full year profit from 2003 until 2012, when the move to ULCC changed the economics.

You can still make money, be a ULCC, and have a quality product! Human-sized legroom, comfortable seats, good customer service, and quality buy-on-board products isn't asking for too much.

Jetblue has fantastic legroom, free snacks and drinks, free bags, oustanding customer service, etc. etc. They were my carrier of choice when I lived in Boston and I'd LOVE to see them in Cleveland. They'd have my business in a second.

I've flown Frontier once, and I enjoyed it. It wasn't JetBlue, but it was just as good as United, and at a fraction of the price. F9 won't be (and isn't trying to be) JetBlue, but if they keep up a quality product, I'll pay a little extra for legroom and a snack, no problem, and I'd be happy to fly with them again! If they become Spirit, though, I'll go far out of my way to avoid them. Since it looks like they're here to stay, I hope they go the route of the former!



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 72, posted (7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 18069 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 71):
You can still make money, be a ULCC, and have a quality product! Human-sized legroom, comfortable seats, good customer service, and quality buy-on-board products isn't asking for too much.

Sure, they can. I just posted that they're spending $30 million on new seats, and one of the conditions for those seats is the comfort factor.

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
and they're spending $30 million on the new seats.

But Frontier is designed for those for whom price matters - people who pay their own fares - and you can see it in the bookings for CLE. Generally, not always, the flights with the lowest fares are selling like hot cakes, the higher priced flights, even if it is only $20, are slower.

This article in Motley Fool sums it up right:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...es-to-the-rescue-in-cleveland.aspx

"Frontier Airlines Comes to the Rescue in Cleveland

Frontier offers a very different type of product than United or the other legacy carriers. Most of its new Cleveland routes will be served less than daily (typically with three to five weekly flights). Frontier also lacks a first class section, and legroom tends to be tighter than on United's planes. These attributes make Frontier less attractive to business travelers.

However, many leisure customers will be happy to cope with less legroom and a more restrictive flight schedule for the lower fares that Frontier will offer. Thus, while losing the United hub may be bad for Cleveland-area businesses, it seems increasingly likely that leisure travelers will benefit from more competition and lower fares."


Frontier is what it is, and it isn't intending to be JetBlue or to replace United at CLE, there will always be room for other carriers. I hope you get your wish, but in the meantime - or if JetBlue doesn't make it to CLE - there is Frontier.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:12:03]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 73, posted (7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17951 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 70):
Looking ahead to winter, there are several wild cards, one of which is Apple.

Apple flew CLE-PVR one winter using USA3000 as their carrier. They did not repeat it, while CUN, PUJ, SJU, and NAS have had CLE flights for a good number of years. PVR is on average a substantially more expensive resort and was perhaps not a success for that reason.

Clevelanders do like the west coast of Florida, however. CO regularly ran 3 or 4 a day to TPA, RSW, and MCO. FLL is interesting both for the tourists and the huge branch of the Cleveland Clinic there. MIA and PBI are relatively small CLE markets. I will guess that F9 will confine the 2014-15 winter flight adds to increased frequencies at the four Florida cities they have already selected plus maybe one or two a week to UST Maybe a new foreign spot will come along the following year.

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
But Frontier is designed for those for whom price matters - people who pay their own fares -

When I was self-employed, price mattered very much. There are lots of self-employed and small business travelers in NE Ohio. I think F9 will see a good bit of business flying despite their limited frequencies. Access to NYC airports and DCA will be a challenge if F9 wants to cater more to the broad business market.

Quoting mariner (Reply 66):
Frontier's history with Delta (and previously Northwest), is a deeply unhappy one with Delta going nuclear at any perceived incursion into its turf.

DL is a question mark in CLE, but probably no threat to F9's plans. I'd watch to see 1) if they add any additional routes from the west and 2) if they open a SkyClub. CLE is probably working on them very hard to open a route to CDG or AMS. Whatever they do will be limited, however; they will never be willing to divert much traffic from DTW.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 74, posted (7 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17952 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 73):
I'd watch to see 1) if they add any additional routes

When Frontier started MCI-MSP, Delta overlaid five of Frontier's routes from MCI, including one that Frontier had just cancelled. When Delta found out that route was cancelled it overlaid another Frontier route.

It is a long history, going back to about 2002, when Frontier announced SLC-PVR - which Delta did not then serve. The reaction was so fierce that Frontier never started the route.

There are several other examples, which is why I won't relax for a week or two.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-19 00:00:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 75, posted (7 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 17742 times:

Silver may be hanging around CLE longer than expected. Apparently nobody's lining up to provide replacement service at the five EAS points. Their contract runs until September and there is no chance of replacement service by mid-May when they wanted to leave.

I wonder if F9 would like some feeder flights.  



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (7 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 17643 times:

^Didn't Silver try to get DOT approval to move those flights to IAD? Was that denied?

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 77, posted (7 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 17607 times:

I believe Silver's current approach is to try to get an early rebid on the routes rather than transfer them. Silver is having pilot problems, like all the other regionals, and is seriously stressed operating ATL, IAD, CLE, and Florida simultaneously. For now, they wouldn't mind shrinking their system.

The trouble is nobody's lining up to bid.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 17406 times:

I wonder if UA is surprised at how quickly Frontier and Delta have added new service to CLE


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineavnut43 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17353 times:

cleveland.com had a series of stories regarding Burke Lakefront and what should be done with it.


Burke Lakefront Airport: Should it close?
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ncart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2

Burke Lakefront Airport: An asset to the city or a waste of prime real estate?
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...e_lakefr.html#incart_river_default

Burke Lakefront Airport: Meigs Field in Chicago closed overnight
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rt_meigs.html#incart_river_default

Burke Lakefront Airport: Santa Monica shows fight to close airport can last decades
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rt_santa.html#incart_river_default


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 80, posted (7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17352 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 78):
I wonder if UA is surprised at how quickly Frontier and Delta have added new service to CLE

I was wondering the same thing. I think UA had planned on a long and profitable goodbye (a politer term than ef-you), as route by route their CLE service is slowly withdrawn and all that's left is hub flights. Now that is in danger of turning into a disorganized rout.

It's not that Frontier is swamping the market with frequencies, although more frequencies may come later; it's the fares they charge. If they open a few more business markets, those fares will kill UA's yields overnight.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17347 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 80):
It's not that Frontier is swamping the market with frequencies, although more frequencies may come later; it's the fares they charge. If they open a few more business markets, those fares will kill UA's yields overnight.

