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Virgin America To Pull Out Of SJC  
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14190 times:

After a little over a year of launching San Jose, CA VX has decided to end SJC-LAX service effective May 14 2014 which will be the last flight. Press release should be out shortly.

Virgin America to pull out of San Jose, ending 'Nerd Bird' flight

[Edited 2014-03-14 11:35:15 by SA7700]

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25391 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14095 times:

Unfortunately no surprise. Route has been sluggish since the start. Airport even through in another $100,000 marketing money in November.

Crowded market, and planes can be used for something more productive.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13839 times:

Their landing fees were waved for one year so the timing is right. I had heard their week day flights averaged 30-35%.


John@SFO
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5434 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13576 times:

Speaking of VX cancelling service, can someone clarify the date that they officially pulled out of ANC? I assume it was around September of last year but does anyone know when the VX season (and the route) actually ended? Thanx in advance.

bb


User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13521 times:
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Sad to hear - while it was an over saturated route, QX/AS also pulling out in June. Just DL, AA, UA and WN to duke it out. I was really pulling for them - flew on the inaugural SJC-LAX last May.


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5434 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13437 times:

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 4):
QX/AS also pulling out in June.

Interesting, I hadn't seen this mentioned anywhere here on A.net. Thanks for sharing that fact.

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 4):
Just DL, AA, UA and WN to duke it out.

"Just"?   I guess AS blinked first, but to have a second withdrawal shortly thereafter is kind of unique...

bb


User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13409 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):

Speaking of VX cancelling service, can someone clarify the date that they officially pulled out of ANC? I assume it was around September of last year but does anyone know when the VX season (and the route) actually ended? Thanx in advance.

bb

ANC was seasonal service, so September sounds about right. It looks like that route isn't returning this year.

How many flights did they have to SJC? I'm assuming this capacity will go towards their anticipated DAL focus city..if they get the gates.


User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13341 times:
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They 4 during the week and 3 weekends. Southwest is now back to the only mainline.


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 13142 times:

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 4):
QX/AS also pulling out in June.

Interesting, Even with the Q400 and the connection options in LAX, AS is pulling the plug as well.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 6):
ANC was seasonal service, so September sounds about right. It looks like that route isn't returning this year.

Didnt seem like VX had any cruise contracts at all and they dont fly freight i.e. fresh seafood like B6 and AS do into ANC so this route was bound to fail. If I recall B6 loves ANC because of all the $$$ to be made with freight which is why they even started ANC-SEA. I think VX will return to ANC some day. It is a great product to fly to gear up for a pleasant cruise around Alaska.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 2):
Their landing fees were waved for one year so the timing is right.

Sounds alot like YYZ

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 6):
I'm assuming this capacity will go towards their anticipated DAL focus city

Makes sense but for the meantime expect the aircraft to be used on routes that are making money. Extra capacity from SFO/LAX to BOS/JFK seems to fit the bill until "pending" DAL is launched


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7192 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13043 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Thread starter):
After a little over a year of launching San Jose, CA VX has decided to end SJC-LAX service effective May 14 2014 which will be the last flight. Press release should be out shortly.

They are going to have to drop a lot more routes to use all these slots.


User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13022 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
They are going to have to drop a lot more routes to use all these slots.

Don't forget that they start receiving new aircraft again in 2015, schedules are normally reduced during the winter months..which is around the time they're supposed to take possession of the slots, maybe they're not at full utilization with their fleet (I don't know this for a fact), all of the routes out of DAL aren't supposed to begin right at first...so I wouldn't necessarily say they'll have to drop a lot more routes.

Who knows, maybe behind the scenes they're working to move up deliveries or lease another aircraft or two. When they deferred their aircraft deliveries, they didn't know these slots would be coming available. They must have had contingency plans in place incase opportunities like this came up.


User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12912 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 10):
all of the routes out of DAL aren't supposed to begin right at first...so I wouldn't necessarily say they'll have to drop a lot more routes.

