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Will WN Fly To CVG?  
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 581 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Hi everybody,

WN does not serve CVG at the present time, according to their route map. It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state. They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region? I thought, please forgive my error if I am wrong, that I thought CVG mentioned as a new route in another WN thread. If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one? It seems like this could be good for them because there is one dominate carrier, DL, in the market.

Thank you in advance,

laxboeingman


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSWADawg From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 167 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

CVG has not been announced and to my knowledge, there are no current plans to add service there. However, I do think they will eventually fly there at some point in the future. CVG just isn't a big priority with everything that's going on right now and I don't see that changing over the next few years with all the new International flying coming online.


My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 1):

Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state.

Looking at the map, if there is any gap it is in NW Ohio...but I don't see WN going into FDY anytime soon.  
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one?

They aren't.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):
Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?

If people in that area want to go to Florida for warm weather getaways - use Allegiant. WN is going to be more interested, for now, in business markets.


User currently offline175erj From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Doesn't really make sense. They don't serve the southern part of the state?? Well where else in Southern Ohio would they fly to if not CVG. Nowhere... and there are no plans for them to serve CVG. Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4744 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 4):
Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.

True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1979 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

This gets brought up in just about every single CVG thread...so let me recap:

NO!


They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.


User currently offlineTPA0822 From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4506 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):
I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.

Saying "better chance" or "possibly" is a lot more accurate than "will".


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3829 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4274 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day.

That said, DAY has lost quite a bit of service over the past few years and closed another concourse recently. With the Dayton economy continuing to suffer greatly while Cincy's economy is flourishing - and at the same time continuing to lose those lucrative Cincy pax to CVG, DAY has a lot to lose if WN moves to CVG. Put simply, DAY needs WN more than WN needs DAY.

Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

[Edited 2014-03-24 18:09:53]


"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4256 times:

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):
They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.

People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Doesn't make the logic any less sound. CVG now has established LCC service, that's the game-changer and the reason why passenger enplanements at DAY have been in continual decline since August last year while CVG local passenger enplanements have been increasing.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4223 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

Neither was CHM, DSM, OMA, ORF, CLE, CAK and many more. Does that mean things are not rosy there? No. DAL has nothing to do with the success of DAY. DAY is doing well .



"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."- HF
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4029 times:

The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL


User currently onlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4433 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3965 times:
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Quoting OOer (Reply 12):
The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL

15 flights a day from the start would be nice but a little on the high side IMO. That schedule would be ideal though for hitting the larger WN stations and large cities. Maybe by next year there will be enough aircraft available to connect some more dots. The 717's leaving the fleet along with -300's and -500's being retired are putting a strain on capacity. I believe some of the retirements have been delayed though and WN is picking up used -700's (I think up to 12 IIRC). They have new -800's coming as well.

The reality is CVG is one of the largest holes in the Southwest map in the lower 48. Southwest Cargo even has a drop point for customers in Erlanger (Very near CVG). " As an extension of the Southwest Airlines® network, we are happy to provide our Cargo Customers with a complimentary Road Feeder Service between the cities below. This service offers Customers a seamless Customer Experience with no extra waiting time and no extra cost."


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (9 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Because DAY and SDF compete with CVG, WN naturally won't move into CVG as it will take away that element....


....as much as CVG people want WN.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3457 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.

Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

The fact remains that CVG connecting traffic does not come close to equaling the traffic that other DL hubs do. DL has few non hub routes from CVG compared to the 80s and 90s. Too bad, I liked connecting there whenever possible. Taking the M11 from PDX to CVG was always great J service, far better than the F on a 72S or 757.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:00:59]


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User currently offlineskycub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark."

I don't think that phrase means what you think it does. LOL.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

Sure, but how much has that affected local passengers? Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5231 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?


The best IFE: A window seat and a good book.
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3829 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.

Actually, toward the end, FWA-CVG was almost all connections and only one or two O&D pax PDEW. The people who were flying to FWA via CVG were easily rerouted through DTW, ATL, and MSP.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineraddek From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3623 times:
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Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 18):
I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?




