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DOT Launches DCA Slot Proceeding  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26152 posts, RR: 50
Posted (9 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8001 times:

Following return of two within perimeter slots exemptions held by Republic ( Republic Returns DCA Air-21 Slots (by LAXintl Jan 24 2014 in Civil Aviation) ) formerly utilized for Frontier Airlines service to MCI, the DOT is now requesting replacement air carrier proposals.

Applicants service proposals must be to either medium hub, small hub, or nonhub airports located within 1,250 mile perimeter.

Applications are due March 25, 2014 with follow up comments due April 1st.


OST-2000-7182

[Edited 2014-03-06 08:24:37]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11575 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7965 times:

Who is allowed to bid?


Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1982 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7881 times:

For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?

User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3019 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7772 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Applicants service proposals must be to either medium hub, small hub, or nonhub airports located within 1,250 mile perimeter.

I think this explains why B6 held off on announcing the use of all of its new slots (in addition to WN and VX). I see B6 trying to get one or two of these to launch PBI, RSW, JAX, SRQ, or maybe even MSY - all of which would fall under this guideline for applicability.



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26152 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7737 times:

Criteria is:

(1) New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers
(2) Communities with no existing or limited nonstop air transportation to DCA
(3) Smaller communities
(4) Provide competitive nonstop air transportation on a monopoly nonstop route to DCA
or
(5) Will produce the maximum competitive benefits, including low fares



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7727 times:

I expect WN to apply with keeping it MCI, B6 with maybe PBI/JAX/SRQ or RSW and US with flights to one of the cities it drastically cut DCA service to.

Something interesting to note, WN and B6 are no longer limited carriers at DCA so that's one card none of them can play.

[Edited 2014-03-06 09:01:04]


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7634 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?

If applying for a slot equates to a promise, maybe OKC should go after US/AA... with all of those slots that they have, if service to OKC was really warrented, they could easily make that happen.

I expect MCI will keep these slots just like JAN did a couple of years ago when US picked up those slots.



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7225 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 6):
If applying for a slot equates to a promise, maybe OKC should go after US/AA... with all of those slots that they have, if service to OKC was really warrented, they could easily make that happen.

I would expect WN will try to keep it with MCI. US/AA should apply for OKC again, which attempted it once after WN failed the first time. Since WN just got a ton of slots, there is no reason why they really need this in perimeter slot for MCI service.

Is OKC service warranted? It's the largest in perimeter city without nonstop service to DCA (at least it was before the recent shake up), so I would say yes.  


User currently offlinestrfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 1414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7196 times:
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Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
For the love of God, can we FINALLY get the OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged

Is that in the perimeter?? Is there any OTHER airline that could use it?? How do you know they reneged? could it Be they didn't have the wherewithall TO keep the promise?? DCA slots aren't all that easy to GET in the firstplace and WN might have been overly optimistic, Y'think??


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7156 times:

I know it was mentioned but I will go in a little more depth. Another possibility for WN is to apply for OKC if they think they won't win with MCI. They have the slots for MCI so why not try for somewhere that is more likely to win? For WN's application, I think it's between OKC and MCI and it's really a toss up which they pick. If they want a better chance of being awarded the slot, OKC is definitely the way to go though.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 2):
OKC route that WN promised us a few year ago then reneged?
WN never reneged. They never even promised anything. They applied for an AIR21 Slot to OKC and lost, the next time a slot was available, they chose somewhere else. With that, I would love for WN to apply for OKC and it would be rather likely that they get it, if they apply for it.

[Edited 2014-03-06 16:27:11]


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

The interesting thing now is that WN will no longer be classified as a limited incumbent. That doesn't mean they can't win, but it does make it harder depending on who else applies. For example, prior to the slot purchase, I think WN would have been a shoe-in to win this slot, but now it's not so automatic.

User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7004 times:

Thanks as always, LAXIntl, for watching for this stuff and posting the interesting items.

On a somewhat related note, Republic received official approval on the two DCA slot pairs they chose to keep (for OMA and MSN).

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2013-0086-0011

This isn't exactly a surprise -- Republic has been operating them since 2/1. But what this link does is clarify something that gets dredged up every now.