   Cush has advised that DAL wont be at full operation until 5-6 months after launching which is right on que when they will be taking on more brand new A320 aircraft.


User currently offlineAirFiero From United States of America, joined Aug 2013, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12190 times:

I thought about starting one of those airport specific threads about SJC, but what little news there is seems to be bad. Either service being cut back or lost. Seems like SJC will never find its way out of being the ass end of Bay area aviation.

User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6764 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12052 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Unfortunately no surprise. Route has been sluggish since the start. Airport even through in another $100,000 marketing money in November.

Crowded market, and planes can be used for something more productive.

No surprise at all. For a flight that runs under an hour from takeoff to touchdown, passenger traffic is going to be driven by price, schedule, and loyalty programs. First class seating, TV's, and mood-lighting don't matter when your competition goes up to 10x daily for the same price.


User currently offlinea380787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2013, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12002 times:

oh well such is life ... i guess the planes for DAL/DCA/LGA expansion *has* to come from somewhere

i wonder if PSP will be the next victim


User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11802 times:

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
i wonder if PSP will be the next victim
PSP actually does well during its season and the JFK-PSP flight is solid as well. PSP is here to stay. PDX is the wildcard.

Press Release is now live

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...erica-to-pull-out-of-san-jose.html

[Edited 2014-03-14 09:01:48]

User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11745 times:

Quoting AirFiero (Reply 12):

I thought about starting one of those airport specific threads about SJC, but what little news there is seems to be bad. Either service being cut back or lost. Seems like SJC will never find its way out of being the ass end of Bay area aviation.

SJC numbers have been going back up for over a year. Still anemic IMHO. Seems ironic that this particular airport sits smack dab in the middle of the highest earning metro in the country yet suffers. ANA flight sounds like it's doing well and there's been talk of another Asian carrier in the works. SJC lives in the shadow of SFO, but there's still no reason it can't coexist and thrive. It is absolutely booming here-construction everywhere...


User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11663 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 15):
PSP actually does well during its season and the JFK-PSP flight is solid as well. PSP is here to stay. PDX is the wildcard.

I think it's interesting that a once weekly flight can be so successful, JFK-PSP. I wonder if they'll ever add frequency to this route.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17508 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 10):
Don't forget that they start receiving new aircraft again in 2015,

Where are they going to go? VX has pulled down their current flying quite a bit. There's plenty of slack now, never mind the SJC shells and who knows what else, plus any deliveries.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Where are they going to go? VX has pulled down their current flying quite a bit. There's plenty of slack now, never mind the SJC shells and who knows what else, plus any deliveries.

How much slack is there right now? They've recently added frequency on some of their transcons, and they're bringing back SFO-MCO.

And to answer your question regarding where their new aircraft will go...If they get the 2 DAL gates, they'll begin that focus city with their 4 DCA slots, 4 of their LGA slots, 2 flights to ORD and 4 flights each to LAX and SFO..replacing I believe the 3 daily flights to LAX and SFO to DFW. That's a lot of additional flying. Also there's 2 unaccounted for LGA slots, possibly going to ORD. They could also beef up some of their transcons, maybe add some point to point routes.

I wonder what they'll do if they don't get the DAL gates. Maybe open a DFW focus city..even though they said they wouldn't.

The next couple years is going to be interesting for Virgin America. I love that airline and hope they do well.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11337 times:
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Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 8):
Interesting, Even with the Q400 and the connection options in LAX, AS is pulling the plug as well.

Actually, those ARE the 2 reasons as to why AS/QX is pulling the plug. The operational reliability of the Q400 has been a challenge. And while the route offers great connection opportunities, the price of reaccomodating those connections when a flight cancels or goes on a long tech delay is costing AS much more than it makes. Sorry, but good riddance!

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinekilauea717 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10730 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 16):
ANA flight sounds like it's doing well and there's been talk of another Asian carrier in the works

What other Asian/International carriers would be possible at SJC?


