Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
MH370 - Lessons Learned, Changes In Civil Aviation  
User currently offlinetortugamon From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 3385 posts, RR: 10
Posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31531 times:

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what changes need to happen in civil aviation so that accidents like MH370 do not happen in the future, -or- if they do happen, what changes need to happen so the response is better than what we are currently witnessing. We do not know the outcome of this accident but we have plenty of information to understand where deficiencies lie. I will suggest a few:

Communication
>Black Boxes that communicate in real time with the ground giving us data on the aircraft without the physical black box
>ATC with better radios with more range and less interference allowing for easier communication with pilots
>Satellite phones
>Rules that force airlines to report aircraft missing sooner, communicate with effected next of kin sooner
>Aircraft wifi improvements

Radar / Knowing Where the Aircraft is
>GPS in the cockpit
>Better ATC Radar so missing aircraft are acknowledged sooner, vitals are more accurate, and fewer areas of poor radar coverage.
>Better radar that allows aircraft to know where they are relative to other aircraft

Security
>Airport security with better access to no-fly lists, passport information, and a oversight to make sure it is used properly

Search and Rescue
>Quicker initiation of S&R operations
>Better equipment located in the right places

Improvements to the aircraft itself outside of the cockpit may become more of topic once we know what happened but certainly can be discussed. Improvements to pilot training will inevitably be a component as well but I do not think we have enough to go on there.

Here is a solid article on some of the dated cockpit technologies:
http://english.martinvarsavsky.net/g...he-60s-a-reflection-on-mh-370.html

This is not a thread about the accident itself as there is a dedicated thread for that. This thread is about how the industry can improve from here.

tortugamon

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:22:58]

312 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31580 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what changes need to happen in civil aviation so that accidents like MH370 do not happen in the future,

Hmm... do you know what caused this crash yet?

I mean, they haven't even found the plane yet. We might actually find the plane exactly where all the information said it would likely be. This thread is probably premature.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlinekd5mdk From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31498 times:

Improvements in aircraft tracking will not prevent an aircraft from falling out of the sky, exploding or whatever else caused the crash. But knowing the location of all aircraft to within 1km or less in all 3 dimensions at all times would make a huge difference in SAR procedures.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31471 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
I mean, they haven't even found the plane yet. We might actually find the plane exactly where all the information said it would likely be. This thread is probably premature.

This, my friends, is an attitude that inhibits societal progress. You do not need to know what caused to crash to see what issues cropped up during the investigation. Clearly, there are problems with the ability to locate this aircraft.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
The purpose of this thread is to discuss what changes need to happen in civil aviation so that accidents like MH370 do not happen in the future,

One observation with many of your items is that they are de rigueur in many regions.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:33:25]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineJulian773 From Australia, joined Aug 2009, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31445 times:

This thread is probably premature.

Agreed. Right now the main focus is on locating and recovering the aircraft and passengers.


User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31358 times:

Whilst some lessons, (particularly physical changes to aircraft) are too early to call, I think it is probably fair to say that more stringent passport control is a lesson learnt.

I am all for placing microchips in people's heads. I am so sick of filling out immigration forms.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31246 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
This, my friends, is an attitude that inhibits societal progress.

Baloney.

First off, what is the rush to fix the investigatory process when it hasn't even been shown what has failed in the investigatory process yet? I'm all for speculation, but declaring items on the fix list is a whole different animal. We simply do not have any information to know what went wrong (if it even did go wrong) to address it for the future.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31201 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
We simply do not have any information to know what went wrong (if it even did go wrong) to address it for the future.

You don't have to know what went wrong in this case to have ideas about what to improve. There are plenty of recent cases (AF447, for starters, but there are many others) where the investigation has provided sufficient information that recommendations can be made.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSEA From United States of America, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31178 times:

How can you know what to change when we don't know what went wrong? This thread makes more sense months later but not now.

User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31197 times:

That is a terrible article you linked to. I'd bet my paycheck that the 777 involved had:

a)GPS
b)SATCOM and CPDLC with ADS-C


Not sure what you mean by wifi improvements, wi-fi is just a way to connect to the LAN and improving that wouldn't really do anything as there isn't any pipe to the aircraft that is higher speed than what 802.11 can already do. Better radar letting aircraft know where they are in relation to each other? What do you mean by this and what would be the point? Wouldn't TCAS suffice for now and with ADS-B coming online and CDTI will be better than any radar could be. As far as "streaming" black boxes, the amount of data that would be coming off the aircraft and the infrastructure to receive that data would be enormous, and a lot of that information would be extemporaneous to anything other than a crash investigation where as ACARS data already provides a lot of relevant information that is dual purpose.



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlinerolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1803 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31185 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 1):
Hmm... do you know what caused this crash yet?
Quoting Julian773 (Reply 4):
This thread is probably premature.

No it's not. We do know that we don't know where that aircraft is, almost 2 days after it's disappearance.

That could have been different with some forethought. Technology is pretty advanced nowadays.

That's not the first time such a thing happens - I'm thinking about that poor Air France flight that disappeared over the Atlantic.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:48:59]


rolf
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31141 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
You don't have to know what went wrong in this case to have ideas about what to improve. There are plenty of recent cases (AF447, for starters, but there are many others) where the investigation has provided sufficient information that recommendations can be made.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we don't even know how the investigation is going, where it is going right, and where it is going wrong, because we have not found the plane yet. We may be exactly on the right path to finding the plane right now, but if we were to assume that because we haven't found the plane then we've failed, we could propose changing from the plan that would eventually work to a plan that will eventually fail.

You're issuing grades before the students have completed the assignments, in other words.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineillinicmi From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31109 times:

For those who think this thread is premature, I invite you to point out the glowing successes of this search and rescue operation so far. Some of us have clearly missed them.

I don't think the investigation needs to be complete in order to discuss the problems. I'd say 48 hours with no hint of where she went is something of a problem.

No, I don't expect miracles. Just pointing out that room exists for improvement. Hence, the OP's reason for this thread.


User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31071 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
Security
>Airport security with better access to no-fly lists, passport information, and a oversight to make sure it is used properly

Interpol makes its lost/stolen passport database available to all member countries now, most just do not use it.
The three main users are the USA, UK, and UAE. Others could easily follow suit.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7497 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31074 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
This, my friends, is an attitude that inhibits societal progress. You do not need to know what caused to crash to see what issues cropped up during the investigation. Clearly, there are problems with the ability to locate this aircraft.

Rubbish.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
You don't have to know what went wrong in this case to have ideas about what to improve.

Yes, you do.

We can't know what to improve or what lessons to learn until we know what went wrong. This is putting the cart before the horse.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31071 times:

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 12):

For those who think this thread is premature, I invite you to point out the glowing successes of this search and rescue operation so far. Some of us have clearly missed them.

Then how about throwing out some feasible solutions instead of defending the thread?