Oh, now....LEX? Now that is an interesting thought for sure. If you have DAY to the north and LEX to the south, then flying right to CVG would not be needed as you have the coverage that you needed to get people to drive. But then again, for the uber business markets like CVG-MDW or CVG- DC area you can't ignore that forever.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):

Once again:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

.
.
.
.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.


There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3407 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):

There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

And a good bit of that is at least reasonably profitable for DL now*, or otherwise valuable enough for contract or network purposes that they would fight for the turf. I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


*= While I don't have any facts to back this up, IMHO we're at a point where nothing at CVG (for DL at least) can't stand on the merits. With all the cutting they've done, I can't see them running anything out of CVG anymore that doesn't somehow pull it's weight.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3457 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3239 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...
 



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (9 months 11 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 22):
I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


I'm not sure they would really when you consider that traffic would be stimulated with competition. I think routes like CVG-BOS, LGA and BWI/DCA would accommodate both DL and a competitor, but if WN came to CVG, they would probably initially be flying to BWI which doesn't impinge all that much on DL. Throw in the fact that PHX is wide open and DL flies CVG-LAS less-than-daily, I think with a handful of flights WN and DL could coexist fine.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...


I see what you did there  


User currently offlineMIflyer12 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 1236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (9 months 10 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

Quoting raddek (Reply 20):
Oh, now....LEX? Now that is an interesting thought for sure. If you have DAY to the north and LEX to the south, then flying right to CVG would not be needed as you have the coverage that you needed to get people to drive. But then again, for the uber business markets like CVG-MDW or CVG- DC area you can't ignore that forever.

I don't see how WN can compete on CVG-CHI for business travelers. AA/DL/UA each have 6-8 runs (even today, a Wednesday) and there's no way the market could support six WN 737s - it just isn't deep enough.

Sure, WN could do CVG-MDW-xxx, but then it's competing with a lot of DL non-stop destinations CVG-xxx. About half of WN's destinations from MDW (still) have DL non-stops CVG-xxx

CVG fares may be high and look tempting, but the range of destinations served by DL is very good for an MSA of this size (and considering availability of service from airports less than 90 minutes away).


User currently offlineSurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 26, posted (9 months 9 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Cincinnati, with almost 2.2 million people in its metropolitan area, is now by far the largest domestic market without WN service (the next largest, Greensboro/Piedmont Triad, has just over 1.6 million). WN has had a lot on their plate with the FL acquisition, windfall of DCA and LGA slots, and Wright Amendment repeal. It's understandable that they haven't taken on any truly new markets in past few years, however come 2015 they should be back in organic growth mode. Although much of WN's future growth will be international, CVG and for that matter GSO are important business markets and population centers that I expect WN to add sooner or later.

That said, serving CVG would be a challenge from a competitive and geographic standpoint. BWI and Florida would obviously work, but they'd need to provide better connectivity than just that. MDW would face competition from all of the big 3 legacies and may very well be too short of a route for WN these days (seeing as how they didn't even try MDW-DAY), ATL would pit them against a DL hub-hub service (certainly can't see them trying that after the likes of ATL-ORF/SDF flopped). Less competitive WN "hubs" BNA and STL are probably too close to CVG, DAL is gate restricted, HOU isn't served nonstop from nearby SDF or any Ohio markets, DEN now has 3 nonstop carriers, leaving the options of LAS and PHX. A FNT-type operation BWI/Florida/LAS would probably work very well, but that does little for Cincinnati area (or Cincinnati-bound) business travelers. Then again, since most CVG area business pax will still be loyal to DL, maybe a leisure strategy is exactly how WN should break into the market...



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinecallsigncitrus From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (9 months 8 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Let's wait for more planes and see how DAY does with 20-25 flights a day.

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1642 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3050 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
I'm not sure they would really when you consider that traffic would be stimulated with competition. I think routes like CVG-BOS, LGA and BWI/DCA would accommodate both DL and a competitor, but if WN came to CVG, they would probably initially be flying to BWI which doesn't impinge all that much on DL. Throw in the fact that PHX is wide open and DL flies CVG-LAS less-than-daily, I think with a handful of flights WN and DL could coexist fine.