User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10431 times:

Quoting kilauea717 (Reply 21):
What other Asian/International carriers would be possible at SJC?

I would imagine BR to TPE or OZ to ICN would do fine given the *A base in the catchment area. Considering there are already multiple dailies on multiple carriers out of SFO...


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10239 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 22):

I would change BR to CI. BR is going double daily into SFO and, IMO, a 77W would be too big. As for a Korean airline , I would say KE has a better shot. But, this is only hearsay and nothing is firm.



John@SFO
User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 958 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10140 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 15):
PSP actually does well during its season and the JFK-PSP flight is solid as well. PSP is here to stay. PDX is the wildcard.

While tomorrow's JFK-PSP is full, one week from tomorrow it's empty...seats are going for only $177 o/w. Ouch.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6764 posts, RR: 32
Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9970 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 16):
Seems ironic that this particular airport sits smack dab in the middle of the highest earning metro in the country yet suffers. ANA flight sounds like it's doing well and there's been talk of another Asian carrier in the works. SJC lives in the shadow of SFO, but there's still no reason it can't coexist and thrive. It is absolutely booming here-construction everywhere...

With no airline hub at SJC, it will continue to sit in the shadow of the marquee destination of the metro area. Even though Bay Area traffic can be horrible, it is worth driving to SFO in order to avoid a connection at one East Asian hub airport or another and get a non-stop. And for the Asian carriers, if they plan to offer a second flight to the region, it's probably more valuable and cost-effective to have a second frequency to SFO versus opening a new station at SJC.


User currently offlineOAKflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9386 times:

Hello,

Too bad the flight is cancelled. It seemed like a saturated market for that route. VX thought they could take on WN, DL & UA. Construction in an area does not necessarily mean an area is booming. Those constructed buildings could be built and sit empty. OAK & SJC have suffered since the economic recession of 2008. It looks like economic recovery has not happened.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 27, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9350 times:

SJC seemed like VX's type of market. I wonder if transcons to BOS/IAD and JFK (if they could get a slot or two) would have panned out better. LAX was a bloodbath waiting to happen.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 28, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 27):
SJC seemed like VX's type of market. I wonder if transcons to BOS/IAD and JFK (if they could get a slot or two) would have panned out better. LAX was a bloodbath waiting to happen.

I wondered that too. SJC-LAX seemed like a weird market for VX to get into when starting SJC. Seems like SJC to something east, particularly an undeserved, market would pan out much better.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 29, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8977 times:

It's too bad SJC doesn't work out for VX, but it's not like we weren't warned by official statements in news articles. Then there was the precedent of the similarly short-lived SNA experiment, not to mention the need to come up with capacity for all the new LGA and DCA service.

Anyone know how VX's LAX-LAS is doing?



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinecompliancecheck From United States of America, joined Nov 2013, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8742 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 20):
The operational reliability of the Q400 has been a challenge. And while the route offers great connection opportunities, the price of reaccomodating those connections when a flight cancels or goes on a long tech delay is costing AS much more than it makes. Sorry, but good riddance!

Not to hijack the thread but is the Q performing that badly for Horizon? I didn't realize it. Is it a specific set of recurring issues? How long has the plane been in service? It feels as if they should have achieved an acceptable level of reliability by now! Otherwise, why ditch the CR7?

As for VX, this is sad to hear but good for them for taking loss-making flying out of the network. I, too, am interested to see what happens in PDX.


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 31, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8410 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 27):
SJC seemed like VX's type of market.

So did SNA. However, it is important to see past the glamorous façade of these places and realize that between astronomical living costs and the incessant social pressure to keep up the Joneses, even high income individuals typically have little if any discretionary income to spend on air travel. Tech savvy workforces can conduct meetings and even close deals over the phone and internet rather than flying employees to headquarters or client sites. Those that do have the time and money to travel may tout the convenience of the local airport all day long, but then end up driving the extra hour or two to the nearby major airport because it offers better schedules, fares, and far more nonstop options. Simply put, why fly SJC-LAX-ORD when you can drive to SFO and fly nonstop to ORD from there?

