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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53497 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 44 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 45:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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290 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2494 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53359 times:

Re: Blueshamu330s

Quote:
It is not hush money.

It is a subsistence payment to assist grieving relatives with immediate costs.

The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

Malaysian would be foolish to preempt the legal process.

Post the contract then. $5,000 USD is insulting. It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it. Five thousand for what? Going to get coffee and a meal while I wait for your sloth-like information dissemination about my deceased loved one?

You want to do something nice, then pay costs per diem or per remittance. Don't come up with an arbitrary (LOW) figure.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineliquidair From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53187 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):

from what i understand it's the initial money thats being paid purely for expenses involved with being holed up in a hotel, and for travelling to Australia....

i don't think this payment has anything to do with the long term compensation.

in other news, the BBC reports that the Chinese protests against the Malaysian embassy, there's a spreading feeling amongst the victims' families that the Malaysians are lying and the plane has actually landed with a good chance the people are alive.

Whether that's true or not, i think we have to recognise that making an announcement in the way they did, based on algorithmic proof rather than solid evidence, was an incredibly ill thought out procedure.

I've been on the Malaysians' side until now- but this last part has been botched horribly.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53050 times:

Pelegrine, it's an initial payment to help. I presume it to be made with no admission of liability - at the moment nobody knows what happened so nobody is going to volunteer to accept liability. Whatever payment is eventually awarded to the victims' family members is not at issue.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:13:16]

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:15:29]

User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53055 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
Post the contract then.

Show us your evidence that this is "hush money" then. "Put up or shut up" I think is the expression here.
Don't go spouting crap and expect others to prove evidence of their point of view.

Show us undeniable, factual (That means a link or two from reputable sources), proof this money is a bribe to shut people up.

For now, without any further evidence or information to the contrary, I'm inclined to agree this $5000 is designed to meet immediate costs only and is a simple gesture of good will.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineJimJupiter From Germany, joined Sep 2011, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 53021 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it.

You realize they haven't even found those bodies, right?  

Seems the Malaysians can do whatever they want - people will find a way to turn it against them. Sigh.



One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17172 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 52910 times:

Quoting liquidair (Reply 2):
Whether that's true or not, i think we have to recognise that making an announcement in the way they did, based on algorithmic proof rather than solid evidence, was an incredibly ill thought out procedure.

How is this algorithmic proof not solid evidence? Much as it may be hard for the relatives to understand, physics does not lie.

Furthermore, the Malaysian authorities may have announced this, but it is Inmarsat that has talked about the results.


Unless of course someone thinks it is all a coverup. The problem is that you can't change the mind of the dedicated conspiracy theoriest. He will find ways to ignore or twist any facts that do not fit his view. You could show himwreckage and they would say it was fake.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):

Quote:
It is not hush money.

It is a subsistence payment to assist grieving relatives with immediate costs.

The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

Malaysian would be foolish to preempt the legal process.

Post the contract then.

Numerous press reports state that Malaysia Airlines says this is just a first payment. Where is your evidence that it is hush money beyond your opinion that it is? The burden of proof is on you at this point.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:20:43]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDalavia From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 52830 times:

AMSA has published its report on search operations for 25th March.

The link is http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documen...diaRelease_Update17_MH370DRAFT.pdf

I couldn't find anything especially newsworthy; not surprisingly as bad weather stopped today's aerial searches.


User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 52615 times:

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 5):

Seems the Malaysians can do whatever they want - people will find a way to turn it against them. Sigh.

Indeed.

What some are describing and bungling, spreading misinformation, etc, I see as a group of people caught in the spotlight of a relentless world wide media with reporters hounding the families, goading them on to pressure the authorities for information.
Information gets leaked out by the media which people immediately believe is true. Then these poor chaps in front of the camera have to try and explain fact from supposition to a baying crowd.
Yes it's true they've faltered along the way, but I can understand it when I take into consideration the unbelievable amount of attention and pressure these people have under. I doubt they have been under such strain before. I really feel sorry for them.

As for the SAR operations. I really cannot see what more could have been or still can be done. They all did the best they could with the information at hand.

At this point I think the families, distraught as they are, are really being unreasonable. I have to wonder if they are being goaded on by the media? I've seen it before. A peaceful crowd getting riled up by the actions of one or two reporters stirring up trouble with probing questions based on opinion or lies.

Nothing sells in the media more than drama and sensation. Whip up the crowd of relatives into a frenzy and you can film them and sell papers, sound and video bytes.



arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineliquidair From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 52526 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):

sorry, I've not explained myself properly- i was talking about the fashion in which this was done- whether it is correct or not.

Of course, I'm positive the AAIB and Inmarsat wouldn't release this info unless they were convinced... But to then announce it the way they did was damaging IMO.

The backlash we're seeing now is the consequence... Far better to announce that, based on the calculations of Inmarsat, it is believed the plane was definitely over the south indian ocean at a time when it less than 1 hour's fuel, and was more than 4 hours' flight from land (i say 4, i have no idea the real flying time).

Besides which, not being pedantic or facetious, but (unlikely though it is), how many times have things been retracted in the past due to erroneous data/calculations/processing? Remember the faster than speed of light debacle involving CERN and Gran Sasso a couple years back?