I don't disagree with any of that - some routes can obviously support competition (especially something like CVG-PHX where they would serve very different purposes for each airline), and others wouldn't concern DL that much. My point is just to note that this is going to be a fluid relationship between the two. WN won't just come in with flights and do their thing, and likewise they won't stand by and let DL run them off of something entirely without a fight (otherwise why bother with the market as a large player now).

I do think WN is certainly in a much better position to contest for some turf at CVG than the previous entrants have been, which is part of why I think they are very likely to make a go of it. It just won't be an easy jump immediately up to say 15-20 flights a day.


User currently offlineraddek From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3036 times:
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Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
MDW would face competition from all of the big 3 legacies and may very well be too short of a route for WN these days (seeing as how they didn't even try MDW-DAY),



I agree with Callsigncitrus. There is an open market for a DAY-MDW. You talk about WN being pitted up against the legacies? Those are RJ's with their name painted on them. That's it. They don't treat those flight nearly as well as they should to the consumer as they do with their mainline flights. UA and AA are a joke out of DAY with their sky high fares and tiny cramped planes. Bring in some mainline with good connection opportunities in DAY and the passengers in the market will fly. WN won't be able to compete on frequency, but they can make up for it easily in price and the side by side quality of what you get out of DAY.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 30, posted (9 months 5 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
I don't see how WN can compete on CVG-CHI for business travelers.

I don't think that's completely true. CVG-CHI hasn't really been priced to market for at least 20 years with the exception of Vanguard's brief service, I could definitely see WN carving out a 2-3 daily flight niche just by offering a decently affordable option for local travelers destinating in Chicago. That said, WN doesn't seem to be doing too hot on routes of similar stage length such as SDF-MDW.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
CVG fares may be high and look tempting, but the range of destinations served by DL is very good for an MSA of this size (and considering availability of service from airports less than 90 minutes away).

Very true, there's still room for competition however.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
A FNT-type operation BWI/Florida/LAS would probably work very well

And that's what I think will ultimately happen unless DL decides to pull down the rest of the hub. No large focus city or hub, rather a handful of leisure-oriented routes where WN would have the upper (or at least equal) hand, i.e. BWI, LAS, PHX, Florida.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
but that does little for Cincinnati area (or Cincinnati-bound) business travelers.

I'm not sure it really has to though, the Cincinnati business community remains well-served with DL hub. I realize they're trying chase after more business travelers nowadays, however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

Quoting callsigncitrus (Reply 27):
Let's wait for more planes and see how DAY does with 20-25 flights a day.

DAY at 20-25 flights? Why don't we wait until WN can solidly remain above 5 flights per day at DAY before we talk about 20-25.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 28):
It just won't be an easy jump immediately up to say 15-20 flights a day.

Agree completely.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 31, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

How so? I fly BNA-LAX a lot. This is a route with two legacies and WN. The passenger mix is basically the same (if anything, I see a few more celebrities on WN than on DL or AA).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

How so?

I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).


User currently offlineraddek From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2690 times:
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Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):

I don't think that's completely true. CVG-CHI hasn't really been priced to market for at least 20 years with the exception of Vanguard's brief service, I could definitely see WN carving out a 2-3 daily flight niche just by offering a decently affordable option for local travelers destinating in Chicago. That said, WN doesn't seem to be doing too hot on routes of similar stage length such as SDF-MDW.



WN should though look at DAY-MDW though. I know CVG-MDW would do very well, but both those routes could co-exist. The short haul flying isn't the bread and butter it used to be for WN. But the short hauls are low risk because they don't tie up an aircraft line for 3 or 4 hours just of flight time.

TIme will tell though on what WN will do. None of this will happen till at least 2015 or 2016 when there begins to be some slack in the sysytem with aircraft.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 34, posted (8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 32):
I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).

Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers. In the past 3 years, I've taken business trips to LAS, SAN, PHX, MSY, TPA, etc.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 35, posted (8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
I realize they're trying chase after more business travelers nowadays, however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 32):
I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers. In the past 3 years, I've taken business trips to LAS, SAN, PHX, MSY, TPA, etc.