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 27):
I wonder if transcons to BOS/IAD and JFK (if they could get a slot or two) would have panned out better.

Even B6 can only manage redeye JFK-SJC service and seasonal BOS-SJC service. That's it for transcons out of SJC. Washington, D.C. hasn't been served nonstop from SJC in years. I highly doubt VX would have had any success in this realm.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 27):
LAX was a bloodbath waiting to happen.

Yes, but VX knew they were getting themselves into a dog fight against AA (apathetic towards SJC), AS (inferior connectivity/FF base at LAX), UA (apathetic towards LAX), and WN (distracted by FL merger). DL did not make things any easier by also entering the fray, but VX had to see that one coming given their recent expansion moves at LAX.

Vastly superior product and a schedule that was great for O&D, as well as great for connectivity to virtually all of the nation's top markets via LAX. Can't blame them for trying!



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineshengzhurou From China, joined May 2010, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8154 times:

i thought VX service would be too premium for SJC LAX route


Sheng Zhu Rou
User currently offlineProst From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1045 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

Didn't most on this site think Delta would be the first to fold?

User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7993 times:
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It's too bad this market couldn't work out for VX. Too much capacity in the SJC-LAX-SJC market.I wouldn't be surprised to see UA drop their CRJ fiights eventually.

User currently offlineanonms From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7590 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 23):
I would change BR to CI.

BR has A332s that they could possibly deploy on this route, CI doesn't.



This is my signature.
User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7100 times:
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I'm surprised UA hasn't either. I only see one flight today on their schedule.


The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6948 times:
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I think Southwest, Delta and American will be the winners of this battle. In that order.

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinegabrielz From United States of America, joined May 2004, 78 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

SJC's problem is that really rich and powerful part of the valley (Palo Alto, mountain View) is close enough to sfo that any sjc advantage is moot. To whit, sfo is actually a very convenient airport for its size - you can go from curb to gate in just a few minutes - especially with tsa pre check. And, with a long time base of loyal UA FFPs, it will be hard to compete when all things are equal.

Of course, for Fremont and the far South Bay, sjc is much more convenient. And if your flight needs to be on time, it's way more reliable than sfo. But price is its leverage, and if it can't keep prices down, there isn't a ton of value it's bringing.

-G


User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

Quoting gabrielz (Reply 38):
SJC's problem is that really rich and powerful part of the valley (Palo Alto, mountain View) is close enough to sfo that any sjc advantage is moot.

The really funny thing there is, SJC's been doing a radio ad blitz lately trying to get people on the Peninsula to choose SJC over SFO for flights to southern California...even for cities (Woodside, Redwood City, for example) where SFO's actually closer.

"Why drive north to fly south?" is the tagline they've been using.

Like you said, for most of those people, the difference in distance is negligible...the only thing SJC really has going for it is that it doesn't have the fog/delay problems that SFO has...

Sad to see VX pull out, but I'd be lying if I said I was surprised...



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 40, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 27):

SJC seemed like VX's type of market. I wonder if transcons to BOS/IAD and JFK (if they could get a slot or two) would have panned out better. LAX was a bloodbath waiting to happen.

I am not surprised that VX did not enter a transcon market, but instead to try and grow a flyer base with a low yield, short hop, funnelling anyone wanting to go East on VX via LAX.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 15):
PDX is the wildcard.

How so? I am curious what resources you used to come up with that statement? Is this a rumor or a guess?

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 19):
If they get the 2 DAL gates, they'll begin that focus city with their 4 DCA slots, 4 of their LGA slots, 2 flights to ORD and 4 flights each to LAX and SFO..replacing I believe the 3 daily flights to LAX and SFO to DFW. That's a lot of additional flying. Also there's 2 unaccounted for LGA slots, possibly going to ORD. They could also beef up some of their tran-scons, maybe add some point to point routes.

