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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 84257 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

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Due to length part 42 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 43:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-03-23 06:53:52]


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
253 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecat3appr50 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 84423 times:

Clarification on my last post. Just read the UK Telegraph ATC communications transcript of MH370 flight, and the FL350 double communications to ATC seems normal. Disregard the last paragraph of my previous post..no abnormalities there IMO.

User currently offlineboacvc10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 84042 times:

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 281):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 279):
Umm isn't it obvious it's not a real picture?



With the number of people on the internet that don't know/don't care/don't have clue how to verify/twitter/pinterest/news feeds, and the need to share ... it's likely that photo will become something like: WTC 9/11 American Airlines hoax picture



Up, up and Away!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3002 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 83994 times:

Quoting capri (Reply 274):
so they can at least stop some theories/conspiracies going out of control

International Convention on Civil Aviation, Annex 13:

"OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.

PROTECTION OF EVIDENCE, CUSTODY AND REMOVAL OF AIRCRAFT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE
OF OCCURRENCE


3.2 The State of Occurrence shall take all reasonable measures to protect the evidence and to maintain safe custody of the aircraft and its contents for such a period as may be necessary for the purposes of an investigation. Protection of evidence shall include the preservation, by photographic or other means of any evidence which might be removed, effaced, lost or destroyed. Safe custody shall include protection against further damage, access by unauthorized persons, pilfering and deterioration."



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2213 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 83874 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 271):
The problem with electrical fire is that it does not match the aircraft's behaviour. It went past the waypoint, turned to the right, then some minute(s) after that, turned back left almost 180 degrees, and continued for a long time, and turned again just before entering Indonesian airspace before finally making the turn to the final track to disappear. That sequence of events took about 40mins.

I don't see why it can't match. Fires can spread gradually and crews can fight them while trying to land the airplane. I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the crew remained able throughout the flight, and that the airplane was no longer controllable.


User currently offlinedavidzill From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 83734 times:

What I find noticeable is that the first Chinese satellite sighting near Vietnam, the Australian satellite sighting, and the recent Chinese sighting all deal with pieces of floating debris of almost exacting dimensions, yet it's hard to find a section of the 777 meeting those dimensions, and if there was, you would think it would just sink due to weight, unless a wing was largely intact and the empty fuel tanks had buoyancy effects. Whatever the case, it takes days for these finds to come out, because the above listed countries must sort through thousands of wiles of satellite photography, so I doubt the debris are any near where they were photographed. It's a wild goose chase of epic proportions.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 82417 times:

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 2):

There will always be stupid people doing/saying stupid things. I don't think a disclaimer is gonna help that. At least the 9/11 one looks like real life... the MH one looks artsy and also, even the dumbest person can probably put two and two and realize that if we had a picture of MH370 ditching, we'd probably wouldn't have wasted over a week searching in obviously wrong areas.

Much freaking out over nothing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6861 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 82280 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 5):
I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the crew remained able throughout the flight, and that the airplane was no longer controllable.

I don't know fire can explain the comms going dead then the aircraft doing a 180º turn, then continued for about 35mins, then turned right by 70º, continued straight for about 20 mins, then turned right by about 80º then 5 mins later left again by about 80º then continuing into oblivion... The timeframe is too long to make it knock out the comms, still let the aircraft be under control, only to knock the crew and/or the controls out after an hour.
The location of the turns are also coincidentally very near waypoints that are near the FIR boundaries...

Unfortunately, the aircraft being under control, is the most likely scenario at the moment, and it is the easiest (although not easy) to comprehend given what we know.

Simple fire scenarios, simple hijack scenarios, simple decompression scenarios, I think can all be ruled out as it doesn't fit what happened. The complex scenarios such as "take-over" (complex hijack), or complex fire, are the two most likely... each have their huge missing pieces of the jigsaw though...  

So I guess this topic will continue at a rate of 2 a day (it did peak at 3 parts a day did it?)



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinefooflyboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 81744 times:

From prior (now locked) thread:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 171):
Pilot's unions would most likely never allow that. Some don't even like CVRs

I say good luck with that

After the publicized unauthorized cockpit visits alone, I would imagine video might be proposed for cockpits. This is already being proposed for railroad locomotives as well. No it's not popular, but I would think privacy is a secondary concern when you are in control of a common carrier mode of transportation.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 80072 times:

Quoting fooflyboy (Reply 8):
After the publicized unauthorized cockpit visits alone, I would imagine video might be proposed for cockpits. This is already being proposed for railroad locomotives as well. No it's not popular, but I would think privacy is in secondary concern when you are in control of a common carrier mode of transportation

And what do you think we would learn that isn't already captured by the CVR/DFDR? These "unauthorized" cockpit visits were dealt with by the airlines already and even if you do capture one on video the tapes are only reviewed if there's and incident and overwritten after a specified amount of time. With AF 447 we would have learned nothing more if a cockpit camera was present.

IIRC, both the PF and the PNF's instrument displays are captured in the recording as well as any discussions the pilots are having. It would only be a "feel good" regulation that wouldn't improve safety.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineabba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 79296 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 7):
The complex scenarios such as "take-over" (complex hijack), or complex fire, are the two most likely... each have their huge missing pieces of the jigsaw though...  

And as time is going by these scenarios becomes less likely. People are not just doing a hijack out of the blue. Hijacking an aircraft these days takes a lot of planning and involves huge personal risk for the involved. They, therefore, must have some kind of motivation for doing such things - strong and extreme political views or religious ideas or some kind of nebulous combination of the two. And such things cannot be kept secret by the people involved!