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31068 times:

No, I don't think some of the ideas in the initial post are premature to consider, especially as to the passport issues and security at some airports.
As to improving tracking and transmission in real time of the status of the status of operational aircraft, there could be serious technical issues as well as costs almost all airlines are not going to be interested to spending on for very rare occurrences.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24817 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31037 times:

Quoting SEA (Reply 8):
How can you know what to change when we don't know what went wrong? This thread makes more sense months later but not now.

I agree. Best to wait until there's at least some indication of what happened. For example, one topic mentioned was improving search and rescue. We have no idea whether there's any need for improvement yet. Just because the aircraft hasn't yet been sighted doesn't mean there's a SAR problem. And many countries, especially developing countries in Asia/Africa etc. such as several on the route of this flight, don't have the resources to spend millions on a fleet of SAR aircraft and ships etc, especially for an event like this that may never happen again.


User currently offlineMarkam From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 441 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 31045 times:

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Black Boxes that communicate in real time with the ground giving us data on the aircraft without the physical black box

There is an interesting article on The Guardian about this issue: http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box


User currently offlineWeb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 30999 times:

How about a streaming gps/low jack system. It would consistently transmit the airplane location, for the sole purpose of locating aircraft, not ATC service. It would help if airplanes were lost over remote areas, or if an airplane is stolen.

Speaking of stolen planes, anyone find the AA 727 yet?

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:59:14]


Boiler Up!
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 30967 times:

Quoting illinicmi (Reply 12):
For those who think this thread is premature, I invite you to point out the glowing successes of this search and rescue operation so far.

It is not time yet to point out the successes or failures. Haste does not make science. I'll say it again, you're issuing grades before the students have completed the assignments.

This thread may make a whole lot more sense a month from now or a year from now that it does currently. You know, after you actually know where you failed. Don't believe me? I'll bow out and let this discussion unfold. Then we'll bring it back up in 3 months and a year and see what new information we find that shows where what we thought was a failure turned out not to be a failure.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 30901 times:

If you don't think the thread is a good idea, then don't post in it. It'll help the Signal:Noise ratio. As it is, you're just making things worse.

Conclusions can be drawn from previous instances. I think even if real time FDR for all data isn't feasible, they could certainly accommodate the key parameters.

We also need better radar in outlying areas.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinerolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1803 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 30898 times:

Why don't airliners have some kind of battery-operated, crash-proof, powerful transmitter attached to the FDR, which would broadcast their position, along with a special emergency code, as soon as the FDR stops receiving power, or when a high G deceleration, or any other sign of a crash is detected?

I know the FDR and (or?) CVR have some kind of (weak?) transmitter which helps locating them, and which keeps transmitting for a while, but that doesn't seem to be effective in many cases where the location of the wreck is not known.

An emergency transmitter as described would not need to transmit for a long period of time, just for long enough to get the location out there, into ADS or a similar system.

If this aircraft was equipped with ADS, why would it be so hard to find the wreckage? Same thing for AF447.

In addition to helping to find the wreckage, this would also kick off the search an rescue operations much sooner.

[Edited 2014-03-09 20:05:55]


rolf
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7580 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 30805 times:

Most of your post reads like the recommendations from BEA in the Air France 447 reports.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
Communication
>Black Boxes that communicate in real time with the ground giving us data on the aircraft without the physical black box

Not possible with current technology. However several groups / companies are working on burst transmissions under certain trigger events. And more real-time data reporting. There are of course issues with costs (up to $100K per aircraft is best guess along with data transmission costs, staffing to monitor the data, etc.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>ATC with better radios with more range and less interference allowing for easier communication with pilots

Do you know of a technology that the communications industry hasn't identified? The radios are the best possible given the coverage requirements and cost factors. Plus once an aircraft gets out of VHF range - HF is the best current technology.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Satellite phones

Satellite phones take time and effort to establish a connection. Time the pilots in an aircraft with problems don't usually have. The technology and reliability in aircraft is about equal to today's HF communication.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Rules that force airlines to report aircraft missing sooner

I haven't seen a timeline on this aircraft yet - but it appears that the airline and government authorities were very aware of the loss of communication, and reacted quickly. This was a big issue with AF447. BEA and the working groups proposed many changes to the system. So far it appears that those changes were implemented in this instance. You do realize that dozens to a few hundred aircraft lose communication or data contact with their company every day. For many technical reasons. Most of the time communication is quickly restored. Setting a much shorter alert period is going to create a false report of a missing aircraft almost every day.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
communicate with effected next of kin sooner

How would you do that? Require every airline passenger to fill out a NOK notification form for every flight. I've had some experience with NOK notifications while in the US Navy.

I'd love to hear you ideas on hour to (1) identify the NOK earlier, (2) confirming notification, (3) dealing with 'family' in multiple locations, (4) verifying that all NOK have been notified before releasing names.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Aircraft wifi improvements

How would this help anything? Other than taking power away from the other aircraft systems in an emergency, and using up bandwidth needed for wifi that would be better used to send aircraft data.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>GPS in the cockpit

Already in aircraft.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Better ATC Radar so missing aircraft are acknowledged sooner, vitals are more accurate,

There are many reasons an aircraft transponder will fail. There is sufficient data available in areas of good radar coverage.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
and fewer areas of poor radar coverage.

There really isn't a way to fix that problem in the open ocean. Or in mountainous areas like the western United States or Europe at some altitudes.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Better radar that allows aircraft to know where they are relative to other aircraft

Pilots need to be flying their aircraft, not acting as ATC for other aircraft.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Quicker initiation of S&R operations

It's a big ocean, and the authorities respond to many alerts every year which turn out to not be real emergencies. As I said above - this looks like a fairly good response - though I'll withhold judgement until I see a complete timeline.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Better equipment located in the right places

Which equipment would you fund in which places?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16993 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30753 times:

Most of these things already exist and have for years!

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Black Boxes that communicate in real time with the ground giving us data on the aircraft without the physical black box

Hideously expensive to implement and maintain for very very little benefit. Example AF447. Would this have saved anyone on board? Nope.

Besides, ADS-B already transmits position data every second.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>ATC with better radios with more range and less interference allowing for easier communication with pilots

Already in place for years with datalink.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Satellite phones

Already in place.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Rules that force airlines to report aircraft missing sooner, communicate with effected next of kin sooner

There are rules already.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Aircraft wifi improvements

I don't see how this is relevant.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>GPS in the cockpit

Already in place for years.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Better ATC Radar so missing aircraft are acknowledged sooner, vitals are more accurate, and fewer areas of poor radar coverage.

Very expensive for very little benefit. Besides, ADS-B already transmits position data every second in most areas.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Better radar that allows aircraft to know where they are relative to other aircraft

Already in place with TCAS II.

