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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 99688 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Due to length part 9 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 10.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)



-There's no solid evidence other that 9M-MRO remains missing.

-There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO.

-The debris field, when it's finally located might be our first clue as to what happened. But even that is being distorted by the ocean as the hours pass.

-We still have the barest of info.

-There were no calls for help, and apparently data and radar were lost around 41 minutes into the flight near IGARI waypoint.

-Several countries are assisting in the search effort.

-At present a government cover-up seems unlikely.

*** Extracts from several members ***


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!


Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
267 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 99875 times:

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 265):
But according to MAS officials, MAS B777-200ER is equipped with VHF, HF, SATCOM, ACARS, CPDLC.

Then I think the official last position is from ACARS, the one near IGARI, and ACARS was otherwise unhelpful.

The search of the North Malacca area remains very odd...


User currently offlinehivue From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1101 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 99450 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1):
Then I think the official last position is from ACARS

I don't believe any ACARS data (if it exists) has been released. Are you thinking of ADS-B?


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 627 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 99498 times:

I have been following this subject up to thread 6 so not aware whether the following has been mentioned.
According to a Straits Times article, "some of the MAS' team of 'special assistance' staff spoke no Mandarin and only rudimentary English". This fact, among others, had exacerbated the tension in the holding room for MH370 passengers' families in Beijing.
The question is what is the 'special assistance' team's mission? Am I wrong to assume that the primary, at at least one of the main purpose, is to render consolatory support, to show that MAS care, a personal touch so to speak. So having non-Mandarin speakers with laughable English skills just do not hack it. Given MAS' reputation for its army of unproductive hanger-ons, are they "selected" because of their "connections" to have a "free holiday" in Beijing? I won't be surprised if that's the case.


*My above post appeared in thread 9 a few minutes after it was locked, so re-posting here as the previous one is likely to be deleted for housekeeping reasons.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 98522 times:

I'd like to know the reasoning behind searching the South Andaman Sea at all.

It is hard to see MAS370 making a sweeping turn to port over the Gulf of Thailand, crossing the isthmus of Thailand around Phuket area or the Malaysian peninsula, and crashing in either the South Andaman Sea or the Strait of Malacca.

From last reported position this could be a hours flight time or more in an almost opposite direction.

What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 98295 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 1):

The search of the North Malacca area remains very odd...

Indeed, this is very odd, and I can only imagine that there must be some information--not yet released to the public--that would lead them to look in that direction, and at that particular area. It would suggest to me that analysis of primary radar returns, or perhaps some other data, has indicated that the aircraft continued to fly for quite some time in that direction after its transponder ceased to transmit its location. Which in turn would seem to indicate that the aircraft did not suffer a sudden disintegration at cruising altitude along its planned route. Very interesting.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlineSTEVE7E7 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 478 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 98249 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
I'd like to know the reasoning behind searching the South Andaman Sea at all.

It is hard to see MAS370 making a sweeping turn to port over the Gulf of Thailand, crossing the isthmus of Thailand around Phuket area or the Malaysian peninsula, and crashing in either the South Andaman Sea or the Strait of Malacca.

From last reported position this could be a hours flight time or more in an almost opposite direction.

What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

Maybe the authorities are aware of certain information that has yet to be disclosed.


User currently offlinegosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 98012 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

They authorities either have info they are keeping to themselves, or they are running out of places to search. It's night time there again too, which won't help.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 843 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 97785 times:

Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96955 times:

Indeed the only possible rational conclusion as to why they are searching there is: they are withholding information from the public domain.

If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineQuantos From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96694 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

Hardly see how that would be possible. You're referring to a complete vaporization of the aircraft and its content. Realistically, the most devastating incidents that are brought up as theories are terrorism, or an unknown structural failure. In the case of a terrorist attack, you'd have to imagine the explosive used would be of small size: enough to critically affect the aircraft, but reasonably easy to smuggle on board. As for a structural failure of unknown cause, what could really be the most devastating circumstances? Even a sudden explosion and subsequent decompression would probably leave huge chunks of the plane more or less in one piece (tail, portions of fuselage, etc).


User currently offlineultrapig From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96657 times:

This must have been asked and answer but its too hard to search-
Is there any scenario where the plane would have:

Crashed (or "landed") in the sea and simpy sank without leaving a trace?

In other words if one assume that the plane ended its fligth in the water can we asmem debris will eventually be located?


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96647 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 4):
What is the reasoning that points in this distant direction?

Because there is obviously a chance (based on information not given to us) they may have turned around...

Remember, there is likely to be a lot of information that is not in public domain - and rightfully so - it has absolutely nothing to do with us. Especially if the military are involved and had in fact tracked *something*.

As a search mission co-ordinator, I most certainly task SAR assets to an area unless I have some shred of credible information... It might turn out to be a false lead, or was something else that got tracked...

But something has given them reason to search there...



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinetexl1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96706 times:

They seem to be hoping desperately that it didn't go down in the jungles north of Saigon. There is really very little to be gained by the secrecy if they have evidence/rationale for going to the Andaman Sea. What "contact" are they indicating here? Was this the rumored attempt by Vietnamese ATC to communicate/get MH370 to check in?

"The mystery surrounding the airliner's last minutes deepened after Malaysian military officials said yesterday that the plane may have turned back from its scheduled route just before contact with it was lost.