We can for one very good reason not investigate very much what went on in the cockpit of flight MH370. However, we can look very carefully into the background of the people on board that flight. And I am absolutely sure that if there were potential terrorists or hijack'ers we would have known by now. I am even sure that we would have a good chance of knowing even if an undercover agent were on the passenger list.

Save for the early rumors of the captain's family problems - that has later been proven false - there has been silence on this front ever since the disappearance. And this lack of news is in my mind as important as a report would have been telling us that a group of terrorists flew on MH370.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2659 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 79276 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
ith AF 447 we would have learned nothing more if a cockpit camera was present.

Perhaps not AF 447, but there are a great many accidents that could have been better understood or indeed completely solved if the investigators could see what was happening in the flight deck.
9/11 for instance, PSA 1771, PSA 182, Itavia 870, Helios 522, Hughes Airwest 706...

The list goes on.

[Edited 2014-03-22 12:16:58]


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlinefooflyboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78928 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
And what do you think we would learn that isn't already captured by the CVR/DFDR?

I think recording the entire flight instead of the last 2 hours only would tell us much more. Plus like it or not, there is a perception issue, which does count for something.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
even if you do capture one on video the tapes are only reviewed if there's and incident and overwritten after a specified amount of time.

Exactly. So no one chould be concerned about "privacy".

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
With AF 447 we would have learned nothing more if a cockpit camera was present.

But with MH370 we most likely would. (speculating of course)

Thanks for the reply canoecarrier.


User currently onlineflyinggoat From United States of America, joined Apr 2013, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78606 times:

Is the 777 equipped with CO detectors in the cockpit area? I would assume so, but if not, perhaps a small fire could have caused CO poisoning, which can lead to confusion, amongst other side-effects.

Probably very unlikely, but at this stage, you never know...


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78521 times:

Quoting fooflyboy (Reply 12):
Exactly. So no one chould be concerned about "privacy".

I think the privacy concerns are more about being watched for random reasons that don't have to do accidents/incidents. I think it's a valid concern but I'm pretty sure companies can't randomly pull CVRs so if they did the same for video, is there harm in that?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78184 times:
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I am not sure what value video would add to the CVR recordings, as already mentioned, I believe information regarding the readings of various instruments is already recorded by the FDR.

One thing I am sure of though, even for seasoned investigators it must be pretty harrowing listening to the recordings and hearing people who know they're about to die, I hate to think what it would be like having to watch as well.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78076 times:

Quoting abba (Reply 10):
there has been silence on this front ever since the disappearance. And this lack of news is in my mind as important as a report would have been telling us that a group of terrorists flew on MH370.

It might be important - but it could be important for exactly the opposite reason you think it is. (Do you not see the flipside of the authorities *not* saying they've checked all passengers and crew, and cleared them all?) Much of this type of speculation is like that - it works equally well both ways, and it's down to your own personal biases how you see it.

The actual evidence we have today is the same as the evidence we had several days ago - nothing has really changed.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinefooflyboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 78049 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I think the privacy concerns are more about being watched for random reasons that don't have to do accidents/incidents.

You're probably right. It would make sense to be concerned about that I suppose. But I would hope that airlines would be more professionally managed and that abuse of monitoring systems would not occur.

I believe I read somewhere recently that the meter readers for our regional power utility have had cameras installed in their vehicles. I don't think I would like that. But the technology is so cheap now it's becoming ubiquitous. It's gonna be hard to justify excluding it from commercial aircraft IMO.


User currently offlinefooflyboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77883 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15):
I am not sure what value video would add to the CVR recordings, as already mentioned, I believe information regarding the readings of various instruments is already recorded by the FDR.

My point is for extending CVRs to record the entire flight. Video would just be a plus.


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1593 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77915 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 11):
Perhaps not AF 447, but there are a great many accidents that could have been better understood or indeed completely solved if the investigators could see what was happening in the flight deck.
9/11 for instance, PSA 1771, PSA 182, Itavia 870, Helios 522, Hughes Airwest 706...

I think 9/11, PSA1771 and 182 as well as Helios 522 are all thoroughly understood -- could you provide some enlightenment as to what other benefit cameras would have provided except watching it on the evening news?


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77697 times:

On the assumption that when MH370 started to run out of fuel and no one at the control:
.
Would the auto-pilot adjust for one engine running out of fuel before the other or disengage ?

If the loss of an engine due to fuel starvation (as happened in the Helios flight) and the auto is still on, and no one flying, would the a/c continue on it's original path but with difficulty ?

Would the a/c glide straight ahead on the last autopilot setting, doing a 'belly' landing, or stall and go into a flat spin (like I believe AF 447 did) or go into a steep dive ?

Would the a/c pitch nose down or tail down or go to left or right (depending on which engine cut out first) and crash 'pinwheel' style ?

The reasons I ask this is that depending on how the a/c was positioned when it hit the water could explain why large parts of the a/c breaking up and floating, which could explain the large pieces that satellites have seen could be parts of MH 379 a/c. An a/c's speed, pitch and roll position on impact can make a difference from a lot of large pieces (AF 447 with like a flat or near flat hitting the water) or small pieces (ValueJet in Florida which pretty much hit on it's nose).


User currently offlineLindenwold From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77669 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):

Yeah, thoroughly understood after years of investigating.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77493 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
except watching it on the evening news?

Can't answer your question, I'm open to hearing arguments for/against video, but they would NOT make it to the evening news. Try and find CVR recordings on the internet... there are very few because they are now not released to the public.