I'm just saying - as a relative of a missing person, unless i was given a completely undeniable fact, rather than a calculation, i too would be irked by the manner and definitive nature of that statement.

edit- when referring to solid, i meant plane parts, bodies... Tangible physical evidence.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:38:45]

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:40:23]

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 52493 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

I think under the Montreal Convention it is fixed at 100,000 SDR’s (the artificial IMF currency unit), I think it is limited to USD$150,000 per passenger and USD$1500 for checked luggage.

Most ICAO states generally have a requirement as part of the air operators certificate that the airline must have carriers liability insurance to cover such events. Personal travel insurance also tends to have additional coverage.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinemonjonman From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 51795 times:

Quoting art (Reply 3):

How long do you wait for the solid evidence to appear?Another month ?six months? and what if they never find any evidence of the aircraft ever being in that area?
Unfortunately this still may be the case if the weather limits the search for any debri or the black box before the batteries run flat.
It's difficult to imagine what you would feel knowing that you may never know why someone you loved perished, but I think the families of the lost need to be realistic about the evidence to hand ,which all points to it going down where they are searching.
I do not believe for one second that there is any cover up ,conspiracy,ill motives by the Malaysian government but they just lack the necessary communication skills and that can happen quite easily whenever you have
multiple cultures with a vested interest, trying to translate what is being said or the way it is being said.
The officials would only be making these statements if they were positive (after serious scrutiny by experts in the field) that this has happened to the aircraft and would of course not be make them lightly.
To give weight to any other theory (other than the southern corridor ) at this stage of the search is nothing more than a distraction and ignoring valid verifiable evidence provided by numerous countries.
Condolences to anyone who may read this post now or in the future that may have known someone on board .
I can only hope you are able to have some closure to this terrible terrible tragedy in the near future.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 13110 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 51707 times:

One of the objects has been identified as a whale carcass.

http://twitter.com/PDChina/status/448080809023389696/photo/1



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 51657 times:

I have a simple question to ask everyone. Given what we know right now, would it be possible for the pilot or someone who is in control of MH370, after their last contact, to have a conversation with known Malaysian authority and that conversation cannot be intercepted by any other sources?
There is a theory, which I do not believe or comment, that there was a on-going negotiation with the government of Malaysia over the release of Anwar, the opposition leader, while taking the passengers on board as hostage, and as time tickle away, the negotiation failed and the plane perished on the Indian ocean. If indeed this is possible, couldn't the CIA or any other country with capability to tape or listen to such conversation over the radio?

Just a personal question to ask. Nothing else.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 51369 times:

Quoting monjonman (Reply 11):
How long do you wait for the solid evidence to appear?Another month ?six months? and what if they never find any evidence of the aircraft ever being in that area?.

How long to find the CVR and FDR? I think it took 2 years to search less than 10,000sq km to find the AF black boxes. I believe the Malaysian transport minister has just stated that the search area for debris has been reduced from several million square nautical miles to more like 400.000 sq nm. That would be perhaps 100 times the size of the AF447 undersea search area,. Employing the same search assets it might take several hundred years to locate the MH370 black boxes.

Quoting monjonman (Reply 11):
Unfortunately this still may be the case if the weather limits the search for any debri or the black box before the batteries run flat.

Even if MH370 debris were found now the prospects of finding the black boxes before their beacon signals cease is virtually nil. Assuming that a ship would need to be within 4,000 metres of the beacon to detect it. that ship could steam right over the beacon and still fail to detect it in water of 4,000m depth.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:25:30]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13744 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50914 times:
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Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
Post the contract then. $5,000 USD is insulting. It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it. Five thousand for what? Going to get coffee and a meal while I wait for your sloth-like information dissemination about my deceased loved one?

Settle down; while MH has conducted themselves in a ham-handed manner from the start, it sounds as if they're trying to emulate what U.S. carriers' CARE teams (mandated by law) do, and part of that is immediately cutting each family a check (although in the U.S. it's $25K) in addition to providing for their immediate needs while at or on their way to/from the crash site or command center. It's not a legal settlement nor is it considered compensation; it's merely a small goodwill gesture at the start of a very long, painful process.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5120 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50780 times:

I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something, and I can't blame the families for being outraged. As far as Malaysia Airlines is concerned, I think the damage done will bring this airline to its knees. The incompetence shown by the government and airline is second to none. I suspect that something in that cargo is playing a role into why this plane has vanished. The families deserve more than what they have been told.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50518 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):

I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something

No, they aren't hiding anything. Cargo manifest is none of our business, investigators certainly have access to it.

I can't imagine how cargo could possibly play any part in this.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineliquidair From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50431 times:

Quoting art (Reply 14):
Even if MH370 debris were found now the prospects of finding the black boxes before their beacon signals cease is virtually nil. Assuming that a ship would need to be within 4,000 metres of the beacon to detect it. that ship could steam right over the beacon and still fail to detect it in water of 4,000m depth.

don't they drag sensors stuck on cables?

as for the debris...

We've seen it once in the thread before and it'll spread- even if they find some debris, until this is solved there will be people making ludicrous accusations that the debris and investigation is staged, planted.

i fear, in the long term, unlike AF447(from which there is no equivocal interpretation) this is always going to be a conspiracy theorist's ideal candidate.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:49:48]

just read this on bbc rolling updates....

Some more details from the media briefing by Malaysia's acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein. He says there was "evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 00:19 UTC".


can anyone shed light on what a partial handshake might mean?


[Edited 2014-03-25 03:58:26]

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50344 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest!