The amazing part for me is the routes they are cutting: LAX (down at least 1 RT), SFO (down at least 1 RT), plus SEA & PDX (1/2 RT). These were mostly O&D lanes and UA just gave up. The most surprising ones were the hub to hub LAX and SFO. For example, I like to take PVG>SFO>CLE home and I can't most Saturday's as there is not a mid day flight many times. Same for our vacation home from HNL next month, have to stay the night in SFO as the redeye direct is cancelled on Easter week Saturday!!!


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 82, posted (7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17318 times:

I think F9 scrambled to get into the CLE market before anybody else did. It'll be fun to see how they schedule when they have more time to plan.

I'm hoping for a couple more routes in the fall. Routes with >100 pax a day that UA is dropping and F9 serves only (and perhaps inefficiently) from DEN include MSY, MCI (not counting the Mexican stuff), SAN, and AUS. Any of those would be nice to see.


Before the city sells off Burke, I think they should sell the I-X Center back to private operators. The Center was bought to make room for a runway that may never be needed - look at what LHR can do with two runways.  Smile

[Edited 2014-03-21 12:43:35]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 83, posted (7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17285 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 80):
It's not that Frontier is swamping the market with frequencies, although more frequencies may come later; it's the fares they charge. If they open a few more business markets, those fares will kill UA's yields overnight.

I doubt Frontier will be a high frequency airline at CLE - or anywhere. It isn't designed for frequency nor road warriors.

Higher frequency - the business traveller and and connection opportunities - helped kill Frontier at MKE. Low, or lower, frequencies, and intense seasonality has been the basis of the restructure.

Legacy concepts don't apply.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-21 13:01:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17246 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 83):
Higher frequency - the business traveller and and connection opportunities - helped kill Frontier at MKE. Low, or lower, frequencies, and intense seasonality has been the basis of the restructure.

Legacy rules don't apply.

I think what was meant was more frequency, perhaps as in routes going about 6x weekly or 1x daily (like TTN-MDW). Higher frequency than 3x weekly but not high frequency as in 3x+ daily.

F9 on a route like CLE-SFO or CLE-LAX even if 6x weekly or 1x daily could dampen UA's yields esp. if F9 times the flight with a morning CLE departure. UA wants to charge a premium for the SFO or LAX nonstop from certain mid-size markets out east even though UA just flies 1x daily out of some. F9 offering n/s means UA's value it offers is no longer premium, for majority in the back of the plane.

[Edited 2014-03-21 13:20:02]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 85, posted (7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17236 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 84):
F9 on a route like CLE-SFO or CLE-LAX even if 6x weekly or 1x daily could dampen UA's yields esp. if F9 times the flight with a morning CLE departure. UA wants to charge a premium for the SFO or LAX nonstop from certain mid-size markets out east even though UA just flies 1x daily out of some.

I suppose that's the point I don't understand. Whatever harm United has experienced at CLE it has done to itself and Frontier and United have different core markets - they coexist quite happily on any number of routes out of DEN - MSN, MOT, FAR, BIS, EUG, FAT, BLI, BFL, BMI, CID, SBA, GTF, IDA, BZN, MSO, CVG - it's a long list.

I can't think why Frontier would want to do any damage to United, which seems to have decided that Frontier is no hindrance and may even help - low fares stimulate the market and a rising tide lifts all boats.

I'm hoping that Delta has come to the same conclusion and I breathe a little easier each day - but only a little.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 86, posted (7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17231 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 85):
I'm hoping that Delta has come to the same conclusion and I breathe a little easier each day - but only a little.

I think Frontier could schedule a flight from Cleveland to Richard Anderson's driveway and Delta wouldn't care. I kind of wish they did, but I doubt it.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 87, posted (7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17204 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 86):
I think Frontier could schedule a flight from Cleveland to Richard Anderson's driveway and Delta wouldn't care. I kind of wish they did, but I doubt it.

As I said above, Delta has always cared before and my reactions are based on past experience, and the quite recent past - Frontier's MCI-MSP and Delta's brutal reaction to it was a little over two years ago.

I very much hope the attitude at Delta has changed - and so far, so good - but it will be another couple of weeks before I rest easy.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17132 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):
As I said above, Delta has always cared before and my reactions are based on past experience, and the quite recent past - Frontier's MCI-MSP and Delta's brutal reaction to it was a little over two years ago.

I very much hope the attitude at Delta has changed - and so far, so good - but it will be another couple of weeks before I rest easy.

mariner

I don't think CLE-RDU by DL will affect F9's CLE-RDU. Both might just expand the market. I just checked on 8/12 (Tuesday) to 8/14(Thursday). DL has one nonstop flight out of CLE 6:50am-8:20am, offered by DL connection, and return departs at 7:55pm reaches back at CLE at 9:35pm. Round trip fare in economy is about $1000. I know there maybe corporate discounts and such but for regular pax, it will be considered high fare. CLE-RDU by F9 has a very different schedule on those same days, and fared between $200-300 r/t total. I also don't know if this is just a summer seasonal route as well.

With DL's hub in ATL, it will offer a similar time flight as F9's one on CLE-ATL certainly. But what will it really do? Put a widebody aircraft on the same day/time flight as F9 just to have enough low fare seats? Probably not. I'm going to guess some price matching on that day/time flight but DL still needing to reserving seats for connecting pax, and F9 not needing to and able to fill the plane on low fares by keeping them lower longer.

It's a test but a good one: If it succeeds on it, it can offer opportunistic style 3-6x weekly on CLE-IAH (against United), CLE-DFW (against AA) easily since the toughest one (flying into DL's hub) has been marked as done. The question is if this style of flying will be applied elsewhere. Why not, maybe it launches IAH-SEA (4x weekly), CVG-LAX (3x weekly) and such... However, I think it works because of having a customerbase in a market and that helps at CLE. At those markets like IAH and SEA, F9 is likely just another carrier or not a well known one. I'm also kind of curious if it will compete against WN on a non DEN based route at a certain point. I think CLE-LAS would be one, but that would be kind of easy now that F9 has CLE support and LAS being very destinational. But what about a CLE-BNA? My guess is F9 won't fly it even with a light schedule.


User currently offlineFrontier14 From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17122 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 88):
But what about a CLE-BNA? My guess is F9 won't fly it even with a light schedule.

I am inclined to consider F9 trying CLE - STL at a future date. This will bump up against Southwest; but it will also connect the dots for two Frontier focus cities outside of Denver.

Frontier 14


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 90, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17107 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 88):
But what will it really do?

What will it really do? Who knows and I am hoping nothing. But I have explained at some length it has done a lot in the past:

Quoting mariner (Reply 74):
When Frontier started MCI-MSP, Delta overlaid five of Frontier's routes from MCI, including one that Frontier had just cancelled. When Delta found out that route was cancelled it overlaid another Frontier route.