As long as every switch, dial, etc is monitored and we have voice recordings, I'm having a hard time thinking of how video would help. But if it would help in enough accidents and isn't prohibitively expensive*, then I would say go for it, granted the public would never see it and airlines couldn't just snoop in whenever they wanted**

*Money isn't everything, but it is something (a point I've made earlier.) Sometimes we deem that the airlines should pay for extra safety, but other times they would be overly burdened

**In aviation, I like the attitude a lot of the higher ups have... they often have the means to punish individuals but don't go investigating too much. There is a trust where safety issues (minor routine ones, not gross negligence ones) can be anonymously reported and corrected without having to slam pilots. Pilots are professionals, and all professionals will slip a bit, but ruining careers may not be needed, it may be as simple as telling them to cut it out because it's unsafe

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
Would the auto-pilot adjust for one engine running out of fuel before the other or disengage ?

I could be wrong (correct me if I am indeed wrong) but the autopilot and autothrottles should be able to continue. The initial engine out may mess with the trim needed enough to kick off the autopilot and the autopilot may be unable to keep high altitude/airspeed, but at least in the 737, autopilot is used to aid the pilot in single engine ops (but autothrottle is not used even though it can work, theoretically.) Keep in mind, it may be different airline to airline, maybe, but I think a lot of the procedures I'm talking about come from Boeing (and again, only talking about the 737)

[Edited 2014-03-22 13:00:37]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 77227 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
On the assumption that when MH370 started to run out of fuel and no one at the control:
.
Would the auto-pilot adjust for one engine running out of fuel before the other or disengage ?

If the loss of an engine due to fuel starvation (as happened in the Helios flight) and the auto is still on, and no one flying, would the a/c continue on it's original path but with difficulty ?

Would the a/c glide straight ahead on the last autopilot setting, doing a 'belly' landing, or stall and go into a flat spin (like I believe AF 447 did) or go into a steep dive ?

I am not a 777 pilot and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt, especially since it is based on secondary sources.

I remember reading that the 777 has a system called TAC, Thrust Asymmetry Compensation that will automatically compensate for a misbehaving engine if such a thing were to occur. In that scenario, if the designated heading/altitude can be maintained, I believe the autopilot should remain active but warnings will be delivered to the pilots. Once the heading/altitude cannot be maintained, the autopilot should disconnect. In that case, with no one at the controls, the aircraft will likely eventually roll just due to winds or otherwise descend rapidly into terrain, as no one is giving any authority to the control surfaces to keep the plane in a glide.

Again. Private pilot, not 777 pilot. But that's what I've read.

[Edited 2014-03-22 13:06:57]


A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinecougar15 From Australia, joined Sep 2013, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 76982 times:
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Quoting nupogodi (Reply 23):
I remember reading that the 777 has a system called TAC, Thrust Asymmetry Compensation that will automatically compensate for a misbehaving engine if such a thing were to occur

this is indeed the case, certainly on the later models (and my knowledge only extends to Frames built after 2009) !



