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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74897 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Due to length part 29 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 30:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************


**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

***********************************************************************************************


SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT QUESTIONS AND SCENARIOS THAT HAS BEEN COVERED AND DISCUSSED IN PREVIOUS THREADS AND WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE OR APPLY, IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER, TOWARDS THIS CONVERSATION ANY LONGER. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

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Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-03-16 11:40:31]


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
318 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74983 times:

From previous thread

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 256):
I was looking at my pictures from 9M-MRF, a bit over a year ago and I don't see any seatback telephones.

But maybe MRO had them installed and MRF didn't.

Did you fly first class?



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinek83713 From Russia, joined Jul 2010, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74835 times:

Are there men among F/A at MH routes or only women? Do we know their deck lay-out? If there was an assault or threat a man more likely to try to resist...

User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2293 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74837 times:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 1):
Did you fly first class?

Nope. Y.

According to wiki, there is no F on MH's 777.

Pretty sure MH was male F/As.

[Edited 2014-03-16 11:33:33]

User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1322 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 75238 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Sanity Check - 3/16/14 16:00 Zulu
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

3/16/14 1600Z update.
The facts have not changed much, however speculation and discussion has shifted to potential human actors - including crew.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
I've added sections on: Cargo, Fuel, Conspiracies, Pilot related conspiracy. I've bolstered ACARS/SATCOM.
Edited to add Primary vs Secondary Radar discussion.

First a synopsis
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local. Confusion continues about if and when ACARS was turned off (See ACARS below)
The last comms were a normal hand-off from Malaysia to Vietnam control at about 1:30 local. It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" or "Go Broncos" (okay not that one) is very common for handoffs.
The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Straight and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Loci one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Loci two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
Best data I have is SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.

ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, primarily maintenance information, to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
The Malaysian prime minister said (quote):
"We can say with a high degree of certainty that the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was disabled just before the reached the East coast of Peninsula Malaysia".
No explanation of how that determination could be made has been released.
OPINION: The most likely conjecture I've seen is that ACARS was using VHF comms at that point and some indication of ACARS ceasing communication via VHF can be made. However, this has not been confirmed and it seems to me this could be consistent with ACARS swapping to SATCOM mode?

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page seems to indicate that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, so that would be consistent with the 1st two.
Based on this, we would expect a cruise and landing report. We have heard of neither.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
Since no "landing" report was received, then either the ACARS communication was disabled, or the a/c did not land.
We have not heard if ACARS would send a report upon fuel starvation flame-out.

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Big version: Width: 720 Height: 516 File size: 199kb
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 91kb
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites. These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible loci have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Way-point Tracks
The use of way-points to the navigate are conjecture. They happen to line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just along the path.

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Cargo and Lithium Battery Fires.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening.
There are also statements that the shipment held nothing hazardous or remarkable.
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
It seems very unlikely a fire could be intense enough to disable the crew, but then the a/c would survive and fly for 7+ hours.
Opinion: as a firefighter, I doubt this. The fire would destroy the a/c.

Aircraft Fuel State
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.

Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca straight
North west of Malacca straight
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not useful.

Conspiracy Theories
There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the government is hiding it aspects.
It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
Investigations of crew have begun in earnest.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Some of the more prevalent.
The pilot (senior, not FO) hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. Note: this makes no sense to me. It would require involvement of lots of people on the ground and it would be much easier to steal, on the ground.
The US hijacked the 777 using onboard FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcea (this one wins the insanity case).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue - and generated laughter in the latest pressor

IN summary what we know is. (This has NOT changed)
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

What seems likely.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1


[Edited 2014-03-16 12:07:53]


rcair1
User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74705 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):
Nope. Y.

According to wiki, there is no F on MH's 777.

Oh, I don't work for an airline or anything so for me "first class" just means "best seat in the house". On their 777 fleet I guess it would be called "business". That's what I meant.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2293 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74391 times:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 5):

Oh, I don't work for an airline or anything so for me "first class" just means "best seat in the house". On their 777 fleet I guess it would be called "business". That's what I meant.

Fair enough, no worries.

Are there reports that MH has in-flight phones only for business class, then?


User currently offlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1872 posts, RR: 41
Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74406 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting k83713 (Reply 2):
Are there men among F/A at MH routes or only women? Do we know their deck lay-out? If there was an assault or threat a man more likely to try to resist...

Definitely. On most flights the chief purser is male, and there are plenty of other male f/a's.

Martijn



Nothing's worse then flying the same registration twice, except flying it 4 times..
User currently offlinegiopan1975 From Greece, joined Jun 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74425 times:

How wide is the northern arc? If it is around 5000 km long why not have 10 airplanes fly low and parallel to each other along the arc? Or analyze every inch of the arc by satellite.

It is very weird a wreckage has not been found by now with all of that available information, investigators must be 2-3 days ahead of news' networks.


User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74220 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 6):
Fair enough, no worries.

Are there reports that MH has in-flight phones only for business class, then?

That is what their marketing materials say. But, someone many posts back said MRO was not equipped with satphones. Don't know how to verify that.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2194 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74240 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 6):
Are there reports that MH has in-flight phones only for business class, then?

According to MH, they do.

http://malaysiaairlines.com/hq/en/mh...ence/our-fleet/boeing-777-200.html


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74077 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 4):
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.

Is the secondary radar capable of detailing the heading at which the airframe was moving? This may lead to more clues.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineMarcoT From Italy, joined May 2005, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73887 times:

from the last thread

Quoting na (Reply 212):

Quote:

No alarm, no plane sent up trying to find out. Also ask the general, why it took them 4 days before saying anything.
Possible explanations: 1. the supervising controllers (at several stations!) all slept and the signals were only detected when researching the archive

This is simply not true.

On DAY 2 they said that they were expanding the SAR operation to the Andaman Sea because "the air force believes that it may have made a turn back". (slightly reparaphrased from memory, emphasis mine)

This was discussed extensively here, I even remember people accusing them of wasting resource in expanding the search there.

So on DAY 2 they were already admitting that a 777 could have crossed the peninsula without them realising...