I was under the impression the aircraft for DAL were coming from new deliveries scheduled later this year. Do you really think that VX will jump into the ORD-LGA market with one r/t a day?

Quoting kilauea717 (Reply 21):
What other Asian/International carriers would be possible at SJC?

Any airline with a 787 that has a need to build a niche market up in SJC. SJC is always going to be in the shadow of a much larger neighbor, just like SAN & LAX, PBI/FLL & MIA, PDX & SEA, BDL & NYC or BOS, the list goes on.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 31):
DL did not make things any easier by also entering the fray,

At this point I think DL is willing to jump into overcrowded markets, making every carrier try and match artificially low fares, see who bleeds cash the most expecting the smaller guys jump to jump ship first.

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 32):

i thought VX service would be too premium for SJC LAX route

Maybe, but there are those who F is a must, even for 45 minutes, I've had them as clients for 20+ years. But I would expect some would also be connecting in LAX to the VX system.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineUA735WL From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6139 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40):

That's called predatory pricing, and is illegal. If it was allowed, I'm sure UA would be at $50 R/T fares for all VX routes out of SFO...



"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
User currently offlinedbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 888 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6115 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40):
I was under the impression the aircraft for DAL were coming from new deliveries scheduled later this year. Do you really think that VX will jump into the ORD-LGA market with one r/t a day?

VX isn't supposed to take delivery of any new aircraft until next year..second half of 2015 I believe, unless that's changed.

Also, they got a total of 12 slots at LGA, for 6 round trips. 8 of those slots (4 round trips) will be used to DAL so 4 slots (2 round trips) are still unaccounted for. I was just guessing they'd use them to ORD, but it hasn't been announced yet, they could use them to Florida or BOS. I wonder if VX is waiting to see if they get the DAL gates before they decide where to use them, or at least announce where they use them.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 41):
That's called predatory pricing, and is illegal. If it was allowed, I'm sure UA would be at $50 R/T fares for all VX routes out of SFO..

I think there are enough examples of carriers jumping into markets, dropping fares and nothing has come against them for predatory pricing, a fare war is a fare war, nothing more. It seems DL is not afraid of bleeding a little to thin the heard on certain routes.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 42):
I wonder if VX is waiting to see if they get the DAL gates before they decide where to use them, or at least announce where they use them.

And what will VX do with DCA and LGA slots if they do not get DAL gates? I'd expect they have a plan B.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 44, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5656 times:
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Quoting UA735WL (Reply 41):
That's called predatory pricing, and is illegal. If it was allowed, I'm sure UA would be at $50 R/T fares for all VX routes out of SFO...

Sure, its illegal but it is extremely hard to prove.

The Department of Justice took on American - and lost - and Northwest was notorious for predatory pricing, and predatory action (Reno Air, e.g.), as in this long discussion:

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostpdf26/277.pdf

" Predatory Practices by Northwest Airlines"

A lot of those Northwest folk moved to Delta.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32784 posts, RR: 72
Reply 45, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5658 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 37):

I think Southwest, Delta and American will be the winners of this battle. In that order.

Why in "that order," and why not United?

Southwest, American and United carry the most local traffic on the route, in that order.



a.
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5301 times:
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Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 45):
Southwest, American and United carry the most local traffic on the route, in that order.

Curious if you have stats on connecting traffic via LAX? I'm just wondering if DL comes out ahead of UA in terms of connecting traffic?



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Thread starter):

Our flights to SJC do relatively well. WN

BTW, not to hijack the thread but any truth to rumors of VX breaking into BWI and MIA? They like us do FLL, But the rumor mill is always buzzing.

VX also does DCA but, DCA has it's limitations.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25391 posts, RR: 49
Reply 48, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40):
VX did not enter a transcon market, but instead to try and grow a flyer base with a low yield, short hop, funnelling anyone wanting to go East on VX via LAX.