I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

I see little harm in the Notice to Captain (NOTOC) being released, as they just outlines what position and quantity in the hold it had various known dangerous goods without listing the sender, receiver, and shipping agent.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50334 times:

Hasn't the cargo been quoted as being mainly mangusteens?


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineskopsko From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50201 times:

Is it true that the pilot's wife and children disappeared a day before the flight? This was posted somewhere but I was wondering if this was ever confirmed as 100% true. I also never saw the news trying to talk to his wife, which would have made sense, given that he is a suspect.

User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 50040 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

Such information could be redacted with privacy in mind. Only the physical cargo needs to be listed, and if they want to hide something they could redact that too.


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4670 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 49954 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest!

I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

I agree. Don't feed the trolls

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 22):
Such information could be redacted with privacy in mind. Only the physical cargo needs to be listed, and if they want to hide something they could redact that too.

...so that they can - again - be accused of withholding information ?
  

[Edited 2014-03-25 04:04:15]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9543 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 49781 times:

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
What some are describing and bungling, spreading misinformation, etc, I see as a group of people caught in the spotlight of a relentless world wide media with reporters hounding the families, goading them on to pressure the authorities for information.
Information gets leaked out by the media which people immediately believe is true. Then these poor chaps in front of the camera have to try and explain fact from supposition to a baying crowd.
Yes it's true they've faltered along the way, but I can understand it when I take into consideration the unbelievable amount of attention and pressure these people have under. I doubt they have been under such strain before. I really feel sorry for them.

   Not to mention that it is a very unusual set of circumstances.

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
As for the SAR operations. I really cannot see what more could have been or still can be done. They all did the best they could with the information at hand.

Indeed. Simply expecting them to "have better information" doesn't really help.


Quoting liquidair (Reply 9):
Besides which, not being pedantic or facetious, but (unlikely though it is), how many times have things been retracted in the past due to erroneous data/calculations/processing? Remember the faster than speed of light debacle involving CERN and Gran Sasso a couple years back?

Even that was badly reported. They didn't say the neutrinos had travelled faster than light. They said their data showed they'd travelled faster than light and invited others to try to see where they might have made a mistake.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something

Why not give the investigators a chance to investigate? Their job is to determine probable cause(s). Until they release an accident report it's not their job to provide ammunition to the public for yet more speculation. Don't forget that the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR and others are also involved.