flying is making it home on time!
25 Mir : The autopilot will attempt to stall the airplane. The stall protection system will kick in and push the nose over to prevent the stall, and will disc
26 canoecarrier : I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where the flight crew or passengers are conscious as the plane continued flying the track it did for 7 or
27 Post contains links and images Pihero : Your post is puzzling, as so far no one has provided any evidence of all these trajectories or manoeuvres. The only known facts are : - A straightfor
28 iberiadc852 : Except their primary target were not exactly to hijack a Malasyain aircraft full of a bunch of nationalities, but being this a secondary one. Then th
29 Mir : That's Airbus FBW. I don't believe that Boeing FBW does the same thing. -Mir
30 awthompson : I'm also sadly starting to think more about the fire scenario, even with all of the problems making it fit the facts. But just to go back to the hijac
31 by738 : A fire but no ability to transmit a message in any shape or form ? I find that unlikely.
32 phantomx18 : Not sure if this has been asked before. . .but has cell phone/camcorder video ever been pulled from passengers after a crash? Would solid state media
33 bueb0g : Actually there are definitely questions about Helios 522, with recent re-appraisals of the evidence pointing quite strongly to the pressurisation sys
34 hivue : So can anyone come up with some minimum set of concurrent failures that would be required to get the plane from Pihero's "only known facts" to a spec
35 Post contains links Mouldypete : Coming from an airline pilot your comments automatically demand respect. The turn back by MH370 just after IGARI, postulated from primary radar track
36 Post contains links NAV30 : Apparently quite a lot more 'debris' is being found at the moment. Too early to say, though, whether any of it relates to MH370. http://www.abc.net.au
37 canoecarrier : Thank you for the explanation. Probably academic though. It would only help to know this if they can figure out where it ran out of fuel. Doubtful. T
38 Post contains images Pihero : See the T7 flight controls and you'll be surprised. If anything, because of C* which includes speed stability - which the 'Bus doesn't have, it shoul
39 Post contains links WingedMigrator : There is precedent for that, with a sudden fire in the cockpit of a 777-200 in Cairo. The crew was unable to call for help from the cockpit. I doubt
40 GZed : Did the Malaysian Air 777's get cockpit door upgrades post 9/11? If so then the cockpit doors are lockable from the inside and are bullet proof. What
41 ranold76 : I've never been so disheartened and disappointed by the media, politicians, technology and humanity in my life. Failure on SO MANY LEVELS. I've stoppe
42 Post contains links Razza74 : http://planefinder.net/ showing vh-vhd heading out to the Southern Indian Ocean right now
43 Post contains links SouthernBelle : Have you not seen the newest radar data? I think it's very interesting. It shows MH370 flying from waypoint VAMPI to MEKAR: Here is the data with a m
44 md80fanatic : The same was said of the NSA's ability to monitor personal cell phones and computers. That didn't end well obviously. Power corrupts, remember? There
45 hivue : I understand that (Pihero mentioned all we really "know"). I'm just taking one of the many theories that have been floated (a much better one than, e
46 StuckInCA : I'm pretty sure people in most workplaces are able to be monitored by their employers. Recorded even. I could be mistaken, but I believe that to be t
47 Post contains images NAV30 : More than interesting, SouthernBelle - on the face of it that (especially the last turn) blows my 'incapacitated pilots' theory out of the water! Not
48 Post contains links SouthernBelle : Right, it's always good to look at sources! Here's the original page, in Chinese: http://photo.china.com.cn/news/2014-03/21/content_31863360.htm and
49 Post contains images md80fanatic : With the exception of our employees in Washington D.C. The employers (you and I) and in the dark. Yep, I'm tired of being treated as if I have done s
50 undertheradar : as day breaks over the southern indian ocean..we can only hope 'something' comes to fruition and can be POSITIVELY identified as 'something' from MH3
51 Post contains links and images GZed : Check this out. I have added a few extra points beyond what we know : http://skyvector.com/?ll=-9.39703903...R:F.WM.NILAM:F.WI.VIROT:F.VC.NIXUL This
52 rj777 : That cargo pallet could be from the MH370 cargo hold.
53 Mouldypete : I think you may have missed a major point. The tracks plotted by the NTSB START from the last supposedly known radar positions. The whole premise of
54 WingedMigrator : Beg to differ, this map doesn't show squat. Except that the sky is full of waypoints, enough to ascribe a drifting flight path to some sort of deviou
55 GZed : I don't agree. The predicted north and south route starting point is based on the 3:11 and 4:11 Inmarsat pings, both showing the same distance from t
56 Post contains links SouthernBelle : Fun stuff! Your second map, as far as I've read, is entirely derived data- Inmarsat has actually only released the very last ping, for whatever reaso
57 Post contains links ltbewr : Another terrible and strange twist for the Malaysian Government and the families of victims - the Malaysian Formula 1 Grand Prix race is to be held ne
58 Mouldypete : Sorry but I am puzzled, I do not see a 3:11 'ping' location on the BBC map. As far as I am aware we have not been given any data on 'pings' and their
59 GZed : OK, in part yes. But, Inmarsat obviously believe that by 3:11 the aircraft was at or near the 4:11 ping line (within the margin for error). If the a/
60 747-600X : How is this still a matter of confusion? That map only shows ONE ping - the one indicated by the massive, red circle. There's only one ping shown. Tha
61 GZed : I understand this, but as others have stated, they MUST have used all 7 ping calculations to come up with the most likely tracks. When you put the pu
62 GZed : Sure, but they DID go ahead and choose a starting point based on the data, and that starting point is not on the line of the a/c's last known heading
63 Post contains images NAV30 : Agreed not made up, SouthernBelle- but as it happened I spent a bit of time in coastal artillery many years back. In those days all you got was fuzzy
64 GZed : Please keep in mind that the purple track lines are "Published NTSB highest probability solutions*". Therefore, they MUST be based on the 7 pings, reg
65 nupogodi : Where in the world are you getting the data for 0311L and 0411L pings? That hasn't been published. What are you even talking about? How does "it foll
66 Post contains links dragon6172 : Agree with your assessment of the radar track. However, what you plotted on the Skyvector map appears incorrect. Seems to me that the radar track sho
67 monjonman : Have there been any more details released of the alleged phone call made before take off from the mystery woman who phoned captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah
68 GZed : At this point I'm going to remain faithful that the 2 purple "Published NTSB highest probability solutions*" are based on accurate data. So from that
69 747megatop : I would think so too. The video should be used only in the case of an incident; purely to improve safety. But, this would involve a big effort on the
70 777Jet : But just because one might want to conceal their identity does not necessarily mean that they are planning a crime or are a criminal. Interesting non
71 Post contains images mandala499 : If you want to look at the captain, why not look into the FO. I think the media prefers to go after the captain just because he has a simulator. The
72 seb146 : So, if (and I am just speculating) IF the debris floating in the south Indian Ocean really is MH370, could any of that debris wash ashore in Australia
73 777Jet : The Indian Ocean current chart I saw moves anti-clockwise, so debris in the Southern Indian Ocean would first move from West to East before moving No
74 GZed : I shouldn't have used the word "point" for the 3:11 ping. Of course it is a small arc, resulting from the Inmarsat ping margin of error. It's even mo
75 B777fan : You're correct that the data hasn't been published yet but I think this might help explain what he is getting at. We know there were hourly pings. Th
76 Post contains images NAV30 : First of all, thanks for the meticulous and informative post. About Penang, I said a couple of threads ago that I thought that, in the event of havin
77 Post contains links Razza74 : Here in Perth there is a North-South current called the Leeuwin Current, this brings warm water from the tropics South along the Western Australian co
78 monjonman : Yeah if anything was to wash up it would more likely be along the southern coast towards South Australia or west coast of Tasmania unless it is able
79 rj777 : Let's just hope it doesn't float south towards Antarctica!
80 Post contains links p51tang : Quote: The purpose of the hourly "handshakes" is to allow the satellite to know the approximate location of the aircraft so that it can efficiently re
81 Post contains links Sandgroper : The Chinese Ilyushins mistakenly landed at Perth International Airport yesterday instead of Pearce: http://aegwaspotters.blogspot.com.au...lyushin-il-
82 Post contains links and images mandala499 : Don't worry about it too much... I know what you meant... just wanted to make sure the others know what you mean. The highest grid MORA from IGARI to
83 monjonman : Well I guess at least they got the right city and not Perth Tasmania!
84 BackSeater : and a quote from the article above dated 17 March: "We're trying to get up to speed on what that means and how to interpret it," one U.S. official to
85 Post contains images mandala499 : At the poles it would be out of coverage, hence would be at less than 0º... but 0º doesn't apply to the poles only (just to make that clear for tho
86 tim73 : So the pinging in black boxes works for 30 days, right? So they got 15 days to go. “It certainly depends on the location,” Sarah McComb, chief of
87 Post contains links p51tang : Seems to me that 475kts is the trade off between (urgency and flight range).Am I right in suggesting that the normal cruising speed for the 777 is ap
88 Shmendr : CNN just quoted (5:50am EST) Malaysian Defense/Transportation minister stating that he has received new satellite images from the French authorities s
89 Post contains links GZed : For those of you wanting a visual representation of what mandala499 just said, click here: http://skyvector.com/?ll=4.175498331...7:F.WM.NILAM:F.VO.I
90 art : Any indication of the position of this (possible) debris?
91 monjonman : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-fXhAIqFO4&list=UU4onRb7Ythq0ud2VyzxthLg I have not seen this video posted yet from AMSA which went up a couple o
92 cand : Possible motive: political blackmail (release captain's uncle from jail), maybe planned to blackmail during flight (like the heist to Geneva a few we
93 art : If only the UK still had Nimrods - I believe that max endurance was 22 hours which would have enabled each aircraft to spend many hours in the search
94 Airvan00 : I expect they knew exactly what they were doing. The international requirements for entering Australia, specify what ports are acceptable, usually th
95 Starlionblue : This was already covered a couple of threads ago. Endurance of 16-20 hours is only possible if almost the entire flight time is spent at endurance sp
96 Post contains links ChaosTheory : According to parliamentary publications, the MRA4 would have had a 2400nm range with 3 hours on station in a SAR capacity. In this instance, I would
97 uta999 : Quoting David Meany From BBC News website In today's world why do we still have to rely on finding two metal boxes at the bottom of the ocean to find
98 Post contains images tim73 : One thing is clear, we treat oceans as our personal junkyard
99 Starlionblue : We may be progressing towards the real-time data age. However consider this. Real time data is well within the achievable, but it is not without cost
100 tim73 : At least transponders should not be able to shutdown from the plane while flying or at least should be able to turn on by radar if needed.
101 Starlionblue : We've been through this numerous times in this discussion. The transponder can be turned off for a several reasons, one being power cycling in case o
102 alfons : Because in today's (commercial) world, everything is weighted by the proportion of business need/investition (capex, opex). Luckily, airplanes still
103 uta999 : Radar is reaching the end of its shelf life. In future, aircraft will be controlled in 3D real-time based on Satellite information. It's worth startin
104 Starlionblue : I don't think you understand how the technology works. There is nothing magic about satellites. If the pilots turn off transmission from the plane, h
105 DTW2HYD : How twin engine jets like A319 and few other business jets are able to participate in this search? What kind of ETOPS rating they need or no need for
106 tim73 : Then it should be connected to automatic fire alarm system and sends a code indicating fire before shutdown. The pilot should not be able to turn it
107 LTC8K6 : FR24's track ends with a turn to the right, actually. In the last data the heading is 25, then 28, then 40 degrees. BITOD is a right turn from IGARI
108 atnight : I have a question, is Boeing doing anything to assist locating the airplane? I have not heard anything or seen any news report concerning Boeing and w
109 Post contains links and images mandala499 : Allow me to be picky... This is a better version: http://bit.ly/1ir4SqS Refreshed every 60 seconds? OMG! ADS-B can already do it at 2x a second! Why
110 Post contains images mandala499 : OK, let's start a fake fire... alarm goes off... switches it off... Or better, just cut the damn wire if you can... Hurray! At least someone noticed
111 jox : FR24 themselves noticed this. They posted the text below on their Facebook page on March 9. ====== The ADS-B transponder of an aircraft is transmitti
112 BackSeater : Do you know whether radar altitudes have been published for the whole track recorded by the military radar shown of the slide entitled "Military rada
113 DeltaMD90 : Don't mean to be rude, but you don't seem to know much about air operations. Just 2 flights ago I had to shut off the transponder and turn it back on
114 tim73 : What I am saying, is better system integration. ACARS kept on sending pings despite transponder turned off. So you cannot so easily shutdown all comm
115 PipoA380 : Here's a quick question: -The place where debris were supposedly seen is 6000km away from the loss of contact point. At that point, it had already flo
116 spyglass : OK, I have a ? 4 anyone here holding an ATR and flying anything from 737/319 size and up, or anyone holding an A&P specializing in acft systems. I
117 Starlionblue : You're adding logic which prevents the pilots from instantly shutting a system down. Again, this means more risk for every single flight in order to
118 Kaiarahi : ACARS sent nothing. It was disabled (note - neutral word). SATCOM was performing 'handshakes'.
119 Kaiarahi : Discussed multiple times on previous threads. Yes.
120 tim73 : So you already got a communication channel there. Could it be shutdown by pilot without ripping of the modem? What happens in case of fire?
121 Post contains links Kaiarahi : It would be really helpful and reduce uninformed clutter if you read some of the earlier threads. Look for the latest (excellent) summary posted by r
122 Post contains links cat3appr50 : Quoting Mandala499 "Allow me to be picky... biggrin This is a better version: http://bit.ly/1ir4SqS" Is this the current reported understanding of MH3
123 frmrCapCadet : Information sent to a satellite at a more frequent interval, say every 5 minutes, would in itself provide decent tracking information. The data could
124 Post contains images mandala499 : Would the raw feedster have higher interval resolution than this? (if he's using the standard FR24 receiver, then forget I asked)... I'm interested i
125 ExpatExp : As with many safety issues, some cost is likely worth it. I wonder how much time, money and human suffering could be avoided for that one incident ev
126 Skydrol : Any modern piece of electronics will have its own internal fuses or fusible resistors which will prevent the device from going up in flames long befo
127 Post contains links and images avlnative : Whilst reading this article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-phone-bypass-security-checks.html I came across the reader comment "This aircraft
128 Kaiarahi : Only if the aircraft stayed within SSR coverage - which it didn't.
129 tim73 : Transponder requires 200 watts but your typical Inmarsat handset only about 6 watts. So that could be the way to create alternative path for location
130 dc9northwest : It's the Daily Mail. Draw your own conclusions.
131 BackSeater : That is not the way satcoms work. User comm data is never stored on the satellite. The up/down link between satellite and earth station is cheap beca
132 capri : This is getting weirder and weirder, now authorities said no route change prior to last transmission
133 David L : As has been said many times, fire is not the only reason for switching off a transponder, e.g. high traffic density, malfunction other than arcing. I
134 Post contains images Pihero : OUPS ! My bad. Of course you're right ( no pun ). Please folks, replace the direction of the turn to *right*. The rest of the sentence is unchanged.
135 Post contains links PanAmPaul : I don't see this covered yet but the Australian PM announced "credible leads" in the search, although they are still small leads and may not lead to a
136 Post contains images mandala499 : Wow! What system is that? Sign me up tomorrow for that one! Try multiply that by 100 perhaps 1000 for 1 flight hour, depending on what you really wan
137 Finn350 : I think the PM is referring to the three sets of satellite images (commercial US DigiGlobe, Chinese, and French). I would presume that the plane debr
138 art : There seems to be a big delay between satellite images being taken and the identification of anomalies that might indicate debris. For satellite image
139 Pihero : The reason I have little faith with *official* radar-obtained positions is the posts above totally contradict the Thai nAir Force claim that " Flight
140 evomutant : Because they would have every wave, shadow and cloud tagged by people who don;t know what they are doing.
141 Starlionblue : Note that I said per ticket, not per flight. In an industry where margins per passenger are in many cases measured in individual US$, ½ a dollar is
142 Post contains images Pihero : I know for a fact that a VHF-transmitted weather message costs a big user 2€... and more for a sat-transmitted one. Just one of the things captains
143 Gonzalo : I have a question ( from my very ignorant position on the matter ). Search area west of Australian coast is concentrating a big effort to find some fl
144 art : Other way round IMO - the images flagged as not of interest would go to the back of the queue for analysis.
145 Pihero : A friend of mine is a recce / sat image interpreter. It's a very specialised job we certainly won't trust Joe Six-Pack to do.
146 BackSeater : Since the early threads I have stumbled on many references to FLxxx, for instance:: - FL450 ( and therefore "hey aircraft over its service level)! - F
147 Post contains images mandala499 : Is that for a simple METAR or a multiple entry weather message? ACARS 'chained messages' are hideously expensive I hear... I have the AeroH+ price fo
148 Post contains images Kaiarahi : For the same reason we don't have untrained people triaging CAT scans or MRTs.
149 cougar15 : Germany anounced today that they will be sending a couple of navy frigates to support the search efforts. These are equiped with very hightech Mini S
150 Post contains links and images Gonzalo : Thank you Mandala !!! A long trip indeed !! Although the modern Frigates can be very fast compared to other ships.... There is sea fog in the área o
151 Burkhard : They will need two weeks to arrive at location I'm afraid, but to me it indicates that there is far more Information available now than public...
152 akberc : Was there a ping at 2:11, or should there have been one? If pings happen after no message for one hour, when did the first hour start? The categorica
153 alfons : you're right if there would be no competition (monopol). And maybe there's no. But if there is, the providers will take the opportunity to increase c
154 ExpatExp : Yes, exactly -- there is likely a cost that a majority of people would consider "worth it", and it would be heavily dependent on the influences menti
155 Post contains links 320tech : In fact this is being done. http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/mh370_indian_ocean The site doesn't load for me, but maybe it works for others. There
156 AeroVega : It appears that whoever was flying the plane did his best not to be detected or found. I'm afraid he may have deliberately flown to one of the deepest
157 hivue : Take a look at a globe of the earth. If you postulate an aircraft with no human controlling, place it (e.g.) in the Malacca Strait, and allow it to f
158 capri : how about debris drifted to Antarctica with all those furious and screaming winds, is anyone patrolling the shores of that continent???
159 Post contains images David L : I think the various navies involved might know a thing or two about how the sea works. They'll look where the evidence points them.
160 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : http://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/map/wind/oceania#map_container for example... For floating debris, the wind might be more important than oceanic c
161 abba : I don't think it works both ways. Have the authorities found that there were terrorists on board I highly doubt that it would not have leaked somehow
162 Post contains links Finn350 : CNN reports that the Malaysian officials have said in a written statement that the turn was not pre-programmed. Whoever turned the plane didn't pre-pr
163 David L : Well, yes, but I'd include that in "how the sea works" - i.e. I don't think the various navies are likely to forget to take wind and currents into ac
164 AeroVega : I didn't say remote, I said deep. As in below the surface. Somewhere were a plane resting on the seabed would be very difficult to find.
165 Viscount724 : Yes they are. Boeing's website says they are assisting the NTSB on site.
166 DeltaMD90 : Wait a minute there... your quote says this: That is different than what you said. Did the Malaysians actually say the turn was not pre-programmed or
167 Finn350 : Yes, they said they have no evidence it was pre-programmed. Or more precisely, the 1:07 am ACARS transmission did not contain the turn deviating from
168 fooflyboy : I fear he/she/they might have been successful. The water search is getting all of the media attention, but am I correct in assuming that the northern
169 Lindenwold : All these satellite images and still nothing. I know the Indian Ocean is huge, but it's still frustrating.
170 osloflyer : So many unanswered questions still, In the video from the crews security screening, why are they walking together? seems odd to me, is the crew lounge
171 rc135x : This is a worthy inquiry. Is there any official indication that the "northern arc" is still under examination, particularly for the crashed remains o
172 capri : Everyone is asking same questions you are, but unlike western countries, Malaysians officials have other ideas to keep hold of all these infos until
173 hivue : The captain was a last minute substitution.
174 David L : It's not exactly a straight forward search and investigation.
175 Post contains links WingedMigrator : It wasn't a theory. It used to be an "established fact". From rcair1's Sanity Check: Which goes to show that we should be very wary of "established f
176 akberc : Sadly, they've done their job: reinforcing stereotypes that we struggle with every day. And the credibility of the 'ex-generals' will not be hurt --
177 Kaiarahi : That's NOT what they said. NOT the same thing. A further 14 minutes elapsed AFTER the ACARS transmission before transponder data was lost at 1721UTC.
178 hivue : This is all old news anyway, isn't it?
179 captainx : CNN reports an altitude drop to 12kft right after the turn. If there was smoke in the cockpit they may have shut off much of the cockpit electronics i
180 DeltaMD90 : But no comms? Did the fire shut that down? Did the flight crew themselves shut it off (without making at least one call?) The fire incapacitated the
181 Kaiarahi : Yes and no. It's an added detail as to when the new waypoints may/may not have been input. But the distorted interpretation is new - and wrong.
182 Lindenwold : Did they ever confirm that other pilot contacting 370 (mumbling and such)?
183 flyenthu : I think this was not (at least on this forum) a sure thing, and the pre-programing issue has been in doubt for a while- except that the media was rep
184 Post contains links flyenthu : This whole incident is nothing short of wild and bizarre. NYT is reporting the "mumbling" sound as a fact. Check this interesting article: http://www
185 David L : I don't want to labour the point but what was the source? I only saw "media reports" that someone had said that. I never actually heard it "from the
186 hivue : One of the most difficult aspects of trying to follow this whole bizarre incident is trying to identify "the horse." As near as I can tell so far the
187 Post contains images David L : I think we've already established that you and I have been interpreting things differently. I'm talking about the investigators at the press conferen
188 Post contains images hivue : So am I.
189 wjcandee : Not impossible. What's being said in the cockpit and out of it are amazingly-dissimilar. AF447 -- no Mayday. ValuJet -- What's the reason for return?
190 777Jet : Sorry If I missed it, but was this confirmed by authorities? This came up a week ago, and then was apparently a rumor... So, it is fact that the Capt
191 Post contains images hivue : I never heard that it was refuted by authorities. Perhaps I am guilty of I'm overstating it. (See my prior posts regarding "the horse.") [Edited 2014
192 Starlionblue : I don't see how them walking together indicates anything beyond the fact that they were walking together. They might have bumped into each other outs
193 WingedMigrator : Under a fire scenario: We don't know that the crew was ever incapacitated. We also don't know that the crew was "flying" the aircraft in the sense of
194 Fastphilly : The problem is the Malaysian Govt. not being forthcoming with news to improve the search. Now we hear of a 12,000 altitude which diminishes the range.
195 Post contains links PanAmPaul : There appears to be new informationi about MH370 that says it executed a high dive to 12,000 feet before going off radar MH370 Descent to 12,000 Feet
196 Lindenwold : like wise..
197 DeltaMD90 : Why do the Malaysians seem to have such a hard time figuring out what the plane did from their radar? Do their radars suck that badly that they take w
198 awthompson : So now all of the efforts in the Southern Ocean could be a waste of time and resources. I don't personally think that the debris satellites have spott
199 DeltaMD90 : How so? The radar analysis has nothing to do with the satellites and pings. It may shed more light on what happened early on but shouldn't have anyth
200 777Jet : Nothing about the mumbling in that article... Wasn't the mumbling first said to have been heard by a Vietnamese Airliner? I remember in one of the pr
201 MSY-MSP : There are too many pieces to this puzzle that are just not adding up. I am sure at some point in time we will understand what has happened and maybe e
202 nupogodi : Shouldn't be. Military radars for the past 50 years have been easily capable of determining altitude, albeit not always extremely precisely. I don't
203 David L : They've been working with the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR and several other bodies including help with analysing the primary radar data so placing the bla
204 aftgaffe : What do you all think of this: If MH 370 did dive to 12,000 feet shortly after contact with ATC was lost then at least one of these things is likely t
205 N328KF : The problem is that there have been several credible news reports (WSJ, NYT, etc.) who published stories indicating that the Malaysians missed, sat o
206 PW100 : Sure it has; altitude has a strong influence on max calculated range. Remember the ping arcs, are just that, arcs. If the airplane was flying (consis
207 Post contains links twincessna340a : The UK is sending one of their underwater survey ships from the Persian Gulf. http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-...o-assist-in-malaysia-plane-search
208 Finn350 : The authorities have the radar data indicating the flight level at last radar contact at 2:15 am. Most likely the plane was at a cruise altitude. Thi
209 gulfstream650 : This was mentioned before somewhere in the MH370 abyss. Apparently she has just been refitted so hopefully that will help!? -------------------------
210 DeltaMD90 : Doh, didn't even think about that. So I guess the NTSB's previous tracks were based off a higher altitude and TAS?
211 markalot : I tune out for a day and now CNN is once again reporting new leads. Is this true, or just more incompetence from either CNN or Malaysia and a rehashin
212 PW100 : Most, if not all of that data has been worked on and analyzed by TSB, FAA, BEA, etc. Especially since the last 10 days. And that data seems to includ
213 Pihero : Good point. Add to it that - as amply proven in this forum - talking sensibly about technical matters onehasn't really got a grasp of is certainly no
214 PW100 : Not necessarily. Endurance would not be affected too much by lower altitude. True air speed and ground speed on the other hand . . . PW100
215 Finn350 : OK. But I still believe that the NTSB has some information which leads them to believe the plane to be in the southern Indian Ocean. It is hard to be
216 aftgaffe : Exactly. Assuming the info about 12,000 ft is true and assuming the plane was back at cruise level sometime after, how can what happened be explained
217 solarflyer22 : That was my understanding as well. The US supplies a lot of their hardware though their Air Force flies Russian Planes and American planes. I am sure
218 WingedMigrator : But would the setting be kept, in an unpiloted scenario? (and I do mean autopilot off) What would the 777 FBW do in the absence of control inputs?
219 MarkAK : At lower altitude, does the fuel consumption rate vs time increase..... or the fuel consumption rate per mile ...or both? In other words, could the pl
220 nupogodi : Fuel burn increases if speed stays constant.
221 suseJ772 : But ground speed cannot stay constant no? Isn't it impossible to achieve the same ground speed at 12,000 then at FL35. So wouldn't both decrease?
222 David L : No, sorry, not particularly credible in my view. I'm not saying it's been perfect but, for example, the reports of them sitting on evidence fail to a
223 nupogodi : Ground speed is irrelevant. TAS is relevant since it is the air going through where the engines are pointing (mostly). I don't have access to 777 man
224 65mustang : Here is the raw FR24 data. If mh370 turned to the right on hdg 40 at 1:21, st what time did the left turn seen by military radar occur? Following is a
225 Mutt : I used to immerse myself in the KC-135 E and R charts for range and endurance. I will say, for those engine on that airframe, the best endurance altit
226 LTC8K6 : Is there any reason a new flight path couldn't have been entered after 1:07?
227 WingedMigrator : I missed this at first reading, but no part of the last ping locus is anywhere close to New Guinea. You would have to discount the satellite pings en
228 Post contains images mandala499 : I can only say that to the public knowledge, it appears so that he was "enjoying the sweet life". I don't think it is appropriate for me to go beyond
229 Post contains links 777Jet : A link to an article about how Malaysia is holding back from releasing the full cargo manifest: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...mh370-informati
230 7BOEING7 : Below around FL280 you're limited to about 340 kias -- at 12,000' that's about .63M.
231 nupogodi : That's an interesting piece of information... The question was though about fuel burn at 12000, and if it's even possible to maintain typical cruise
232 JoeCanuck : There is nothing I can contribute to these threads since this is totally out of my wheelhouse, but I do appreciate those with knowledge and insight sh
233 NAV30 : I think another question is, why were they at 12,000 feet in the first place? As far as I recall, 12,000 is the limit for un-pressurised or de-pressu
234 nupogodi : FARs say no more than 30min between 12500 and 14000 without oxygen, and 0min without oxygen above 14000 (cabin altitude). But that's America. It's a
235 175erj : CNN: Crew of Chinese plane searching for MH370 has spotted "suspicious objects" in south Indian Ocean, China's state-run media reports.
236 laxboeingman : I was just about to post that. It comes after they found wood, I think in pallet form, in the ocean earlier today.
237 175erj : Interesting they don't report what it is they found... just 'objects.' Well, what are these objects.
238 laxboeingman : They probably cannot tell what they are from the image or whatever source they saw it on. They will have to send a crew out to look for it, but by th
239 Post contains images lazybones : Not so sure about that?? I've jumped several times from this altitude without oxygen, and you're up there way longer than zero minutes waiting for ot
240 175erj : Well since it was from a plane, I was hoping it was something they had an actual visual on.
241 Post contains links laxboeingman : I am sorry if this was asked and answered before, but how did the officials know it dropped to 12,000 feet and how did they just discover it now and n
242 fooflyboy : I can't help but wonder if they're just finding what was already floating in the Indian Ocean to begin with. But I continue to hope that they find de
243 Post contains images 65mustang : Did the 40000 fps fall data come from primary radar data or was it Rolls Royce engine data? If it is engine data, what kind of sensor determines this?
244 lazybones : I think the opposite, they have had false confirmations of objects floating in the water (via satellite photos) since the start of the search. But in
245 NAV30 : All I can say is, mate, when I was flying sailplanes and the odd Cessna the best part of 50 years ago, 'twelve thousand or less' was drummed into me!
246 spacecadet : Ah, and here you're trying to make more logical jumps. I never said anything like what you're implying. What I was responding to was someone saying t
247 jetfuel : There is no credible evidence about this drop to 12,000 ft. Without an active encoding transponder how can they make this statement. CAUTION - so muc
248 photchan : A Long-Time A.net reader and previous member (probably about 6 years ago!).... I've been following this discussion as best as possible over the 40+ th
249 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Well, lets hope the Chinese airforce can find the "target" debris better than they can find RAAF base Pearce ! http://www.firstpost.com/world/mh370..
250 Post contains images lazybones : Very proud of the way the Australian investigation has been handled, But maybe a tad embarrassing that our kit couldn't find in 5 days what an old Il
251 Post contains links TheCommodore : Luck I guess.... But don't forget, at this stage they have only "spotted" unspecified debris. It has yet to be verified exactly what it is, so it cou
252 Post contains links SA7700 : Due to its length this thread will be locked down for additional contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping
253 lazybones : I'm 90% sold this is wreckage from MH370. The next big question is where is the rest of her? If the French are right, they have found a debris field
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