Quoting tortugamon (Thread starter):
>Airport security with better access to no-fly lists, passport information, and a oversight to make sure it is used properly

This can certainly be improved, but it will take time as it is a complex task.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 22):

Why don't airliners have some kind of battery-operated, crash-proof, powerful transmitter attached to the FDR, which would broadcast their position, along with a special emergency code, as soon as the FDR stops receiving power, or when a high G deceleration, or any other sign of a crash is detected?

Already in place today on all DFDR and CVR boxes. The problem is that if you dunk a radio even 50 meters under water, the range is cut down drastically. Stronger transmitters are possible, but that adds a lot of weight given you need a stronger battery.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 22):
If this aircraft was equipped with ADS, why would it be so hard to find the wreckage? Same thing for AF447.

Simple answer: Because the ocean is large and the plane is small.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 rolfen : What do you mean? I understand that ADS broadcasts position periodically. If you have a position and a radius, how much do you have to search? Your s
26 Starlionblue : I'll add that while it is admirable to make aviation safer, there is always a compromise. There are plenty of investments to be made in making aviatio
27 9VSIO : Now which radius are you referring to? Range of a/c at time of disappearance? That's a pretty big area...
28 apfpilot : This already exists in many aircraft however there has to be something wrong for it to broadcast. ACARS can squirt out MX data. As far as key paramet
29 Starlionblue : Quite. Assuming that the initial position is correct, a hypothetical airliner gliding from 35k feet has a range in excess of 150km. That's about 1750
30 Starlionblue : If memory serves, a poster in the big thread said it is satcom in this area.
31 apfpilot : ADS position data also contains uncompensated latency so in addition to what you mentioned before the position data is broadcast off of the airplane
32 apfpilot : Just as another example of how difficult it can be to find an aircraft a cessna crashed at BNA and wasn't found for 6 hours due to fog as it burned on
33 PHX787 : I think there should be camera links to the ground to the cockpit at all time. If this is indeed a cockpit breach, or even if its pilot error, we woul
34 MesaFlyGuy : How would they monitor that, though? They would need an unrealistic number of people to monitor every flight in the air. I suppose they could have a
35 tortugamon : I think the fact that we don't know where the plane is and what happened to it and it has been three days is enough of a problem to know that we don'
36 planemaker : Few on A.net seem to understand this very simple concept. They somehow think that no compromise exists. Even when the compromise is pointed out they
37 rfields5421 : The problem is the radius from the last know position is never a constant, it can vary quite a bit. AF447 did a 270 degree descending turn and actual
38 apfpilot : That simply isn't true though. Pilots can get weather data sent up to them PRN from the ground. Airlines have policies and procedures to use electron
39 apfpilot : i.e. something as simple as car seats being mandated for infants.
40 Starlionblue : Imagine the cost of this technology. Economically indefensible with current technology. Besides, how would it save lives? The pax could get the same
41 rfields5421 : No - the airline was penalized for not following the FAA requirement for providing support and assistance. There is a program and a standard in place
42 zeke : Way too early for this thread, you are asking people to speculate on nothing factual.
43 D L X : No, I'm really not. But I would point out that you haven't addressed any of my arguments. The fact that it has been two (not three) days is of very l
44 Mir : Cost-prohibitive at the moment. We're to the point where maintenance messages are economically viable, but the amount of data that current FDRs recor
45 jpheym : The per-aircraft initial and maintenance costs should be the same order of magnitude of installing or maintaining an aircraft GPS receiver. Iridium m
46 Starlionblue : How? Again, how would this analysis of errors be done? Errors that bring down planes tend to be very complex affairs. In any case I really don't thin
47 Mir : You're being very optimistic about the ability for someone on the ground to look at some data and draw good conclusions in a short period of time and
48 jpheym : Bandwidth for two-way in-flight high speed internet is already economically viable. In-flight internet uses the same class of high-power geostationar
49 apfpilot : You discount the infrastructure needed to then receive catalog and monitor that data as well as the cost of getting that data off the aircraft (inmar
50 jpheym : Model fitting and statistical deviation from an expected flight plan. There are enough flights in a year to model every piece of data, determine all
51 Post contains links tortugamon : Flight global has an article about the limitations of technology when it comes to SAR. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-in-search-for-missing-7
52 jpheym : Receiving the data isn't an issue as it would be transmitted over an RF IP network to a geosynchronous satelite, as is already done with in-flight in
53 Post contains links apfpilot : While it is cheaper it is still very expensive. Depending on what you are using for the pipe, Gogo is the least expensive and highest bandwidth but i
54 apfpilot : In what way isn't what they already get as close to real time as possible?
55 FlyingAY : $100k per aircraft over the lifetime of an aircraft? That's peanuts if we think that the aircraft will probably fly 20k times, carrying 200+ passenge
56 tortugamon : I am sure I don't understand all that is involved here but my view is that if you can get the primary instrument readings down to the ground in semi-
57 asetiadi : They should equip BLACKBOX with GPS Signal, just like the one we have in our car. This case, if the plane goes down, we know exactly where to look for
58 Mir : But if the primary instrument readings are bad, another person looking at them is not going to arrive at a valid conclusion (or, if you believe the i
59 Post contains images Starlionblue : Well there's your problem. If the AF447 crew had initially reacted to the emergency by treating it like an emergency instead of running, there would
60 cabochris : Everyone stop.... yes, a MAS 777-200 will transmit data...up to its power and input life, in this case it just stopped! What dose this mean...? well i
61 Starlionblue : To be precise, we don't actually know any of that except she was at 35k feet and on course. The fact that nothing mechanical was reported is most lik
62 tortugamon : You could be right. I am not sure it could work. I am intrigued by the concept though. QF32 had a crew on the ground trying to figure out what happen
63 ushermittwoch : This incident has caused more assumptions than any other topic I have ever seen on here. The quality of this site is truly declining. smh
64 Starlionblue : Absolutely. However in these cases the situation was stabilized. Aviate first. Once you've got the plane nice and stable, then you troubleshoot. Abou
65 planesmart : Learning and the opportunity for improvement and development should be grabbed when they occur, in finance, aviation, safety, and personally. Througho
66 Post contains links tortugamon : Another solid article about possible technology improvements to black boxes and communication: http://skift.com/2014/03/09/beyond-t...ions-broken-comm
67 na : The SAR planes seem not to have a single decent camera on board, let alone someone who knows more about cameras than pressing a button. The floating
68 D L X : I didn't see the word "bandwidth" mentioned one time. There are physical (not technical) limitations to doing some of the things that are being descr