Pretty much what Cubs is saying. If you think WN remains more oriented towards leisure travelers, you really don't pay much attention or understand the WN business model. Yes they have the typical leisure markets, but you really should look at the operation in CA, TX, and elsewhere on just how many business pax use the airline.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 36, posted (8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers.

Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 35):
If you think WN remains more oriented towards leisure travelers, you really don't pay much attention or understand the WN business model.

Having flown WN intra-California a number of times, I'm quite aware of their popularity among business travelers on those routes and their efforts to capture a greater portion of higher-yielding traffic. However, their commitment to all-economy service, unassigned seating and dedication of capacity to leisure markets doesn't push them over towards the "business" end of the spectrum in my view.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 37, posted (8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 38, posted (8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
However, their commitment to all-economy service, unassigned seating and dedication of capacity to leisure markets doesn't push them over towards the "business" end of the spectrum in my view.

All economy service really doesn't prove anything. Neither does unassigned seating. Dedication of capacity to leisure markets? I guess that rules out any airline then having a business pax focus if they are flying to Mickey's home.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.

Don't forget very favorable ticket change rules in addition to many others. We all know grandma and grandpa are making their decision to fly to RSW once a year because of that.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 39, posted (8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.

Because, once again:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
Dedication of capacity to leisure markets? I guess that rules out any airline then having a business pax focus if they are flying to Mickey's home.

No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
We all know grandma and grandpa are making their decision to fly to RSW once a year because of that.

Really don't understand why you're acting so offended by the notion. I like WN and think they have a great product, however they're an LCC (or at least still market themselves as such) with their product and network more conducive to leisure than business pax...not to say they aren't a great option for many business pax however.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 40, posted (8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2302 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

I guess I'm a little confused by your point. I suspect DL and AA have more capacity to Florida (both absolute and percentage) than does WN, and AA and DL both have a lot more capacity (both absolute and percentage) to the Caribbean than does WN.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 41, posted (8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
I suspect DL and AA have more capacity to Florida (both absolute and percentage) than does WN

I wouldn't be so sure. In absolute numbers, perhaps; as a percentage of their network capacity, I don't think it's even close.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

I don't think so. The bulk of their business is still underpinned by value seekers heading to sun or vacation destinations, they're obviously trying to diversify, but I don't think it would yet be a fair characterization to call them a more business travel oriented airline.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 42, posted (8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

Vegas is the 2nd largest station in the system, but its also a pretty strong connecting point as well. PHX same situation - sure people vacation there, but it is also a good connecting market. MCO is the only other leisure city that is in the top 10 at number 9. So I'm not seeing where the greatest percentage of WN's network is focused on getting people to vacation destinations. Granted I vacation in Chicago and Seattle quite often - but would those classify as leisure markets?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
Really don't understand why you're acting so offended by the notion. I like WN and think they have a great product, however they're an LCC (or at least still market themselves as such) with their product and network more conducive to leisure than business pax...not to say they aren't a great option for many business pax however.

Not offended, just trying to make it clear your assumption of WN's network is pretty biased and not completely accurate. This was an airline with roots starting a business airline. Yes leisure markets have been added since the days of the running DAL-SAT-HOU around and around, but everything from fare policies to the frequent flyer programs are aimed at business pax.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
I don't think so. The bulk of their business is still underpinned by value seekers heading to sun or vacation destinations, they're obviously trying to diversify, but I don't think it would yet be a fair characterization to call them a more business travel oriented airline.

Would you say the same about JetBlue? Alaska? Virgin America?


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
So I'm not seeing where the greatest percentage of WN's network is focused on getting people to vacation destinations.

Because WN ops both in Phoenix and Vegas cater more to O&D pax than connecting pax. Sure they use it as a connecting point, but the ratio of connecting pax to O&D pax is overwhelmingly skewed toward O&D...and both are major leisure markets.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
Yes leisure markets have been added since the days of the running DAL-SAT-HOU around and around

Not just added, they became their bread and butter routes, their largest stations grew from high-traffic leisure markets.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
but everything from fare policies to the frequent flyer programs are aimed at business pax.