You realize yields SJC-LAX are higher than anything it would generate going East right?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSocalApproach From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40):
ow so? I am curious what resources you used to come up with that statement? Is this a rumor or a guess?

It is more of a guess just from looking at the loads going up to PDX. It cannot even support service to LAX anymore. Sometimes it is only 2 flights/day on the A319. I would be lying though if I said the folks at PHL were not more concerned about their own station. I will go as far to say PHL would have never happened (at least not nearly as soon as it did) if EWR was captured first on the VX dartboard. But I still say PDX is the wildcard because VX still has the best product on SFO-PHL even though the schedule blows where as PDX-SFO product doesn't nearly matter as much as frequency and connectivity options.


User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2293 posts, RR: 38
Reply 50, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4846 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 8):
If I recall B6 loves ANC because of all the $$$ to be made with freight which is why they even started ANC-SEA.

I have heard this from numerous people.

Quoting compliancecheck (Reply 30):
Not to hijack the thread but is the Q performing that badly for Horizon?

I have heard she likes the hangar a bit but if it was such a lacking aircraft as you imply, they wouldn't be flying it.

atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (6 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 49):
It is more of a guess just from looking at the loads going up to PDX.

I know with 4 carriers on LAX-PDX, someone would have jumped anyway, so VX right after DL announces the route, jumps off. That was smart by VX since 1x daily would not compete. VX did add a SFO-PDX r/t for the LAX cancellation.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 48):
You realize yields SJC-LAX are higher than anything it would generate going East right?

Yup, but with 6 carriers flying the route, it's pretty obvious there are more financially advantageous places to utilize an aircraft.



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User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9426 posts, RR: 14
Reply 52, posted (6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 44):
A lot of those Northwest folk moved to Delta.

just a note, The SVP of network and CRO for Delta is a ex Delta guy.

Its not like Delta wasn't protective. Just ask jetBlue why they don't fly to ATL.......



yep.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26497 posts, RR: 75
Reply 53, posted (6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4444 times:

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 8):
Interesting, Even with the Q400 and the connection options in LAX, AS is pulling the plug as well.

The Q400 isn't competitive in a market where you have to compete with mainline.

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 8):

Sounds alot like YYZ

A route I WISH they would bring back.

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 36):

I'm surprised UA hasn't either. I only see one flight today on their schedule.


UA does a lot of stupid things



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13130 posts, RR: 100
Reply 54, posted (6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4266 times:
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Not too much of a surprise.

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 4):
Sad to hear - while it was an over saturated route, QX/AS also pulling out in June. Just DL, AA, UA and WN to duke it out.

It was a six way competition?!? Wow, how can anyone make money on that route?!? Even a four way competition will be tough.

Quoting shengzhurou (Reply 32):

i thought VX service would be too premium for SJC LAX route

I would agree. The 'venture capital' firms tend to try and economize whenever possible (e.g., cheap short haul flights).

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 42):
VX isn't supposed to take delivery of any new aircraft until next year..second half of 2015 I believe, unless that's changed.

I fully expect LGA to have higher yield and thus the lack of aircraft growth will push VX to cut less optimal routes. Which is a good thing... better to build up some cash.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 52):
Its not like Delta wasn't protective. Just ask jetBlue why they don't fly to ATL.......

How many flights did DL go up to on LAX-ATL?    I remember vans advertising something like 21 flights per day (local SuperShuttle airport vans were painted in a DL add to sell their LAX-ATL service...). DL put flights right before and after every B6 flight to ensure B6 didn't last on the route.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 51):
Yup, but with 6 carriers flying the route, it's pretty obvious there are more financially advantageous places to utilize an aircraft.

Understatement...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (6 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

Quoting OAKflyer (Reply 26):
Construction in an area does not necessarily mean an area is booming. Those constructed buildings could be built and sit empty. OAK & SJC have suffered since the economic recession of 2008. It looks like economic recovery has not happened.