69 Post contains images rolfen : Many thanks for your answers This convinces me more of the need of some kind of beacon that would transmit position just when an impact (or disintegr
70 Post contains images skipness1E : By probably you meant "completely and utterly"
71 FlyingAY : I agree that it's not worth to talk about MH370 lessons learned, but if the thread was titled "How could we speed up the finding of a lost airplane?"
72 thunderboltdrgn : It does if you have an anti-theft GPS tracker system for your car or boat.
73 9VSIO : Does that require a cell tower to be nearby? i.e. A-GPS?
74 thunderboltdrgn : I don't know. Maybe it does? But surely it would be possible to use reversed GPS? Sending signals to satellites rather then just receiving signals?[E
75 D L X : Agreed. As the thread has actually progressed, it really has turned into that very generalized topic, and not very specific at all about MH370. What
76 jpheym : There is no satellite bandwidth issue provided the aircraft are equipped with a suitable phased array or steerable antenna. TerreStar-1 (largest comm
77 rfields5421 : Wasn't something like that a recommendation from BEA from AF447? Or am I thinking of the recommendation for multiple FDR/CVR devices in different loc
78 FlyingAY : Norwegian has 74 planes currently that offer FREE Wifi onboard. They're an LCC selling rather cheap flights and their customers get the access for fr
79 D L X : Agreed. As the thread has actually progressed, it really has turned into that very generalized topic, and not very specific at all about MH370. What
80 rolfen : Exactly. A dedicated system would be more reliable and performant, but if we want to do something cheap - In many cases, the systems are already ther
81 Post contains links 747megatop : I think manufacturers need to devise some kind of inflateable buoy of some sort that automatically inflates and comes to the surface in case of a cras
82 Post contains links tortugamon : Still catching up on reading posts above but in the mean time here are a couple more articles about black box improvements This first one mentions a B
83 apfpilot : That'd be my boss. Not surprisingly I agree with him. All of the data doesn't need to be streamed. Again if you look at the parameters that are inclu
84 mjoelnir : We have learned one thing again from MH370, it is necessary to have a system making it easier to locate a downed airliner. It would cut down on the e
85 apfpilot : A Sonobuoy is air dropped and wouldn't really be relevant in this case. This could make sense. It could even be integrated into the stab with bolts t
86 D L X : Why is it "necessary?" This is an honest question in need of an answer before we embark on spending billions on doing something different. Has there
87 tortugamon : This is a fantastic idea in my opinion. It appears that a significant amount of the SAR (outside of the Orion's and the specialized ships) consist of
88 747megatop : Perhaps the cost involved in search and recovery would make it "necessary" (not to mention the emotional cost of family members not knowing fate of t
89 747megatop : I gave that just as an example. In fact being air dropped makes it more relevant to this and all cases; if the buoy could differentiate between being
90 D L X : How much do you think the search and rescue costs, and how often? (Every 5-10 years or so?) Compare that to how much putting the systems you and othe
91 apfpilot : I would think that there would have to be an airgap between the network that is connected to the mx system and the network that pax/crew can access.
92 mjoelnir : I think you do not want to contemplate the enormous cost in not only money but man hours every such search involves. That is why I say we have to. Th
93 mjoelnir : I think you are downplaying what search and rescue costs. If we take 20.000 USD an hour, 50 units searching, 3 days that would be 72 Mill USD for not
94 Boeing717200 : Actually is comments are spot on. Societies rush to find immediate answers is the societal problem because it pushes people to rush to an answer.[Edi
95 tortugamon : Small planes go missing more often than giant airliners. Steve Fossett's plane was missing for over a year. Military applications abound: flight 19?
96 Boeing717200 : In incident investigation, its a horrible thing.
97 bmw770xli : What is wrong with (most) of you??? The problem is we don't know where the aircraft is therefore we don't know what went wrong. This thread is simply
98 Boeing717200 : Most of them don't understand aircraft incident investigation or the limitations even with modern tech. The problem is people want answers in 30 seco
99 tortugamon : The horrible thing is when investigators give in to that pressure and release pre-mature information or make poor decisions. The push for answers is
100 Post contains images mjoelnir : Spot on!
101 Post contains links and images D L X : And not just in incident investigation. In search and rescue, it is a bad thing. The first responder that rushes in often falls victim to the same th
102 Post contains images Boeing717200 : So then you want a PR person instead of an investigator.
103 Post contains links 747megatop : More than 25 million $ for AF 447 per this - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/ma...8Plane-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0. To answer your point thoug
104 Boeing717200 : To be sure, if they want to launch a fleet of satellites to support it, they can run into multiple billions rather quickly.
105 Post contains images tortugamon : Well stated and you are not alone. GPS could be part of the solution. The solution would need to know that it is in trouble, collect key data (like G
106 Boeing717200 : Most PR people cant work their way out of a closet and you want them to be technical? All I can do is shake my head on this statement. Nevermind the
107 WorldFlight : I didn't read the whole thread but I am sure the aircraft was equipped with Triple GPS/INS or GPS/IRU, HF as well as SATCOM, and Aircraft Communicatio
108 SonomaFlyer : It's impossible to design an emergency transmitter which will survive every conceivable event. The a/c here was either vaporized in a catostrophic exp
109 Post contains images mjoelnir : I think the people hear confuse two things. A. Finding the wreck and sometimes possible survivors, and that has to happen as fast as possible. and B.
110 747megatop : Why would they need to launch a fleet of satellites just for this? I am no stallite expert but what about leveraging existing satellites that various
111 rwessel : Orbits in the 12,000 mile range are never considered low.
112 Boeing717200 : Just so you understand the reality here. AF 447 crashed 400 miles from land. What boat or rotorcraft do you propose they use to get there inside of 1
113 LH707330 : Agreed, the amount of bandwidth you would need per plane is comparatively trivial when compared to the rest of the wifi traffic. I would design a sys
114 D L X : Okay. This is going to be a pretty comprehensive post, so my apologies. Indeed. To put some numbers in perspective: $25 Million - the cost to find AF4
115 Boeing717200 : What people are missing here is that whatever knocked out the crews ability to communicate likely would have knocked out any automated reporting syst
116 Post contains links 747megatop : What do you mean? There seem to be more areas that are covered than not covered. https://www.satcomdirect.com/main/aviation/swift-64/coverage.aspx ht
117 Post contains images tortugamon : My sister in law has a chip on her dog so that if she (the dog) gets lost, she (sister in law) can me find her. If my phone gets lost I have a tracker
118 Boeing717200 : The amount of dataflow required here would send that system crashing into the abyss. You could deploy a bouy and the aircraft could still crash a tho
119 billreid : Recently met with L-3 Communications. They are very excited about the Iridium Satellite communications, that said the company is moving forward like E
120 Boeing717200 : Of course they are. Imagine the revenue stream from tens of thousands of aircraft transmitting massive amounts of data every day. Bandwidth is the la