25 Post contains images JimJupiter : He es also missing. The investigators should speak to her and probably already have. The news media? Please no! It's bad enough already to see pictur
26 DTW2HYD : Granted MH/Malaysia botched this investigation every possible way, but it is still an "active" investigation. No agency will release "evidence" to pu
27 pvjin : Noticed this MH CEO interview on BBC channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilf3we0Fbz4 I don't think they really know more than they have already r
28 liquidair : yes, absolutely- and it's that sort of transparency and spirit that i think was slightly lacking in the statement last night. I'm not questioning the
29 LandSweetLand : It's unlikely she could help at this stage anyway, even if he did do it, and told her he was going to do it, it's highly unlikely that she would know
30 GZed : I believe that the information we have so far strongly points towards there being no problem with aircraft. The initial turn back and decent is consis
31 Post contains links and images flood : David KM of flightglobal via twitter: "Investigators' analysis of frequency change from #MH370, showing better fit with southern zone than northern."
32 Post contains links and images Pihero : Quoting FlyingTurtle, thread 44, # 206 :I must admit that I read the AF447 final report on a long railway journey. It kept my mind busy for hours. I w
33 GZed : Warning - Pure speculation from this point on: The hijacker/s were well educated in what systems to force the pilots to turn off, and may have convinc
34 zeke : A very simple question for people who know 777s..... Could a split beverage on the centre console take out the FMC/TCAS/Radio and cause smoke in the c
35 damirc : I don't believe it was pax initiated. Still believe the reason for the disappearance lies on the flight deck. I find it hard to imagine that within 1
36 anfromme : That's exactly why you would make an announcement like they did yesterday. Because that's a false hope. There are many planes that crashed without an
37 Post contains images Gonzalo : I'm very very far away from being someone "who knows the 777s", but having in mind incidents of the past where flight crew has spilled liquids over t
38 Post contains images David L : "Botched", in "every possible way"? Really?
39 Post contains images JimJupiter : Sure. There have been so many investigations of this kind in the past few years, that we can easily compare and see which nation did best and who did
40 Post contains images anfromme : Well, there are consipracy theorists who still claim it was a cover-up, the wreckage was planted, as were the CVR and FDR... I fully agree with your
41 na : I read they haven´t questioned her until sunday. Which I find very odd in the light of possible scenarios. Respect for relatives seems to be regarde
42 COOEE : Helios flight 522.. ( I called it on day 3 ) just google it.. No fire, just scale it up to a 777 Why is everyone promoting hijacking or suicide, just
43 Post contains links SRT75 : Certain news reports put back into play this morning the possibility of cabin depressurization/on-board fire or toxic. An example: http://www.asianews
44 garpd : You again?! No. Just no. The reasons why this theory falls down are plentiful and discussed to death. Move on already.
45 David L : And the transponder? The sign-off doesn't seem to be regarded as unusual by other pilots.
46 Post contains links and images Voodoo : Just occured to me, that if they had made the last major left turn (~ 90 degree change) at the previous point where a right turn was made ....they wou
47 checksixx : Whoa!! This car is coming to a screeching halt! We DO NOT know the aircraft crashed anywhere. There is no evidence of that yet. The Inmarsat data eve
48 Post contains links and images nupogodi : I also like this image: It describes well where they were getting the doppler info from - by combining the inclination the satellite with a potential
49 nupogodi : We do. It has. The aircraft crashed into the ocean. There is nowhere for it to have landed. Even a perfect ditching would mean everyone has perished
50 francoflier : The big difference between this and the Helios scenario is that the 777 has a system which alerts you when the cabin altitude exceeds 10.000 ft. It i
51 Finn350 : The problem is that the depressurization scenario you describe does not explain why the transponder and especially the ACARS communications (but not
52 Post contains links zeke : Not sure what you call "without any major consequence", I would call a fire in the cockpit significant. This happened in a 737, a lot less electric t
53 COOEE : Yes I see, no discussion on the possibility - I give up you win. you all want something dramatic and easily solved. This one will take years - there w
54 David L : But's not all that was released. The Inmarsat data points to an area in the southern Indian Ocean beyond the reach of land with the remaining fuel.
55 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Apparently, I need to repeat this in every thread. International Convention on Civil Aviation, Annex 13 "OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION 3.1 The sole
56 Mir : I could see it interfering with the radios (and I believe it has happened a few times, though not on the 777). But I have a very hard time believe th
57 garpd : It's not about what we want! It's about what fits the profile. And your theory does not. It cannot explain the transponder stopping its transmissions
58 cbrboy : Zeke I'm not clear why you would refer to 'erratic tracks' - it seems to me that the available information about MH370's path shows quite precise and
59 COOEE : Ok I see all your points But could ( bear with me ) hypoxia set in to a point where turning off the ACARS or ignoring EICAS flashing alarms makes sens
60 captainx : That LEFT turn south after passing Indonesia was human initiated. Immersat said speed was maintained at about 350kts on that last track. I believe one
61 David L : Whoops, yes. Determining probable cause is just a step to that end.
62 Post contains links GZed : The huge problem with your theory is that it does not explain why the VAMPI and MEKAR waypoints were entered. These points are to the west of Malaysi
63 COOEE : Well it seems its in the Southern Ocean, and if the ships get to confirm the debris as being from MH370 - and the Americans get to haul up the black b
64 Post contains links and images nupogodi : No, their analysis was done on 400kt and 450kt possible speeds since that is the data they had from other T7s on similar routes at the time. The 450k
65 alhena :
66 Finn350 : Turning off ACARS communications is an obscure setting buried in the FMS menus. It is very unlikely that you would turn it off by accident. Yes, base
67 garpd : Technically, and as far as I understand it: Perhaps. Once hypoxic, you can end up doing things you might not ordinarily do. Mostly however its about