Passing remark:
This is losing face, big time. And entirely on their own volition. Saving face would have been saying nothing, and scurrying to lose or accidentally write over the tapes, a la Ustica. They did the honourable thing and got eaten alive for that, go figure.

On day 4 (it was not day 3?... anyway the press conference with the AF chief correcting the misattribution) that was better precised with the full story about the primary returns.

I remember clearly, having read the transcript of the conference either here or on PPrune, that the AF chief very explicitly stated that they were discovered upon reviewing the tapes. So already you have your answer.

Now a couple of facts often overlooked

- the Malaysian peninsula at the location of the crossing is about 100nm width, so we're speaking of a 15 minutes transit

- it sems that the crossing was alongside the Thay/Malaysia border, and there's the distinct possibility that it even entered Thai airspace...

Also it is not that air force worldwide have such a sterling record:

- Mathias Rust managed to land onto the Red Square, during Cold War

- The wreck of a Libyan fighter was discovered on the mountains of Calabria shortly after Ustica and to this day it is not even known if it happened the same day or same day before (contrasting results of forensic evidence from the pilot's body).

- Last year a light aircraft flew undetected from the Canadian border to Tennesse, crashed and burned within the perimeter of BNA, and it was discovered only several hours later...



Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2293 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73875 times:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 9):
That is what their marketing materials say. But, someone many posts back said MRO was not equipped with satphones. Don't know how to verify that.

Hm, too bad I couldn't/didn't take pictures of the C class in MRF, then.

I think we can figure it out from trip reports, though.

edit: Well, I guess I'll trust their official website, then.


Do we know how many people were in Business Class? Not that it really matters, considering the F/As would be more likely to use the phones in an emergency, I would guess.

[Edited 2014-03-16 11:46:18]

User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1322 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73791 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Is the secondary radar capable of detailing the heading at which the airframe was moving?

Dang - I should have included primary/secondary radar discussion in the post.

Secondary radar depends on the transponder to respond to an inquiry and does typically include aircraft ID, altitude and, depending on mode, more information.
Primary radar is a reflection off the plane from the outgoing beam. It provides a "blip" but no information on ID - only a direction and distance. And information about heading/altitude/etc must be derived from that reflection and is far less certain. A series of primary returns can be used to build a track/map.



rcair1
User currently offlinek83713 From Russia, joined Jul 2010, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73779 times:

It seems the circle of first people to be a suspected hijacker is in the business-class. Maybe few front rows from where the cockpit entrance is seen.

[Edited 2014-03-16 11:48:42]

User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73591 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Is the secondary radar capable of detailing the heading at which the airframe was moving? This may lead to more clues.

Yes a Mode-S transponder is capable of reporting magnetic heading, track angle, all sorts of fun stuff. It is no use when it is switched off, though.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73455 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 4):
Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).

You forgot one crucial point in case a pilot is behind this mystery.
According to the official statement on the 16th the process of switching off the connection started before the final farewell was spoken. So in case it was a pilot that would mean the one who said "good night" was the one (if not both). Its suspicious that the families of the pilots should not have identified yet who of the two said "good night".


User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73245 times:

Quoting MarcoT (Reply 13):
- Mathias Rust managed to land onto the Red Square, during Cold War

This was as a result of massive cascading surveillance failures though, combination with a training exercise and blind luck, and the Soviet air force did quite a lot of housecleaning after that.

This is a 777 in the flight levels, not a Cessna... and in 2014...



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinek83713 From Russia, joined Jul 2010, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 73073 times:

Quoting na (Reply 18):



Pilot could say that himself under threat already..it would not prove he hijacked the airplane.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 72898 times:

How possible would it be for this (or any) aircraft to climb to 70,000 or higher? What would happen to it?


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineValleyFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 72882 times:

Regarding ACARS: ACARS has messages of types 5P and Q6 that are sent when ACARS is switched to :

Here are some sources:
Various ACARS docs such as:
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/decoders/acarsweb.pdf

A patent from Boing talking about the 5P generation technical details:
ACARS/VHF transceiver interface unit (AVIU)
Patent number US5809402 A
http://www.google.com/patents/US5809402

I am not sure if it is applicable under these specific circumstances but I could see that as a possible explanation of how it was determined that ACARS was switched off.

As I said before, I'm not an expert on this. But the protocol seems a lot more chatty than just sending a few messages, and I believe regardless whether you subscribed to Boeing AHM or not. Would be nice to have an expert explain.


User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 72723 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
How possible would it be for this (or any) aircraft to climb to 70,000 or higher? What would happen to it?

  

As possible as it is for it to reach orbit.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74915 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 4):
• People have asked if SATCOM pings would occur if the aircraft was landed, but operating.
• We have not seen data on this, but I would presume it would.

Let me correct the above.
The satcom pings would be operating as long as the system is powered up and it is within coverage area.

Quoting giopan1975 (Reply 8):
If it is around 5000 km long why not have 10 airplanes fly low and parallel to each other along the arc?

Genius...! Propose that now!   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1261 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 74866 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
How possible would it be for this (or any) aircraft to climb to 70,000 or higher? What would happen to it?

Maybe a Concorde could do it, many of military aircraft can do that for sure.

A 777 would stall way before reaching such an altitude.