If does not react this time, then something has changed and hooray for that, I'll wait and see.

And it may be that other things have changed, there is also the issue of the new ownership at Frontier. Again as I've said before, previous Frontier may have been seen as easy meat by others but Bill Franke may be a whole different cookie, with enormous experience, deep pockets and much bigger balls.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 88):
I'm also kind of curious if it will compete against WN on a non DEN based route at a certain point.

In one sense it already has, given that Southwest's CLE-MCO and CLE-RSW are seasonal.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 88):
I think CLE-LAS would be one, but that would be kind of easy now that F9 has CLE support and LAS being very destinational. But what about a CLE-BNA? My guess is F9 won't fly it even with a light schedule.

I could easily see Frontier starting CLE-LAS - despite Southwest - but I don't know that CLE-BNA would be such a plum for Frontier that it is worth even a small battle. CLE-CLT - maybe, but that isn't Southwest.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 17067 times:

F9 was handed CLE on a platter.

UA thought that by dehubbing CLE when they did, it was going to prevent any other carriers from significantly modifying their (mostly) established summer schedules. So that way, when June 5th came around, UA would still be operating the most non stop flights during the busy summer season at premium fares.

Oh how F9 changed that. I've been pricing western US flights this summer and F9 is almost always the cheapest, often significantly. The 2x daily to DEN will really force UA to be competitive to most west coast destinations, and of course the non stops to SEA and PHX are easy $. CLE passengers are hungry for deals and the free publicity F9 has been getting across NE Ohio the past month has to be good. Anecdotally, I'm overhearing people talking about the new flights (and prices) at restaurants and grocery stores.

It doesn't even look like WN is attempting to price match the Florida flights the same as F9 either (via a connection in CLE or nonstop from CAK). In many cases, WN is double. It'll be interesting to see how long these fares stay this way. I just don't see how WN can survive at CAK to Florida without matching F9 fares at CLE. Regardless, it will be interesting to see how much O&D traffic was stimulated to Florida from NE Ohio this summer compared to last.

I'm still hoping we hear a B6 to Boston announcement soon. B6 recently started at DTW with just 3x daily and no other B6 destinations, so it's not as if they aren't afraid to start new locations with only BOS destinations. If B6 wanted the JFK and FLL market from CLE, I think they are too late to the game, perhaps that's why they're hesitant to start only CLE-BOS.

I suppose nothing ever came from that blurb right after the United announcement of an airline going "all mainline" at CLE?


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16985 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 91):
I'm still hoping we hear a B6 to Boston announcement soon. B6 recently started at DTW with just 3x daily and no other B6 destinations, so it's not as if they aren't afraid to start new locations with only BOS destinations. If B6 wanted the JFK and FLL market from CLE, I think they are too late to the game, perhaps that's why they're hesitant to start only CLE-BOS.

I'm not sure CLE-BOS and CLE-FLL are that dependent. B6 has PIT,PHL,DTW,ORD with BOS flights but none of these cities having FLL flights from B6. I think B6 is busy with DCA unfortunately and other areas in it's network but BOS service would be more likely over FLL services given the direction of PIT, PHL, DTW and ORD around CLE.


User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 16967 times:

Quoting avnut43:


cleveland.com had a series of stories regarding Burke Lakefront and what should be done with it.


Burke Lakefront Airport: Should it close?
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ncart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2

Burke Lakefront Airport: An asset to the city or a waste of prime real estate?
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...e_lakefr.html#incart_river_default

Burke Lakefront Airport: Meigs Field in Chicago closed overnight
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rt_meigs.html#incart_river_default

Burke Lakefront Airport: Santa Monica shows fight to close airport can last decades
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rt_santa.html#incart_river_default

Hardly neutral---very painful to even read as its ultimately an opinion set pushing for closure---just look at the title of three of the articles: they are about closure; the fourth is half closure, half not (an asset or waste?"). And publishing stories about methods to close it (Meigs field approach vs. Santa Monica) while asking 'should we keep it?' is clearly leading the reader. Sadly, the author knows little about aviation and has nothing to say as to why BKL is valuable. She truly has no idea. As, for the Plain Dealer, the set of articles is truly a reflection how far a once-good paper has fallen.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 94, posted (7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 16894 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 90):
I don't know that CLE-BNA would be such a plum for Frontier that it is worth even a small battle. CLE-CLT - maybe, but that isn't Southwest.

CLE-CLT is 156 pax/day. CLE-BNA is 346 pax/day. There's room for F9 on the BNA route if it's just a couple of flights a week.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 91):
I suppose nothing ever came from that blurb right after the United announcement of an airline going "all mainline" at CLE?

That was a mystery. It could have been DL, before the route additions, or it might still be AA.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 95, posted (7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 16873 times:
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Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 94):
CLE-CLT is 156 pax/day. CLE-BNA is 346 pax/day. There's room for F9 on the BNA route if it's just a couple of flights a week.

There may be room, but I just don't see the point of poking a burnt stick in Southwest's eye in that particular case when there are other very good routes without that competitive - lower fare - element.

CLE-BNA has already felt the effect of lower fares - CLE-CLT has not.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (7 months 2 days ago) and read 16828 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 51):
Fun to compare CLE and CAK daily O&D numbers for some random cities where both have non-stop service, one has service, or neither has service.

City . CAK . CLE
ABQ . 6 ... 50
ALB . 3 ..... 66 (only CLE has flights)
ATL . 311 .. 390 (CAK has low-fares, CLE doesn't)
AUS . 17 .. 89 (only CLE has flights)
BDL . 8 ... 113 ( '" )
BNA . 17 .. 346 ( " )
BWI . 1 .... 442 (yes one! but maybe the DoT is wrong)
DCA . 41 .. 156 (only CLE has flights)
MDW . 117 .. 418 (Both have low fare carriers)
ORD . 88 ... 710 (only CLE has service)
BOS . 287 .. 267 (CAK wins with the only low fare flights)
LAX . 80 ....589 (only CLE has service)

ABQ, where neither city has n-s service may be the fairest comparison of true relative traffic.

Well things are about to get interesting to the DC market! In one of the other threads it's suggested that WN will be using 2 of their DC slots for DCA-CAK. As shown above, there's currently very little O&D between the two right now. Perhaps this is the start of the shift from CLE to CAK by Southwest? They'll obviously be trying to lure passengers from CLE and perhaps their own CLE-BWI passengers to fill those planes. If this does indeed happen, would we see CLE-BWI frequencies slashed? Definitely an interesting move by WN and definitely changes my perspective on what they plan to do with CAK. Perhaps we will see a consolidation of flights favored towards CAK?


