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What If UA And CO Split?  
User currently offlinemolitvic20 From United States of America, joined Feb 2014, 15 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15034 times:

As a pilot, I was talking to one of my FA's about the merger with United and Continental. Rumor has it, Continental wants out.
I mean this could be true, they still have two separate contracts. Could this really happen if they wanted to, especially after investing so much time and money combining the two airlines?

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyHossD From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 981 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 15052 times:

Quoting molitvic20 (Thread starter):
Rumor has it, Continental wants out.

No way, no how. Rumors from crew members are notoriously unreliable.

It is true, though, that the sUA and sCO Inflight groups have different priorities and are far from a joint contract. How long will this last? I don't know, but I'd guess it will last until the company makes it a priority.

A couple more thoughts - how would a division be done anyway? Continental was the surviving corporation - renamed United - with Continental's Airline Operating Certificate and United's Maintenance Certificate and that's just for starters. It would be a mess to "unwind."

[Edited 2014-03-08 11:50:23]


My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14949 times:

Quoting molitvic20 (Thread starter):
Rumor has it, Continental wants out.

There is no Continental with separate ownership or management. 'Continental wants out' is a delusional fantasy of disgruntled workers or work groups.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14832 times:

What if Oklahoma splits from the US? That is probably more likely...


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinenutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 510 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14696 times:

The bottom line is that you CAN run an airline with divided labor groups.....in some ways it benefits the bottom line and it others it doesnt because you lose efficiency in routing and scheduling. That said, everyone would agree (I hope) that a unified company is the best alternative.

United will be fine, they can manage through this and they will succeed even if division exist from within.....just ask US Airways  



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14634 times:

Lots of Texans want to be a republic again but not gonna happen  

User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14597 times:

I work as a FA for sCO and I can't see this ever happening, no way. Sure the sUA and sCO FA workgroups are pretty far apart on what we want in a contract, but that doesn't mean management wants to operate two separate brands. After all the work they've put into the merger it would be nearly impossible to break it all apart now.

User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 7201 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14522 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 2):

There is no Continental with separate ownership or management. 'Continental wants out' is a delusional fantasy of disgruntled workers or work groups.

You can't unscramble eggs. United and Continental are truly well scrambled by now. And with the current climate they could not survive on their own. I have been seeing the necessity for mergers for at least a decade; I think three large carriers can survive and do well (along with WN and B6), but more than that will just result in cutthroat competition that will drive everyone into bankruptcy again. I do not know any other industry that must remain US based where EVERY major player has been through bankruptcy at least once.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14211 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
What if Oklahoma splits from the US? That is probably more likely...
Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):

Lots of Texans want to be a republic again but not gonna happen

I say, offer Florida to get out of the union before the next election ...   


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13971 times:
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This is the dumbest rumor I've heard in a while. UCH has spent billions on what has been a nightmare merger process. The nightmare was mostly self-inflicted by poor planning by management. They had examples from the DL merger to emulate but chose to do the less planning and less investing in the process the better plan. It didn't work well.

The various groups are pissed because mgt has been slow to get the joint contracts negotiated which slows integration and complicates things immensely. I'm frankly surprised the BoD or the shareholders haven't gone postal. DL has made $4 profit for every $1 made by UA. This despite UA's larger size and greater overall revenue. Given how far down the road we've come time-wise since the "merger," you can't blame anyone but management despite they will blame anything and anyone except themselves.

UA employees are right to be pissed. They've been let down.


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13970 times:

Why not expand the question to NW/DL and AA/US and WN/AirTran?

User currently offlinecharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1133 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13484 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
UA employees are right to be pissed. They've been let down

Damn right...not impressed by our partner..it's a step backwards, welcome to the 70's.


User currently offlinePacNWJet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13276 times:

While it is relatively common in the business world for large corporations to spin off business units as separate companies, this would seem rather unlikely in the airline industry or in any other industry for that matter in which a company provides one service or one product. Moreover, mergers are very common in the airline industry but I am having a hard time thinking of airlines that have split into separate corporate units with new ownership. Maybe others can think of instances where this has happened but I am having a hard time thinking of one. The closest I can think of is when airlines have created low-cost units that operate separately, but that is not what appears to have been suggested here.