"A rational army would run away"
25 rcair1 : Thank you. I've update the posting. ------ FYI - I've added a primary/secondary radar discussion.
26 FLALEFTY : While this is a sad tragedy, my take away is how multiple international players put aside their differences to search for this missing aircraft.
27 Bronko : In the previous thread, now closed, someone was discussing the shortcomings of current CVRs, in particular only having an hour of recording ability. C
28 SonomaFlyer : The fact the Captain has a flight simulator and obviously loves to fly isn't necessarily a red flag. It's simply one more item to be checked when goin
29 SpeckSpot : Quite a bit earlier there was a report (and a photo) of a rubber thing (thought to be a Dinghy, bearing the name either "Boarding" or "Boeing") that w
30 nupogodi : 60k ceiling =(
31 fn1001 : Is it unusual to say "God night!" when leaving an ATC sector? Edit: I mean good night...[Edited 2014-03-16 12:13:29]
32 rcair1 : Regarding my "Sanity Checks" It is my SINCERE HOPE that people posting will take the time to read these. They are a lot of work to put together and th
33 nupogodi : The 777 slides/rafts were a different colour. It was a marine raft. They all say "Boarding", it's so you know where to board... Yeah when you are in
34 rcair1 : No. See the synopsis in the sanity check. Well "God" night would be a bit unusual - but not "good" night.[Edited 2014-03-16 12:12:08]
35 cabochris : ya, and what?
36 edmountain : First of all, thanks for the sanity checks. Respectfully though, I think it's overstating it to claim mobile phone discussions are not useful until i
37 MakeMinesLAX : No help for flying the plane, but it would be tremendously beneficial for practicing navigation without the assistance of ATC. If the northern route
38 mila : >rcair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1185 posts, RR: 29 >Reply 255, posted Sun Mar 16 2014 19:26:00 your local time (11 minut
39 nupogodi : Allegedly it flew direct to waypoints on an altitude no one else would be flying. Not much navigating skill needed there, same ol' job, different day
40 edmountain : There has been speculation (on CNN and I think here too--volume of posts is somewhat overwhelming) that the pilot was using the simulator to train ac
41 shortstack81 : Your sanity checks are very useful in reigning the discussion in. The data we have (and what's being leaked too, for that matter) are extremely limit
42 nupogodi : Since the shallow body of water was extensively searched and nothing was found, and we later learned the aircraft was communicating until 0811L, I th
43 Post contains images socalgeo : Quoting nupogodi (Reply 103 in the last thread page): Extremely unlikely it carried unaccounted-for fuel unless somehow staff at the airport were "in
44 edmountain : It actually all sounds rather reasonable; thank you. As I mentioned before, I would still like to know if we can use the absence of cellphone network
45 nupogodi : Well that certainly would put them in very deep water.
46 aftgaffe : I disagree. In and of itself, the simulator means nothing. Indeed, I would think it was pretty awesome under most any other circumstances. But if the
47 nupogodi : The idea is sound, I've gotten "Welcome" messages from the US on my cell when I was high in the sky and really well on my side of the border, and I i
48 TheWipp : What I didn't get about that oil rig worker, I'm not familiar with oil rigs, but why was it only one guy? Aren't there a few people on an oil rig? Was
49 rcair1 : I think a 777 pilot on a 777 could handle this quite easily. I believe you can just enter a series of waypoints (GPS locations) in the flight managem
50 socalgeo : Thanks! As to your question, I kind doubt that the lack of registration helps one way or the other. There was a lot of discussion about it yesterday,
51 ThunderboltDrgn : Imo this probably is fairly accurate, around 3000nm range or something like that from IGARI.
52 SB6715 : I don't think the ABSENCE of phone registration can be taken as an indication of anything. For all we know, everyone remembered to switch off their p
53 CptHaddock : Just to answer this specific point, the guy was probably not alone on the rig. But in the middle of the night, there's a chance the colleagues were s
54 SB6715 : Well, unless it is still flying, at some point it must have been at an altitude low enough for registration to take place, assuming the descent happe
55 Finn350 : Excellent summary, rcair1. I have a few comments / questions. Is it confirmed that the distance determination from the satellite is based on the signa
56 AirCalSNA : When we were still in thread number 2 I suggested that the plane was hijacked. The mods cut it, I guess because I wasn't toeing the airliners.net offi
57 11Bravo : I've thought something like your scenario is probably the most plausible explanation requiring the fewest assumptions. Something along these lines co
58 btfarrwm : I wonder if the investigators have looked into whether the captain or F/O had access to any sedative medications. People seem to be assuming that a vi
59 MakeMinesLAX : Presumably, you're referring to the waypoints which were mapped out in one of the earlier threads, and the indication that the deliberate turns made
60 DDR : Has the airline released any information regarding the passengers? In particular, if there were any airline employees (pilots) who were riding in the
61 ComeAndGo : So, was the plane hijacked ? It looks more like a pilot suicide.
62 flyenthu : This has probably been answered before, so please pardon me. Is there are warning to alert pilots if the ACARS stops functioning or is shut down? I am
63 nupogodi : No, there would still be a circle. You cannot derive the aircraft's position with just one geostationary satellite, even down to two points. What the
64 trnswrld : Wow are you serious, the mods deleted your thread suggesting hijack? That's messed up, what is that supposed to be offensive to someone these days? F
65 Post contains images gr325 : Why fly so many hours for a suicide. Surly he wasn't waiting 5 plus hours for the other pilot to go take a piss [Edited 2014-03-16 13:20:39]
66 dc9northwest : To never find the plane. Seems to be working.
67 Post contains links norm1153 : Is this already old news? http://www.pprune.org/8380661-post4551.html Greek ship found a suitcase Malacca Strait.
68 nupogodi : Old news. They did not find a suitcase. They didn't find anything.
69 Finn350 : You are correct. I removed that part from my post.
70 rcair1 : No. I don't know how they did it. I believe it was the 2nd engine health report
71 Post contains links k83713 : Sorry if posted before, but in this article Bloomberg claims that last transmission was 1000 miles west of Perth. "Satellite transmission data analyze
72 11Bravo : Suicide is an inherently irrational action and it seems you're expecting a logical thought process. Looking for a rational reason "why?" is probably
73 SamH123 : Small detail, but I assume the reports of the plane turning at it went off radar are true? I was wondering how we know the plane turned? If someone ha
74 Post contains links ThunderboltDrgn : I don't think I have seen that before but the question then would be how it could get inside Australias new fancy radar coverage which is supposed to