These slots are *not* Air 21 special award slots. What's special about them is many years back when Midwest Express acquired the slots, they requested and received permission to use them in a different time. That's what the "slide" means. For example, slot #1027 is designated for an operation in the 2100 hour but has been "slid" to allow operation in the 1100 hour.

This approval specifically designates the specific slot numbers, where they are slid to, and what market. If they do not choose to follow this, the slots are still theirs and can still be used but revert to their original times.

This is what I thought the "slot slides" were about -- different than Air 21 award slots like DCA-MCI -- but didn't have anything handy to prove or clarify. This does that pretty nicely.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined exactly 5 years ago today! , 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6936 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 7):
US/AA should apply for OKC again, which attempted it once after WN failed the first time.

I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

[Edited 2014-03-06 17:56:22]

User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6924 times:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 8):
Is that in the perimeter?? Is there any OTHER airline that could use it?? How do you know they reneged? could it Be they didn't have the wherewithall TO keep the promise?? DCA slots aren't all that easy to GET in the firstplace and WN might have been overly optimistic, Y'think??
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 9):
WN never reneged. They never even promised anything. They applied for an AIR21 Slot to OKC and lost, the next time a slot was available, they chose somewhere else. With that, I would love for WN to apply for OKC and it would be rather likely that they get it, if they apply for it.

Yeah I have to agree, WN didn't renege on it, they just never really put in the PR stunt/campaign that they did with the slots for AUS and HOU. They went all out with write in campaigns, special websites, etc. OKC, in my opinion, was a setup against the JAN slot that they knew they weren't going to get...but it was their best shot. Then they probably figured, "well next time we'll look more favorable after just losing" and then got the HOU (or was it AUS at the time?) slot.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 9):
I know it was mentioned but I will go in a little more depth. Another possibility for WN is to apply for OKC if they think they won't win with MCI. They have the slots for MCI so why not try for somewhere that is more likely to win? For WN's application, I think it's between OKC and MCI and it's really a toss up which they pick. If they want a better chance of being awarded the slot, OKC is definitely the way to go though.

Probably a good gamble. The slots are there for MCI, why not go for OKC to get another. There has to be something there or US wouldn't have applied for it as well after WN did.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
The interesting thing now is that WN will no longer be classified as a limited incumbent. That doesn't mean they can't win, but it does make it harder depending on who else applies. For example, prior to the slot purchase, I think WN would have been a shoe-in to win this slot, but now it's not so automatic.

Agree, but US did win the JAN slot. So who knows.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5945 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6910 times:

By "two within perimeter slots" does that refer to one or two slot pairs?

If its one then AA probably aren't interested unless they apply to relaunch somewhere like MYR or VPS. If its two slots pairs then they might apply to re-launch service to a small community that they cut, and then get their lobbyists on the job!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6865 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
By "two within perimeter slots" does that refer to one or two slot pairs?

1 pair meaning 1 take off / 1 landing

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6797 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

I don't think OKC is sexy enough yet for VX. It would be awesome to see them here and get some additional competition, but probably not likely. F9 would be an interesting choice and seeing how they are starting to grow other markets, like STL, with point to point service I've wondered if we could see more from OKC finally. Growth is pretty flat at the moment overall at the airport and fares are fairly high. Several markets they could come in with limited schedules and do quite well. The DEN service has really improved over the last couple of years.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 14):
If its one then AA probably aren't interested unless they apply to relaunch somewhere like MYR or VPS. If its two slots pairs then they might apply to re-launch service to a small community that they cut, and then get their lobbyists on the job!

I think AA/US wouldn't be shy from trying the OKC application again. Huge AA flyer base that could really play into their expansion plans as the dots get connected.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 6796 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
I wonder if VX would consider it. It has the limited incumbent status still working for it and it's probably up for a greater DCA presence. It could offer OKC-DCA/LGA/LAX and maybe SFO. OKC is a growing region like DAL.