User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 511 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 16806 times:

I just do not see SWA shifting from CLE to CAK, I see it in the exact opposite direction. I do not believe CAK has the size to have all of SWA's flights consolidate there. And yes, I know CAK has considered expanding their terminal, but they are sitting on a mound of debt they will need to pay off. Principal payments on that debt are only going to continue to increase in the coming years. I would not want to add to that mound of debt if I were them.

Latest audit report:
https://ohioauditor.gov/auditsearch/Reports/2013/Akron_Canton_Regional_Airport_Authority_12-Summit.pdf



I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16542 times:

The United pull down is in full swing over the next 7 days. A laundry list of destinations will be having their last flights.

Oddly, it seems like United is trying out limited week frequencies to some destinations? For example, there are no UA flights to ALB from CLE tomorrow or Wednesday. Then in April CLE-ALB becomes once daily at 3:30pm. Then in May it becomes once daily at 8:23pm. Then once the official dehub begins on June 5th it becomes 2x daily, 7:30am and 12:20pm. I'm not sure what UA is trying to do with that flight, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the first discontinued destination after the dehub.

I think the other "big news" story is that WN is indeed starting DCA-CAK this November. What will this mean for CLE in terms of WN flights to BWI? O&D between DCA and CAK is barely enough to fill a CRJ, let alone a couple 737s. I'm wondering how much bleed from CLE will end up on those flights? I can understand driving to CAK to catch a cheap flight for a far away destination, but I'm not sure how many CLE area PAX (both leisure and business) would be willing to drive an hour to CAK to catch a slightly cheaper flight and that is only a 5.5 hour drive? I also wonder if UA will end up price matching CLE-DCA to WN's CAK-DCA? UA might be forced to drop frequencies on CLE-DCA, which for the time being is staying unchanged at 5x daily pre-dehub and post-dehub. I'm also doubtful US/AA 1x DCA-CAK would survive against WN. I'm still quite puzzled at the CAK-DCA choice; they must be trying to set the flight up as a one stop to someplace outside the DCA perimeter. I would have guessed a DAL-CAK route before a DCA-CAK route, but who knows, maybe that's in the works.

So perhaps in May, when WN releases their next schedule, we'll get a clearer picture of what the Southwest landscape could move towards for the NE Ohio airports. Maybe WN will drop some of their leisure routes from CAK and focus on building business markets (BOS, LGA, DCA, ATL, DEN)?


Not to mention, we've also got the last American flight to LaGuardia from CLE at the end of the month. That leaves ORD, DFW, PHL, MIA, CLT, and a 1x daily JFK as destinations from the new AA. That definitely leaves some room for AA to expand to their other hubs or up gauge some of these existing flights.


User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16473 times:

Rome wasn't built in a day, and I suspect it will be a good 12 to 18 months before the airlines are able to react and reach a new equilibrium-- and that includes AA. CLE airport was absolutely packed this weekend, obviously spring break and who knows maybe the wonderful film festival too, and I just kept saying to myself, where are those people going to go? In the next 12 months, they aren't going to go much place else, it's just going to take a while for other carriers to fill in. But they will, they surely will.

User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9234 posts, RR: 21
Reply 100, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16446 times:

All of this news about CLE becoming a F9 focus city is making my blood boil. CLE is about to soar, while PIT stumbles. As PIT tries to find another CEO to head the 3-ring circus that is the ACAA, maybe they should be looking to some of the folks in NE OH. They apparently know how to run an airport post-hub.

Kudos to Cleveland, they seem to have their act together!

What exactly is the Cleveland airport authority doing up there? How did they land F9? CLE was about to become one of the most expensive airports in the country, and their catchment area isn't that much bigger than PIT...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16354 times:

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 100):
CLE is about to soar, while PIT stumbles. As PIT tries to find another CEO to head the 3-ring circus that is the ACAA, maybe they should be looking to some of the folks in NE OH.

Certainly happy about the F9 effort. Time will tell if CLE actually soars or remains victim, like PIT to our beloved U.S. super-hubs. Not sure why deregulation and the hub model made combination or tag on flights suddenly non-effective, but I'd sure like to see the powers to be in the CLE-CAK-PIT region, with a population base equal to Chi-town or better, pool their efforts to pitch to foreign carriers for such itineraries as a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA or LHR-PIT-CLE-LHR or the reverse or both, even if not daily, or year round or whatever. Taking the majority of local European bound traffic from the region away from the US legacies would suit them well despite all their collusion thru alliances.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 102, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 16331 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 98):
I also wonder if UA will end up price matching CLE-DCA to WN's CAK-DCA?

United didn't match CAK-BOS fares in CLE, and I doubt they will to DCA either.

It's hard to say what their long-term plan is. It seems obvious that Delta has figured out how to make money domestically and United hasn't. Until they turn this around, their domestic schedule will continue to shrink.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 16316 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 102):
It seems obvious that Delta has figured out how to make money domestically and United hasn't. Until they turn this around, their domestic schedule will continue to shrink.

Too bad UA couldn't find a way to "use" CLE in a similar way that CO did when it was once on skid row and made a complete turn around the time CLE was it's most profitable hub.


User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 104, posted (6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16250 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 101):
such itineraries as a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA or LHR-PIT-CLE-LHR

With the way the aviation/airline business is changing, this is not out of the question as it was done by a few carriers back in the 70s and 80s using the CLE-DTW city pair. Now that DL is established at DTW a CLE-PIT Eurpoean city pair might work a couple of days per week.

Chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16199 times:

Quoting joeman:
such itineraries as a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA or LHR-PIT-CLE-LHR
Quoting chrisjake:
With the way the aviation/airline business is changing, this is not out of the question as it was done by a few carriers back in the 70s and 80s using the CLE-DTW city pair. Now that DL is established at DTW a CLE-PIT Eurpoean city pair might work a couple of days per week.

Yes, JAT did something like that. I'm not sure of the rules at that time and at least now, one must clear immigration at the first port of entry. But does that refer to the plane or to the pax/crew? So in the FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA scenario, assuming the carrier, whether LH or a US carrier, did NOT carry pax between PIT and CLE, would all pax have to disembark and clear immigration in PIT, and then reboard for the 20-min hop to CLE? or could CLE-bound pax go through FIS in CLE?

(If pax were allowed to fly only PIT-CLE, then all pax would definitely have to clear in PIT, as upon arrival in CLE there would be no way to control who should be forced through INS and who shouldn't be unless everyone was herded to a sifting station.)