75 Post contains images nupogodi : It's within the flight range and it's near the southern arc, if you discount the northern arc because of radar exposure near the coast and over land
76 planesmart : Presumably authorities will be checking to see if the pilot ever attempted water landings on the simulator. Hopefully airborne searchers have a portab
77 nupogodi : You realize the flight has been missing for over a week, right? If they're in some hotel where they can plug in their phones, I think they're gonna b
78 Post contains links k83713 : Seems like Australian authorities also wonder the same: "The Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) said it had no reliable information to indic
79 ushermittwoch : Suicide can be very rational. Maybe not in this case, but I can think of many scenarios in which suicide is possibly the best option.
80 EA CO AS : And suppose at least 5 of those were smartphones equipped with GPS chips; couldn't those have been used as a potential source of a signal to trace th
81 KIAS : Well said. I think my earlier post a few threads back was taken out of context. To fully disable ACARS requires a trip to the E/E bay. Stopping a tra
82 nupogodi : Realistically it's probably more like 230 phones on board, 200 of them on, 90% of them smartphones Not everyone has a GPS app that stores maps locall
83 Post contains images socalgeo : Seems to me like the general area is within 100 miles or so our calculations, (2970 statute mile range, and 495 mph for 6 hours...) which I think is
84 ROSWELL41 : This plane has been at the bottom of the Indian Ocean for the last 8 days. We will likely never find it. Egyptair 990, Silkair 185, LAM 470 and now MH
85 Post contains images k83713 : Thank you very much for visuals, I was about to ask someone to do it... I hope they are already on the way to that point. It narrows the search area
86 dragon6172 : The suicide could have happened well away from the crash site. It has been said the aircraft was following some airways / nav points. Once the pilot
87 cougar15 : one of only 2 handsfull of worthy coments I have read in the past 30 odd threads! thanks guys for providing the platform on a subject we all know ver
88 Post contains links k83713 : Regarding cell phones, there is interesting link claiming it's allowed in Malaysian Airlines to use cell phones on board http://www.amta.org.au/newsle
89 SeeTheWorld : Interesting ... If true, I wonder if the currents down their head south and east toward Antarctica or that the Marianas Trench was too obviously ....
90 cougar15 : yes, but they are still limited in range and no, that will not go away, even with 4G! Let´s stay on the carpet please, had it landed anywhere "civil
91 iberiadc852 : What hypothesis would fit with that diagram?. That once they (the hijackers), could go to where they wanted, (in a straight line, as it seems?), they
92 k83713 : It only gives perspective how many phones would be switched on. If airline doesn't require them off, the number can be much more than just 20 forgott
93 Post contains links nupogodi : Yes they had a 777 with a Honeywell microcell on board that allowed passengers to talk and text at exorbitant rates. It was a pilot program, not on t
94 Viscount724 : It could also have been due to a suicidal member of the cabin crew who poisoned or drugged the pilots' coffee or other drinks in the galley. That doe
95 glbltrvlr : >> ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, primarily maintenance information, to maintenance facili
96 k83713 : What about others on board then? No attempt to do anything?
97 Post contains links AR385 : It´s impossible. The plane would simply stop flying and drop. I´m not sure at what level but my guess is the maximum it could reach would be 45,000
98 Freeman : I posted this yesterday... One or both pilots are involved. The passengers probably didn't know anything was amiss and were just settling in for the l
99 nupogodi : I think the intention there was to say that MH subscribed to basic AHM through VHF only, and EHM over SATCOM. I believe these would be "rules" config
100 Tangowhisky : Thanks. Whether a cell phone registered or did not register, I am sure the authorities will keep this info confidential as the potential hijacker wou
101 Post contains links ThunderboltDrgn : According to the Independent, 3000miles (2600nm) was the aircrafts maximum range at FL300. I think this is the first time I have seen such a specific
102 11Bravo : Well, as you might imagine I WAS refering to this case,.... as odd as that might seem. I cannot imagine a logical or rational reason for killing 200+
103 KIAS : I think what he meant to say (or is confused about) is that data such as EHM summaries can be sent over gatelink to avoid broadcast costs. Less, and
104 Post contains links rcair1 : If, in fact, we had 200 phones on and cell phones were registering with towers - don't you think we'd know? We have heard nothing but "they are ringi
105 Post contains links flyenthu : Has it been confirmed that it was the captain's voice as this article says: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...words-said-after-plane-seized.html
106 EA CO AS : The only problem with Tel Aviv as a target is that the Israelis wouldn't hesitate for a moment to shoot down that aircraft once their air force picke
107 Post contains links Ryanair01 : I don't know how accurate these reports are, but it is being reported that the Captain was a major supporter of the Malaysian Opposition Politician An
108 11Bravo : Pilot/Aircrew suicide.
109 peterinlisbon : I don't think we'll see it in Tel Aviv any time soon, and if any type of unidentified aircraft does go anywhere near Israel then it will be shot down
110 Post contains images socalgeo : It's hard for me to say, we came up with a range estimate of 2970 miles, but we really don't know. It could be more, but it is likely that it is not
111 k83713 : I believe they never registered because they never reached any base station coverage since there are no base stations across Indian ocean. Also on th
112 Post contains links KIAS : "Over 90 percent of people who commit suicide have been diagnosed with mental illness." Link "More than two-thirds of all suicides are driven by a me
113 glbltrvlr : The airline will take link cost and message source into consideration when programming the rules for sending messages, but that is usually done in th
114 slvrblt : ^^^^^^ This. I alluded to something similar to this scenario back in part 14, reply 293. I hope to god this guy and me are both wrong, I hope these p
115 Tangowhisky : If it was suicide, then he knowingly also wanted to take others with him. Why stop at that? Why not also crash into KL? The hijacker took meticulous
116 TheRedBAron : I have refrained from posting,because quite frankly we dont know what happened an all these 30 threads, are just a big guessing game. What I know is t
117 Viscount724 : For the first 5 or 6 hours they wouldn't know anything was wrong, especially at night. And beyond that point when they wondered why they hadn't arriv
118 aseem : To all those suicide theorists. If the Captain were to commit suicide, why does he have go off the radar. He does not even have to go to full cruising
119 capri : how would you know if the plane is not already in Israel? How would we know if Israel is the party that was interested in the "Cargo" in the plane an