User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12937 times:

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 12):
Moreover, mergers are very common in the airline industry but I am having a hard time thinking of airlines that have split into separate corporate units with new ownership. Maybe others can think of instances where this has happened but I am having a hard time thinking of one.

The only instance I can think of is when regionals create new subsidiaries to operate certain aircraft for a mainline partner, usually to get around a scope clause. Not exactly what you're talking about, but it is the closest thing I can think of.


User currently offlineTonyBurr From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1041 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12335 times:

Please CO take SMISEK with you, PLEASE, PLEASE !!!!!

User currently offlineSkyTeamTriStar From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

So many of you on this post are forgetting about "the power of the people…"

No matter how far along things are, it can be undone. It might not be an easy thing to do but it can be done.


User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11170 times:

Tail wagging the dog and the dumbest A.net thing I have ever heard. Work groups don't dictate what the BOD, stockholders and institutional investors do. The merger has merits, management has made mistakes, the only path forward for those who are not pleased are to suck it up or influence the channels that can cause change...all of this extraneous a.net whining is just noise and infantile banter that has no foundation in the reality of how businesses really run....sorry to burt all of your little arm chair airline bubbles.

User currently offlinecle757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11114 times:

Quoting n505fx (Reply 16):
Tail wagging the dog and the dumbest A.net thing I have ever heard. Work groups don't dictate what the BOD, stockholders and institutional investors do. The merger has merits, management has made mistakes, the only path forward for those who are not pleased are to suck it up or influence the channels that can cause change...all of this extraneous a.net whining is just noise and infantile banter that has no foundation in the reality of how businesses really run....sorry to burt all of your little arm chair airline bubbles.

Signed, Jeff Smisek



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineBoeing778X From United States of America, joined Nov 2013, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11110 times:

No one would be happier than me if that ever did happen. CO was an airline I liked...a lot.

User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2322 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10942 times:

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 18):
No one would be happier than me if that ever did happen. CO was an airline I liked...a lot.

Me too. Was very disappointed in our merger partner, very unimpressive. It will not be undone however.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3016 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10751 times:

You know, I appreciate the fact that A.net enables the discussion of hypotheticals, however unlikely they may be.

This, however, is simply inane.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10681 times:

Quoting cle757 (Reply 17):

What's the matter? Are you mad he is actually correct?



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10559 times:

Quoting molitvic20 (Thread starter):

What Continental? Continental doesn't exist. There's no separate entity to want out. As an airline pilot, it's shocking that you don't have even this basic understanding of your industry.

Quoting SkyTeamTriStar (Reply 15):

And we've reached a new level of naïveté. "Power of the people?" To breakup a merged company? Oooook...


User currently offlinen505fx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 10533 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 19):
Was very disappointed in our merger partner, very unimpressive

A lot of UA people feel the same...especially after all of the hype about how INCREDIBLE Continental was...but oh well, live and learn...and go back to paper process and living on the cheap the Texas way I guess.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13551 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 10176 times:
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Wow... undoing it at this point would result in the liquidation of *both* airlines. It is simply too late to untangle the two airlines financially. Where is the return on investment of this hypothetical situation? How would it be untangled? How would CO survive now that the brand has gone dormant so long?

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 9):
This is the dumbest rumor I've heard in a while. UCH has spent billions on what has been a nightmare merger process. The nightmare was mostly self-inflicted by poor planning by management. They had examples from the DL merger to emulate but chose to do the less planning and less investing in the process the better plan. It didn't work well.

I could only imagine how poorly the splitting process would go. I don't even know of a precedence.

And the cost... I've seriously tried to come up with a plan that wouldn't result in the liquidation of *both* units and I'm unable to. Like it or not, UA/CO must go forward as UA to survive.