68 Gonzalo : I was referring to a couple of incidents involving a 777 and a 767, the former a United bird ( the latter I can't remember now ), where they have, in
69 ExpatExp : This question has been asked and addressed a number of times in this series of threads, most recently about five hours ago (just scroll back). I don'
70 COOEE : Retrieving the black box after such a long flight would only reveal the last 120 minutes of voice. Would there be any other recorded date in the box f
71 Post contains images scbriml : The Inmarsat data has been analysed and peer-reviewed by experts. It is clear, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, that MH370 took the southern track and ran ou
72 Post contains images nupogodi : I agree, I am only talking about discrediting the idea that the aircraft didn't crash and that people are alive. I mean, there WAS that Delta Dart th
73 Mir : Perhaps, but in order to get to that point you'd have to have many other failures in either warning systems, procedures or common sense. As I said be
74 Post contains images scbriml : Yes, I understood that, I was agreeing with you. Maybe not clearly enough!
75 Pihero : Quick research brought the motto of the USAF Pararescue Teams, later taken by the USN rescue divers. "That others may live" became "So others may liv
76 COOEE : Thanks Mir. Yes the hypoxic idea does have flaws - but I can only ponder why Helios 522 did not report the same alerts or putting masks on. I'm only t
77 timothy31388 : No, that is not true. The family is keeping a low profile for obvious reasons, and also, there were no marital problems between the Captain and his w
78 nupogodi : Helios xpdr kept working since it does not breathe Yes it would go off No there could not be
79 flyingturtle : Although it does not contain voice data, there is often also a QAR (quick access recorder), mainly for solving maintenance problems. This one could g
80 AirKorea : 7 tricks MH 370 pilots did to blind the stupid (MA, CH, VI, IN, IN, TH) My speculation with all news, data and information around MH 370 is that it is
81 Post contains images GZed : Referring to the recently published "MH370 measured data against predicted tracks" graphic above, can I ask our SATCOM and radar experts on the forum
82 Post contains images JimJupiter : Might be my lack of English, but I did not understand a thing in this post.
83 jox : I guess the label "Possible turn" might indicate what they are thinking themselves. I would guess that the doppler shift would vary slightly if the a
84 Post contains links PanAmPaul : I don't see this covered yet so adding info on search update. It sounds like it is rather treacherous in the search region. Australia Suspends MH370 S
85 theaviator380 : I don't want to sound very disrespectful towards either of the pilots, however to add to your 7 points, 8. Chosen night flight with No moon on the ni
86 nupogodi : Re 3: The predicted tracks are based on other T7 aircraft with Inmarsat Classic Aero equipped flying those tracks or approximately those tracks at th
87 Post contains images flyingturtle : 10. Drugging him so he does not notice the crazy compass heading. David
88 rc135x : I believe the poster is elaborating reasons why he thinks one of the pilots intentionally hijacked his own airplane (fact -> rationale).
89 jox : If it hand't been for the "fact" that ACARS was off - it could have been the engine status message supposed to be sent to RR at engine shutdown?
90 CALTECH : Enough liquid and anything is possible. Liquids are very bad for the center pedestal.
91 moose135 : No, it is the motto of the US Air Force Pararescue service. Fortunately, I never needed their services, but it was always comforting to know they wer
92 Gonzalo : I think he's talking about the countries MA : Malaysia / CH: China / VI: Vietnam / IN : Indonesia / IN : India / TH : Thailand. In any case, the whol
93 nupogodi : Maybe. But as we know, ACARS was off. I imagine a momentary power failure causing the SATCOM modem to attempt to re-establish connection with the sys
94 Post contains images JimJupiter : He lost me here: I assume it's about a perfectly executed suicide? But why bother? As a pilot, he would have known that none of those red herrings...
95 jox : Would the modem be powered from batteries in case of engines/generators failing? Maybe after a short "blip" causing a reboot?
96 TheRedBAron : Oh please, we are back to thread number 5? As of now there is still no conclusive evidence the debris on the south part of the predicted track are IND
97 rfields5421 : You do realize that everything Malaysian has been doing with the families from almost the third day has been at the direction and guidance of some of
98 ikramerica : English isn't his first language of course, but what he is showing is that if the goal were simple suicide, why not just crash plane. But if the goal
99 nupogodi : That is something I could not possibly answer definitively. As a non-critical system, I imagine it would be one of the first things to go when power
100 alhena : Maybe they are not pings but doppler shifts from normal ACARS packets?
101 jox : That would be my guess as well. But what about the APU? Wouldn't it try to auto-start when the (last) engine stops? Would it be a possibility that th
102 Post contains images rcair1 : There are also legal ramifications. People cannot start filing for life insurance, etc if there is no finding of death. No - no - no, and again - no.
103 N757ST : If it's like almost all other transport jets, the apu would not auto start. The ram air turbine would auto deploy after loss of power on bus 1 and 2,
104 7BOEING7 : On this airplane (and 787) APU will auto start. The engines although flamed out are still spinning and the engine driven hydraulic pumps are still fu
105 nupogodi : When training for my PPL, I was a bit upset with my radio work since I got flustered easily when ATC went off-script and I ended up sounding like an
106 rcair1 : Which is why I've not posted an updated Sanity Check in several days. There has been nothing to report. With news today - there is, but it is a major
107 N757ST : Goes to show you the different philosophies of Airbus vs Boeing. Interesting.
108 Kelloggs : rcair1 I respect what you say. The metars here in perth have been utter rubbish for the day and end of story there. There has been converations with m
109 FltAdmiralRitt : With such stormy conditions in the search area: I am not sure that if we were to find small bits of plane's debris after 3 weeks pass, that we could r
110 BackSeater : Radar data used as a forensic tool points to intentional maneuvering? In my previous posts #112 in thread 43 and #178 in 44, I proposed that the aircr
111 polnebmit : You've done a great job in keeping some sanity in these threads with your Sanity Checks. Personally after thread 20ish... I somewhat lost interest in
112 Post contains images nupogodi : You learn quickly how to skip over the meaningless posts if you try. When mandala speaks, you should listen...