120 cabochris : UK Rag Tabloid!! Shameful! "Captain was a major supporter of the Malaysian Opposition Politician Anwar Ibrahim, who was sentenced to five years jail
121 k83713 : What about other F/As? No interaction with the cockpit would seem strange to them. If plane flies straight, no banking those guys would certianly not
122 cougar15 : Now there is a new theory! It was probably those US Boys on board! Just like 9/11 and all we learnt on/in the ´Loose Change' movies how capable they
123 ComeAndGo : Really ? Even if it had an ELAL livery ? I wouldn't be to sure about Israeli readiness. When Lebanese terrorists used an Iranian sourced anti ship mi
124 AR385 : Did you actually read the articles you linked? I suppose you didn´t because I see nothing there that says suicide can´t be a rational process. And
125 SeeTheWorld : Just because you think he would have crashed into KL or it's not a suicide is illogical thinking. There have been a few very reasonable ideas mention
126 GipperPDX : Life insurance policies do not pay on suicides. Hide the wreckage / black boxes = no evidence of suicide = beneficiaries paid. That is one of several
127 kelebek : Don't they have Airshow in the seats?
128 rebr : If it fails to identify itself, yes even if it has an ElAl livery...
129 slvrblt : You're right; but the world we live in is, unfortunately, a place now where an event called 9/11 took place. So, get a grip on reality, and the very
130 MillwallSean : While the political divide in Malaysia is bitter and very infected it seems bringing a plane filled with innocents down is a very drastic way to put i
131 BackSeater : Journalists: could you please ask investigators about the 01:30+ call at the next daily briefing? Remember the article in the StraitsTimes first repor
132 KIAS : I agree if the above information is indeed true, it makes for an avenue worthy of investigation. Still, what is the motive? How does hijacking and/or
133 spacecadet : The Malaysian investigators don't have a great history so far of looking for "obvious" things in a timely manner - or at least of acknowledging them
134 AR385 : Not entirely correct. It depends on local law. Some countries allow it, others don´t. I know the US doesn´t but Mexico does. I don´t know about Ma
135 k83713 : Still no. Suicide is too simple explanation in front of very complex arrangements and circumstances. Only slight stress was political leader of the pa
136 jelliesR : People want to believe in fairies (and massive criminal or government conspiracies). Suicide in a way that makes the Malaysia government look inept i
137 KIAS : Air traffic is not identified by livery. Of course I read them, that's why I posted them to you. I never said "suicide can't be rational" - I posted
138 jelliesR : And that is the problem. Some of you don't want a simple explanation because it isn't fun/scary/interesting enough. You want an 8 part HBO special wi
139 nupogodi : IFE easily disabled from cockpit, along with satphones (if equipped).
140 k83713 : Ok, so then you need to explain his reasons. Why? Just because? As simple as that?
141 Post contains links EVAAIRBR076 : did u mean this? http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...e-communications-disabled-malaysia
142 KIAS : Not only does the "plane as weapon" theory seem near-impossible to pull off, it also doesn't explain the myriad ways of acquiring aircraft that would
143 DDR : A voice of reason! Danke Cougar15. As sad as it is, these poor people are in all probability dead, and have been dead for several days. As a crew mem
144 HNL : Yes they do! All the life insurance policies in my family include a 1 year suicide "waiting period" after which it's not a restriction.
145 cabochris : Murder is less simple
146 capri : what I meant is they knew something was up and intercepted it or the cargo or the people in it and ferried it to Israel with their know how so anothe
147 EA CO AS : Most don't.
148 BackSeater : No. Your new article refers to the last message with Malaysia ATC. The one I am referring to is a call between two Malaysia 777s, maybe 10min after M
149 TristarSteve : Must ask you out of curiosity, but what would you do in the EE bay to disable ACARS? Were you proposing to pull the COM modules out of the AIMS cabin
150 ThunderboltDrgn : But wouldn't the whole thing with disabled transponders,possibly avoiding radars and etc, be very suspicious for an insurance company?
151 pvjin : They will pay if the aircraft lies somewhere on bottom of Indian Ocean & won't be found any time soon, so there would be no proof about any singl
152 fiscal : First a question - Can cabin crew make calls direct to MH Operations? or can it only be done via the cockpit? Next Murder/Suicide theories. Only a sma
153 k83713 : Agree, we need to have a bit of heart before claiming specific people are to blame for 240 souls dead. There should be strong reasons for all to happ
154 pvjin : Sorry but that story makes absolutely no sense if you think about it for more than 30 seconds. If you have government backing why on earth would you
155 uta999 : I asked this in a previous thread. How much further south could it fly on a single engine; at a lower speed or altitude? Would it increase the range s
156 slowroll : If this were the case it would take A LOT of people and money involved. Why not just buy cheap used wide bodies, setup a phony airline while you are
157 btblue : What we know: Plane is missing. Phones rang (according to relatives) The plane has flown north west The plane has flown south west Pings received.
158 StuckInCA : Someone answered you before too. Less range at lower altitude. Less range with one engine.
159 ComeAndGo : How about, it already had fuel on board from a previous flight. Wasn't the previous flight a repositioning flight?
160 KELPkid : Doesn't MH have seatback moving maps (like most other Asian airlines?). If so, I'd venture that quite a few passengers knew something was way way wro
161 Post contains links TUNisia : It comes as FBI investigators say the disappearance of MH370 may have been ‘an act of piracy’ and the possibility that hundreds of passengers are
162 affirmative : But how would you prove who committed suicide and who got murdered in this case? ---------------- If this was a deliberate act to somehow put the eye
163 ComeAndGo : The question is: is this a one man show or is there a more elaborate organization involved.
164 baldwin471 : The electronics for IFE could've easily been switched off and customers informed it was a technical problem - thus no seat back moving map. I've actu
165 iberiadc852 : The problem is that relies on flying a long time in a dumb direction, after having succeeded in a very sophisticated trama to hijack a 777 with none
166 nupogodi : For the millionth time, the IFE system including the map is easily disabled from the cockpit, and you wouldn't need much of an excuse. "Sorry folks,
167 affirmative : And you were answered.. Flying on one engine does not save fuel. The drag from the engine not running plus the drag from having to use rudder and ail
168 slowroll : I would assume they could be disabled, if desired. Which I think the point was it's more likely a one man show, given that there would be easier ways