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 106, posted (6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 16186 times:

In a FRA-PIT-CLE-FRA routing, everyone would have to clear customs in PIT in order for the carrier to pick up pax in PIT for the PIT-CLE-FRA sectors. The carrier would not be allowed to mix cleared and not-cleared pax on the PIT-CLE segment.

My interest in some future Frontier-Wizz joint venture, both of which are Indigo companies, is in how the TATL connection might be handled. Might Frontier try used 767's to go to a Wizz city or Wizz try it from Europe? Or would a new company along the lines of Norwegian be needed. It's intriguing (to me at least).



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 16157 times:

^but what if NEW pax were not carried on PIT-CLE, would the CLE-bound pax still have to clear in PIT, or could they do so in CLE? If in CLE, then something like this could work, if not, it would just tie up personnel and a gate, and not be feasible.

Re the Frontier-Wizz joint venture, I like the idea. A Budapest hub for Cleveland is so fitting! I could see a daily CLE-BUD flight (with feed at both ends).


User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 16159 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 105):
JAT did something like that

as well as Air Canada (747), Delta (A310), Pan Am (A310) and American Eagle (707) from what I can recall. It was seasonal and only a couple of days per week. Don't see why that couldn't work now.

Chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlinegreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16114 times:

^wow, didn't know that. What were the routings of those airlines? Or at least, what was the foreign city?

User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16118 times:

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 109):
What were the routings of those airlines? Or at least, what was the foreign city?

Air Canada was London....but not sure which London airport. American Eagle was Frankfurt and I believe possibly other German cities depending on the day. I don't recall whether Pan Am was London or Frankfurt, but Delta took over the route once they merged with Pan Am. These were paired with DTW.

The JAT Yugoslav flight was actually paired with ORD and went to either Zagreb or Ljubljana depending on the day. This started with 707s and then DC10s

Chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9234 posts, RR: 21
Reply 111, posted (6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16008 times:

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 110):
I don't recall whether Pan Am was London or Frankfurt, but Delta took over the route once they merged with Pan Am. These were paired with DTW.

If it was something DL took over, I'm thinking the foreign city was FRA. I know DL picked up the PA hub there when PA shut down. It would make sense...

I like the idea of a CLE-PIT-FRA/LHR, etc myself. I, too, would think that all U.S-bound pax, whether PIT- or CLE-bound, would have to clear customs at PIT.

I know BA used to have the tag-on back in the '80s when they flew LHR-PIT. They had such city pairs as LHR-BWI-PIT and LHR-PHL-PIT, and I believe that pax cleared customs in either BWI or PHL. It's wherever the point-of-entry into the US is at where one would have to clear customs; not so much on the final destination...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 112, posted (6 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 15992 times:

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 100):
All of this news about CLE becoming a F9 focus city is making my blood boil. CLE is about to soar, while PIT stumbles.

Lets keep things in perspective. So far F9 has announced 12 cities for CLE on less than daily service, and Delta a few as well, once daily. So lets say between the two carriers CLE will gain an average 12-15 new daily flights (so far, more to follow for sure). But they still have 100+ flights to lose, and United won't stop there.

The good thing about F9 is their low fares will stimulate the market for new demand. The question remains is how long will they sustain those low fares as CLE's operating costs are set to skyrocket due to the large cutback in flights.

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 110):

Air Canada was London....but not sure which London airport.

I don't think Air Canada ever served London direct (one stop) from CLE. Yes, I am aware of the Air Canada 747 at CLE photo in the database; most likely a diversion. An extensive google news archive search reveals nothing about Air Canada service to London. One would think that service would have made the local news.

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 110):
I don't recall whether Pan Am was London or Frankfurt, but Delta took over the route once they merged with Pan Am. These were paired with DTW.

It was to LGW. A-310 via DTW.

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 110):

The JAT Yugoslav flight was actually paired with ORD and went to either Zagreb or Ljubljana depending on the day. This started with 707s and then DC10s

They were also paired with DTW and PIT on this side, and Belgrade and Dubrovnik on the other end. Many different combinations.


CLE also had seasonal weekly nonstop service to FRA in the summer of 1993 with Condor. I believe it remains the longest scheduled trans-Atlantic 757 sector to ever have flown. Condor also served CLE in the early 1980s.

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 111):

I know BA used to have the tag-on back in the '80s when they flew LHR-PIT. They had such city pairs as LHR-BWI-PIT and LHR-PHL-PIT, and I believe that pax cleared customs in either BWI or PHL. It's wherever the point-of-entry into the US is at where one would have to clear customs; not so much on the final destination...

They cleared at PIT. It was via IAD (not BWI) or PHL, and at one time via YUL.



FLYi
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15919 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
The good thing about F9 is their low fares will stimulate the market for new demand. The question remains is how long will they sustain those low fares as CLE's operating costs are set to skyrocket due to the large cutback in flights.

Somehow PITrules I think Frontier is smart enough to analyze the current and future cost structure in CLE before they made their decision to absolutely rush in to the CLE market. Yeah it's a toe, but what's striking to me is how fast they did it, even with this so called skyrocketing costs.

And I know everyone here is all doom and gloom on CLE cost structure, as well as other airports around the country, but what I'd like to know is what % of airline spending is landing fees-- compared to fuel and labor it's got to be a nit on a gnat-- and for that matter there's landing fees, but what about gate and counter rental fees, where do those fit in.

I hate that gas is so expensive but I drive so little, doesn't really impact my decisions one iota.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 114, posted (6 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 15896 times:
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Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
The question remains is how long will they sustain those low fares as CLE's operating costs are set to skyrocket due to the large cutback in flights.

Well - maybe.

It has also been suggested in the press that Frontier has a deal with the airport.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...owering_airline_costs_will_li.html

"Several are being offered by Frontier Airlines, a discount carrier that operates at a cost per enplanement below Hopkins' average, which is skewed upward by United and its concourse-related rental fees, Smith said."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 115, posted (6 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 15846 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 113):
And I know everyone here is all doom and gloom on CLE cost structure, as well as other airports around the country, but what I'd like to know is what % of airline spending is landing fees-- compared to fuel and labor it's got to be a nit on a gnat-

In the grand scheme of things, I agree the airport's cost structure isn't much for an airline's overall costs, especially compared to fuel and labor. However, profit margins are so thin in this business that the sale of one or two extra seats can mean the difference between profit and loss for that flight. With margins so thin, something like high airport fees may factor in to where an airline deploys its assets. Down here in PIT we've heard for years about the airport's high costs. I suspect that is why Spirit chose LBE over PIT.

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
Well - maybe.

