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DOT Launches DCA Slot Proceeding  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25365 posts, RR: 49
Posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7867 times:

Following return of two within perimeter slots exemptions held by Republic ( Republic Returns DCA Air-21 Slots (by LAXintl Jan 24 2014 in Civil Aviation) ) formerly utilized for Frontier Airlines service to MCI, the DOT is now requesting replacement air carrier proposals.

Applicants service proposals must be to either medium hub, small hub, or nonhub airports located within 1,250 mile perimeter.

Applications are due March 25, 2014 with follow up comments due April 1st.


OST-2000-7182

[Edited 2014-03-06 08:24:37]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11348 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7831 times:

Who is allowed to bid?


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1913 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7747 times:

For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?

User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7638 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Applicants service proposals must be to either medium hub, small hub, or nonhub airports located within 1,250 mile perimeter.

I think this explains why B6 held off on announcing the use of all of its new slots (in addition to WN and VX). I see B6 trying to get one or two of these to launch PBI, RSW, JAX, SRQ, or maybe even MSY - all of which would fall under this guideline for applicability.



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25365 posts, RR: 49
Reply 4, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7603 times:

Criteria is:

(1) New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers
(2) Communities with no existing or limited nonstop air transportation to DCA
(3) Smaller communities
(4) Provide competitive nonstop air transportation on a monopoly nonstop route to DCA
or
(5) Will produce the maximum competitive benefits, including low fares



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7593 times:

I expect WN to apply with keeping it MCI, B6 with maybe PBI/JAX/SRQ or RSW and US with flights to one of the cities it drastically cut DCA service to.

Something interesting to note, WN and B6 are no longer limited carriers at DCA so that's one card none of them can play.

[Edited 2014-03-06 09:01:04]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7500 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?

If applying for a slot equates to a promise, maybe OKC should go after US/AA... with all of those slots that they have, if service to OKC was really warrented, they could easily make that happen.

I expect MCI will keep these slots just like JAN did a couple of years ago when US picked up those slots.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7091 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 6):
If applying for a slot equates to a promise, maybe OKC should go after US/AA... with all of those slots that they have, if service to OKC was really warrented, they could easily make that happen.

I would expect WN will try to keep it with MCI. US/AA should apply for OKC again, which attempted it once after WN failed the first time. Since WN just got a ton of slots, there is no reason why they really need this in perimeter slot for MCI service.

Is OKC service warranted? It's the largest in perimeter city without nonstop service to DCA (at least it was before the recent shake up), so I would say yes.  


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1212 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7062 times:
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Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged

Is that in the perimeter?? Is there any OTHER airline that could use it?? How do you know they reneged? could it Be they didn't have the wherewithall TO keep the promise?? DCA slots aren't all that easy to GET in the firstplace and WN might have been overly optimistic, Y'think??


User currently onlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7022 times:

I know it was mentioned but I will go in a little more depth. Another possibility for WN is to apply for OKC if they think they won't win with MCI. They have the slots for MCI so why not try for somewhere that is more likely to win? For WN's application, I think it's between OKC and MCI and it's really a toss up which they pick. If they want a better chance of being awarded the slot, OKC is definitely the way to go though.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?
WN never reneged. They never even promised anything. They applied for an AIR21 Slot to OKC and lost, the next time a slot was available, they chose somewhere else. With that, I would love for WN to apply for OKC and it would be rather likely that they get it, if they apply for it.

[Edited 2014-03-06 16:27:11]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6934 times:

The interesting thing now is that WN will no longer be classified as a limited incumbent. That doesn't mean they can't win, but it does make it harder depending on who else applies. For example, prior to the slot purchase, I think WN would have been a shoe-in to win this slot, but now it's not so automatic.

User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2911 posts, RR: 30
Reply 11, posted (6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6870 times:

Thanks as always, LAXIntl, for watching for this stuff and posting the interesting items.

On a somewhat related note, Republic received official approval on the two DCA slot pairs they chose to keep (for OMA and MSN).

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0086-0011

This isn't exactly a surprise -- Republic has been operating them since 2/1. But what this link does is clarify something that gets dredged up every now.

These slots are *not* Air 21 special award slots. What's special about them is many years back when Midwest Express acquired the slots, they requested and received permission to use them in a different time. That's what the "slide" means. For example, slot #1027 is designated for an operation in the 2100 hour but has been "slid" to allow operation in the 1100 hour.

This approval specifically designates the specific slot numbers, where they are slid to, and what market. If they do not choose to follow this, the slots are still theirs and can still be used but revert to their original times.

This is what I thought the "slot slides" were about -- different than Air 21 award slots like DCA-MCI -- but didn't have anything handy to prove or clarify. This does that pretty nicely.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6802 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
US/AA should apply for OKC again, which attempted it once after WN failed the first time.