169 KIAS : Open the ACARS CMU AC circuit breaker or disconnect CMU power supply from 115v AC.
170 k83713 : Do F/A have a chance to declare emergency from the deck to the ground?
171 cabochris : The Chinese must be a little nervous that the northern arc potentiality and likely puts the machine somewhere on the ground (if landed), very close to
172 Viscount724 : If it was a suicide mission involving a pilot (more likely than cabin crew), they would have almost certainly switched that off, like other electroni
173 ChaosTheory : Assuming they had 40t at the point of diversion, FL350 would give them 2900nm and FL400 would take them to 3100nm at .84M (GE-90 engines).
174 iberiadc852 : That's maybe the only thing they should have kept until at least they could go over the place. Some questions that arise: - How much time do those si
175 ThunderboltDrgn : Ok thanks.
176 jelliesR : You can ask the same question of so many crimes where the person is found insane. Some may argue anything involving murder requires some degree of in
177 danvs : Does anyone know if China, India, Turkmenistan and other countries along the "northwest track" have been asked to review radar data for primary return
178 BackSeater : The Rolls Royce "end of flight" engine report after about 4 hours was probably right anyway. Then it was sort of denied. Then we learn the flight may
179 nupogodi : All they confirmed was that theoretically if the aircraft was powered up on the ground, that the SATCOM would continue pinging the satellite. That's
180 slowroll : The ground speculation is probably based on the fact that the prior ping was at or near the same distance.[Edited 2014-03-16 16:05:35]
181 jelliesR : In a hold pattern over deep water. Waiting for the fuel to run out.
182 Post contains links TUNisia : I'm thinking investigators don't want to say that is true, because it might hamper them finding the place. I've felt all along the plane has landed s
183 Dalavia : If we follow the hypothesis for a moment that the plane landed safely because of its cargo (whatever that was), then the 777 would be expendable and
184 edmountain : I thought the cell phone ringing as being meaningful was debunked a long time ago. And what's the source for the successful end of flight transmissio
185 Lindenwold : if the phones rang, authorities would have been able to locate the aircraft by now IMO.
186 rcair1 : Suspicion is not proof. That would have been included in the fuel on board - they don't start filling assuming it is empty. They add what is needed f
187 EA CO AS : My point was that in a definitive case of suicide, most policies won't pay. The circumstances around this incident make it impossible to say with cer
188 Post contains images keegd76 : It was. Repeatedly.
189 k83713 : He made a statement in his facebok after trial. He had a statement in his t-shirt about democracy being dead. He even made a statement about his FS r
190 edmountain : Some (many? most?) cultures cast suicide in a very negative and shameful light. I think the specter of shame (or potential blame and subsequent venge
191 Post contains links greaser : Interesting NY Times piece that really is just damning of the Malaysian Gov't: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/wo...task-of-finding-flight-370.html?
192 Tangowhisky : If your hypothesis is true, then this is the most planned pilot suicide in history.
193 pvjin : Obviously they wouldn't let the public to know the government was behind the airplane. They could just set up some shady cargo company in some poor d
194 Post contains images rcair1 : Warning to mods..... I'm loosin' it - need to step away. In all likelihood the only satellite signal was the SATCOM pings. We already know that they w
195 Dalavia : Not my hypothesis, just trying to marry the leaks received by Flying with Fish with the other data that is emerging (though much more slowly, it seem
196 jelliesR : Because Anwar was standing for election, despite the vote rigging and setbacks, he was still running, still talking, still on the rise, until the pro
197 Post contains images Starlionblue : Stall way before that. 60k service ceiling, meaning it could go higher. If memory serves the Concorde service ceiling was predicated on emergency des
198 nupogodi : There are a lot of space-based assets with classified capabilities in the sky. But realistically? No. There is no "easy button" to press.
199 Dalavia : That is what I suspected would be the case.
200 rcair1 : There are a lot of people in the US who could claim the same - on both sides of the aisle. Some have probably killed themselves - if they were alread
201 rcair1 : Thanks. Unfortunately - tomorrow is Monday and work bekons. I'm not sure how much time I can devote to these threads then and before I can update the
202 Tangowhisky : It is raising red flags and US authorities have already said this to the media. This is the most technically planned hijacking that I can remember an
203 cialome : Can someone outline how much room is in the avionics bay, which I understand is under the pilots. This was accessed in order to disable one or two of
204 k83713 : But not through squawk-like system or direct comms through HF? Because now you end up with monopoly of cockpit for this kind of transmissions, but if
205 nupogodi : To expand on that... Back when the Gulf of Thailand around the last known SSR return was the main search area, I had suggested that it would be somew
206 nupogodi : Nope.
207 MakeMinesLAX : I'm not an expert, but it doesn't sound like there's a formal transfer procedure between control centers. In other words, Malaysian ATC doesn't conta
208 todareisinger : Yeah, I have read that the last signals were sent "from the ground" - could this mean the plane landed somewhere? The more I think of this story, the
209 rcair1 : This is not true - see the summary at post 4. The EE bay did not need to be accessed. Somebody with more knowledge of the 777 would have to reply - I
210 Dalavia : That is a fascinating thought. If true, then just as MH370 disappeared without anyone noticing for a while, a 'dark' plane (any plane, not necessaril
211 CX Flyboy : You can't just appear at a FIR boundry with a randomly selected transponder code at an ATC unit who is not expecting you and be expected to appear no
212 iberiadc852 : What about going the other way?. I mean, using the aviation fan community a Tomnod or similar facility to try to locate an isolated 777 where there s
213 Post contains links 777Jet : I know the Captain's family moving out has been discussed before, but here is a link to a different article: "Meanwhile, it has been revealed that Sha
214 Post contains links Shmendr : Question: Pilot's knowledge about Satellite area coverage? Looking at the Immarsat Satellite Coverage map (link below), it's worth pointing out that M
215 rcair1 : Neither am I - but I have flown IFR (not as PIC) and handled comms. The prev ATC just told us to contact the next. I don't think they pre-alerted the
216 Post contains images David L : I'm surprised you didn't start loosin' it ages ago! There seems to be an sudden influx of people who haven't read any of the previous discussion and
217 nupogodi : You're going to age faster than a president if you keep this up