113 Kelloggs : So do I. As I live in Perth as you we are wondering where it is too. but I got two 777s sitting in my office. Now lets stop wondering where it is and
114 neutrino : Not an airliner, much less a large ship such as the T7, but in my experience with the single seat A-4 Skyhawk, the cockpit consoles and electrics can
115 Post contains images bikerthai : Good point. For us who want to keep up with the sanity check but do not want to deal with the discussion (although some are quite good). Is there a w
116 bikerthai : At a minimum all LRU's on the aircraft have to resists condensing humidity. I believe that is one of the qualification testing requirements. As "rain
117 davidzill : My original theory from day one is panning out. I think it is reasonable to believe that the aircraft experienced a fire, either a cargo-induced or an
118 nupogodi : You make two points, both of which have been refuted. Neither scenario would incapacitate the aircraft in such a way for it to behave as it did. If t
119 doug_Or : The cabin of the aircraft starts out at the same pressure altitude as the airplane when on the ground (in this case sea level). As the aircraft climb
120 Trin : Yes. It is.
121 Post contains links 65mustang : The. BBC is reporting today that an attempted "partial handshake" was attempted with a ground station at 8:19. ACARS via vhf maybe as it crashed? http
122 nupogodi : VHF? Where they were?! Forget about it. edit: You may be confused: all communications through a satellite are communications to a ground station. Rea
123 Post contains links moose135 : rcair1 has included a link on his profile page to his latest sanity check under the "Homepage" field: http://www.airliners.net/profile/rcair1 And may
124 rcair1 : This is true in emergency services as well. Sometimes the people who complain the most about others 'tying up the frequency' are the worst offenders.
125 neutrino : Just to be a little pedantic, KLIA is 21m or 70ft above sea level.;
126 747megatop : An uncontained inflight fire would have brought down the aircraft quickly i guess judging by all past experiences of in flight fire. So this theory d
127 11Bravo : Really? It doesn't seem there is any evidence that this aircraft had a fire as you explain it. The behavior of the aircraft for the last 6+ hours of
128 SimonDanger : Fascinating description of the Inmarsat calculus, thanks for posting. Here is where I have some issues, with company management, but they are not dir
129 flood : It was briefly mentioned somewhere up-thread. As the handshakes occur on an hourly basis, this additional unexpected transmission may have been the r
130 gobeyond : Well IMO the unthinkable did happen. I am sure that once the black box is found - which it will be - we will be stunned with the remoteness of the sce
131 Post contains images PW100 : So how long did it take for the AF447 cargo manifest to be OFFICIALLY published (I don't consider the NYT or WSJ to be official). How long did it tak
132 DTW2HYD : If the southern track is true, only possibility is a VHF station on Cocos (Keeling) Islands. Not sure if there is one there. But if a VHF station had
133 Finn350 : They mean a satellite ground station. Everything related to the pings and handshakes is based on Inmarsat SATCOM communications.
134 BruceSmith : Those three are probably the handshakes caused by the sending of ACARS messages on engine start, take-off and reaching cruising speed. The normal cha
135 PW100 : Not a SATCOM nor radar expert, but this is my take: 1) Not sure if that is a “ping” The graph says data, so I’m inclined to believe those 3 dat
136 L-188 : I don't know if anybody else saw it over at CNN but they ran a piece by Les Abend a editor at Flying Magazine and a ATP himself. He runs through a lik
137 nupogodi : Impossible. Too far for VHF. Would not be something Inmarsat has access to either.
138 Post contains images bikerthai : Must be a browser setting or something because when I hit the link in his home page, it takes me to a previous thread and the recap is collapsed amon
139 nupogodi : At this point it would be best not to listen to any so-called "experts" on MSM. Sure, he may be an ATP, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about
140 65mustang : I was thinking that if this went through Satcom that Inmarsat would have found it days ago. Maybe this was a different communication that was just di
141 nupogodi : As for people questioning the Inmarsat graph: remember, they don't have any previous data to correlate to the "took off KUL-PEK, diverted, flew over t
142 nupogodi : Found what days ago? They have done unprecedented analysis on the information they have. It's amazing what they have accomplished. A different source
143 Post contains links and images mandala499 : REPLIES FOR PREVIOUS PART (P44) That was what I was told 4 years ago by Inmarsat's people... $1 per flight hour is airtime costs only, and is position
144 Post contains images N328KF : Some perspective: Source: https://twitter.com/HowardSlutsken/status/448507904773996544/photo/1
145 nupogodi : I think this is the second time in a few days you have agreed with me. I think that makes us friends.
146 moose135 : Sorry I wasn't clear - it isn't a separate page, it links to the latest sanity check he has posted in the threads. I believe when he posts a new one,
147 Finn350 : The ACARS communications was supposedly turned off between 1:07 am and 1:37 am, so the last partial handshake really can't be the engine health repor
148 nupogodi : Having driven across those areas, I'll tell you that you barely want to be conscious let alone looking for things there. Joking aside, it looks worse
149 checksixx : My God...care to share the data and imagery you have to verify this? As far as I know...NOTHING...absolutely NOTHING...has been provided to verify th
150 PW100 : I can see them doing an experiment with a 777 flying the first three - four hours of the actual and calculated flight path of MH370, to validate thei
151 nupogodi : Based on their press release via the Malaysian Transport authority, it doesn't seem that that's what they did. They used actual data from other 777s
152 rcair1 : They likely do. That plan probably applies to more "normal" crashes (if such can exist) where we have a crash site, etc. This event is outside bounds
153 rcair1 : It's not that hard. It places the post at the top of the screen. You only have to expand that top one - it is right there. I've not figured out how t
154 Post contains links solarflyer22 : He does push the fire scenario.Should be interesting to see who is right. He definitely has more insight and seems to have a gut feeling. I saw the a
155 Post contains links and images BruceSmith : So what is this? Chopped beef?
156 hivue : A Gulfstream and an A319 or A320 were said to have been part of the SAR effort although they don't seem to be SAR-type aircraft to me. Could they hav