Someone pro-divesting please explain how a split UA/CO would make more money than a combined airline. For a business plan would be required for a spin off. Any cut in ROI would have to be automatically rejected by the BOD.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
25 atcsundevil : If they're too incompetent to merge, then how the hell can they be competent enough to split? To echo what has been said above, I can also appreciate
26 jetmatt777 : There is no more Continental to want out. Shareholders own stock in one company, a lot of work groups are one company, executive staff is one company,
27 CALTECH : Same with Continental folks feeling that way too. United was a hollow shell of it's self. Paperless process, have never seen so much paper wasted. Te
28 n505fx : I was talking about the way CO cut corners and did things on the cheap and bought sub-par, off-the-shelf solutions, not the difference in cost of liv
29 EA CO AS : There are no people anywhere, regardless of money, power or intent, that can do what is being suggested. Anywhere.
30 UAL-Fan : Remember DaimlerChrysler? I guess the Germans decided they bought themselves a Lemon a few year in. They cast Chrysler off and now its Italian.
31 BCEaglesCO757 : I would have thought you were speaking of UA and the aircraft upkeep. what exactly did we do on the cheao and cut corners at CO ? Seems all the newer
32 BCEaglesCO757 : I agree though........dumbest thing I've ever heard. CO is no more and right now there is no going back. And yes.....CO was INCREDIBLE. Under Bethune
33 tyler81190 : You can... It has been don in other industries! The merger, along with all other airline mergers CAN be undone... By the D.O.J They did it to Bell Te
34 laca773 : It's a shame they didn't think to run each airline separately like KL-AF have done. That would have been the best idea, but that's long gone now. What
35 Caspian27 : This thread perfectly illustrates why nothing is getting done. People are so proud of living in the past rather than the now.
36 kgaiflyer : Good point. The Bell Telephone collective didn't have FAA operating certificates. The merger was gerrymandered in such a way that breaking it up woul
37 Post contains images NWAROOSTER : The Germans bought Chrysler because they wanted the Jeep brand which Chrysler got when they bought American Motors and ultimately folded American Mot
38 Polot : Bell was also a collection of different companies, so breaking it apart was much easier. UA/CO is now one airline operating under one certificate, so
39 phlwok : And, importantly, Daimler largely operated Chrysler as a subsidiary making divestiture much easier, rather then integrating it into the overall corpor
40 n505fx : IT systems, maintenance systems, off-the-shelf training...all lowest common denominator. Look at the steps back in IT infrastructure United has taken
41 nws2002 : That is not really fair. sUA did almost everything on the Apollo mainframe, meaning any system changes had to go through Travelport (and be paid for)
42 175erj : I guess to the original question... it couldn't be much worse than it is today. United seems to be going backwards. Smisek and his cronies like to tou
43 BCEaglesCO757 : Can't speak for my fellow sCO coworkers, but sometimes it's shocking. Namely because Smisek was hired by Bethune and his style is such a departure fr
44 MaverickM11 : The profitability/customer service stats are higher than probably any time in the last decade (ever?) for UA. ...which sUA was trying to bin anyway f
45 DeltaMD90 : That's like saying TWA wants to get out of AA. It would be a disaster "unmerging" them
46 SonomaFlyer : That's nice, however they've done poorly compared to their main competition (given AA was in bankruptcy) which is DL. Unfortunately for UA, DL's prof
47 vs11 : While one could conceive a way to create two new airlines out of the current United, the collective resources that would be spent on that goal could r
48 indcwby : Lots of Texans also want Continental back too.
49 MaverickM11 : No question DL is running a better airline. However, the endless paroxysms of biblical proportions over the challenges of the UA merger are not based
50 UA444 : You basically just reinforced his point. They went with SHARES due to it being cheaper. The money they saved by going to SHARES was easily lost from
51 atcsundevil : I think that's well put. By-in-large, CO was a great company with good leadership and a clear direction. The fleet and product commonality was a big
52 CALTECH : Our SCEPTRE system seems light years ahead of sUnited's UNIMATIC. On UNIMATIC to order parts, multiple screens and systems need to be accessed. SCEPT
53 tyler81190 : Exactly... if the merger didn't happen, UA would have tossed Unimatic and Apollo shortly. The difference being, BOTH UA and CO were viable airlines a
54 United787 : Can we quit all of this UA vs CO BS once and for all? Both airlines had advantages and disadvantages but they needed each other to compete with DL/NW,