F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA. It could offer something similar (although no F class but likely even lower fares in Y), although I think VX would likely desire it more. Since NK moved up to BWI, it's likely not enough to justify minimal DCA service again. SY is in DCA is limited incumbent but I'm not sure what city it would have in mind.

A lot of this is very unlikely. VX has its eyes on DAL and it probably has a long list of cities it would like to add before OKC. F9 has shown no interest in DCA besides its DEN exemptions. At the same time, it is a "New" Frontier so we will have to see. SY is the probably the most likely of the 3 you mention, the only thing is MSP wouldn't win and they already serve Lansing from DCA.

[Edited 2014-03-06 18:57:27]


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5672 times:

The DOJ wants to see as little, limited service interuptions as possible. If they were to take the slot from WN and give it to another carrier, who else serves MCI from DCA ? DL was awarded the JAN slot and was in the same position as WN is right now and they are the 2nd largest carrier at DCA.

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5637 times:
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Quoting Flytravel (Reply 12):
F9 owned by Indigo also is still limited incumbent and it's in both OKC and DCA.

If Frontier applied for anything (and I don't know that it will), I'd like to see it as 1 slot pair for DCA-UST.

T'ain't gunna happen, but it would stir the pot up a bit.  

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-07 12:01:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

WN will pursue to keep MCI-DCA and will be starting up another website/petition drive to keep it.

DOT didn't take the JAN-DCA slots away from US, who operated it temporarily after DL abandoned it, so I would doubt they'll take them away from WN.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4701 times:

Hey look...another petition site...

http://www.kctodc.com/


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4546 times:

People Express has applied for split seasonal service to MYR and PBI operated by Vision Airlines.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf89/953.pdf

I don't see this happening considering they haven't even gotten off the ground yet plus they don't have the lobbying power the larger airlines have. Plus, they say DCA-MYR is a monopoly, well so is DCA-MCI without Southwest (just AA/US).

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 21):

Hey look...another petition site...

http://www.kctodc.com/

Signed.

Surprised they aren't doing this for the gates at DAL too.

[Edited 2014-03-18 14:19:05]


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

Southwest has officially applied for DCA-MCI-OAK
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/2.pdf

JetBlue has officially applied for DCA-JAX.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/3.pdf



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlinecessna53996 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 23):
JetBlue has officially applied for DCA-JAX.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/3.pdf
After reading the B6 and WN proposals I have to say that B6 provides more facts and shows how it's lowered fares in DCA as well as providing facts on how they have replaced the "Southwest Effect".

It will certainly be interesting to see even more growth for there two airlines. I would think that B6 wants to get more than 4 gates in the centre pier that they're moving into as they will have 30 daily flights plus this possible extra 1. They ideally need 5 gates.

[Edited 2014-03-25 18:31:12]


Feeling a little blue in ORH, JetBlue.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4122 times:

This is going to be just like when US applied for DCA-JAN. WN's application for OKC and F9's for SDF were both good applications (better than B6's and PeoplExpress' today) but US was operating pendente lite service and won because it would hurt to stop the route more than other proposed new services. While the DOT may not use Pendete Lite service as a reason, they will very likely let WN keep the slots because it would hurt to remove it.

Quoting cessna53996 (Reply 24):
I would think that B6 wants to get more than 4 gates in the centre pier that they're moving into as they will have 30 daily flights plus this possible extra 1.

7.5 flights per gate (avg.) is very good for a gate (due to lack of gates) and slot restricted airport. They do not need anymore gates nor will they get any, due to the fact that there simply aren't enough.



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (9 months 2 days ago) and read 4072 times:

Remember B6 announcing ALB last week with very powerful Senator Chuck Schumer?

Remember how there was a discussion on why B6 would announce ALB over 1 year out without any flight schedule or cities to be served announced?

Remember when I said that there was a political reason for this?

Watch this unfold...


User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3019 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

Quoting cessna53996 (Reply 24):
After reading the B6 and WN proposals I have to say that B6 provides more facts and shows how it's lowered fares in DCA as well as providing facts on how they have replaced the "Southwest Effect".