218 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : It's not huge but a person can fit in the E/E bay. Note that while earier in these threads "we" thought you needed E/E bay access to disable comms, i
219 Post contains images rcair1 : Oh no - are we stuck in a do loop with no exit....
220 Post contains links travelhound : The Australian Government are sending a search aircraft to Keeling (Cocos) Island. Could this have been a copycat of the recent Ethiopian incident wit
221 billreid : The Telegraaf in Holland is reporting some luggage floating was found. any further on this?
222 nupogodi : False positive, as always with this incident. Nothing was found.
223 David L : Yes...
224 777Jet : I doubt it. We would have heard from them by now, unless they got unlucky during their asylum mission and the plane crashed... You don't need to take
225 Tangowhisky : But there is a big difference. AF447 crashed and it took over 2 years to know why. In this case, a plane vanished with all indications that it was pr
226 lweber557 : A couple of days ago I would have said this theory is too out there but after this many days and no trace of the aircraft this is very plausible. Let
227 Post contains links DIRECTFLT : This UK Daily Mirror article metions the pilot's wife and children moving out the day before the flight. Also mentions the pilot's political leanings
228 KIAS : Depends how you phrase it. Disable ACARS = E/E bay. Limit transmissions = Flight deck.
229 Starlionblue : This has apparently been debunked.
230 trnswrld : Wow that's the first I have heard about the captains wife and kids moving out a few days prior to this flight. Very interesting. Before reading that I
231 audioace87 : This is just a cool post. In such a high tech machine, this is the guts that fly it! Anyway to get a tour of the E/E bay? I think its a little odd th
232 trnswrld : ^^^where do you see plywood?
233 Post contains links jcxroberts : You can avoid radar by hugging close to the terrain. The Southern Route crosses Indonesian and Austrailian radar so it is only a bit more likely to be
234 alfa164 : I would say it is ONE plausible scenario - but the motives don't add up. If the captain was truly upset enough to hijack the plane because he hated t
235 Post contains images David L : There's another big difference. AF447 sent a lot of informative ACARS messages which people completely ignored in their eagerness to outdo each other
236 Viscount724 : I wouldn't trust a British tabloid like the Mirror without further confirmation. And the reference to his children moving out doesn't make sense as e
237 btfarrwm : Couldn't small variances in the SATCOM ping delays be attributed to altitude? It's ~7 miles further for the signal to travel to the earth's surface t
238 777Jet : If this was pilot suicide by the Captain, would this be the most experienced pilot involved in a pilot suicide mission? Also, would this involve the
239 nupogodi : It's funny, some media is saying investigators say the southern arc is the most likely, others are saying investigators say the northern arc is most
240 Starlionblue : I don't know why there's plywood. Perhaps this pic may have been taken during a check or something and they put down the plywood to protect the floor
241 Post contains links edmountain : I agree. I'm watching CNN right now and they're going on and on about how the last signal could have been made from the ground but they're just slow
242 Rara : If only. I feel that we've went from joint fact-finding to everyone nursing their own little pet theory. We should all remember that even after a wee
243 jcxroberts : I know witness reports are unreliable, but there were a number who saw a low flying plane coming back over the peninsula. It may have swung up again
244 trex8 : Do they even keep QRA? They only have 36 front line fighters (and no, I really dont think they will put an AIM9 on a Hawk or F5 and put them on QRA u
245 rcair1 : See this section of the Sanity Check - short answer is it has been reported as untrue. -- According to the maps included in the linked part of the sa
246 cougar15 : Every ship, no matter what it´s purpose gathers (condensed) water and therewith weight, especially a Pax A/C. Heck, my last employer, operating 22 o
247 Tangowhisky : That would require feeding and attending to a lot of people. Not worth it. If that is not the number one consideration of many generals around the wo
248 edmountain : I would have more confidence in such a theory if I could be told of just one example cargo for which it makes sense to only have been acquired only t
249 Post contains images rcair1 : Huzzah! Great point!
250 777Jet : Something I mentioned threads ago, was that in order to trick the system / investigators, the plane could have flown an hour or so past its planned d
251 Tangowhisky : It is probably a full scale mock-up or ground test rig of some-kind.
252 747megatop : Did the aircraft have enough range to fly due south of SriLanka and then onto Somalia? Is that a theory being considered and looked at?
253 nupogodi : I tend to trust the radar over the people, they'll say they saw whatever they think they saw. Many people claim to have seen flying saucers. Radar is
254 nupogodi : That's what it looked like to me.
255 Post contains links Tapir : More on Msian Air force radar. Source taken from http://www.fz.com/content/air-force-...apping-mh370-could-have-been-saved
256 hivue : Maybe the most planned suicide period in history.
257 trnswrld : Yeah I don't think that's plywood your seeing there.
258 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : There was also the JAL DC-8-61 that crashed on approach to HND in 1982 in what was believed to be a suicide attempt by the mentally-disturbed captain
259 edmountain : I disagree. Given with 100% certainty that the aircraft is missing, and assuming the mechanism is one of the four listed above, then the probability
260 dragon6172 : That's what I was thinking. If we are talking the bottom center of the picture, that looks like an insulation bag against the skin.
261 hivue : Might help some flying an oddball route (lateral and vertical) he (and possibly anyone else) has never flown before. It seems to me that would tend t
262 fooflyboy : No. All the hijacker would have to do is pull the circuit breaker for the recorder(s). There are too many unknowns. And a lot at stake. Which is why
263 LTC8K6 : Well, we'd likely know that he pulled the breaker(s). That would have pretty much instantly confirmed foul play.[Edited 2014-03-16 18:31:56]
264 777Jet : It this was a suicide then I would suspect that it could only be one of the pilots. Why would somebody else take over / hi-jack the plane only to com
265 Post contains links harim : More speculation http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...-1500m-to-avoid-detection-says-nst The passenger satellite phones and tracking maps must have
266 aluminumtubing : I have not read all the threads on this subject, so if this has already been discussed, I apologize. It is theoretically possible that whomever is re
267 hivue : When breakers trip I my house I don't automatically suspect foul play.
268 Post contains images KIAS : Here is another picture of a 777 E/E bay. I think what people are referring to a "plywood" is actually insulation. Enlarge to see more clearly. For re