121 747megatop : DLX, Note sure why you are highlighting the costs involved to justify why not to put some kind of device that can improve chances of locating wreckag
122 mjoelnir : So every future crash will occur at least 400 miles from land, your arguments are getting really ridiculous. What part of the world is outside of GPS
123 Boeing717200 : This plane was at 36,000 feet. Again, these use targeted coverage (and from the ground no less). They are also paid for by users. The cost of a conti
124 mjoelnir : The cost of the one ship, the Alucia, searching with the three automated submarines for the black box, was 25 Mill USD, not the cost of the whole sea
125 747megatop : Well, no one knows what happened after that plane was at 36,000 feet right? My gut feeling says that something bad happened and no one survived. But,
126 Post contains links and images D L X : Those guys didn't have ADS-B back then. ADS-B would probably do the trick today, for a crash on land. I'm not sure if your reading or my reading is t
127 Post contains links D L X : Fine. How does $40 M sound to you? http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/05/26/black.box.air.france/ Still WAAAY less than these alternative systems.
128 mjoelnir : Nobody knows what happened, so we do not know when it disintegrated, so that information does not matter. There are certain types of airplanes offeri
129 D L X : We know that this situation was NOTHING like US1549 or EA401. Are you talking about ACARS?
130 BackSeater : Before rushing to a technical solution, may be we should step back and agree on some requirements. Given the uncertainty around MH370, I propose that
131 Boeing717200 : We know it stopped transmitting. That's not speculation. I have no idea what happened after that nor have I suggested otherwise.
132 LH707330 : Most installations I've seen charge ~$5 for wifi use, and are not used by more than 20% of the pax. In a group of 150 pax, this works out to 30 pax f
133 cytz_pilot : Welcome to Airliners.net! What's 'wrong' with most of us is that we have no idea what happened to the aircraft. It could very well be that the reason
134 mjoelnir : The radar did help a lot in this case with finding the debris. Try again. They do work over sea and include a satellite receiver. The mission costs o
135 Post contains links 747megatop : We know nothing about this situation to be specific. All we know is that with the best technology available we are not able to locate a missing aircr
136 Post contains links tortugamon : A long article about the limitations of ELTs and ADS-B and it praises a technology branded Spider S3. The theme of the article is that there is better
137 BackSeater : I suggest saying instead "with the technology currently used by commercial aircraft" More could be done with today's technology but it is not mandate
138 Boeing717200 : Which tells you they were close enough to benefit from radar and that they continued to transmit information on some level that could be received. Ne
139 Post contains images Starlionblue : I'll start off by saying that real-time tracking has been improving for decades and will continue improving. However aviation does not change amazingl
140 aerorobnz : Sat phones are already on all of my airline's fleet, I kinda figured it was already standard issue
141 rfields5421 : No one is accepting status quo. Adam Air 574, SA295 and AF447 clearly demonstrated the system is not good enough. The often overlooked part of the BE
142 Boeing717200 : Got that right.
143 ltbewr : One idea could be an short burst message or a series of them that could be transmitted if an major and unplanned change. A sudden decompression, an er
144 rfields5421 : That is one of the recommendations by BEA working groups as a result of AF447. There are groups working on standards for such messages, the triggers
145 tortugamon : I have not seen the list. Definitely would like it. It does seem like authorities like the NTSB can make recommendations all day but they don't have
146 Post contains links Viscount724 : If you increase your time frame to 35 years, a Varig 707 freighter disappeared in 1979 about 30 minutes after takeoff from NRT en route to LAX and GI
147 rfields5421 : Aviation is very resistant to introduction of new technology. (Even not considering the costs issues.) Too often in the past new technology has not l
148 apfpilot : Those aren't a fraud at all they do exactly what they say they do, provide another way to identify your dog and reconnect you if they are lost when t
149 Post contains links D L X : Okay, then now I know what is going on. There are things a satellite can do well and things it cannot. Broadcast is something it can do exceptionally
150 mjoelnir : I made the mistake using the point in 20.000 instead of the comma, as in my country we use the point for the 1,000 mark. So I was talking about 10,00
151 lutfi : I work with aircraft components. Multiply those figures by 50 times and you would have a better estimate of likely costs! We are looking at data stre
152 D L X : They're a fraud because they've tricked people into thinking that it tracks the dog's whereabouts while it does nothing more than what a dogtag does.
153 lutfi : In my view, you would be looking at costs of 500,000 to 1m USD per aircraft for the equipment, and about 10% running costs. Stuff on commercial aircra
154 FlyingAY : You're talking about spending billions for finding the things sooner, but it's good to keep in mind that every day the search continues costs million
155 Mir : A very bad thing, actually. When you rush to a solution, you invariably have unintended consequences, some of which can be worse than the original pr
156 tortugamon : Apparently this strategy is being employed again. Someone is posting very high resolution images for crowd searching to look for debris. Supposedly t
157 BackSeater : Please, allow me to disagree. Maybe, you dismiss my suggestion a bit too quickly. Indeed current onboard systems track and report when everything is
158 D L X : We've discussed this in the thread. By the highest figure, that search cost $40 Million. There may be good reason for this. What if it were the ADS-B
159 rolfen : I'm sorry, I have to answer to this: You make it sound like it's a big undertaking. As I said before (and probably more than once), there are already
160 CZ326 : Not sure if this was discussed earlier, but I would like to see the use of security cameras that can be seen from the air traffic ppl and from externa
161 Post contains images airtechy : How do you tackle the problem of rogue pilots commandeering the airplane? The terrorists have obviously decided that starting from within the cockpit
162 mjoelnir : For me it would be interesting how you get to that number. We read that there are about 30 vessels and 40 aircraft involved in this search and the nu
163 D L X : Now that it's coming out that this mystery disappearance is more and more likely a deliberate one, I hope everyone can see how utterly premature it wa
164 747megatop : I don't think it is pemature. It has been established now that a commerical aircraft can essentially go dark without being tracked by either the mili
165 Post contains links mjoelnir : We do not know that, it is a plain speculation. And what does it change? In SAR the standard for a successful search is inside 24 hours, so if there
166 Post contains links tortugamon : Apparently MH370 was communicating GPS and some basic operating data with a satellite so some of the technology mentioned above is in operation. It ce
167 747megatop : I am assuming that indicates position data? What if the Indian Ocean/Andaman Sea search is a wild goose chase? Does anyone know if for example Philip
168 Post contains links D L X : First, that's not "lesson learned" and second, the evidence suggests that it _was_ tracked by radars. That's why they're adjusting where they are loo
169 Post contains links 747megatop : You are kidding right? 14 countries; 40+ ships; 25+ aircraft DON'T know EXACTLY where it went down. Seems more like a fishing expedition to me where