It has also been suggested in the press that Frontier has a deal with the airport.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...owering_airline_costs_will_li.html

"Several are being offered by Frontier Airlines, a discount carrier that operates at a cost per enplanement below Hopkins' average, which is skewed upward by United and its concourse-related rental fees, Smith said."

mariner

All I gather from that is that F9's costs are then set to increase if their cost per enplanement is below CLE's average, assuming the average cost at CLE will increase. I don't see how the CLE average won't increase considering the overall loss of flights. Increased flights by other carriers, increased parking revenue, and other income such as real estate development will only go so far to offset the loss of the fees United was paying. Unless the other carriers build such a critical mass of new flights similar to what United was offering, but I don't think anyone is expecting that to happen.

F9 may indeed have a 'deal', but waived landing fees, etc only last so long. At the end of the day the airport's costs are mostly fixed yet they need to be covered by less flights and less overall passengers.



FLYi
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 116, posted (6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15811 times:
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Quoting PITrules (Reply 115):
F9 may indeed have a 'deal', but waived landing fees, etc only last so long. At the end of the day the airport's costs are mostly fixed yet they need to be covered by less flights and less overall passengers.

Sure, but - especially as a low fare airline - I very much doubt Frontier would have announced CLE as a focus city without being fully aware of what the costs of operating at he airport will be:

CLE costs have been frequently discussed in the media - I assume that applies at the airlines, too:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...leveland_hopkins_fees_to_airl.html

"Cleveland Hopkins fees to airlines among uncertainties ahead for airport, carriers

A statistic called cost per enplanement, considered an indicator of an airport's efficiency, shows that by that measure Hopkins is more expensive to carriers than airports in Indianapolis, Columbus, Akron, Detroit, Dayton, Cincinnati and both O'Hare and Midway in Chicago, according to 2012 data, the most recent available from the Federal Aviation Administration for airport-to-airport comparisons. The only airport within 350 miles with a higher cost per enplanement rate was in Pittsburgh.

There is debate about how reliable a measure it is, and recent research suggests others things should be factored in, such as the expense of taxiway delays at congested airports."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15775 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
I don't think Air Canada ever served London direct (one stop) from CLE. Yes, I am aware of the Air Canada 747 at CLE photo in the database; most likely a diversion. An extensive google news archive search reveals nothing about Air Canada service to London. One would think that service would have made the local news.

It was a scheduled seasonal flight that ran for 2 summers. I'm pretty sure I remember it operated on Thursdays and Sundays. Flight number was ACA080 inbound to CLE, and it operated LON-CLE-DTW-LON I worked at the airport then and saw it regularly......and have other photos of it.

Chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9234 posts, RR: 21
Reply 118, posted (6 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15769 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 116):
The only airport within 350 miles with a higher cost per enplanement rate was in Pittsburgh.

I hope that is something that will change...

Having said that, I'm wondering if F9 remains committed to serving CLE, perhaps the cost per enmplanement won't skyrocket as much...?



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 119, posted (6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15728 times:
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Quoting steeler83 (Reply 118):
Having said that, I'm wondering if F9 remains committed to serving CLE, perhaps the cost per enmplanement won't skyrocket as much...?

Yes, if flights are added, then I assume it helps keep overall costs down and yes, in terms of new entrants, I assume there are deals, however long they last. In terms of Frontier's commitment to CLE, then given the extraordinarily positive reaction I think something very dramatic would have to happen for that commitment to change.

But it isn't entirely out of the blue. I was aware of this summer's more than doubling of DEN-CLE two or three months before United pulled the plug, so if the costs are an issue I assume them to be manageable.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (6 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 15704 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 114):
Well - maybe.

It has also been suggested in the press that Frontier has a deal with the airport.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind...owering_airline_costs_will_li.html

"Several are being offered by Frontier Airlines, a discount carrier that operates at a cost per enplanement below Hopkins' average, which is skewed upward by United and its concourse-related rental fees, Smith said."

I'm pretty sure all that it is saying is that F9 does not have UA's extensive lease obligations and hence it has lower costs per enplanement. F9 would only has to pay for the gates it is using, unlike UA which has to pay for a number of gates which are no longer being used. Airports which receive FAA funding have limitations on their ability to offer incentives and play favorites with particular airlines. I believe if they offer an incentive, such as waived landing fees for a new route, it must be made public and available to any airline. I'm pretty sure some backroom deal with F9 waiving landing fees and gate rental fees would be a no-no as the airport receives public monies.

[Edited 2014-03-25 20:42:25]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 121, posted (6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15697 times:
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Quoting michman (Reply 120):
I'm pretty sure some backroom deal with F9 waiving landing fees and gate rental fees would be a no-no as the airport receives public monies.

Where did "back room deals" come from?

Things like waivers of landing fees are common and usually available to all airlines, and I don't even know if they have that.

All I know is what I quoted from the article - that Frontier operates with a lower cost per emplacement than United, for whatever reason. Since it is in the press, it is fairly public knowledge and not "back room."

The essential point is this - that Frontier has been operating at CLE for a while and has increased service there, so costs are presumably manageable. As such, I think this whole debate is a bit of a red herring.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-25 20:46:39]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 122, posted (6 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15673 times:

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 117):
It was a scheduled seasonal flight that ran for 2 summers. I'm pretty sure I remember it operated on Thursdays and Sundays. Flight number was ACA080 inbound to CLE, and it operated LON-CLE-DTW-LON I worked at the airport then and saw it regularly......and have other photos of it.

Do you remember the years? I collect timetables and can get to the bottom of this. With the strict Bermuda II bilateral agreement in place I don't see how a Canadian airline could possibly serve the US nonstop from London. OTOH, if you have seen it on a routine basis then I have no reason to not believe you. Perhaps it was via YYZ, or scheduled charters on behalf of a tour operator?



FLYi
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 123, posted (6 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 15633 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
The good thing about F9 is their low fares will stimulate the market for new demand. The question remains is how long will they sustain those low fares as CLE's operating costs are set to skyrocket due to the large cutback in flights.

F9's introductory fares are only for 60 days, with the last of the current offers expiring August 10, 2014. Thereafter the lowest fare each way will go from $39 to $104 at RDU, $59 to $74 at ATL, and $69 to $114 at TPA. UA's best TPA price for the same dates in August is $202, so F9 will still represent a big savings.

Presumably UA and other competing airlines will offer some number of seats at F9's price, but they haven't so far.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 15587 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 122):
scheduled charters on behalf of a tour operator?