I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

[Edited 2014-03-06 17:56:22]

User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6790 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 8):
Is that in the perimeter?? Is there any OTHER airline that could use it?? How do you know they reneged? could it Be they didn't have the wherewithall TO keep the promise?? DCA slots aren't all that easy to GET in the firstplace and WN might have been overly optimistic, Y'think??
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 9):
WN never reneged. They never even promised anything. They applied for an AIR21 Slot to OKC and lost, the next time a slot was available, they chose somewhere else. With that, I would love for WN to apply for OKC and it would be rather likely that they get it, if they apply for it.

Yeah I have to agree, WN didn't renege on it, they just never really put in the PR stunt/campaign that they did with the slots for AUS and HOU. They went all out with write in campaigns, special websites, etc. OKC, in my opinion, was a setup against the JAN slot that they knew they weren't going to get...but it was their best shot. Then they probably figured, "well next time we'll look more favorable after just losing" and then got the HOU (or was it AUS at the time?) slot.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 9):
I know it was mentioned but I will go in a little more depth. Another possibility for WN is to apply for OKC if they think they won't win with MCI. They have the slots for MCI so why not try for somewhere that is more likely to win? For WN's application, I think it's between OKC and MCI and it's really a toss up which they pick. If they want a better chance of being awarded the slot, OKC is definitely the way to go though.

Probably a good gamble. The slots are there for MCI, why not go for OKC to get another. There has to be something there or US wouldn't have applied for it as well after WN did.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
The interesting thing now is that WN will no longer be classified as a limited incumbent. That doesn't mean they can't win, but it does make it harder depending on who else applies. For example, prior to the slot purchase, I think WN would have been a shoe-in to win this slot, but now it's not so automatic.

Agree, but US did win the JAN slot. So who knows.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5577 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

By "two within perimeter slots" does that refer to one or two slot pairs?

If its one then AA probably aren't interested unless they apply to relaunch somewhere like MYR or VPS. If its two slots pairs then they might apply to re-launch service to a small community that they cut, and then get their lobbyists on the job!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6731 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
By "two within perimeter slots" does that refer to one or two slot pairs?

1 pair meaning 1 take off / 1 landing

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6663 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

I don't think OKC is sexy enough yet for VX. It would be awesome to see them here and get some additional competition, but probably not likely. F9 would be an interesting choice and seeing how they are starting to grow other markets, like STL, with point to point service I've wondered if we could see more from OKC finally. Growth is pretty flat at the moment overall at the airport and fares are fairly high. Several markets they could come in with limited schedules and do quite well. The DEN service has really improved over the last couple of years.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
If its one then AA probably aren't interested unless they apply to relaunch somewhere like MYR or VPS. If its two slots pairs then they might apply to re-launch service to a small community that they cut, and then get their lobbyists on the job!

I think AA/US wouldn't be shy from trying the OKC application again. Huge AA flyer base that could really play into their expansion plans as the dots get connected.


User currently onlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

A lot of this is very unlikely. VX has its eyes on DAL and it probably has a long list of cities it would like to add before OKC. F9 has shown no interest in DCA besides its DEN exemptions. At the same time, it is a "New" Frontier so we will have to see. SY is the probably the most likely of the 3 you mention, the only thing is MSP wouldn't win and they already serve Lansing from DCA.

[Edited 2014-03-06 18:57:27]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

The DOJ wants to see as little, limited service interuptions as possible. If they were to take the slot from WN and give it to another carrier, who else serves MCI from DCA ? DL was awarded the JAN slot and was in the same position as WN is right now and they are the 2nd largest carrier at DCA.

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25253 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5503 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA.

If Frontier applied for anything (and I don't know that it will), I'd like to see it as 1 slot pair for DCA-UST.

T'ain't gunna happen, but it would stir the pot up a bit.  

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-07 12:01:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (6 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4911 times:

WN will pursue to keep MCI-DCA and will be starting up another website/petition drive to keep it.

DOT didn't take the JAN-DCA slots away from US, who operated it temporarily after DL abandoned it, so I would doubt they'll take them away from WN.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

Hey look...another petition site...

http://www.kctodc.com/


User currently onlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 days ago) and read 4412 times:

People Express has applied for split seasonal service to MYR and PBI operated by Vision Airlines.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf89/953.pdf

I don't see this happening considering they haven't even gotten off the ground yet plus they don't have the lobbying power the larger airlines have. Plus, they say DCA-MYR is a monopoly, well so is DCA-MCI without Southwest (just AA/US).

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 21):

Hey look...another petition site...

http://www.kctodc.com/

Signed.

Surprised they aren't doing this for the gates at DAL too.

[Edited 2014-03-18 14:19:05]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently onlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1394 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Southwest has officially applied for DCA-MCI-OAK
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/2.pdf

JetBlue has officially applied for DCA-JAX.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/3.pdf



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinecessna53996 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 23):
JetBlue has officially applied for DCA-JAX.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/3.pdf
After reading the B6 and WN proposals I have to say that B6 provides more facts and shows how it's lowered fares in DCA as well as providing facts on how they have replaced the "Southwest Effect".

It will certainly be interesting to see even more growth for there two airlines. I would think that B6 wants to get more than 4 gates in the centre pier that they're moving into as they will have 30 daily flights plus this possible extra 1. They ideally need 5 gates.