It does around here. Costs are far too high for speculative building generally. Those who take the risk have very deep pockets. San Jose/SF Bay Area also has the nations highest median credit score so not too much keeping up with the Jones' around here. Google anything about growth, strongest office market, strongest housing market, hotel market, employment and income growth...the SF Bay Area is on fire.

I believe SJC at one time had the highest premium traffic percentage of any large city. Much of the pullback is of course due to the massive growth at SFO. I hope the SJC growth continues and I can't wait to see who the next foreign carrier will be...


User currently offlineOAKflyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (6 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 55):
I believe SJC at one time had the highest premium traffic percentage of any large city.

You said it best. At one time had. Had is in the past my friend. I live in the Bay Area, I live 3 miles near OAK. SFO has taken a lot of the domestic traffic from SJC & OAK. Jetblue choosing to expand at SFO and limit OAK. AA cutting back in SJC and focusing on SFO.

During the good times of the flourishing economy of the mid-2000s, OAK kept taking away LCC's from SFO. 14 Million passengers in the late 2000s for OAK and down to 10 Million now. One thing that would help SJC grow is public transportation like SFO and OAK (Airport Connector this year). Without greater infrastructure investment areas can be limited.

I have been down to the South Bay and the last few years, too many for lease signs and empty buildings for a booming area. Things will pick up. San Jose can't keep building like Emeryville (crazy building) and not build better infrastructure for it's residents.


User currently offlineSFOA380 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (6 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Correct - I know what tense I was using - LOL. My point is that it can come back again. The economy is actually far stronger now than it was during the period to which you refer. There's article on this very topic in today's business journal:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...a-departure-san-jose.html?page=all


User currently offlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

Quoting compliancecheck (Reply 30):
As for VX, this is sad to hear but good for them for taking loss-making flying out of the network. I, too, am interested to see what happens in PDX

Sorry to spoil it for you but PDX isn't going anywhere. In the past 5 months loads have really taken off. 3x daily PDX-SFO flights are now operating full (and its not even summer season yet). VX has really gained traction in the PDX market and I wouldn't be surprised to see LAX-PDX return soon.


User currently offlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

AS is also dropping their SJC-LAX this May. If SJC cannot convince carriers to start transcon flights in this economic environment, then it looks like they never will, IMO.


John@SFO
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3405 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 53):

UA does a lot of stupid things

They really do. SJC was all mainline before to DEN. Now what is it? One mainline a day with the rest being CRJ/CR7s? LAX is an after thought. I don't know how or why they keep it. Just like what UA did in the LAX-SEA/PDX market. Biggest excuse then was the retirement of the 733/735s, but they were still flying 757/A319/A320s on SEA in particular. Now those are flown with this horrid CRJs.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 54):
How many flights did DL go up to on LAX-ATL? I remember vans advertising something like 21 flights per day (local SuperShuttle airport vans were painted in a DL add to sell their LAX-ATL service...). DL put flights right before and after every B6 flight to ensure B6 didn't last on the route.

We can say the same about what UA did when VX started SFO-EWR/ORD. How many additional rotations did they add? Only thing is, VX is doing it's best to stick it out.

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 55):
I believe SJC at one time had the highest premium traffic percentage of any large city. Much of the pullback is of course due to the massive growth at SFO. I hope the SJC growth continues and I can't wait to see who the next foreign carrier will be...

  


User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2293 posts, RR: 38
Reply 61, posted (6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 60):
Now those are flown with this horrid CRJs.

I believe this route, SEA-LAX, is going mainline this summer.

atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3005 times:
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Quoting atct (Reply 61):
believe this route, SEA-LAX, is going mainline this summer.

atct

It shows one CR2 in the morning and a evening A319. That's in the UA LAX-SEA nonstop market.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3261 posts, RR: 5
Reply 63, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 62):
It shows one CR2 in the morning and a evening A319. That's in the UA LAX-SEA nonstop market.