It's interesting to see the difference in the depth and detail of the data and analysis between the WN and B6 applications. I agree that B6's proposal is more convincing, and that MIT study definitely carries some weight. I think DCA-JAX would be a productive use of the slot which provides tangible benefits to the community, and likely will be very profitable for B6.

However:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 25):
While the DOT may not use Pendete Lite service as a reason, they will very likely let WN keep the slots because it would hurt to remove it.

This is the strongest argument for WN.

But as has been pointed out, maybe B6 knows this, hence:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Remember how there was a discussion on why B6 would announce ALB over 1 year out without any flight schedule or cities to be served announced?

My only question would be - what kind of pull does a NY senator have with the DOT? Obviously Schumer got B6 a great deal with slots at JFK, but that's in his home state and JFK was an underutilized asset. DCA, on the other hand, is extremely coveted and there are likely interests in Kansas City which are advocating for WN.

Also, I think it's a strategic mistake for B6 to propose this service with a 190 vs WN's larger 737's.



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4034 times:

I find it interesting, unless it hash't been uploaded online yet that this is the first time in many slot proceedings that US/AA will not by apply for slots.


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 29, posted (9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

With the FAA having a significant training center in OKC; I think DCA-OKC would be a shoo-in if a carrier were to apply for it. The FAA training center teaches students from all federal agencies. UA currently has the FY-14 city pair at $175.00 each way which expires September 30, 2014. http://cpsearch.fas.gsa.gov/cpsearch...950191A0829CED02.node1?method=list


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 29):
With the FAA having a significant training center in OKC; I think DCA-OKC would be a shoo-in if a carrier were to apply for it. The FAA training center teaches students from all federal agencies. UA currently has the FY-14 city pair at $175.00 each way which expires September 30, 2014. http://cpsearch.fas.gsa.gov/cpsearch...950191A0829CED02.node1?method=list

You do realize that both WN and US have put in applications for DCA-OKC in the last two slot proceedings and did not get the slots, correct?



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 31, posted (9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 30):
You do realize that both WN and US have put in applications for DCA-OKC in the last two slot proceedings and did not get the slots, correct?

IMO they were throw away applications. OKC will only get the service if brand new slots that aren't already tied to a market are created. The first attempt when WN applied was against the DCA-JAN application with US. Like this case, the existing market will probably get to retain the service. The second time by US was against WN applying for HOU. WN unleashed a huge grass roots effort, something they never did for OKC, and got the slot easily. US at that time was sitting on a ton of slots and really didn't need it.

If WN applied for OKC this go around instead of MCI (and instead choosing to use a slot from the set purchased) I feel they would easily beat B6. There are already 5 nonstop flights in the JAX market.


User currently offlinecessna53996 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3735 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 31):
If WN applied for OKC this go around instead of MCI (and instead choosing to use a slot from the set purchased) I feel they would easily beat B6. There are already 5 nonstop flights in the JAX market.

There's five daily flights into MCI, too with 4x US Express and 1x WN.

I agree with the point that if WN applied for OKC, they'd probably get it.



Feeling a little blue in ORH, JetBlue.
User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2468 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3602 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Criteria is:

(1) New entrant air carriers or limited incumbent air carriers
(2) Communities with no existing or limited nonstop air transportation to DCA
(3) Smaller communities
.
.

Given that criteria #1 excludes AA, this leaves B6, VX, or WN. Therefore it would seem that criteria #1 cancels out criteria #3 as those airlines are not going to service cities that can't support mainline flights. Am I reading this correctly?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

America has applied for DCA-ISP.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/4.pdf



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Remember B6 announcing ALB last week with very powerful Senator Chuck Schumer?

Remember how there was a discussion on why B6 would announce ALB over 1 year out without any flight schedule or cities to be served announced?

Remember when I said that there was a political reason for this?

Watch this unfold...
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 34):
America has applied for DCA-ISP.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/4.pdf

Sorry jfklganyc, but I think I know which application Schumer would back...

(edited)
Wait... so American is applying for these slots contending that they need them to maintain service that they already have from DCA-ISP. Are the other DCA-ISP flights Air 21 slots or are they trying to gain a new Air 21 slot so they can restore one of their slots they had to give up in the antitrust proceeding? WTH?