[Edited 2014-03-25 18:31:12]


Feeling a little blue in ORH, JetBlue.
25 airliner371 : This is going to be just like when US applied for DCA-JAN. WN's application for OKC and F9's for SDF were both good applications (better than B6's and
26 jfklganyc : Remember B6 announcing ALB last week with very powerful Senator Chuck Schumer? Remember how there was a discussion on why B6 would announce ALB over 1
27 jetbluefan1 : It's interesting to see the difference in the depth and detail of the data and analysis between the WN and B6 applications. I agree that B6's proposa
28 airliner371 : I find it interesting, unless it hash't been uploaded online yet that this is the first time in many slot proceedings that US/AA will not by apply for
29 Post contains links GentFromAlaska : With the FAA having a significant training center in OKC; I think DCA-OKC would be a shoo-in if a carrier were to apply for it. The FAA training cente
30 usflyguy : You do realize that both WN and US have put in applications for DCA-OKC in the last two slot proceedings and did not get the slots, correct?
31 ouboy79 : IMO they were throw away applications. OKC will only get the service if brand new slots that aren't already tied to a market are created. The first a
32 cessna53996 : There's five daily flights into MCI, too with 4x US Express and 1x WN. I agree with the point that if WN applied for OKC, they'd probably get it.
33 Byrdluvs747 : Given that criteria #1 excludes AA, this leaves B6, VX, or WN. Therefore it would seem that criteria #1 cancels out criteria #3 as those airlines are
34 Post contains links airliner371 : America has applied for DCA-ISP. http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/4.pdf
35 usflyguy : Sorry jfklganyc, but I think I know which application Schumer would back... (edited) Wait... so American is applying for these slots contending that
36 ScottB : The criteria are all generally more or less equal, so an application which satisfies a larger number of criteria is more likely to be successful. Dep
37 ouboy79 : Wow...that's crazy. Seems like they just took a dart to pick what city to apply for.
38 Post contains images airliner371 : In my opinion, of the 4 applications, it's really between WN and AA. They have the best arguments.
39 AADFWFlyer : From what I have read, both WN and B6 are incumbents, and not limited incumbents - based on the slot divestiture - but as all things seemingly until
40 Mah4546 : Huh? It already flies DCA-ISP. It's trying to continue flying it.
41 SANFan : WN used this approach back in 2012 during the last Beyond-Perimeter hearing -- applying for nonstop DCA-AUS with a tag-on to SAN. And it worked that
42 ouboy79 : So they can't move an existing slot over to cover it? They chose to abandon the market, but now all of a sudden it is important to them? Why save ISP
43 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Not really, they probably chose the route that was the best performer out of the ones they're cutting. I take it you missed the part where US have ju
44 usflyguy : Yet, they've been able to add frequencies in other markets...
45 Surfandsnow : If US was able to get a slot for DCA-JAN in spite of their massive DCA slot pool, I would be very, very surprised if the powers that be didn't give WN
46 Post contains images ouboy79 : Holy cow, really? Wow thanks for tell me. Exactly. I really can't see WN not winning this slot on a permanent basis. DCA-JAN was a very good example.
47 Post contains links airliner371 : Comments were due today, B6's http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/87.pdf and AA's http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/86.pdf have been loaded online already.
48 AADFWFlyer : Very compelling case put forth by AA - for the ISP continuation as a small market - compared to JAX and MCI - think that AA will get this favorably a
49 wnflyguy : I have to agree I can see AA being the winner on this Slot. As for both WN and B6 I see them both using unused slots to keep or add service to their
50 flyiguy : I'll be shocked if AA gets this. Holding 56% of the total slots at DCA and they chose to cut service to ISP to begin with. If I were on that DOJ board
51 MesaFlyGuy : As much as I want to see my home airport retain it's DCA service, I have to agree with you there. Though I'm not in the industry at the moment so I d
52 flyiguy : They cut service to MCO, an over saturated market with multiple carriers and multiple flights from each of those carriers. The MCI flight is a bit di
53 jfklganyc : You guys don't understand how this game works then...or you haven't been watching the highlights as of late. No way AA gets this slot. Especially sinc
54 AADFWFlyer : With the clueless nature of the DOJ to the airline industry, will be interesting to see how this pans out - as there are many articles out there that
55 Post contains links airliner371 : Here is Southwest's Application. http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/91.pdf In my opinion, it's between AA and WN.
56 Polot : This has nothing to do with the DOJ. The DOT makes the decision.
57 AADFWFlyer : Thanks for the correction, my typo indeed - meant DOT - either way - not too convinced that the DOT has any more clue on such things, as does the DOJ
58 Post contains links airliner371 : So... Schumer is supporting AA's application. http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/101.pdf
59 jetbluefan1 : So there goes the theory that B6's introduction of ALB service had anything to do with DCA...
60 jfklganyc : I'm blown away. Either an audible by AA that caught B6 by surprise, or B6 got jetblued! haha Interesting times.
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