This was also an airline, until just a few years ago that is, who's closest destination to the New York City area was ISP...and made a concerted effort to avoid the main metro airports frequented by higher-yield clientele. Certainly WN has adjusted their strategy to offer products, markets and frequency to appeal more to business travelers, I however don't believe it would be correct to characterize WN as more business travel than leisure oriented at this point. This isn't to say it won't change, I just don't think they're there yet.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
Would you say the same about JetBlue? Alaska? Virgin America?

JetBlue? Yes, although they've made some aggressive, tangible steps to re-position themselves with the introduction of 'Mint'.
Alaska? No. First Class, lounges for frequent fliers and agreements with global carriers to transport passengers beyond Hawaii and Mexico/Caribbean I think demonstrates they're more aggressive about positioning themselves more towards business than leisure travel.
Virgin America? No...I mean, they're struggling, but similar to Alaska, with first class, premium economy, lounges and international agreements, they're definitely gunning hard for the high-yield biz traffic.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Southwest is the largest airline in terms of domestic travel. They do have a loyal FF base and move alot of business travelers now. I could see them adding CVG in a minimal service to serve the city. I feel they might need to serve CVG for the purpose of network. Something that would be a crazy idea talking about Southwest 5 years ago.

Maybe a truly minimum service schedule to some shorter distance cities to hit some opportunities and to offer service. 1x LAS, 1x MCO, 3xBWI, 3xMDW, 2x ATL maybe something like. CVG is still a pretty large city and has a god amount of business traffic, might be need to be a dot to connect on the network.


User currently offlineDXBDFWHGA From United States of America, joined Dec 2013, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

I can't believe that I've not flown out of CVG since 1995. This airport use to remind me of GVA when I was a young kid in the mid to late 1970s. I will not be surprise to see WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X


User currently offlineraddek From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2009 times:
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Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

x3 FLL is a little much there don't you think? They would diversify their network a little bit and run more like a 1x RSW, 1x FLL and maybe a 1x TPA. There wouldn't be 3x FLL. That does not make any sense. You need to have some other Florida markets as well.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 47, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

Add PHX.

When DL operated CVG-PHX, it was ALWAYS overbooked (it still is during its seasonal flight)

Once, it was so overbooked that they had to ask for TEN volunteers to give up their place.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 48, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Because WN ops both in Phoenix and Vegas cater more to O&D pax than connecting pax. Sure they use it as a connecting point, but the ratio of connecting pax to O&D pax is overwhelmingly skewed toward O&D...and both are major leisure markets.

Both are also pretty large business markets, and WN also gets a ton of O&D on routes like ABQ-PHX (84 percent market share and a higher fare than US in the last quarter with data), which I have a hard time describing as a "leisure market." What data support your assertion?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4616 posts, RR: 23
Reply 49, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Not just added, they became their bread and butter routes, their largest stations grew from high-traffic leisure markets.

Bread and butter on a low fare leisure route? Ehhh. I'll give you that they definitely help, but I would recommend going back and looking at past WN route maps. Until the 73Gs started showing up in larger numbers, and really it is still the case today, the network is built on point to point markets. They don't keep markets that don't perform well on an O&D basis.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
This was also an airline, until just a few years ago that is, who's closest destination to the New York City area was ISP...and made a concerted effort to avoid the main metro airports frequented by higher-yield clientele.

So LAX isn't a main metro airport? SFO? PHX? SAT? I would also argue that MDW and DAL are still preferred for business travelers wanting to get downtown faster. The only main metro airports they avoided were the congested messes in the Northeast. These weren't favorable for the way WN's network worked. We've seen OT performance take a hit since going into these airports (mind you I'm not blaming the recent OT issues on these airports at all).

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Alaska? No. First Class, lounges for frequent fliers and agreements with global carriers to transport passengers beyond Hawaii and Mexico/Caribbean I think demonstrates they're more aggressive about positioning themselves more towards business than leisure travel.
Virgin America? No...I mean, they're struggling, but similar to Alaska, with first class, premium economy, lounges and international agreements, they're definitely gunning hard for the high-yield biz traffic.