170 Post contains links tortugamon : If the Beacon is strong enough it could give a location to help find the wreckage and if the data recorder (black box) was on the surface, you wouldn
171 Post contains links 747megatop : Subsequent to AF 447 there would be quite a bit of disagreement. BEA has already made recommendations for faster recovery of wreckage and CVF,FDR. Ai
172 D L X : Again, it is not safety that you are concerned with, as these things do not aid the survivability of an accident. 1948 is too far back to consider as
173 mjoelnir : One of the main points of the survivability of an accident is to be found inside of 24 hours.
174 tortugamon : More people have lived through plane crashes then have died in them. I not sure why people think that its a complete death sentence. 1/3 of ET#961 li
175 Post contains links 747megatop : Pilots have spoken from their point of view and expertise. As far as the design of the airplane and what makes sense/what is feasible Boeing & Ai
176 D L X : And what's the rate when the plane crashes in the open ocean? Has there EVER been a survivor of a plane that crashed in the ocean? I'm pretty sure th
177 mjoelnir : As people have survived crashes near shore, could be the main cause be SAR being too late to the place of accident? And the too late being a result o
178 tortugamon : ET961 Huh? They landed in water. You are right it is a very different World. Now aircraft can be used as an instrument of mass destruction. Imagine i
179 D L X : That was not a crash in the ocean. There's a big difference between in the water and in the ocean. We do not know that yet. Because in the event that
180 Post contains links rfields5421 : ALM Flight 980 - 30 miles form the nearest land - 40 survivors and 23 fatalities Yes, it was a rather successful open ocean ditching - but it was for
181 mjoelnir : If you are still claiming that SAR is not about finding the place of the accident fast, and that the inside 24 hours is not the aim, than you have re
182 mjoelnir : Than there is a simple solution, remove the off switch. And the second point is, somebody has to record and react. But there is one problem ADS-B dep
183 FlyingAY : Like the life vests? Regarding IFE: The IFE equipment also weighs a lot. If airlines are willing to carry IFE even if it costs them millions per year
184 FlyingAY : If someone knew something about it, it's a clear sign that things can be improved. Maybe improving the international laws regarding aviation, maybe i
185 tomlee : I think the simplest solution is a software one. Just mandate a firmware update be done or swap from mfg for the automatic activation (installed) ELTs
186 D L X : Straw man. I've described the math many times, but I can't make you read what I've written. If you're just going to ignore the facts I present, I'm c
187 Tangowhisky : I think this is a great topic and thank you for the initiative. No we don't know what happened exactly, but there are theories out there now that were
188 Post contains links tortugamon : Forget most of the SAR, just the deep-sea trawl portion of AF447 cost $100 Million. The entire search was much more. Could better technology reduce th
189 Post contains links tortugamon : Here is an article discussing ways to make a cost efficient alternative to a virtual black box. From Mary Kirby http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201..
190 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : If this is the one you're referring to it was in 2003, not the 1980s. Most speculation is that the 727 was stolen, not hijacked. http://www.airspacem
191 DocLightning : I can think of one modification that could be made relatively inexpensively. An ELT that continuously (or at least every few minutes) transmits positi
192 Post contains images 747megatop : Huh? That certainly was not in a lake or a river! Comoros Islands is certainly in the Indian Ocean - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Comoro+Islands
193 Post contains links tortugamon : That was the one I was thinking about. A 727 flying in 2003 is tough for me to picture. Agreed. I am not sure if the data has to come from the ELT it
194 Post contains images 747megatop : Forget 24 hours; almost 10 days and counting with the plane not being found without certainty whether it landed intact or crashed in the ocean. That
195 rolfen : There is one concern that we can add now, in addition to the surviveablility and other benefits of quickly finding the airplane: terrorism. As the air
196 Starlionblue : There would probably have been more survivors if that ditching had happened today. - The cabin crew and pax did not understand what was happening due
197 9VSIO : Doc, won't this flood the emergency channels? 121.5 would just a constant noise of ELTs!
198 Mir : I find this hard to believe. For one thing, you can't leave the airplane just sitting out in the open - the whole world is looking for it, and someon
199 Tangowhisky : It is not realistic to do such a thing. However, there should be 3 or 4 cameras in the cockpit located at different positions to provide video feed t
200 prebennorholm : It is there, Squawk 7500. It is not unlikely that we will have to get used to "MH370 is never found". And that we will never know much more than we a
201 D L X : I actually really like this idea. I have heard (with a fair degree of certainty) that modern black boxes are SD based instead of tape based. SD holds
202 Post contains links rolfen : Here's an article that discusses the topic. It does not bring much new information to what has already been said in this thread, but it's nice to hear
203 Unflug : I think this topic in itself is a recipe for future failures. "Learning a lesson" before having any idea what actually happened is exactly the thing t
204 LH707330 : I disagree, the first lesson learned is "it's 2014 and we can't reliably track commercial airliners." Some of the proposals above may help rectify th
205 Unflug : Well, we don't even know if the systems in place failed or were switched off. There are well known proposals for improved tracking, but there is no l
206 rolfen : We're just discussing ways to make things better and helping prevent airplanes from being lost, with what we already know. I would say maybe there is
207 Post contains images yellowtail : Hey! I take offence to that! Now where is that dang door
208 Post contains links tortugamon : An ariticle in flightglobal about real time communication: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...tors-blog/2014/03/cost-phone-call/ They go on to arg
209 747megatop : As many others and myself have pointed out earlier in this thread, 2 lessons that can be learnt so far are - an aircraft should be tracked at all tim
210 Post contains images mjoelnir : It really does not matter if the systems failed or if they were switched off. It was not possible to track the plane and it should be possible to tra
211 D L X : That sounds a whole lot what one of the posters on this thread was saying. I think more patience is needed. If it takes 1-4 years to completely inves
212 Post contains links 747megatop : I think we need agree on some basic terms so that we are all on the same page. - when we say "missing" i assume that we are saying that all contact w
213 mjoelnir : The patience with being told to have patience wears very thin. There are people involved, not only a crash investigation. You should go out and confr
214 747megatop : I hope you realize that searching for MH 370 is like searching for a single molecule in a swirling buket of water. Even AF 447 was the same but they
215 D L X : Then you have a strange definition of rare. There have been on the order of 1 BILLION flights taken in the last 30 years. Twenty six of them have gon
216 mjoelnir : Of course it would be a bad idea, the thought alone freezes your blood, if you would have to explain your ideas to the relatives of the missing.
217 Pihero : Your memory is betraying you : The search was interrupted for a long time, for people to try and re-establish a new scenario. Then they started anoth