157 N328KF : "Chopped liver." The expression is "chopped liver." With that said, though I understand and agree with the science that came up with this solution, I
158 nupogodi : No. Well, maybe. It would have to be the exact same modem and they would have to align the flights with nearly the exact same position of the satelli
159 Post contains links 65mustang : I found this quote from an anonymous pilot in an article from March 19: “It is Mas procedure to switch ACARS, VHF, and High Frequency selection off
160 Finn350 : According to the Inmarsat graph, the satellite motion is accurately known and thus can be taken out of the equation so to speak. But I agree that no
161 LTC8K6 : How would fuel balancing work in a 777 with an incapacitated flight crew? Is it automated in the 777? If it isn't, how does this affect flight with an
162 rc135x : I really don't understand this conversation or the ultimate logic behind it. On 5 June 1969 the RC-135E RIVET AMBER disappeared over the Bering Sea a
163 SSTeve : ^ Schroedinger's airplane.
164 SimonDanger : Agreed. I do government liaison work with a state emergency operations center that has performed dozens of exercises, and at least a dozen real-life
165 rcair1 : I actually disagree - I think it is more likely emergency providers have done this than corporations. Having worked as safety coordinator for a major
166 rolfen : The relatives probably won't really truly believe any of that until the wreckage is found, and even they they will want to know about remains... I kn
167 7BOEING7 : No. Up until one engine flames out the autopilot would probably be able to handle any imbalance that would generally be expected -- after that with p
168 LTC8K6 : I think a lot of folks are overlooking that... Debris means some closure, and the families need closure.
169 Post contains links and images Pihero : Pings, Loci and the last route of Flight 370 First of all, what is behind the term *Ping* ? It’s like a fraction of a microsecond conversation betwe
170 Mir : They got the alert, but did not identify it properly and mistook it for the takeoff configuration alarm. Since they were inflight, they determined it
171 LTC8K6 : Thanks for the fuel balance answers. It seems we need the AP working in the scenario where a fire takes out the crew and a lot of systems, in order fo
172 cougar15 : I am not liking this theory at all. Look at some cockpit shots on this very platform! The Cockpit is HUGE, heck when jumping from the 744 to the trip
173 DeltaMD90 : I take most of what these "experts" say with a grain of salt. Didn't some very experienced airline pilot suggest that the pilots climbed to 45,000' t
174 fooflyboy : Well FWIW so is mine. The plane was taken over by [fill in the blank] and the attempt was made to make it disappear into thin air. This person's plan
175 hivue : So the missing ACARS messages could have a benign explanation.
176 LTC8K6 : You would think MAS would know their own procedures, and not report that this is unusual...
177 Post contains images AR385 : Blood can be a very corrosive liquid and could certainly damage the panels a lot more than coffee. That turn to the South... Keep dreaming. They´ve
178 hivue : It doesn't have to be at odds with MAS procedures. ACARS is switched off for VHF because of no coverage (makes sense), then later it's planned to swi
179 Post contains links and images mandala499 : I don't expect you to... I'm not God... This has to be refined. Last weekend was the first time I could sit down and gather all the available data. I
180 hivue : Maybe the crews don't understand the details of how it works? Eliminating the ACARS switch-off as abnormal does reduce (very slightly) the number of
181 YULWinterSkies : It certainly should be made somewhat public, for transparency reasons. What was there matters, not because it was necessarily suspect and ready to ca
182 kevinkevin : I don't understand where the "incapacitated crew" theory is coming from. If the crew was unconscious at the point of turn over the China sea, unless
183 BackSeater : re.MH370 measured data against predicted tracks. Let me rephrase what I think Inmarsat's diagram shows. The satellite moves constantly around its nomi
184 Post contains images F9Animal : I am sure you will repeat it again! LOL! Not everybody has the time to read every post on this. I have tried, but with 40 plus threads already, there
185 rcair1 : This makes no sense to me. It is not like a different Satellite covers China - it is still SATCOM to Inmarstat. That downlink will be whereever it ma
186 nupogodi : You misunderstand; it's not that the satellite motion can be 'taken out of the equation', it is *exactly* why they were able to get the results that
187 Post contains images iwok : Does anyone have enough knowledge of the T7, with the known fuel level to answer the following question. Could the 777 made its way to the vicinity of
188 nupogodi : No, it would greatly reduce range as you thought. There is very little chance it made it anywhere near there. Look at the predicted tracks based on I
189 flyingturtle : Yes, you just need a few chemistry aficionados to convert the plastics from the luggage into Jet A fuel. And a chemical plant on board. David
190 Finn350 : You wrote that "they would have to align the flights with nearly the exact same position of the satellite in its orbit". The satellite's orbit motion
191 GZed : Normally I would agree with this sentiment, but MH370 has been so difficult to find that the "why" question needs to at least be pondered, using the
192 hivue : I don't believe you can get any vectors out of the satellite data. (At least I don't think Inmarsat did that.)[Edited 2014-03-25 15:31:56]
193 GZed : No, this was at around 2:30 local time, 2 hours into the flight, right around the time predicted for the final big turn to the left, and ACARS was of
194 Finn350 : I should have written "velocity vector component parallel to the axis defined by the plane and the satellite", to be exact. If the plane would be fly
195 hivue : Or maybe 3 possible values for one point on the graph? Maybe they should have used a dotted line there or something.
196 nupogodi : Actually, what I wrote was perfectly correct, and in THIS case the satellite's orbit does matter. If it was perfectly geostationary or nearly so, any
197 jcxroberts : There's no evidence at all the pilot or co-pilot were suicidal or wahhabi sympathizers. Also the behavior of the plane has nothing in common with past
198 Post contains links nupogodi : For anyone curious, here is INMARSAT 3F1's orbit: http://www.n2yo.com/?s=23839 (zoom in to actually see it) You see how it follows an elliptical patte
199 Post contains links Starlionblue : We've talked about how CNN and FOX, among others, have done their best to fill the MH370 airtime with inane speculation and plain idiocy. CNN has been