So in order to be focused on a business traveler you need first class and airport lounges? I would guess that Companion Pass WN frequent flyers can qualify for is far more valuable to them then a bigger seat or a room they'll sit in for a short time.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 44):
Maybe a truly minimum service schedule to some shorter distance cities to hit some opportunities and to offer service. 1x LAS, 1x MCO, 3xBWI, 3xMDW, 2x ATL maybe something like. CVG is still a pretty large city and has a god amount of business traffic, might be need to be a dot to connect on the network.
Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
I can't believe that I've not flown out of CVG since 1995. This airport use to remind me of GVA when I was a young kid in the mid to late 1970s. I will not be surprise to see WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

I can see CVG being an option in 5 years or so. The focus for the next couple of years is going to be near international expansion. If/when it happens I doubt it'll be as aggressive as what you two are suggesting. MDW isn't a guarantee, but perhaps. Maybe 2x MDW, 2x BWI, 2x ATL, 1x HOU, and 1x LAS. I don't think they'll bother with Florida traffic initially unless they close DAY.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Both are also pretty large business markets, and WN also gets a ton of O&D on routes like ABQ-PHX (84 percent market share and a higher fare than US in the last quarter with data), which I have a hard time describing as a "leisure market." What data support your assertion?

I think it is just further evidence that some people haven't taken the time to really dive in to understand the WN operation.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 50, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Both are also pretty large business markets,


Let's not go that far, LAS is not an insignificant business market, and PHX is decent, however, living in Vegas and taking many a WN flight from/to LAS and PHX, most of the volume is leisure traffic.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
I'll give you that they definitely help, but I would recommend going back and looking at past WN route maps.


I have, really just reinforces my point that post-deregulation, in addition to intra-California, the markets that rose to prominence in the WN network first were Las Vegas, Phoenix and Florida.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
So LAX isn't a main metro airport?


And MHT is just as good as BOS?

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
SFO?


Yet where did their main and largest base of operations in the Bay Area develop? OAK, not SFO.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
PHX? SAT?


There were no alternates available.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
These weren't favorable for the way WN's network worked.


Agreed, so was serving markets mainly for network purposes. The corporate traveler was not who they were trying to market themselves to, so it didn't matter that they didn't serve Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, DC.


Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
I would also argue that MDW and DAL are still preferred for business travelers wanting to get downtown faster.


MDW? If that were patently true, MDW should look more like LGA. I don't think MDW hurts WN though as far as convenience or traveler preference goes. That said, MDW as a large WN station is relatively newer and came after LAS, PHX and Florida.
DAL? I think we'll need to wait until the Wright Amendment is gone to see whether that bears out, you can't get far nonstop from DAL at the moment.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 49):
I would guess that Companion Pass WN frequent flyers can qualify for is far more valuable to them then a bigger seat or a room they'll sit in for a short time.


To you perhaps, but the volume of HVC's that the network airlines carry would suggest otherwise.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 51, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 50):
To you perhaps, but the volume of HVC's that the network airlines carry would suggest otherwise.

Of course network airlines are going to carry more HVCs--they generally hub in the largest markets, where WN has hubs in places like Baltimore and Saint Louis. But if you look at the places where critical mass doesn't drive choice, I think you'd be surprised at how well WN does. Heck, in Dallas, WN enjoys a higher market share than AA in each of the 15 nonstop markets in which they compete and enjoys higher fares in 12 of the 15 (Q313 data). Are those leisure passengers filling up the airplanes to El Paso and Little Rock?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3867 posts, RR: 34
Reply 52, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1406 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 50):
That said, MDW as a large WN station is relatively newer and came after LAS, PHX and Florida.

LAS & PHX opened 01-31-1982. MDW opened 03-17-85. The first Florida stations weren't opened until January of 1996.

LoneStarMike


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1360 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 51):
Of course network airlines are going to carry more HVCs--they generally hub in the largest markets

...and have the broadest networks and FF perks.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 51):
But if you look at the places where critical mass doesn't drive choice, I think you'd be surprised at how well WN does.

Oh I'm not surprised at all, I know they do very well on the West Coast, but as I stated before, I just don't believe at present it would be correct to characterize WN's overall operation as more tailored to business travelers than leisure travelers. I'm not speaking categorically though, but more from a sliding scale point of view.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 52):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 50):
That said, MDW as a large WN station is relatively newer and came after LAS, PHX and Florida.