218 777Jet : One thing that I suggested in the MH370 threads was something like a dead man's switch that needed to be pressed every so often, particularly when the
219 strfyr51 : It was reported today on CNN that the acft was carrying a load of lithium-Ion batteries, The SAME batteries that cought fire and brought down a UPS 74
220 747megatop : Well; i don't think i have a strange definition of rare and that is why i asked. It really depends on how one views it. If we look at 26 under water
221 rwessel : That statement is simply incorrect. Nothing can happen "regardless" of the cost involved. If this costs $1B per airplane, it's not going to happen, p
222 747megatop : I think this statement is incorrect. The very fact that 25+ nations are involved in the search with 40+ ships and 30+ aircrafts is happening regardle
223 prebennorholm : Somehow I agree with you, but your comparison to Mars missions is not relevant. Out of 51 missions to Mars only 21 has been totally successful, 3 par
224 747megatop : You are absolutely right. My bad for not being clear in my example. I was referring to the capability we have currently to track and communicate (and
225 Starlionblue : I have a hazy memory of this already being implemented on newer airliners. Alarms will go off if the pilots don't touch anything for too long. Need t
226 prebennorholm : We already have that - ADS-B and ADS-C. I believe that 370 was ADS-C equipped, but it failed, maybe because crew switched it off. The somewhat more a
227 rwessel : The US, China and Japan could each have sent over a hundred ships each. And several hundred aircraft each. It is just the data recorders (little more
228 Mir : But you've just created a significant FOD hazard in the event of a really hard landing. So you need to have a system to alert the crew that the relea
229 rwessel : With that hard a landing you'll likely to have FOD on the runway anyway. And yes, a "released" detector would be necessary, but the reliability requi
230 747megatop : Sure, if INMARSAT did not have the satellite pings to generate the arc of that last known position then yes we would probably have seen more countrie
231 prebennorholm : The tail top G force released capsule was in fact my first proposal here on a.net following AF447 back in 2009. But there are circumstances when it w
232 zeke : I think it would have had ADS-B and CPDLC, not ADS-C.
233 rfields5421 : Sully's aircraft hit the water at more than 12G according to the NTSB report. Enough that the rear pressure bulkhead was compromised and half of it l
234 D L X : Then make it 13 G's. Isn't it that simple?
235 Post contains links tortugamon : RunwayGirl was interviewed by cbs news today and they have a bunch of good quotes from her in regard to anticipated changes in the industry. Article i
236 rfields5421 : The aircraft performance specifications for pilots for a water landing are 3 to 4 G max. Structural integrity is not ensured at higher G loads by reg
237 rolfen : Do the CVR and the FDR save the lives of people in a plane about to crash? No? Then why the hell are they mandatory? PS: this is really annoying, but
238 Post contains links rolfen : More Ideas, from the main MH370 thread, specifically here: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civi
239 mjoelnir : There are several points to learn. First is identification. Every commercial airliner should have a identification system that is not possible to be s
240 Mir : One that caught my eye: "We need to not have the ability to simply switch off a transponder, and not know where an aircraft is at," Kirby said. "If y
241 billreid : How about 1. A black box that sends a sonar type sound that carries 100Miles under water for a period of six months if detached from Aircraft. 2. A bl
242 tortugamon : You raise good points but can't both be done? Shouldn't a pilot be able to trip a breaker for fire purposes but still communicate with ground control
243 Mir : Depends on the power sources. You can put more items on for redundancy if you want, but more than one per power source isn't helping you all that muc
244 mjoelnir : No pilot should be able to turn the identification and perhaps the position reporting off. It is possible to construct electrical equipment that will
245 BruceSmith : For 1 to be implemented, you will need to generate sound in very low frequency ranges at very high power levels. Consider a blue whale sound. They vo
246 mjoelnir : Or a solution produced and certified 40 years ago and never improved upon, the aviation industry seems to be able to stick for decades to outdated te
247 Mir : And where does that equipment get its power from? Seems like that would have to be explosion-proof as well. What you'll likely end up with is a compl
248 prebennorholm : No, let the Black box stay as it is. We need it for on-land disasters including its resistance to heat and crash forces. But write all data to an add
249 mjoelnir : You can endless talk around the problem. It draws the power from the normal board system and has a back up battery inside to keep it powered when the
250 prebennorholm : I agree totally with this. We shall act to the problems, not the symptoms. It would have been nice if the transponder had staid active. But that woul
251 mjoelnir : But to be able to search for the black box one has to know were the wreck is and in that case not being able to track the flightpath of the plane is
252 prebennorholm : Wrong. The floating sonobuoy style vehicle transmits its GPS position. It tells the approximate position of the wreck on the ocean floor. But leave i
253 rfields5421 : Most of this is in a working group recommendation as part of the recommendations from AF447. It is being worked upon. But we do not have a single wor
254 mjoelnir : When the floating buoy works. There are to points to finding a wreck, saving somebody in case somebody has lived through the crash, and finding the p
255 Mir : I want to be able to turn off everything that is not necessary to keep the airplane in the air. That means the lights, the environmental systems, and
256 mjoelnir : I think this is just paranoia. Hydraulics can be a cause of fire, but you can not turn them off because you need them. Today some of the hydraulics g
257 Mir : As I said, that's airplane-dependent. The airplane I fly currently flies reasonably well without hydraulics, and I will turn them off if I see fit (a
258 mjoelnir : Compulsory satellite tracking of all ocean going vessels of over 300 tons and all passenger vessels was established by 1988, not a better political s
259 mjoelnir : You can switch it off? A new one for me. I think you can only activate it, you can not switch off its automatic activation.
260 mjoelnir : That is about as two edged a sword as one can think of. That is exactly why one should not be able to shut off tracking. Give the tracking unit its o
261 rfields5421 : Remember the Ethiopian B787 fire at Heathrow? That was cause by the ELT.
262 ltbewr : From news reports related to MH370, in the next several years the DFR's will have to have their batteries in new and existing systems at replacement t
263 mjoelnir : First I call it bad design, that a botched Battery change can lead to a fire. That design would have not been accepted as either intrinsically safe n
264 D L X : How much do you know about batteries? You just heard a pilot tell you otherwise.
265 DeltaMD90 : Can you though? I thought you could turn it on and then off so it's not transmitting but I don't believe it's possible from shutting it off so it can
266 Mir : I can't switch off its automatic activation, but I can turn it off once it has activated. There's a circuit breaker that I can pull as well, though I
267 mjoelnir : I assume a lot more than you, if you defend a design were a botched battery exchange can lead to a fire. The first and second and third design consid
268 Mir : There's always a way to turn it off in case of inadvertent activation. -Mir
269 Post contains links rfields5421 : http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp2228/pdf/hr/tp2228e_26.pdf Satellite alerting for ELT locaters was occurring on an almost daily basis within the