This is exactly what it was. It was in the early 1980s. I remember back then the "Travel" section of the Cleveland Plain Dealer Sunday newspaper would run small block style ads for vacation tours to far away places and there would be some small print at the bottom of the ad stating "air provided by Air Canada", or whomever.

Back in those days this is how I knew what interesting carriers were coming into town.



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2764 posts, RR: 1
Reply 125, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 15477 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 13):
So with that said, and acknowledging some double counting involved, and further assuming nothing else changes from what we know today, I'd suggest a SWAG might be 9.1 minus 2.8 plus .325 giving CLE a 2014 pax count of 6.625 million of which about 5 million will be O&D.

This appears to be pretty well done.... I think maybe that CLE's pax numbers may be a bit higher - but that's the optimist in me, and if so, it won't be that much higher. In the meantime, using this is a good basis.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
Lets keep things in perspective. So far F9 has announced 12 cities for CLE on less than daily service, and Delta a few as well, once daily. So lets say between the two carriers CLE will gain an average 12-15 new daily flights (so far, more to follow for sure). But they still have 100 flights to lose, and United won't stop there.
Quoting PITrules (Reply 112):
The question remains is how long will they sustain those low fares as CLE's operating costs are set to skyrocket due to the large cutback in flights.
Quoting ncflyer (Reply 113):
Yeah it's a toe, but what's striking to me is how fast they did it, even with this so called skyrocketing costs.


There's a government site:

http://cats.airports.faa.gov/Reports/reports.cfm

which states CPE (Cost per Passenger Enplanements). If one were to pull the specific airport in question (here CLE) and the year (here 2012 latest year for numbers available), and then hit the button where it says View Form 127 "Screen" there should follow a report (numbers) for CLE. The important numbers on this report (for our intents and purposes here) are line 1.6, ($72,391,068) and line 16.1, (Enplanements - 4,495,353), as both are calculated in line 16.5, which is the Passenger Airline CPE (line 1.6/16.1) = $16.10, and the $16.10 is the 2012 CPE for CLE, which is currently what I consider high.

Now, let's take the 6.625M pax (this isn't O&D count, it's total pax traffic at the airport) and divide that by 2 (the enplanments) and we get about 3,312,000 pax. Assuming that the $72,391,068 remains the same (although I could see them going down just a bit, but not at all that much) and now have that divided by the 3,312,000 estimated pax enplanement number, we get about $21.86 CPE now for CLE. And it appears that yes, CLE's CPE will be going up substantially unless somehow pax numbers quickly fill planes from other carriers that will substitute the lost UA flights (which we're all pretty much agreeing that won't happen) or that CLE needs to drastically cut the $72,391,068 expense figure a lot.......

One last item about this...... reducing the $73,391,068 amount to reduce CPE by $1M increments will result in a $0.30 amount decrease of the CPE, and this $0.30 remains constant at each $1M reduction. So a $4M reduction will result in a $1.20 amount CPE reduction. However, increasing pax numbers to lower CPE will result in a decreasing amount of CPE reduced, in that let's say that there is a 50K increase in pax over the 3,312,000 number to 3,362,000, the CPE will be reduced by $0.33. The second increase of 50K pax will reduce the CPE by only $0.32, so 100K pax increase will reduce the CPE by $0.65. The third 50K increase will reduce CPE by $0.31, and the fourth increase by $0.30, and the fifth by $0.29, etc. Therefore, while reducing the $73,391,068 number to decrease CPE remains constant with decrease, increasing pax numbers to decrease CPE will diminish as more pax are added. So it's best that while CLE do it's best to decrease expenses to reduce CPE, even slight increases in pax numbers initially have the biggest impact on CPE at the initial increment of increase.

There you have it....... I think that all can understand this?

 


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 126, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15417 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 125):
There you have it....... I think that all can understand this?

Thanks for your analysis. Assuming my 6.625 million pax number is correct, I'm betting your numbers are pretty close to correct. One thing, though ... Ricky Smith said the CPE is an average for all airlines and UA comes in higher than average. So it may be that the other guys save on per passenger facility rental charges.

One nice thing: in 2012 CLE refinanced a quarter of a billion in debt, presumably saving themselves at least a couple of points on interest, which would be $5 million annually. So that interest saving alone should save them about $1.50 out of the CPE in 2013. 2013 CATS numbers are due by April 30, 2014.

A second positive item: the airport expenses include $50 million (non-cash item) in depreciation. If that $50 mill is applied to 5% debt, they will save another $2.5 million annually in interest expense.

Plus UA has to continue to pay all their contractual rent, even on an empty Concourse D, keeping revenues higher than you might think. And a shuttered Concourse D will generate labor savings.

All in all, maybe Ricky Smith is entitled to be as optimisitc on airport finances as he pretends to be.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 127, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15398 times:

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 124):

This is exactly what it was. It was in the early 1980s. I remember back then the "Travel" section of the Cleveland Plain Dealer Sunday newspaper would run small block style ads for vacation tours to far away places and there would be some small print at the bottom of the ad stating "air provided by Air Canada", or whomever

Thanks; pretty cool to have an Air Canada 747 provide these flights. You mentioned you had additional pics, feel free to post those to the thread if you can as I'm sure others (myself included) would like to see them.

When I was flying cancelled bank checks in 1998 for a time there would routinely be an American International Airways 747 parked overnight at one of the south side B gates. I believe these were charters to Orlando, and most likely the last regular 747 service to CLE.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Norman Walesch




FLYi
User currently offlinesteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9234 posts, RR: 21
Reply 128, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 15376 times:

Man, according to that pic, that's a 747-100! Those were still around in the late 1990s?!! I'll be a son of a gun...


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlinechrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 129, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15335 times:

Quoting PITrules (Reply 127):
You mentioned you had additional pics, feel free to post those to the thread if you can as I'm sure others (myself included) would like to see them.

Here's a couple I have on my flickr account.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6839214523/in/set-72157627827713790

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6814803435/in/set-72157627827713790



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlineatlaaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 130, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15346 times:

I recently flew UA on CLE-DEN and then ORD-CLE and both flights were basically 100% full. Of course those are both destinations that are not going to be cut. The CLE-DEN was on a 737 and the ORD-CLE was on ExpressJet.

User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15268 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 121):
Where did "back room deals" come from?

Things like waivers of landing fees are common and usually available to all airlines, and I don't even know if they have that.

All I know is what I quoted from the article - that Frontier operates with a lower cost per emplacement than United, for whatever reason. Since it is in the press, it is fairly public knowledge and not "back room."

The essential point is this - that Frontier has been operating at CLE for a while and has increased service there, so costs are presumably manageable. As such, I think this whole debate is a bit of a red herring.