LAS & PHX opened 01-31-1982. MDW opened 03-17-85. The first Florida stations weren't opened until January of 1996.

I was speaking of MDW as a "large" WN station. It's been in the network since '85, but remained pretty small and limited in comparison to their LAS, PHX and Florida stations until the late 90's.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1220 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
I just don't believe at present it would be correct to characterize WN's overall operation as more tailored to business travelers than leisure travelers.

Your point seems to be shifting. Are you talking about what sort of passengers WN targets (I note your tailored language) or what sort of passengers WN actually carries?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 55, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
Oh I'm not surprised at all, I know they do very well on the West Coast, but as I stated before, I just don't believe at present it would be correct to characterize WN's overall operation as more tailored to business travelers than leisure travelers. I'm not speaking categorically though, but more from a sliding scale point of view.

WN does carry a significant amount of business travel in select markets where their network, schedule, and route offering is a viable option. No different than network carriers in certain markets.

Not all "business travelers" are the same though. There are many people who may only fly 1-4 business trips a year. They could be training/conferences/trade shows, etc for trips that booked well in advanced. WN is very good for this type of travel, and domestic travel at that. Particularly if they are in a city that has a sizable WN presense.

On the other hand the high-frequency road warrior business travelers, the ones that are traveling 2-4 trips per month are in a whole different class. These are the types that can and will earn top-tier status, have complex travel plans, international, and many close-in bookings, flight changes. These "HVCs" generally are more apt to align with a network carrier. The WN model does not align with many of their travel needs.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1184 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 55):
hese are the types that can and will earn top-tier status, have complex travel plans, international, and many close-in bookings, flight changes. These "HVCs" generally are more apt to align with a network carrier. The WN model does not align with many of their travel needs.

I'm one of those, and about 60 percent of my flights are on WN. WN is worlds ahead of any of the legaices as far as everything you have listed save international. With a confirmed WN ticket, no matter how close in I buy, I am virtually guaranteed not to have a middle seat in the back, which isn't true on any legacy. Moreover, WN is the easiest of the "Big 5" on which to change and cancel flights (DL often requires a phone call close in for a cancellation, even if you have status).

Obviously, when I go to Japan or Germany, I'm not flying WN, but there are a lot of folks who fly every week or nearly every week who don't do much international travel.

Now, if I didn't live in a WN hublet, the amount I flew WN would be much different, but that's true of just about every carrier; there aren't too many UA loyalists who live in Atlanta or DL loyalists who live in Denver. The idea that WN's product is somehow "bad" for business travelers defies logic. Would I prefer an F cabin? Of course, but getting to sleep in my own bed--something I wouldn't get to do as much if I stuck to some legacy--is far more important.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Since you are in BNA, I absolutely agree with you there. You have better coverage by WN than really any other carrier being in a near-defacto WN hub.

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2006 posts, RR: 21
Reply 58, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1014 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 54):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 53):
I just don't believe at present it would be correct to characterize WN's overall operation as more tailored to business travelers than leisure travelers.

Your point seems to be shifting. Are you talking about what sort of passengers WN targets (I note your tailored language) or what sort of passengers WN actually carries?

I don't think it is. Is WN of recent being more aggressive and trying to target business traffic and HVC's? Absolutely. But I don't believe at present traditional HVC's and business travelers make up the majority of their clientele.

On a different note, I was pleased that G4 went year-round on their CVG-PIE route, I'm curious as to what affect this might have on WN's Florida operation at DAY...certainly can't be a positive. While G4's service is only twice-weekly, I don't believe even DAY-TPA is year-round.

[Edited 2014-03-31 19:22:40]

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23302 posts, RR: 20
Reply 59, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1012 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 58):
But I don't believe at present traditional HVC's and business travelers make up the majority of their clientele.

If you are counting each passenger once, no matter how many flights he flies, that's probably true. But if you count each flight once (so I "count" as 60 passengers for my ~60 WN segments last year), I'm not so sure.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
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