Rodzali Daud, the Royal Malaysian Air Force chief, told reporters at a news conference that radar recordings had revealed the possibility that the aircraft had turned back from its scheduled flight path.

But Malaysia Airlines chief executive Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said the Boeing 777's systems would have set off alarm bells.

"When there is an air turn-back the pilot would be unable to proceed as planned," he said, adding authorities were "quite puzzled" over the situation. "


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96345 times:

Quoting hivue (Reply 2):
I don't believe any ACARS data (if it exists) has been released.

Not to us, but they would have the last position from ACARS, and that is the position they would use. It should be roughly the same as the FR24 data.

A SAR message went out that gave the IGARI waypoint coordinates as the spot, which differs from FR24's last position data slightly.

We can use FR24, but I doubt the official investigation is using it.

So I think they got coordinates from somewhere. Logically it would be ACARS.

Of course, that idea could be totally wrong.  


User currently offlinehoya From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 416 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 96000 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.

What are the currents in that region? Perhaps looking at the currents and seeing how much time has elapsed since the dissapearance, it's probably safe to assume that the majority of the floating debris won't be found where the plane went down (if it went down in the water), but rather where the current has taken it.



Hoya Saxa!!
User currently offlineSpaceshipDC10 From Canada, joined Jan 2013, 1988 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 95642 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
Could an event have been so catastrophic that 1) remains of the aircraft, passengers, and cargo are extremely small and 2) given the cruising altitude of the aircraft, a typical debris field will not be found? If so, what kind of event would cause that to happen?

I have difficulties to imagine an event happening at cruising altitude that could crush a whole airliner into very small parts. The SR MD-11 was, but it happened when it hit the water with tremendous forces.



I wish I was a glow worm.
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5302 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 95657 times:

So it now seems that the tickets of the stolen passport holders were bought with cash the day before.

CNN is saying it was an iranian man that bought the tickets. One of the men on CCTV using the passports was of African decent.


User currently offlineasuflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 95274 times:

I think that in the case of this crash the Vietnamese and Malaysian authorities are simply unequipped to deal with a disaster of this scale. The fact that the search area set by the Malaysia is extremely large is an indication that they really have no idea where the aircraft could be. Also the Malaysian government quickly responding to all the Vietnamese reports as being false thus far, and the Ballotelli comment, just are bizzare.

From the pictures of the Vietnamese Navy, the technology that they are using to find the plane seems very primitive, there is a photo of the admiral using a point and shoot cameras to photograph the ocean and another photo of the Navy in a room, planning search and rescue efforts without a single computer in sight, demonstrates lack of capabilities in realistically finding the aircraft in such a large search area.

Unlike in the AF 447 crash where the search efforts were a joint effort by the Brazilians, and U.S and the investigation was a joint French-Brazilian effort, it seems in this case the cooperation and sharing of information is minimal between the countries involved in the search, which would be one of the reasons the Chinese government is becoming increasingly frustrated at the search effort.


User currently offlineFoxBravo From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 3007 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 95282 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 9):
Indeed the only possible rational conclusion as to why they are searching there is: they are withholding information from the public domain.

If the aircraft does not turn up in the western search area, I for one would like it made known why they were searching in that area.

I have now seen in several news sources that the new search area is based on analysis of Malaysian military radar, which indicates that the aircraft may have turned around and flown in that direction.

Of course this is just speculation, but if that is in fact what happened, it would seem more likely that this was a deliberate act in which the transponder was intentionally disabled in order to obscure the aircraft's location and direction of travel. Perhaps I am missing something, but I'm having a hard time imagining a mechanical issue that would cause the transponder to stop transmitting, and prevent all radio/data communications, but nevertheless allow the aircraft to continue to fly for that long.



Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
User currently offlinegiopan1975 From Greece, joined Jun 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 94842 times:

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 12):
But something has given them reason to search there...

The posibility of a high jack, what else??


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 94853 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 14):
Not to us, but they would have the last position from ACARS, and that is the position they would use

There may be a position report from acars, but whether it is the last position of the aircraft is debatable. I think (and I am open to correction here) that acars (like ADS-C), doesn't send out constant position reports, but rather after passing a reporting point or after a specific time...

So if things went rotten exactly at a reporting point, then its likely they will be the same, otherwise there is a discrepancy.

Also, glide range can be upwards of 100nm, so it rapidly becomes a huge area. If they were still under power but no electronics, then well its a super mega huge area...  



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinewingbuff From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2013, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 months 3 weeks ago) and read 94842 times:

But even with whatever currents in that area, at least one boat would've stumbled upon some piece of debris. The Gulf of Thailand, where the plane went missing, is not that big. At least not as big as the Atlantic, as was the case with AF447. And does it bug anybody else that the maximum depth there is less than 100m, yet still nothing has been found?

User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 94084 times:

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 21):

Would it report a waypoint like IGARI, when crossed? Although I'm not sure 9M-MRO crossed that point.

Maybe they took the ACARS last report, and the FR24 last report and decided it must be close?


User currently offline747megatop From United States of America, joined May 2007, 716 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 94116 times:

One of the countries involved should probably deploy an aircraft carrier. It probably would be faster to swarm the sea/ocean out there with aircraft from a floating platform out at sea than having land based aircraft head out from land, scour an area and head back to land.