269 LTC8K6 : That's confusing. They avoided secondary radar by disabling the transponder. It would be primary radar they would avoid via maneuvering. Do they mean
270 777Jet : Yes, has been discussed and is possible. The oxygen for the pax is only good for about 10-15 mins. Also, I thought that one of the pilots might have
271 LTC8K6 : The sound of pulling the C/B would be recorded and sent... As it actually was in one case, iirc. Recorded, I mean.
272 aluminumtubing : That is definitely theoretically possible, however, the cockpit masks are required to be checked on the pre-flight checklist by both pilots and any j
273 TheWipp : "Background checks of passengers have drawn a blank but not every country whose nationals were on board has responded to requests for information, Ins
274 11Bravo : I believe that has been mentioned. It would explain why there was no interference from passengers or the cabin crew. It is also very cold-blooded. At
275 777Jet : I was thinking the same thing, especially if China is one of the countries not responding. After all, most of the pax on MH370 were Chinese and the C
276 edmountain : How does the perpetrator avoid hypothermia while waiting for the cabin crew and passenger oxygen to run out?
277 BatBowlField : So I am really starting to wonder now about how reluctant / willing the governments of the various countries are in the search for the plane. I'm sure
278 Tapir : I think during the pc yesterday, they mentioned that China cooperated. It was during the Q&A session and was in Malay.
279 FXfan : I'm curious....what would the range have been if one engine was shut down? I realize this isn't necessary or reasonable, but could the plane maintain
280 cjg225 : Warm clothes? Layers? We don't know what they were wearing.
281 Post contains links N328KF : WSJ has a nice bit about the P-8A operations (presumably the P-8Is are doing something similar.) http://goo.gl/rO1qJ0 If nothing else, it's good pract
282 777Jet : I would hope so after the way they were talking about the investigation from the beginning.
283 Tapir : Beijing temperature would have been around 5 celcius on March 8 at the point of landing.
284 Braniff747SP : They would try to force it down. If it didn't comply or ignored them they would shoot it down. Part of his conspiracy story, too, was that the plane
285 aluminumtubing : He or they would not have to necessarily fully depressurize the aircraft. I am not familiar with the 777 passenger O2 system and how they may or may
286 StuckInCA : I'm curious why so many people fire up anet and ask questions without reading even this latest thread. It's absolutely dumbfounding. An interesting s
287 7BOEING7 : Yes
288 davidzill : Lots of dark colored SUVs parked outside of SEAL Team 6's compound today, I wonder what's up?
289 trex8 : March Madness - for those outside the US, thats college basketball
290 rickabone : I think the answer is that most of us don't have the time to read 30+ threads of 300+ posts...
291 FXfan : Someone get this guy an award for reading all of the posts.
292 fooflyboy : I just had a thought.. How possible is it that the hijacker/pilot was monitoring communications, media, and possibly even the internet while his scena
293 Tapir : By the time I finished reading all 30 threads, the would be another 100s of new replies. I tried my best and yet I may have repeated same Q . Sanity
294 7BOEING7 : No, it's not a turboprop.
295 DiscoverCSG : If this were a more efficient way to fly, this is how all flying would be done. By shutting down one engine, you're left with asymmetrical thrust tha
296 nupogodi : Considering it didn't really hit the news until the plane would have been starved of fuel, impossible.
297 StuckInCA : Or one thread. Or, in most cases, even the excellent summaries provided in each thread. You have no idea how much or little time others have. I perso
298 hoMsAr : The irony being, there wouldn't be so many posts and so many threads if folks didn't say the same thing over and over.
299 7BOEING7 : No because the masks automatically drop at a specific cabin altitude well before you'd end up hypoxic -- however the oxygen generators don't last tha
300 TheRedBAron : We don't even have enough data to cite Occam's razor on anything... I will give the Captain a Break and also I dont think he did it, the media is play
301 LTC8K6 : I was reading the report of the Helios incident, and it said the portable crew bottles were good for ~1 hour on high and ~2 hours on low and there we
302 Mutt : I'm not familiar with the 777 pressurization system either, but I strongly think that a 737's ACM could provide warm/hot air to the cockpit and cabin
303 N328KF : Can you really even do this with a twin turboprop? Funny that you should say that...
304 Viscount724 : Total replies to date in this thread (as of Reply 305 in Part 30) stand at 8,625. I'm guessing that's a record for any A.net thread. How long does an
305 LTC8K6 : 1.6.3.5.2.2 Passenger Portable Oxygen First aid and supplemental portable oxygen cylinders are installed at suitable locations in the passenger cabin.
306 nupogodi : It's not an entirely unfair assumption to make, and even posthumously he is innocent until proven guilty, but that really should not stifle free spee
307 YVRLTN : I wonder if that may explain some of the erratic flying / altitude extremes. 2nd pilot realizes his mask isnt working or comes back from the toilet a
308 nupogodi : Are you familiar with the 737, then? Is it possible to open the outflow valve and depressurize completely if you have the compressor/bleed air/whatev
309 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : Pretty neat graphic summary. Click to open larger version. Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...1e3-a06a-e3230a43d6cb_graphic.html [Edited 2
310 Dalavia : Unless of course this is still an active scenario and the hijacker is scanning the internet regarding the next move. No - it all just starts getting
311 Tapir : About the CVR which was previous discussed, am I correct to say that the recording is analogue and not digital? Hope this Q wasn't discussed before. E
312 hivue : The graphic says, "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to four hours after its transponder went dark." That data had to go
313 LTC8K6 : One or two emergency ways to communicate to the outside world, located outside the cockpit, and not subject to being cut off from the cockpit, might b
314 777Jet : If one of them was really on a mission then all it might have taken was a good hit to the side of the head of the other pilot. Much less planning inv
315 antskip : I agree. The pilot is surely the prime suspect. The whole thing has been moving towards that scenario for the past week. If it was him behind it all,
316 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : Hi All, This thread has gotten long so Part 31 has been created. It can be found here MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-P (by jetbluegu
317 Post contains images socalgeo : I really don't think so. Seems to me with a range of ~3000 stat miles after the last radar contact that route would leave them close to 500 miles sho
318 aluminumtubing : Fully understand. The O2 canisters typically last approximately 12 minutes per in the cabin. It would take some unusual circumstance which would obvi
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