270 mjoelnir : Yes you were right and I was wrong you can switch the ELT off. Not the unit itself but the signal. Just push the activate button again in my case. 40
271 D L X : Well, you know what they say about assumptions. I'm pretty confident in my engineering background, particularly when it comes to electronics. I don't
272 Post contains links tortugamon : Here is a new article about how the black boxes are old and archaic and they talk about the need for ejectable boxes including an interview from a Nor
273 mjoelnir : Says the one who starts the childish fight. To answer your question, I know how batteries work, what different dangers different kind of batteries po
274 Post contains links prebennorholm : OMG! The only thing needed to avoid these horrible searches for the black boxes, and what I have advocated here on a.net since the day after AF447 - a
275 tortugamon : Easy to miss I know but this was mentioned in reply #166. There definitely needs to be some kind of system wide change. tortugamon
276 D L X : Yet, I can gel your entire argument down to this: That is not the issue! The issue in aviation is not that you design things that don't break, but rat
277 Post contains links prebennorholm : Yeah, I missed that. Sorry. But please don't miss this one: http://www.drs.com/Products/C3A/PDF/DFIRS.pdf
278 Starlionblue : Good pilots are paranoid about aviation. It is what keeps us alive. From day one of training, good instructors will drill into you the need to check,
279 argonaught : Make it completely autonomous, tamper-resistent transmitterS in plural.
280 mjoelnir : That is exactly why you should NOT be able to turn of systems which help to track and find you in case of emergency's. Because not being able to be f
281 D L X : Don't you think such a casing would have a pretty adverse effect on its ability to function as designed? If you put a transmitter in a solid metal bo
282 mjoelnir : Easy, you put the antenna outside the casing, the unit does not have to be crash survivable. Even most ELT's have separate antennas, one of the reaso
283 DeltaMD90 : So you'd rather them be able to track your flaming aircraft to the ground rather than have the pilots shut it off and land safely? We can't rouge-pil
284 D L X : Respectfully, I think this scenario is ridiculous. First, you have not addressed the fact that a pilot will do anything to avoid crashing his plane o
285 Post contains links 747megatop : IATA is assembling a task force to examine the feasibility of live data streaming and what it takes - http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-live-dat
286 rfields5421 : Typical bureaucrats answer. Duplication of the work already done by the previous BEA working group, and the current ICAO group working on better airc
287 asetiadi : 1. Install a live feed camera (CCTV) in the cockpit. 2. Get rid of the black box and change it via online/air transmission to airline headquarter. 3.
288 DeltaMD90 : Have you missed the dozens of threads that mentioned the ungodly costs of this? The technology just ain't there (for anywhere near the right price) W
289 chartabee : Please rethink annoyed, negative responses.... Some of us are here to learn! Perhaps it hasn't occurred to you so-called aviation experts/ career prof
290 DeltaMD90 : Learning is admirable, not doing a simple CTRL+F search and asking the same questions over again is not (not directed at you.) It doesn't help that s
291 mjoelnir : It is you primitive to think so You could also do some learning!!!! Tracking: every commercial ocean going cargo vessel over 300 tons and every comme
292 DeltaMD90 : Oh yeah? Streaming CVR/FDR data via satellite is not extremely expensive? I've seen some pretty decent suggestions. But the people that continuously
293 mjoelnir : In an airplane using for example ACARS already? In an airplane having installed satellite internet? There are two streams data and voice to the CVR/F
294 Post contains links mjoelnir : That is done for internet connectivity on aeroplanes via satellite as an example. Up to 4 Mbps. http://www.viasat.com/broadband-netw...ice-for-busine
295 Post contains images D L X : Irrelevant. Download speed is completely different from upload speed. You need to care about how fast the data can travel from the plane to the satel
296 mjoelnir : Now you should really read up on facts!!!! That is the upload speed for each aeroplane. Not for a fleet. How does that matter? Could you give a techn
297 D L X : Not when you multiply by the number of airplanes. The 512 kbps I quoted does not mean that each plane would get to use 512kbps. If you multiplied tha
298 mjoelnir : You just do not want to get it. Communication satellites are used by a lot of users, civil aviation use is and will not be the main users of that ban
299 DeltaMD90 : Can you provide a link mjoelnir? I'm more than happy being wrong and looking like a jackass... I'd rather be right and look stupid than be wrong and "
300 Post contains links mjoelnir : Cost of the data Stream. As it would go over the same satellite connections as ACARS messaging. Start searching cost of ACARS on the net. What I foun
301 D L X : You keep implying that is cheap, but do you know how much it would cost to send 1 high res picture of your herrings at .2 USD per kb? A 6 megapixel j
302 prebennorholm : HD video i roughly 10Mbits/s. Wired telephone connection is 64kbits/s, want MP3 like quality it's more like 1Mbits/s. USD 0.2/kbit = USD 200/Mbit. HD
303 Post contains links mjoelnir : Yes you got it, that is what Kbits cost in the full aviation treatment 0.2 USD per Kbit around the year 2012 for ACARS. You will hardly find more exp
304 D L X : Did you read what I wrote? How do you get $700 a month when it's $320 each to send your herring pictures? Using YOUR numbers, it sure sounds like you
305 MD11Engineer : Actually the maritime equivalent of an ELT, an EPIRB, has by law to be fixed in it's mount with a water pressure sensitive release mechanism. If the
306 Post contains images p51tang : Next of kin was a prerequisite when I filled out my Passport Application. 1/ Police (Maybe expedite with improvements to existing flight location tec
307 mjoelnir : It seems that you really can not read. On one side I talked about the cost of ACARS an aviation application, and I assume that the cost for Data from
308 DTW2HYD : Both Inmarsat and Iridium are at extremes. Inmarsat has very few (3-4) huge satellites in GEO and Iridium has too many (66) in LEO. Inmarsat has to s
309 D L X : I read what you wrote just fine. It would help if you cite your sources. And why is it that you believe the price of sat communication one way is not
310 DeltaMD90 : mjoelnir, I apologize, I am also having a tough time swallowing your costs. Am I understanding it right, you want to stream FDR data and some lower qu
311 mjoelnir : To try it again. I assumed that the cost of moving information from an aeroplane via ground station if in reach and via satellite if no ground statio
312 Post contains links LipeGIG : As this thread become too long, we are opening a Part 2 for discussions. Please see below the link MH370 - Lessons Learned, Changes In Civil Aviation
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
A Decade In Civil Aviation: 2000-2009 posted Wed Dec 30 2009 14:21:36 by 777-500ER
Fatigue Most Denied Risk In Civil Aviation? posted Mon Oct 26 2009 10:41:55 by Keesje
What Is A Diploma In Civil Aviation? posted Wed Dec 19 2007 07:51:10 by DeltaWings
Milestones In Civil Aviation posted Fri Jan 26 2007 17:30:45 by Tranceport
Rapid Changes In Mexico's Aviation Industry posted Thu Jan 12 2006 18:42:38 by AR385
Career Opportunities In Civil Aviation? posted Tue Sep 6 2005 00:17:33 by YoungFlyer
Vicious Yet Intelligent Argument In Civil Aviation posted Wed Sep 29 2004 10:54:00 by Acidradio
Biggest Failure In Civil Aviation? posted Thu Apr 1 2004 02:20:02 by Henpol747
Over 200,000 Posts In Civil Aviation Forum! posted Fri Oct 20 2000 11:14:49 by Lowfareair
Chronicle Of The 1990's In Civil Aviation posted Sat Feb 5 2000 04:25:38 by American 767