25 flymeariver : This scenario raises a host of other questions if this is indeed the case. If the plane was in fact hijacked and flown back toward Malaysia without a
26 Speedbird128 : I never planned a SAR mission with a computer... I worked with aeronautical charts and whizwheels and rulers and pencils.. It might simplify some tas
27 LXLucien : Yes, as FR24 released this weekend, the data is very inaccurate! We know from the AF flight that in one minute, a lot of things can happen. Other que
28 Post contains links dtfg : I don't know if this had been mentioned in the previous parts but I have heard that the searching area will be expanded to as far as the Straits of Ma
29 hivue : Plus there are standard procedures for a flight crew to follow to get the airplane landed if it goes totally NORDO.
30 flyenthu : The experts keep repeating that there were data being transmitted from the aircraft until it went missing. I just heard Mary Schiavo an hour back on
31 SKAirbus : Remember we are still waiting information about the debris field the CX HKG-KUL flight saw off Vietnam. It appears outside the search area. Hopefully
32 LTC8K6 : What is the hijacker's point, going all the way back across and then ending up in the water anyway? Seems like if you bother to take over and then sta
33 questions : Would "military radar" or other tracking devices be able to provide data as to path and potential crash site or destination if the transponder was tu
34 Post contains links aftgaffe : I'm unclear on this but it appears like the latest potential debris field (reported here - http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0 - and
35 vfw614 : As far as I know, the only country in the area with an operational aircraft carrier is Thailand which has one that happens to be the smallest aircraf
36 Post contains links slinky09 : I don't know what to make of this, nineteen families claim to have called their relative's phones to hear ringing but no answer: http://www.ibtimes.co
37 FltAdmiralRitt : WHAT ABOUT A VERY SOPHISTICATED LIFE INSURANCE PLOY. Some Things that point this way. 1) The perpetrator would want to have authorities NOT find an in
38 SLCPilot : The captain has been talked about. Do we know anything at all about the FO? The ability to disappear and fly the aircraft for some time is a skill tha
39 Pellegrine : This is what I am alluding to, if in fact the airplane crashed in the Andaman Sea. There are few reasons why the pilots would turn upwards of 120 deg
40 DTW2HYD : Absence(as of now) of large debris field could be a sign of water landing and quickly sink. If it disintegrated at FL350 or went into deep dive there
41 Post contains links michi : There is an update on avherald: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
42 SpaceshipDC10 : Not only family members but crew members too. To this, Dunleavy replied that MAS was calling the mobile phones of the crew members as well, which wer
43 IADCA : I think there are a lot easier ways to run an insurance scam than that, and many of them don't involve killing hundreds of innocent people (or even y
44 wingbuff : A/C are not knife-sharp, water is stilll surface, and any impact with it would've still resulted in some destruction. And another thing, the Gulf in
45 BaconButty : Harsh. Did Steve Fossets disappearance make the US authorities "unequipped"? They have limited data, they can't just magic it up. AF447 surface wreck
46 flyenthu : Nick Robertson on CNN is reporting right now that someone by the name of Mr. Khadem Ali (spelling ?) purchased the two tickets for two travelers that
47 Post contains images airbazar : This has been my theory from day 1.
48 Post contains images ah414211 : The same claims were made when Air France 447 disappeared, and we know how that ended up, so it really doesn't mean anything.....Sadly, I think it's
49 na : And there´s no indication it was not. The airline simply says no comment we´re investigating (according to flightglobal), which to me sounds more l
50 pvjin : I remember someone claimed just the same in case of AF447. Not sure if it would really mean the phones are intact somewhere.
51 Post contains images BuyantUkhaa : If the point where the heading seems to have changed to 40deg is IGARI, then that may not be much of a lead as it seems it took a turn towards 037deg
52 hoya : US 1549 stayed intact when it hit the Hudson. It floated for a while too. Then again, it was a mostly controlled water landing, and the pilots had so
53 FoxBravo : All true, unless the radar showed it going down into the sea somewhere in that area. Primary radar, in theory, should show the location and path of a
54 trnswrld : The phone ringing thing is kind of interesting, but do we know for certain what would happen when you call a cell phone that has been destroyed? Do th
55 rcair1 : This is essentially a suicide hijacking. The movie Airport aside, most suicidal people are more focused on themselves and either represent a plea for
56 flymeariver : But without a transponder, how would they know the plane was going "down" per se, since altitude data is transmitted via Mode C transponder. Without
57 Finn350 : Here is a short re-cap of the alternatives based on theories presented earlier postings in no particular order: 1) Catastophical structural or mechani
58 747megatop : India & China also i think have operational aircraft carriers (http://www.forbes.com/sites/donaldkirk/2013/11/17/soviet-era-aircraft-carrier-buoy
59 FlyPIJets : Must be in the to rule out someone answering a phone. The ringing is not significant, but, someone answering the phone would be.[Edited 2014-03-10 10
60 vnangia : I posted this in pt. 9 regarding some terrorism suggestions, but I think it got clipped. I think there’s a lot of really imaginative theories and s
61 questions : According to several sources: Fariq Ab Hamid, 27 years old; started working for MH in 2007; had 2,763 flying hours.
62 apfpilot : I didn't see this new update from Avhearald discussed: Hong Kong's Air Traffic Control Center reported on Mar 10th 2014 around 17:30L (09:30Z) that an
63 sassiciai : As much as I think it unlikely, dont forget the precedent of the JAL B747 that had a sudden failure of the rear bulkhead that destroyed the controls