[Edited 2014-03-26 07:40:22]


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 36, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 33):
Given that criteria #1 excludes AA, this leaves B6, VX, or WN. Therefore it would seem that criteria #1 cancels out criteria #3 as those airlines are not going to service cities that can't support mainline flights. Am I reading this correctly?

The criteria are all generally more or less equal, so an application which satisfies a larger number of criteria is more likely to be successful. Depending on whether DOT considers the status quo, where B6 & WN are limited incumbents for a few more months, or the results of the slot auction, after which B6 & WN are no longer limited incumbents at DCA, #1 may or may not exclude B6 & WN at this point. WN is likely to be the second-largest carrier at DCA in 2015.

Quoting cessna53996 (Reply 24):
After reading the B6 and WN proposals I have to say that B6 provides more facts and shows how it's lowered fares in DCA as well as providing facts on how they have replaced the "Southwest Effect".

Unfortunately, JAX is already better-served than MCI with approximately 350 daily seats each way on US, while MCI would only have about 200 daily seats each way without WN in the market. And WN will also use a larger aircraft, with a 73G vs. an E190. These two factors favor WN, as does the fact that the service would be taken away from MCI in order to give it to JAX; as we saw with the slots used for JAN-DCA, US was able to retain those up against WN's application for OKC-DCA.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 37, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 34):

America has applied for DCA-ISP.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/4.pdf

Wow...that's crazy. Seems like they just took a dart to pick what city to apply for.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 38, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

In my opinion, of the 4 applications, it's really between WN and AA. They have the best arguments.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 37):

  



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3307 times:
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Quoting ScottB (Reply 36):

From what I have read, both WN and B6 are incumbents, and not limited incumbents - based on the slot divestiture - but as all things seemingly until the dust settles, different opinions from different sources. I think that both B6 and WN are incumbents - IMHO. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 40, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 37):
Wow...that's crazy. Seems like they just took a dart to pick what city to apply for.

Huh? It already flies DCA-ISP. It's trying to continue flying it.



a.
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5604 posts, RR: 12
Reply 41, posted (9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 23):
Southwest has officially applied for DCA-MCI-OAK.

WN used this approach back in 2012 during the last Beyond-Perimeter hearing -- applying for nonstop DCA-AUS with a tag-on to SAN.

And it worked that time (they got the route) and WN is still offering the direct flight from DCA thru to SAN. If the strategy worked once, it certainly could work this time as well.

bb


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 42, posted (9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 40):
Huh? It already flies DCA-ISP. It's trying to continue flying it.

So they can't move an existing slot over to cover it? They chose to abandon the market, but now all of a sudden it is important to them? Why save ISP over LIT, PNS, SAV, MYR, TLH, or OMA? I doubt ISP was a stronger market than all of those - or any of the others dropped. It is pretty obvious US/AA dumped markets that weren't performing at the same level as other markets.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5945 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 37):
Wow...that's crazy. Seems like they just took a dart to pick what city to apply for

Not really, they probably chose the route that was the best performer out of the ones they're cutting.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
So they can't move an existing slot over to cover it?

I take it you missed the part where US have just surrendered a huge pool of slots?  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (9 months 23 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 43):
I take it you missed the part where US have just surrendered a huge pool of slots?

Yet, they've been able to add frequencies in other markets...



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently offlineSurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 45, posted (9 months 22 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

If US was able to get a slot for DCA-JAN in spite of their massive DCA slot pool, I would be very, very surprised if the powers that be didn't give WN the permanent rights for MCI-DCA service.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 46, posted (9 months 10 hours ago) and read 2635 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 43):
I take it you missed the part where US have just surrendered a huge pool of slots?

Holy cow, really? Wow thanks for tell me.  
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 44):
Yet, they've been able to add frequencies in other markets...

Exactly.  
Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 45):
If US was able to get a slot for DCA-JAN in spite of their massive DCA slot pool, I would be very, very surprised if the powers that be didn't give WN the permanent rights for MCI-DCA service.