55 RDH3E : DirecTV is an embarassment.
56 kgaiflyer : Oh Really! DIRECTV includes full-length movies. If full-length movies are an embarrassment, then all IFE is and embarrassment.
57 FlyHossD : That's a really good point. DL had fewer unions, so that helped. However, Smisek stated on May 3, 2010 that "Labor support is not needed for this mer
58 CALTECH : It's in our nature. Run into the rivalry and sniping almost everyday, but many are realizing that we are going to be together till we retire or leave
59 RDH3E : There are full length movies on other systems. CO only has the DirecTV because they were too cheap to pay for real IFE to be installed, thus committi
60 MaverickM11 : Too cheap as opposed to? There isn't a data point on the planet that shows that IFE, whether AVOD, PTV, overhead, or wifi, is worth the money sunk in
61 Post contains images VC10er : Maybe we would get the Tulip back! How come I fly them ALL the time and it's always a good experience - not 5 star, but fine. I do find the new (old C
62 MaverickM11 : Probably because by just about any and every metric, it is, for just about any carrier. I've flown 150K miles in the last 12 months and I can't reall
63 UA444 : DirecTV is a humongous rip-off and not worth the $8 dollars they charge for it. United before the merger had IFE on every single mainline aircraft, th
64 atcsundevil : I agree. I'm a 1K and my inflight experiences range from decent to excellent. My gripes are with the direction of the flying experience, and specific
65 RDH3E : I'm not going to make excuses, but part of the problem is that there is inflation in the dollar, something like 35% since 2000, but there had been no
66 catiii : Please...what's pathetic is that crappy 18 channel TV that DL has, plus $6 per movie. At least for my $8 on UA I get far far more content.
67 RDH3E : The WiFi on UA is going to make all the IFE obsolete anyways. Have you tried it? It's faster than most peoples home internet, no joke. You can easily
68 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Ah yes the world famous UA IFE, which you can still experience on in Y on the 744 and 3 class 763s. Better quality IFE, lighter, and less stuff that
69 catiii : Haven't tried it yet. truth be told I like not having access to my emails, etc. Gives me an excuse to decompress.
70 USAirALB : I have to say that I just flew UA for the first time since the merger. The first UA mainline leg of my trip, IAH-SFO, was operated by a sCO crew on sC
71 atcsundevil : I might be inclined to agree, except that the dollar amount for a ticket hasn't changed at the same pace with the change in the dollar. If the dollar
72 RDH3E : Exactly, so if ticket prices haven't changed, you're paying 35% less in real dollar terms. However you want to look at it, passengers are getting a l
73 727LOVER : Now is this true??? I thought UA purchased CO (officially)
74 Post contains images United1 : Mostly true....CO was the surviving company....UA is the surviving corporation. UAL Corporation issued shares to purchase CO airlines (55% was left w
75 Post contains links CALTECH : Not quite right. CO is the surviving corporation which then changed it's name to United. "On March 31, 2013, United merged with and into Continental,
76 UA444 : No, United1 is right. UAL Corporation acquired Continental Airlines, Inc, changed their name to United Continental Holdings, Inc and had two primary
77 n505fx : Ahh...not quite right again...but typical CO hubris and spin. Stock split went approx. 55% UAL stockholders 45% CAL stockholders. Additionally, UCH u
78 D L X : At this point, it's more like saying "the ORD based employed of AA want to get out of AA." If CO and UA were being operated as two separate companies
79 D L X : At this point, it's more like saying "the ORD based employed of AA want to get out of AA." If CO and UA were being operated as two separate companies
80 UA444 : You're right, United was going to replace FastAir and Apollo with a new system, Amadeus, that is used by many of their Star Alliance Partners. The di
81 ikramerica : Yes, it's the old "I want things to return to the horrible way they were before, rather than the new horrible way they are now."
82 United1 : ...and how is that any different than what I said. Continental (now United Airlines Inc.) a subsidiary of UC Holdings (aka UAL Corporation...)
83 Post contains images ua900 : Yup, CO mgmt. Lots of peeved CO front line people as well though. I didn't understand why at first since it was Jeff's place, but now I see that they
84 atcsundevil : They're still getting the same amount of miles per dollar when you include the ancillary fees, which nail every single customer at some point in time
85 Post contains images par13del : Unfortunately that includes the folks who are presently running the airline, wonder where they hang out What does labour have to do with the merger,
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