64 FlyPIJets : I take that back - if the cell handset rings, then you can tell what tower contacted it. However, just because you hear the "ringing" sound when you
65 antskip : If it was a deliberate act of deception to "hide" the plane, what would that a skilled professional aviator do to avoid detection, and where would the
66 KochamLOT : I do not wish to cause trouble with this next speculation or thought and if this is not in the realm of possibility please kindly tell me so.. days pr
67 Mark2fly1034 : there was a picture that was tweeted that was linked in the last thread that may be it. That area may be in radar coverage not sure what they have in
68 Post contains images JimJupiter : It's in this or the last thread. [Edited 2014-03-10 10:31:27]
69 dtfg : In other words, if the plane crashed in the Strait of Malacca, it must had turned back and flown all the way through Malaysia or Thailand soil withou
70 dtfg : Or, if the plane crashed in the Strait of Malacca, it must had turned back and flown all the way through Malaysia or Thailand soil without being dete
71 DTW2HYD : But most primary surveillance radars have a range limit of 50NM from shore. So if plane travelled beyond this range, primary radar is of no use. Mari
72 FlyingSicilian : Persians and Black people do live in Europe. Mario Balotelli comes to mind for example.
73 na : Suicide would be relatively easy if the other pilot is on the toilet. It happened several times before. Would explain the sudden loss of transponder,
74 wxmeddler : Alright, so lets assume the pilot turned off the ADS-B and the ACARS then descended to under 1000 ft off the deck to avoid radar detection. How much
75 SpaceshipDC10 : I guess at this point in this "strange" situation, they better try everything that could in a way or another lead to a clue rather than miss it.
76 FoxBravo : Unless they were able to track the object up to a certain point/area, and then it "disappeared" even from the primary radar. Not conclusive, but it c
77 wingbuff : The hundreds of boats' failure to find any debris in such shallow waters is puzzling. The 777 is too big a bird to ditch in the sea without some parts
78 LTC8K6 : It's pitch dark over water, what if you misjudge the descent? Also, you are probably going to crash if you go anywhere near Malaysia at 1K feet in th
79 JimJupiter : But there would be no reason for a suicidal pilot to escape radio/radar coverage and continue flying. The longer this goes, the more likely somebody w
80 redflyer : Other pilot does not have to be incapacitated, only locked out of the cockpit. Perhaps after reaching cruise one pilot left to use the toilet. Pilot
81 SLCPilot : I have no idea. The aircraft I fly is a different make/model/mission than a 777-200. I have no doubt somebody here will give a pretty good estimate i
82 LTC8K6 : Might want to use the plane as a weapon. Crash it into a building or a stadium full of people or some other target.
83 spacecadet : No, they go straight to voicemail if a tower doesn't have the phone located and active. The fact that a phone is ringing means the phone is located a
84 Post contains links danj555 : http://i.imgur.com/uzIDqhf.jpg Aircraft debris spotted. additional article with more info. check highlighted text. http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c
85 Mark2fly1034 : The range might be a little long but that does not explain how he would avoid being seen by a boat. if the phones are connected why have they not bee
86 nm2582 : 32 minutes according to wikipedia (not the best source, I know) and it would not have stayed in the air even that long had it not been for the crew e
87 JimJupiter : I think in this case, "suicide" would not be the right term anymore... Futile speculation anyway.
88 gatorman96 : I hate to add to the speculation, but it's all we have at the moment. I am unable to get past the fact that plane was lost near the beginning of the c
89 slinky09 : Been posted a few times, no identification of what it is so premature to say aircraft.
90 liquidair : Such a confusing case... I wish Mandala could give us an update on what he knows (take the hint!) seriously, at this point nothing can be ruled out. M
91 Post contains links 747megatop : Details of the search area - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26514556
92 spacecadet : That's why I said it's not clear from the reports I've seen if they're ringing and then going to voicemail, or ringing and then getting a message tha
93 EXMEMWIDGET : Agreed. Traveling on a stolen passport would raise too many red flags, especially ones that had been stolen 1-2 years ago. I would assume that most t
94 na : I think the mobilphone issue is a myth. makes no sense at all to me. I agree. To smuggle two fake passports plus a bomb and/or weapons on board of a
95 FltAdmiralRitt : Well, I am assuming most well to do people with families have LIFE INSURANCE, or is this not used in China/Malaysia. Does not that mean that a large n
96 poolkeeper : The frequency used for a mobile is very high (from 450MHz to 2.1GHz depending on country and technology) and have no change to penetrate water so if
97 Post contains images JimJupiter : Apparently, some people here watch a lot of TV.
98 polnebmit : The fact that no debris has been found could also be the simple fact that we’re concentrating our sights on the wrong area. The rescuers are coverin
99 btfarrwm : What about using the GPS receivers in these phones to try and locate the wreckage?
100 DTW2HYD : If these phones are Chinese pax, phones were already roaming(last register carrier) in Malaysia before they were turned turned off. So depends on how
101 Mikey711MN : Good point. Through at least indirect reasoning, the Malaysians may have detected something anomolous on ground radar, which may be withheld for the
102 SQ452 : After nearly 72 hours, I have to say I -and many on this forum- are relatively shocked that they haven't found a single trace of this plane yet. Given
103 neutrino : That's not the smallest aircraft carrier but the largest private yacht in the world. Seriously, due to shortage of funding, the จักรีนฤ
104 qantas077 : most sensible post in 10 pages! The plane is undoubtedly in the gulf but it's more a matter of where, anything else being spoken is nonsense.