I really can't see WN not winning this slot on a permanent basis. DCA-JAN was a very good example.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2375 times:

Comments were due today, B6's http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/87.pdf and AA's http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/86.pdf have been loaded online already. I assume WN commented and it simply isn't online yet.


"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 47):

Very compelling case put forth by AA - for the ISP continuation as a small market - compared to JAX and MCI - think that AA will get this favorably approved - IMO.


User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 592 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

Quoting AADFWFlyer (Reply 48):

I have to agree I can see AA being the winner on this Slot.
As for both WN and B6 I see them both using unused slots to keep or add service to their petition cities if AA becomes the winner.
Flyguy



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

I'll be shocked if AA gets this. Holding 56% of the total slots at DCA and they chose to cut service to ISP to begin with. If I were on that DOJ board, I would ask if they wanted it so bad, why not cut 2-3 of your 24 flights to PHL and use bigger aircraft to supplement seats. Just my honest opinion.

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently onlineMesaFlyGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 3346 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2175 times:
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Quoting flyiguy (Reply 50):

As much as I want to see my home airport retain it's DCA service, I have to agree with you there. Though I'm not in the industry at the moment so I don't know. Though , if AA doesn't get the slot I hope B6 does. If WN makes their case, it had better be a good one, as they've shown before that they can reaarange slots to get their flights in. For example, when they won the slot for a HOU flight and then cut another flight to get a second daily HOU flight in there. Similar to AA, granted on a much smaller scale.



\________(---)________/ :) World's most beautiful aircraft: 757-200, MD-88/90, E-190, A321
User currently offlineflyiguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1842 times:

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 51):
As much as I want to see my home airport retain it's DCA service, I have to agree with you there. Though I'm not in the industry at the moment so I don't know. Though , if AA doesn't get the slot I hope B6 does. If WN makes their case, it had better be a good one, as they've shown before that they can reaarange slots to get their flights in. For example, when they won the slot for a HOU flight and then cut another flight to get a second daily HOU flight in there. Similar to AA, granted on a much smaller scale.

They cut service to MCO, an over saturated market with multiple carriers and multiple flights from each of those carriers. The MCI flight is a bit different with currently only 1 airline flying the route and with only RJ service.

FLY



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

You guys don't understand how this game works then...or you haven't been watching the highlights as of late.

No way AA gets this slot.

Especially since they serve it now.
Especially since they have added frequency in other cities since they had to divest slots.
Especially since they hold (56%?) of slots at the airport.

The game is rigged to the LCCs.

This is a WN vs B6 thing. And B6 pulls it out.


User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1719 times:
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Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 53):

With the clueless nature of the DOJ to the airline industry, will be interesting to see how this pans out - as there are many articles out there that don't even represent slot proceeding correctly, and miss the point altogether. Still pulling for AA on this, but think that B6 is the favorite to gain the pair.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

Here is Southwest's Application.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/91.pdf

In my opinion, it's between AA and WN.



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently onlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

Quoting AADFWFlyer (Reply 54):
With the clueless nature of the DOJ to the airline industry, will be interesting to see how this pans out - as there are many articles out there that don't even represent slot proceeding correctly, and miss the point altogether.

This has nothing to do with the DOJ. The DOT makes the decision.


User currently offlineAADFWFlyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1299 times:
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Quoting Polot (Reply 56):

Thanks for the correction, my typo indeed - meant DOT - either way - not too convinced that the DOT has any more clue on such things, as does the DOJ - IMO.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1519 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1061 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Remember B6 announcing ALB last week with very powerful Senator Chuck Schumer?

Remember how there was a discussion on why B6 would announce ALB over 1 year out without any flight schedule or cities to be served announced?

Remember when I said that there was a political reason for this?

Watch this unfold...

So... Schumer is supporting AA's application.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/101.pdf



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlinejetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3019 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 998 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 58):
So... Schumer is supporting AA's application.
http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf90/101.pdf

So there goes the theory that B6's introduction of ALB service had anything to do with DCA...



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3627 posts, RR: 6
Reply 60, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 979 times:

I'm blown away. Either an audible by AA that caught B6 by surprise, or B6 got jetblued! haha

Interesting times.


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