A far cry from 1982, where all SEA/PDX-LAX flights on UA were mainline, 4 from PDX, 6 from SEA with one being a DC-10

http://www.departedflights.com/UA080182p50.html



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User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (5 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2264 times:
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Quoting legacyins (Reply 59):

AS is also dropping their SJC-LAX this May.

It's now moved forward to April 5th....

Tomas SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
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Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 64):
It's now moved forward to April 5th....

Did they move it forward because of booking dropping off markedly, or are they pulling the a/c for heavy maintenance, etc?


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 66, posted (5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1850 times:
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Quoting laca773 (Reply 65):
Did they move it forward because of booking dropping off markedly, or are they pulling the a/c for heavy maintenance, etc?

From what I understand, the route is costing them more than they're making. I'll just leave it a that!



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1685 times:
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Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 66):
From what I understand, the route is costing them more than they're making. I'll just leave it a that!

Is AS planning on adding anything out of SJC? I bet they could do good on something like SAN...and what's with the funky GDL schedules for March?



The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1560 times:
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Quoting mikesairways (Reply 67):
Is AS planning on adding anything out of SJC? I bet they could do good on something like SAN...and what's with the funky GDL schedules for March?


Nothing new that I've heard of....if you don't count SLC starting in mid June. Yes, SAN would be nice!

GDL is doing the yearly month of March runway paving project, which takes place during late evening/ealry morning hours daily except Saturday. It opens for landings at 0445. Due to the time change from daylight savings locally, AS would have to leave SJC after midnight to land in GDL after the runway opening, thus breaking SJC curfew and incurring excessive addtional costs. So it was decided to operate the flight Saturday night only and a select few daytime frequencies. It will be back to nightly ops on April 5th.

[Edited 2014-03-25 21:12:02]


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinemikesairways From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1440 times:
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That makes sense....and I've seen how heavy that flight goes out too.

I get why they are doing SJC-SLC as a way to stick it to DL, but i'm not so sure how long it will sustain, especially with the timing of the flights.

I certainly will miss seeing all the Q400's around here. I did SJC-SMF a few years ago before it ended. Too bad PSP hasn't come back this year.



The red zone is for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only, there is no stopping in the white zone...(Ai
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3076 posts, RR: 7
Reply 70, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1207 times:

Quoting mikesairways (Reply 69):
I did SJC-SMF a few years ago before it ended. Too bad PSP hasn't come back this year.

AS isn't resuming SJC-PSP? That flight has been on and off several times over the years. I think SJC-SMF was just part of a circle routing to BOI. I'm sure AS wasn't targeting the SJC-SMF market in itself.

How safe is SJC-SJD? That's another one they've discontinued and resumed.

But I agree that AS's expansion at SJC seems to have stagnated. In fact, they seem to be going the other direction. AUS, GEG, PSP and LAX have come and went. TUS went longer ago.

I'd really like to see AS/QX start SJC-SNA. WN has a total monopoly on that market and I think it gets a lot of traffic.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8543 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1131 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 43):
It seems DL is not afraid of bleeding a little to thin the heard on certain routes.

If that's what they do, then DL can be sued for triple damages AFAIK, and the plaintiffs can become very rich.

A fare war is not "just a fare war" when it is between a mega carrier and a small carrier. The mega carrier needs to be price at a break-even profitability level or higher. Otherwise, it can match, but cannot initiate low fares - that would be called predatory "dumping." And they could be sued or punished by DOJ.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 871 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1115 times:
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Quoting mikesairways (Reply 69):
I certainly will miss seeing all the Q400's around here.

The Q400s will still be serving SJC. Daily double to RNO and 1X to both BOI and PDX.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 70):
How safe is SJC-SJD?

SJC-SJD stays year round with some frequency adjustments in the summer. Lots of local plus thru/connecting traffic from up north.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 70):
AS isn't resuming SJC-PSP?

SJC hasn't seen PSP for the past 2 winter seasons. I beleive there's enough service from SFO to satisfy the Bay Area market.



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
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