105 nm2582 : If they did this, you'd likely have quite a few reports from fishing ships about a large, noisy aircraft flying at very low altitude...not to mention
106 747megatop : Does anyone have word on whether satellite imaging is being leveraged to scan for debris? I haven't seen that in the news yet but if satellites can be
107 Web500sjc : and looking on the other side of the peninsula is just odd, it means they saw the airplane go over the peninsula on radar, or there are parts of the
108 jreuschl : Question.. could a hijacker turn off the radar so the plane couldn't be tracked anymore?
109 Halophila : It's interesting to note that the US Air Base in Diego Garcia (site of drone deployment for missions over that region) is located about 3K miles on a
110 LTC8K6 : You can turn off the transponder, but primary radar can still see you. This happened with the 9/11 hijackings. No identifiers, but you can still see
111 goosebayguy : Its beginning to look like a case for the X Files! Quite an exceptional case. I do wonder if anyone is searching overland at all? Even there though th
112 Post contains links flyingturtle : It is really straightforward to ask the telecom companies over which antenna(s) the mobile phones had their last contact. Call the NSA, their phone nu
113 United787 : If they are unable to find a debris field, then I think this is a plausible possibility. Could also be really savvy hijackers instead of the pilots.
114 LTC8K6 : Well, it didn't raise any red flags, apparently. It seems to be a fairly common thing.
115 liquidair : are you suggesting that might have been a potential target, if there's a hijacking at play? It wouldn't have got anywhere near there, surely.
116 SQ452 : Wouldn't it make sense then to just get all the mobile numbers of the passengers and just cross-reference as there usually are a couple of people tha
117 Pellegrine : Important to note that JAL123 search and rescue did not know about the bulkhead issue, that was uncovered during the investigation. MAS370 SAR would
118 Post contains links wingbuff : An article in the Malaysian Insider states that Malaysian ATC lost contact with MH370 at 1.30, but in Vietnam it went off radar at approximately 2.40,
119 hivue : It doesn't require a submarine to detect acoustic signals underwater. They likely will have to find the airplane before the "pingers" will be of any
120 hivue : I believe someone previously pointed out there is a time zone change involved.
121 slinky09 : I believe there is an hours time difference between Malaysia and Vietnam, and this accounts for that discrepancy.
122 Halophila : Who knows, at this stage anything is possible. If I may add my 2 cents as an oceanographer: It is really hard to see anything out there because of th
123 s5daw : Well there could be a very simple explanation: 1. They must give the impression they are "doing all they possibly can" to the public 2. The fleet can
124 qantas077 : how on earth would a hijacker get into the flight deck? without the communication being made by the tech crew?
125 vnangia : Actually, it doesn't. Due to certain political vagaries, though Vietnam is to the east of Malaysia, Vietnam is one time zone behind Malaysia. I.e.: 2
126 EMA747 : Just out of interest is there a way for the cabin crew/pilot outside of the cockpit to contact the outside world without being in,or using,the comms i
127 Post contains links LTC8K6 : A senior police official told Reuters that people armed with explosives and carrying false identity papers had tried to fly out of Kuala Lumpur in the
128 flyingturtle : Watch the movie "Con Air", there is an example of exchanging transponders... but... this... is... Hollywood. I'm sure the investigators also use this
129 neutrino : Don't know about the other countries, but Singapore has sent a submarine support & rescue vessel equipped with divers and apparatus (including a
130 LTC8K6 : The contact was lost at around 1:30, the fact that contact was lost was officially reported at around 2:40.
131 thunderboltdrgn : yeah, Malaysia and Singapore is one hour ahead of Vietnam.
132 Post contains images jasondn : I have been look at that the pictures being sent to the press of the search personnel and pilots in the looking out the windows scouring the sea for d
133 tortugamon : Are we sure the transponder is lost? Could it be that it just does not work from under the water without an underwater sensor to read the ultrasonic
134 United787 : One scenario: One of the pilots needs to use the bathroom and when he exits or enters the flight deck, hijacker(s) forces his/her way into the cockpi
135 AT : One relatively easy precaution for the future is to absolutely require two crew members in the cockpit at all times. If one has to leave to use the f
136 IAHWorldFlyer : I've read most of these posts, but not all, so pardon if this has been asked already--- Could it be possible for there to be an onboard fire like on S
137 na : One word: contrast. The weather seems absolutely perfect for a SAR mission to me.
138 dean : Vietnam and Thailand are in the Indochina Time Zone (UTC +7 hours), no time difference between the two countries. Edit: sorry, mixed up the two count
139 SKAirbus : Yep, that's correct: Malaysia is GMT + 8 and Vietnam is GMT + 7. Very odd... so if that article is correct (based on local times) the aircraft would
140 s5daw : Could be perception due to lack of dynamic range of the camera. The photos are metered for the interior of the plane, which is many f-stops darker th
141 Logos : Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to take out life insurance on a third party and name yourself as beneficiary. For the obvious reasons, the in
142 Finn350 : I meant the loss of the transponder and ADS-B in-flight, i.e. the last known location. Either someone switched it off or there was a major structural
143 YULWinterSkies : I'd be curious to know why he is an established customer. Human trafficker? That 2 (or more) pax seeking asylum in Europe were on board would then be
144 btfarrwm : CNN is now reporting a group called the "China Martyr's Brigade" has claimed responsibility for the crash.