I disagree that it is all that common and where a fee waiver in exchange for new service is in place, it is published somewhere. I have seen nothing about CLE offering fee waivers for new service. Again, they cannot play favorites and simply waive F9's fees in gratitude for the new service after the fact. The program must be open and published somewhere. You seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions simply based on a newspaper article. It seems pretty clear that UA has long term lease obligations it has to pay despite the number of pax being carried by UA going down. Obviously, that's going to drive up their cost per enplaned passenger. While F9 does not have that long term lease baggage and can utilize gates in a far more leaner and cost effective manner according to their actual passenger volume.

Airport Fee Waivers during Promotion Periods.
(1). Prohibited direct subsidies do not include waivers of fees or discounted landing or other fees
during a promotional period. However, the airport must offer any promotional fee waiver or
discount to all similarly situated users of the airport willing to provide the same type and level of
new service consistent with the promotional offering.
(2). The cost of offering discounted fees or waivers cannot be shifted to other air carriers not
participating in the promotional incentive program. When developing its rate base, the airport
may not consider in its calculations the promotional discounted fees and waivers.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 132, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15242 times:
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Quoting michman (Reply 131):
I disagree that it is all that common and where a fee waiver in exchange for new service is in place, it is published somewhere. I have seen nothing about CLE offering fee waivers for new service. Again, they cannot play favorites and simply waive F9's fees in gratitude for the new service after the fact. The program must be open and published somewhere.

I;ve never claimed that Frontier is getting any fee waivers or any incentives at CLE - I've never read anywhere that it is and I have no idea if CLE offers them, to Frontier or to anyone.

But whether CLE offers incentives or not they do happen at other airports - PIT, for example:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/re...xpand-service/stories/201401100150

"Airport Authority offering incentives for airlines to expand service

Officials at Pittsburgh International Airport are hoping they've got a deal some airlines can't refuse: Take a gamble on nonstop service to coveted cities such as San Diego, Seattle, New Orleans and Jacksonville, and see landing fees waived or marketing support increased."


I do not assume that CLE offers the same on any level.

Quote:
You seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions simply based on a newspaper article.

What other conclusions have I drawn other than the fact that Frontier operates at CLE with a lower cost per emplacement than United, which may be the extent of any deal - its contract - it has with CLE.

You want to argue the toss with the newspaper that reported it, go for it. But fi you want some names of other airports that offer incentives including landing fees, they're available. PHF and ICT for starters.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-26 19:54:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3211 posts, RR: 6
Reply 133, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15227 times:

Quoting chrisjake (Reply 129):
Here's a couple I have on my flickr account.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6839214523/in/set-72157627827713790

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jacobs_photography/6814803435/in/set-72157627827713790

Thanks for sharing; I loved the classic pics and Concorde & M.E. 747s



FLYi
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15215 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
But whether CLE offers incentives or not they do happen at other airports - PIT, for example:

Exactly, and with all the attention being paid to CLE I find it unimaginable that they would have a fee waiver program in place for new service without any mention at all in any of the newspaper articles.

Note, that it appears CLE has 4 common use gates and I would assume F9 is simply paying the going CUTE rate when using one of these gates.

[Edited 2014-03-26 20:04:53]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25405 posts, RR: 86
Reply 135, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15192 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting michman (Reply 134):
Exactly, and with all the attention being paid to CLE I find it unimaginable that they would have a fee waiver program in place for new service without any mention at all in any of the newspaper articles.

Since I have never claimed that there are fee waivers - at CLE - I really don't know why it has become such an issue.

Quoting michman (Reply 134):
Note, that it appears CLE has 4 common use gates and I would assume F9 is simply paying the going CUTE rate when using one of these gates.

That may be - I don't know. CLE is pretty much a new airport for me, my main interest is in Frontier.

I have guessed in the past - only guessed - that Frontier's use of gates is related to the international gates for the Apple/Frontier flights (which may well be common use) as part of its deal - its contract - with CLE.

But it is only a guess.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 136, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14951 times:

UA has already reduced their schedule again. Flights to ALB and BWI will also end in June.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 14926 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 136):
UA has already reduced their schedule again. Flights to ALB and BWI will also end in June.

No surprise is there? Pretending they would maintain 72 "daily" flights now that daily means maybe 3 or more a week coupled with seasonal adjustments and so on and the surprise of several of the published keep destinations and years of BS.

Happy to see UA imploding a little according to other threads citing BKK, IAD-FLL/MIA/ABQ discontinuations, scorn surrounding more outsourcing, and Smisek attacks...


User currently offlinelakeeffect From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14869 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 136):
UA has already reduced their schedule again. Flights to ALB and BWI will also end in June.
Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 98):
Oddly, it seems like United is trying out limited week frequencies to some destinations? For example, there are no UA flights to ALB from CLE tomorrow or Wednesday. Then in April CLE-ALB becomes once daily at 3:30pm. Then in May it becomes once daily at 8:23pm. Then once the official dehub begins on June 5th it becomes 2x daily, 7:30am and 12:20pm. I'm not sure what UA is trying to do with that flight, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the first discontinued destination after the dehub.

No shock at ALB. UA was operating this less than daily the past few weeks and had an erratic April and May schedule loaded. I figured they were dropping this; it didn't make sense for this to go 2x daily after the dehub. How much longer before DL pulls out the 1x daily CRJ on this? Then again, UA pretty much handed over ALB pax to DL anyway as the DTW connection makes the most sense now.

BWI isn't too surprising either, but once again this is another route where UA is going to hand over almost all of the passengers to another airline. Perhaps you'll get 1 person a day who is going to connect via UA from CLE to BWI.

It won't be too much longer before UA is only flying to hubs from CLE.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5492 posts, RR: 7
Reply 139, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14778 times:

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 138):

It won't be too much longer before UA is only flying to hubs from CLE.

And maybe not all of the hubs. The domestic schedule at Dulles are getting pruned regularly. Once Commutair shifts its base out of CLE, I could see that route biting the dust as well.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinefun2fly From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 140, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14775 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 139):

And maybe not all of the hubs. The domestic schedule at Dulles are getting pruned regularly. Once Commutair shifts its base out of CLE, I could see that route biting the dust as well.

Amazingly quick the dismantling of the CLE Hub.

Not sure of the IAD cuts due to the international traffic esp since UA had 3x when they weren't CO, but we'll see shortly! Not too far from now we could end up with:

13x ORD
6x EWR
6x IAH
4x DEN
2x LAX
2x SFO
4x IAD
4x LGA

Total: 41 Flights, 20 or so mainline.


User currently offlinemats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 633 posts, RR: 1
Reply 141, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14740 times: