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Will WN Fly To CVG?  
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 543 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5107 times:

Hi everybody,

WN does not serve CVG at the present time, according to their route map. It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state. They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region? I thought, please forgive my error if I am wrong, that I thought CVG mentioned as a new route in another WN thread. If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one? It seems like this could be good for them because there is one dominate carrier, DL, in the market.

Thank you in advance,

laxboeingman


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSWADawg From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

CVG has not been announced and to my knowledge, there are no current plans to add service there. However, I do think they will eventually fly there at some point in the future. CVG just isn't a big priority with everything that's going on right now and I don't see that changing over the next few years with all the new International flying coming online.


My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 1):

Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state.

Looking at the map, if there is any gap it is in NW Ohio...but I don't see WN going into FDY anytime soon.  
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one?

They aren't.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):
Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?

If people in that area want to go to Florida for warm weather getaways - use Allegiant. WN is going to be more interested, for now, in business markets.


User currently offline175erj From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Doesn't really make sense. They don't serve the southern part of the state?? Well where else in Southern Ohio would they fly to if not CVG. Nowhere... and there are no plans for them to serve CVG. Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 4):
Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.

True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4348 times:

This gets brought up in just about every single CVG thread...so let me recap:

NO!


They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.


User currently offlineTPA0822 From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4311 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (5 months 23 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):
I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.

Saying "better chance" or "possibly" is a lot more accurate than "will".


User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day.

That said, DAY has lost quite a bit of service over the past few years and closed another concourse recently. With the Dayton economy continuing to suffer greatly while Cincy's economy is flourishing - and at the same time continuing to lose those lucrative Cincy pax to CVG, DAY has a lot to lose if WN moves to CVG. Put simply, DAY needs WN more than WN needs DAY.

Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

[Edited 2014-03-24 18:09:53]


Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):
They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.

People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Doesn't make the logic any less sound. CVG now has established LCC service, that's the game-changer and the reason why passenger enplanements at DAY have been in continual decline since August last year while CVG local passenger enplanements have been increasing.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined exactly 2 years ago today! , 1379 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

Neither was CHM, DSM, OMA, ORF, CLE, CAK and many more. Does that mean things are not rosy there? No. DAL has nothing to do with the success of DAY. DAY is doing well .



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 months 19 hours ago) and read 3834 times:

The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL


User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4384 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 months 18 hours ago) and read 3770 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting OOer (Reply 12):
The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL

15 flights a day from the start would be nice but a little on the high side IMO. That schedule would be ideal though for hitting the larger WN stations and large cities. Maybe by next year there will be enough aircraft available to connect some more dots. The 717's leaving the fleet along with -300's and -500's being retired are putting a strain on capacity. I believe some of the retirements have been delayed though and WN is picking up used -700's (I think up to 12 IIRC). They have new -800's coming as well.

The reality is CVG is one of the largest holes in the Southwest map in the lower 48. Southwest Cargo even has a drop point for customers in Erlanger (Very near CVG). " As an extension of the Southwest Airlines® network, we are happy to provide our Cargo Customers with a complimentary Road Feeder Service between the cities below. This service offers Customers a seamless Customer Experience with no extra waiting time and no extra cost."



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 months 16 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

Because DAY and SDF compete with CVG, WN naturally won't move into CVG as it will take away that element....


....as much as CVG people want WN.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.

Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

The fact remains that CVG connecting traffic does not come close to equaling the traffic that other DL hubs do. DL has few non hub routes from CVG compared to the 80s and 90s. Too bad, I liked connecting there whenever possible. Taking the M11 from PDX to CVG was always great J service, far better than the F on a 72S or 757.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:00:59]


AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark."

I don't think that phrase means what you think it does. LOL.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

Sure, but how much has that affected local passengers? Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5049 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently onlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.

Actually, toward the end, FWA-CVG was almost all connections and only one or two O&D pax PDEW. The people who were flying to FWA via CVG were easily rerouted through DTW, ATL, and MSP.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineraddek From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 months 8 hours ago) and read 3428 times:
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Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 18):
I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?




Oh, now....LEX? Now that is an interesting thought for sure. If you have DAY to the north and LEX to the south, then flying right to CVG would not be needed as you have the coverage that you needed to get people to drive. But then again, for the uber business markets like CVG-MDW or CVG- DC area you can't ignore that forever.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 months 8 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):

Once again:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

.
.
.
.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.


There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1552 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 months ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):

There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

And a good bit of that is at least reasonably profitable for DL now*, or otherwise valuable enough for contract or network purposes that they would fight for the turf. I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


*= While I don't have any facts to back this up, IMHO we're at a point where nothing at CVG (for DL at least) can't stand on the merits. With all the cutting they've done, I can't see them running anything out of CVG anymore that doesn't somehow pull it's weight.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3185 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...
 



AA-AC-AQ-AS-BN-BD-CO-CS-DL-EA-EZ-HA-HP-KL-KN-MP-MW-NK-NW-OO-OZ-PA-PS-QX-RC-RH-RW-SA-TG-TW-UA-US-VS-WA-WC-WN
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2942 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 22):
I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


I'm not sure they would really when you consider that traffic would be stimulated with competition. I think routes like CVG-BOS, LGA and BWI/DCA would accommodate both DL and a competitor, but if WN came to CVG, they would probably initially be flying to BWI which doesn't impinge all that much on DL. Throw in the fact that PHX is wide open and DL flies CVG-LAS less-than-daily, I think with a handful of flights WN and DL could coexist fine.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...


I see what you did there  


25 MIflyer12 : I don't see how WN can compete on CVG-CHI for business travelers. AA/DL/UA each have 6-8 runs (even today, a Wednesday) and there's no way the market
26 Surfandsnow : Cincinnati, with almost 2.2 million people in its metropolitan area, is now by far the largest domestic market without WN service (the next largest, G
27 callsigncitrus : Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Let's wait for more planes and see how DAY does with 20-25 flights a day.
28 LHCVG : I don't disagree with any of that - some routes can obviously support competition (especially something like CVG-PHX where they would serve very diff
29 raddek : I agree with Callsigncitrus. There is an open market for a DAY-MDW. You talk about WN being pitted up against the legacies? Those are RJ's with their
30 flyguy89 : I don't think that's completely true. CVG-CHI hasn't really been priced to market for at least 20 years with the exception of Vanguard's brief servic
31 Cubsrule : How so? I fly BNA-LAX a lot. This is a route with two legacies and WN. The passenger mix is basically the same (if anything, I see a few more celebri
32 flyguy89 : I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).
33 raddek : WN should though look at DAY-MDW though. I know CVG-MDW would do very well, but both those routes could co-exist. The short haul flying isn't the bre
34 Cubsrule : Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers. In the past 3 years, I've ta
35 ouboy79 : Pretty much what Cubs is saying. If you think WN remains more oriented towards leisure travelers, you really don't pay much attention or understand t
36 flyguy89 : Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum. Having flown
37 Cubsrule : Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be ni
38 ouboy79 : All economy service really doesn't prove anything. Neither does unassigned seating. Dedication of capacity to leisure markets? I guess that rules out
39 flyguy89 : Because, once again: As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic. No,
40 Cubsrule : I guess I'm a little confused by your point. I suspect DL and AA have more capacity to Florida (both absolute and percentage) than does WN, and AA an
41 flyguy89 : I wouldn't be so sure. In absolute numbers, perhaps; as a percentage of their network capacity, I don't think it's even close. I don't think so. The
42 ouboy79 : Vegas is the 2nd largest station in the system, but its also a pretty strong connecting point as well. PHX same situation - sure people vacation ther
43 flyguy89 : Because WN ops both in Phoenix and Vegas cater more to O&D pax than connecting pax. Sure they use it as a connecting point, but the ratio of conn
44 slcdeltarumd11 : Southwest is the largest airline in terms of domestic travel. They do have a loyal FF base and move alot of business travelers now. I could see them a
45 DXBDFWHGA : I can't believe that I've not flown out of CVG since 1995. This airport use to remind me of GVA when I was a young kid in the mid to late 1970s. I wil
46 raddek : x3 FLL is a little much there don't you think? They would diversify their network a little bit and run more like a 1x RSW, 1x FLL and maybe a 1x TPA.
47 PHX787 : Add PHX. When DL operated CVG-PHX, it was ALWAYS overbooked (it still is during its seasonal flight) Once, it was so overbooked that they had to ask
48 Cubsrule : Both are also pretty large business markets, and WN also gets a ton of O&D on routes like ABQ-PHX (84 percent market share and a higher fare than
49 ouboy79 : Bread and butter on a low fare leisure route? Ehhh. I'll give you that they definitely help, but I would recommend going back and looking at past WN
50 flyguy89 : Let's not go that far, LAS is not an insignificant business market, and PHX is decent, however, living in Vegas and taking many a WN flight from/to L
51 Cubsrule : Of course network airlines are going to carry more HVCs--they generally hub in the largest markets, where WN has hubs in places like Baltimore and Sa
52 LoneStarMike : LAS & PHX opened 01-31-1982. MDW opened 03-17-85. The first Florida stations weren't opened until January of 1996. LoneStarMike
53 flyguy89 : ...and have the broadest networks and FF perks. Oh I'm not surprised at all, I know they do very well on the West Coast, but as I stated before, I ju
54 Cubsrule : Your point seems to be shifting. Are you talking about what sort of passengers WN targets (I note your tailored language) or what sort of passengers
55 PSU.DTW.SCE : WN does carry a significant amount of business travel in select markets where their network, schedule, and route offering is a viable option. No diff
56 Cubsrule : I'm one of those, and about 60 percent of my flights are on WN. WN is worlds ahead of any of the legaices as far as everything you have listed save i
57 PSU.DTW.SCE : Since you are in BNA, I absolutely agree with you there. You have better coverage by WN than really any other carrier being in a near-defacto WN hub.
58 flyguy89 : I don't think it is. Is WN of recent being more aggressive and trying to target business traffic and HVC's? Absolutely. But I don't believe at presen
59 Cubsrule : If you are counting each passenger once, no matter how many flights he flies, that's probably true. But if you count each flight once (so I "count" a
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