145 A320FlyGuy : I've never heard of the China Martyr's Brigade....Even in the event that this was (heaven forbid) an act of terrorism, it still begs the question "Wh
146 JimJupiter : Apparently, they wrote a couple of emails to newspapers. But authorities don't give them much credibility. (It's somewhere in theese threads above.)
147 liquidair : means nothing, not until authorities verify. There must be a hundred whack jobs claiming responsibility...
148 David L : The head of the investigating team explained why they've extended the search to the west coast, if not yesterday then at least several hours ago: i.e.
149 Post contains images Speedbird128 : Because ATC give directs. As I said way up, there is likely only a trickle of information coming out to us. And that's how it should be. I fail to se
150 ComeAndGo : Right ! And then . . . and then fly the plane down to treetop level, so it's off radar, Then they fly the plane to Yemen and park it on some runway s
151 AADC10 : This may have been covered earlier but the search function works as well as ever. I noticed in the articles I have read about MH370 (not that I have r
152 ideekay : I have the feeling that something is totally wrong here. It must be a very good planned mission. If 19 phones were ringing, why can't nobody locate th
153 Post contains links CptHaddock : Strange moment to join the Anet community, after so many years of lurking. Saw the picture of a field debris spotted off the eastern coast of Vietnam,
154 pvjin : A phone of an AF447 pax did appear to ring although it was actually on bottom of the Atlantic. So that proves nothing, just because it appears to rin
155 hivue : Actually that's already done in many places. The problem it is intended to solve is with locked cockpit doors that cannot be opened from outside what
156 Post contains images hivue : Hypoxia will cause that. Oh, and welcome to anet![Edited 2014-03-10 12:19:06]
157 LTC8K6 : They'd have to shut off the transponder, other comms like ACARS, and also hide from primary radars.
158 liquidair : The fact that the authorities have identified one of the two fake passport passengers must mean they were known to the authorities. That definitely po
159 JimJupiter : That report has already been proven wrong, iirc.
160 DocLightning : If this is terrorism they're doing a horrible job of it. Terrorism isn't just done for amusement. It's done to terrify people into complying with a d
161 Post contains links DJM18 : CNN has a story on the tickets purchased for the passengers with stolen passports. Clearly the link to Iran is interesting and may or may not be relev
162 michi : The debris field spotted by another aircraft is rather interesting (see avherald). None of the speculative theories on this board would be an explanat
163 ideekay : Well thats true, still hoping that they would be at some friendly airfield..
164 rcair1 : Very unlikely. There is no single 'switch' you can click on a 777 that will render it unflyable I think all the discussion about mobile phones is a r
165 Post contains images mandala499 : Typical for tropical shallow waters. Been chased by the media again today... and just as I was reading part 8, it was closed, by the time I run throu
166 hivue : Or it could be they want to drive anetters crazy (they're doing a pretty good job of that).
167 huxrules : Anyone know what make and model of ELT Boeing puts into their 777? Being that we just had one catch fire in a 787 I wonder if MH has inspected theirs.
168 lugie : I don't know... of course pretty much NOTHING can be 100% excluded currently, however I doubt it was a fire. Why? because in that case it would have
169 solarflyer22 : That's what I was wondering. What is the battery life on the ELT? I thought it was only 30 days.
170 rcair1 : The aircraft would not become hypoxic, just the people. So you'd still see secondary radar, return, etc. We know it includes Honeywell since Boeing a
171 KELPkid : Anyone know why AvHerald is down? Is it from us a.nutters, or are they getting a DDOS attack?
172 billreid : phone ringing makes sense. If you call a phone the network searches for the phone and it rings. Usually the caller hears two rings before the receiver
173 E195 : another theory Could they have Hypoxia, (hellas air years ago..?) and when realised accidentally knocked off communications (is that possible at all?)
174 456 : It's working here (Netherlands) at the moment.
175 Burkhard : Is the following impossible.? A fire in the cockpit destroyed communication Equipment. Pilots tried to turn back and got unconscious or killed by the
176 lnglive1011yyz : Well, Ethiopian 702 proved how that's easily done, and that was less than a month ago.. - wait until the other crew member leaves the cockpit for a r
177 ejl : Hi... For what it is worth...Landsat8 (en earth orbiting satellite) took pictures of more or less the flight path of MH-370. The pictures were taken o
178 davs5032 : The idea that the culprit turned off all transponders to disappear from secondary radar and descended to a low altitude to fly thousands of miles awa
179 SKAirbus : The ATC mumbling sounds like it could bear a clue... sounds possible that the pilots were drifting in and out of consciousness. That could be caused b
180 virgin744 : Thanks for that info. And welcome aboard!
181 washingtonflyer : The airfare was a shade over $600.00. Which class do you think that would put one in?
182 anstar : I think most airlines have procedures in place to have communications with the flight crew at regular intervals to prevent this sort of thing happeni
183 n729pa : But the aircraft still had radio contact and was able to send out a distress signal. I have to confess I thought of both SR111 and AF447, and MS990.
184 CPDC10-30 : It's discounted economy. At least two bulkheads between the pax and the cockpit.
185 ideekay : I don't say that people are still keeping the phones, maybe the terrorists collected the phones and let them on, but don't ask me for what reason.
186 s5daw : Does not explain lose of secondary radar... There's no point really in trying to figure what caused the disappearance before we get to know the outco
187 David L : Except that story was debunked yesterday.
188 indcwby : And reports that an Iranian purchasing both tickets doesn't set off any bells?
189 lnglive1011yyz : I'm just saying - why go to such lengths to hide your plane, and then expose yourself via the cellular networks. All those phones would be ringing fr
190 CALTECH : If the fuselage remained intact after impact with the sea, it would leave very little debris. Which it is kinda sounding like. If the fuselage came a
191 pvjin : Why would an Iranian want to bomb down a Malaysian airliner? I don't think it should be any more alarming than an American buying those tickets.
192 LTC8K6 : No, he is apparently well known to the ticket agent and commonly brokers tickets for a cut. He's a sort of salesman.[Edited 2014-03-10 13:02:27]
193 marosbts : You know not every single Iranian citizen is a terrorist? It may not have anything to do with the crash and those 2 persons are just immigrants tryin
194 fraapproach : With respect to the ringing cellphones: Wouldn't it be possible to make a pretty precise location of the phones by the location of the cellphone tower
195 vnangia : Not ... really, no. I mean I know the US government/media narrative is that Iran is just chockful of terrorists, but that's not exactly true. Besides
196 virgin744 : Apparently he had been there previously and was known to the travel agent. Seems peculiar that someone would become known to the travel agent if they
197 Redsand187 : I would find it hard to believe that they would have been able to collect every device on the plane. Surely one person would have forgotten a device
198 ElectricZ : I've scanned through many of these threads but haven't seen it discussed... What are the ocean currents like near/around the last point of contact? It
199 poolkeeper : That a phone is ringing does not mean that the call is routed through. The ring signal is generated by the network and not the phone. If a mobile pho
200 CPDC10-30 : Or a Chinese one, for the sake of argument. It really seems to me that one or more countries does have more information, whether it be radio transmis
201 Post contains links LTC8K6 : http://bigstory.ap.org/article/how-c...n-jet-disappear-ocean-its-not-hard Azharuddin said the search includes northern parts of the Malacca Strait, on
202 ideekay : Thats exactly what I mean, what if this a false path? Im really thinking that the plane is not in that area where they are currently searching..
203 Post contains links aftgaffe : The WSJ is reporting that the latest debris sighting (the sighting by airliners flying off the east coast of Vietnam) is not from MH 370. http://strea
204 Web500sjc : well its not on the surface where they're looking. it wither means everything is staying on the seafloor, or it is somewhere else. since there is no
205 lnglive1011yyz : That certainly is a huge development but not surprising. Back-channel communications happen without the media / us av-enthusiasts knowing sometimes..
206 FoxBravo : Exactly. I strongly suspect that there is some radar or other data, which hasn't been fully divulged for one reason or another, indicating that the a
207 aftgaffe : I saw this on twitter about the currents, for whatever that's worth: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/443068603424702464/photo/1
208 Post contains links lnglive1011yyz : http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...sia-airlines-idUSBREA291D520140310 Just caught this - No Automated Messages from Missing Boeing Jet : Sources 1
209 aircatalonia : Can anyone confirm this information? - 5 bags or more removed from the hold - Off chocks: 16:41 - STD: 16:35 Doesn't this sound unusually fast? I mean
210 Mark2fly1034 : Ok so lets say there was a total loss of electrical power which would explain why ACARS,CPDCL,COMMs,Trasponder... etc was off, and they also had hypox
211 Post contains images David L : Hmm... that's different to what was said earlier.
212 LTC8K6 : Perhaps the bags were never loaded?
213 art : Regarding the 2 suspects using stolen being responsible for bringing the aircraft down theory, why travel on a stolen passport which might be detected
214 JimJupiter : So, this an indication that the aircraft should be more or less in the area of its last reported position, right? Which roughly translates to: We sti
215 rcair1 : This would not cause the a/c to stop sending transponder signals. Irrelevant - the a/c would not stop sending transponder signals. The ringing phones
216 flyingturtle : Expats sometimes have strange jobs. I know a Swissman in Spain who makes a living selling mobile phone contracts. As an Iranian, he might have good c
217 LTC8K6 : That's a lot of failure. 2 engine gens, 2 backup gens, APU, battery, RAT.
218 Web500sjc : or a fire in the EE bay?
219 anstar : So given the Malaysians are now searching in West Malaysia and say the plane may have turned around... what are the possibilities the planes did start
220 shamrock604 : Could simply have been 5 connecting bags where there was some doubt if the pax would make the connection, and therefore were held back until the last
221 LTC8K6 : Most likely wouldn't be sudden.
222 lugie : Maybe because they were already brought into connection with terrorist activities beforehand and their names are on no-fly lists so the chance to get
223 indcwby : Well, based on media reports... (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-mystery-passengers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) "On Monday, Thai
224 klebert : If these questions have been answered before my apologies, but this thread is simply too large to go through all of it, I scanned only the last couple
225 Web500sjc : I was thinking that a fire in the EE bay might be the answer. It is below the cockpit, it could incapacitate the pilots with fumes, distract the pilo
226 gatechae : If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a
227 damirc : Guys the phones ringing was explained before, and can confirm since I occasionally have to deal with SIP trunks and the like ^^. The ringing tone is n
228 SKAirbus : If it was a suicide mission, why would you care? If you are going to kill yourself and take everyone with you, there is no point in hiding the fact.
229 flyingturtle : But you're pretty near-sighted for such a bold statement. Isn't it possible that the Iranian knew that the passports were stolen, but that he also kn
230 deltacto : I have read all the threads, but I may have missed a few posts, so I apologize if this has been discussed; How can someone determine which passenger
231 Web500sjc : not if the airplane crashed at a shallow angle- like a ditching angle. If no one was at the controls and the CG stayed consistent, then the airplane
232 rcair1 : Yes. The crew can turn off everything - and must be able to isolate any electrical component for fire protection reasons. Remember - most ATC is seco
233 LTC8K6 : It might be, but it would have to have been quick to blaze up. They disappear after only about 40 minutes with no apparent deviations or altitude cha
234 SpaceshipDC10 : I've used that example time and time again since MH370 disappeared, however when SR 111 hit the sea near Halifax in a 20 degrees nose down attitude a
235 Spacepope : It is doubtful the plane would have reached the sea floor with the initial impact, no matter what angle it hit the surface.
236 JimJupiter : They might take footage from the boarding procedure, then substract all the properly identified passengers (with the help of families etc.)?
237 flyingturtle : 1. The government probably has all passport photos on file. 2. Next of kin can provide photographs. Davod
238 krje1980 : I have been lurking at these forums for many years, but do not post much. However, I thought I'd give my input as to what I think might have happened
239 Post contains images BaconButty : No it doesn't. They are clearly working on two hypothesis. The first is that the aircraft started descending at the last known position, and they've
240 pvjin : If whatever happened was indeed bad enough to disable ACARS I really wonder if FDR / CVR would have stayed operational... Can those be manually switch
241 345tas : "Things I can tell you and things I can't tell you". Judging by the events of the past few days, I'd guess there are things they can't tell us because
242 hivue : I believe the CVR (and possibly FDR) can be shut off by pulling a breaker on the flight deck. This has been used as support for suicide theories in t
243 A320FlyGuy : I was thinking the same thing...but that begs the question...shouldn't an ACARS message have been generated? When an aircraft like the 777 needs a pr
244 indcwby : But in a situation like this, and if it is determined that terrorism is the result of this case, then he could/would easily become a scapegoat for pr
245 aircatalonia : The fact that they are being investigated suggests to me that there isn't a straightforward explanation.
246 Post contains links 802flyguy : Patrick Smith on what is known so far: http://www.askthepilot.com/malaysia-airlines-flight-370/
247 flylku : Indeed. I was flying a Tri-Pacer (fabric and steel tubing, single engine) in 2000 over West Virginia when the transponder failed. We turned it off an
248 flyboy_se : Depending on the airline, gate noshow passengers should not cause a delay. I know all airlines have their own procedures. At my airline, -20 minutes
249 Post contains links and images StarAC17 : It would be seen on radar going in circles I presume. In the Helios crash in 2005 the passengers and crew were incapacitated but fighter jets were sc
250 gulfstream650 : It is worth pointing out that we have now seen two significant crashes of the 772 and twice (especially the last one (asiana)), the fuselages have rem
251 LTC8K6 : If you know the time a person checked in, you should be able to find them on the video fairly easily, then backtrack them through the airport.
252 A320FlyGuy : Indeed they can be shut off - Silk Air 185 was a case of pilot suicide and the NTSB believed that the FDR and CVR was shut off intentionally. When th
253 Post contains images LTC8K6 : Did the spokesperson mean that no ACARS messages at all were sent, or that nothing but routine messages were sent? I want to read "no signals" as mean
254 indcwby : Don't forget about Speedbird 38, but I don't know if you want to label it as significant as Asiana's.
255 345tas : "IRANIAN LINK TO VANISHED JET" https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/443130381106020352/photo/1 Oh gosh. I also got a phone alert from Israel's suppos
256 mila : Could it be a suicide crash where whoever did fly it wanted it to be hard to find in order to avoid the shame for the family of the pilot flying, tran
257 LTC8K6 : How could you miss an intact 777 fuselage in ~50 meters of water though?
258 DTW2HYD : What you explained is a very likely scenario but what would have prevented crew/pax from leaving the plane. Were they incapacitated? Did it sink like
259 747megatop : Whew, we have already gone through 10 parts of this thread; each part with 250 posts without a single piece of debris being found. If i recall correct
260 Triple Seven : Wondering if anyone considered, if logical, of using SOSUS to possibly point the way to the plane's water impact point?
261 Post contains images ideekay : I think someone mentioned earlier that they had fuel for 7.4 hours.. so I made this calculation: 7.4 hours * 420 nm (is around that what a airplane fl
262 SpaceshipDC10 : I don't know at which time the debris were first seen, but with the case of AF447 there was at least the burst of data sent to Paris or Toulouse by t
263 wjcandee : Wow!!! Looks like Scary Mary has been reading my posts on this site about the Bojinka Plot!!! "The incident has some similarities to such incidents in
264 DUSdude : With all due respect, that is simply untrue. We have seen two low speed crash landings where the aircraft basically stalled at very low speed. Most a
265 holzmann : The problem with wonderful tools like military satellites and SOSUS, etc. is that their capabilities are top secret. No one is suppose to know just ho
266 StarAC17 : They had fuel for 7.4 hours at cruise altitude and if they were at cruise altitude and off course then someone likely would have paid attention to th
267 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : Hi All, Part 11 has been created. Please continue the conversation here MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22
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