200 Finn350 : No. Only if the mirrored northern and southern tracks started at the equator, they could not discriminate the northern and southern track based on th
201 nupogodi : Unfortunately you are incorrect. If the satellite was perfectly geostationary, any movement away from the satellite in any direction at the same spee
202 rcair1 : This is incorrect. - The first 4 pings (not 3) were not "within 5 minutes" - they were about 10 minutes apart - so they were within 40 minutes. - The
203 fooflyboy : HAHAHAHA...wow. I don't watch faux news nor cnn. Thanks for letting me see what I've been missing. Jeezus that is bad.
204 11Bravo : That is often the case with persons who commit suicide. People who exibit "suicidal behavior" or those that make specific suicidal statements are oft
205 aftgaffe : I've dipped out of the thread for a while though skimming back through recent posts and... there are some very smart people on here. Fun and interesti
206 Post contains images p51tang : No Good Sir.....definitely would not be a winning ticket.Although,I will consider buying a Flight Sim,that way if I'm ever on-board a flight and the
207 AR385 : I´m sorry, but it´s not common at all. The people who commit suicide without giving a clue are the minority. Most successful suicides have attempte
208 Pihero : Had you followed this thread as carefully as DavidL, you wouldn't have written that.There is a plot derived from the Sat pings If you cared to read m
209 Finn350 : Doppler shift is produced only by the velocity component that is along axis defined by the plane and the satellite, i.e due to the distance changing
210 BuyantUkhaa : Mandala, thank you for this excellent explanation - an eyeopener. So that gives us a very strong indication that the plane was left to fly until it r
211 DeltaMD90 : Problem with this theory (and many others) is that it just provides a bunch of unprovable assumptions (at this time) and really don't advance the inv
212 nupogodi : I think you and I mostly agree. I am not sure why you think the movement of the satellite was not a factor, since it very clearly is and has stated t
213 GZed : Sounds like you are wrongly assuming that the predicted north and south tracks mirrored each other in the sense that the westerly end points match. T
214 GZed : Yes, they are the one's being discussed.
215 Finn350 : Yes, I think we agree. To summarize regarding satellite orbital motion: - the orbital motion has to be substracted to get the Doppler shift due to th
216 WingedMigrator : Aha! I've wondered for a long time how you could get different Doppler shifts in a situation that is essentially symmetrical about the equator. If th
217 nupogodi : Indeed. I posted a link to a site that tracks its orbit, it moves around quite a bit. We are indeed talking about INMARSAT 3F1. It is incredible to u
218 aftgaffe : What's your point exactly? We have very few facts. So ever theory will involve a whole host of assumptions. Advancing the discussion, I believe, invo
219 DeltaMD90 : Because you can just insert any random, mindless assumption here and there and what does that get us? Parachuting hijackers? Seriously? If everyone d
220 Post contains links 777Jet : Very interesting scenario. The Captain would also have had at his disposal the FO who is the son of a Government official. Perhaps he could also use
221 Post contains images hivue : OK, thanks. I see what you're saying. And thank you as well. Data plots should always be crystal clear (I did not say "simple"). Perhaps they should
222 Post contains images David L : Yes, I wasn't sure what to make of that reply. I left it alone in case it turned into a "what good has science ever done" discussion.
223 Post contains images hivue : I thought we passed that milestone some time ago.
224 jelliesR : It was interesting to read that had the satellite been fitted with GPS units, as more modern ones are, the position estimates they got from the pings
225 spacecadet : "The minority" means "fewer than 50%", not "none". But you're incorrect, anyway. Only 20% of successful suicides involved a previous attempt, and mos
226 nupogodi : I'm not sure where you are getting this information from. INMARSAT 3F1 would not be a GPS satellite, it is a comm sat in a completely different orbit
227 DTW2HYD : Is it possible to select stored final destination say "Perth, Australia" from FMC or some other console. Thinking of a gradual decompression scenario
228 hivue : A constant ground speed seems like an innocent enough assumption to me. Then it's just a case of make a line of those points and match that up with t
229 aftgaffe : "Seriously?" is not a criticism. But by all means, share your dialogue-advancing theory that fits the generally-accepted facts. Feel free to also exp
230 nupogodi : Please read the thread. The decompression scenario has been discussed to death. The investigators believe this to be a deliberate act, and the armcha
231 jelliesR : From the newspaper, the independent. Apparently newer satellites of this type (no of course it isn't a GPS sat) does have a GPS device installed, whi
232 AR385 : We are probably going to have to look at how statistics are determined for this, because my sources say something else, anyway. It´s difficult to un
233 nupogodi : I thought you were talking about this satellite in particular. 3F1 is the oldest or the second oldest in their constellation, orbited in 1996 and way
234 DeltaMD90 : "Seriously" can be used to address wild ones like UFOs for example, but I digress. No, you come up with plausible explanations (suicide, fire, etc) a
235 Post contains links jelliesR : I am From the article http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...d-in-search-for-plane-9213137.html "The company said it was able to provide a location w
236 aftgaffe : Fine, but hijacking is not in and of itself sufficient to explain FL350 to FL120 and then back to cruise altitude. Nor does explain making a beeline
237 KristPort : I can't compare the two, as I have never used the older gen Inmarsat network. However, I have used a BGAN terminal on the newer gen, and can say that
238 DeltaMD90 : Mmmm... fair enough... I just seeing making specific assumptions as complicating things. Maybe I should have been more specific in my first reply (an
239 WingedMigrator : To get (precise) time, which you need to figure out (precisely) where the Earth is. Your INS and star trackers will not give you that vital informati
240 aftgaffe : We can agree on that. I did not mean to suggest any categorical conclusions but rather a theory that, however implausible, would appear to fit the ha
241 777Jet : I just received this forwarded e-mail from a good pilot friend. Enjoy! "America is withdrawing from Afghanistan, one of their command and control syst
242 nupogodi : Uh, they actually will... As I said, my experience is with imaging satellites.... GPS was out of the question, it was 100% INS and star trackers....
243 jelliesR : Position calculation techniques for geodetic satellites is a whole "thing". Clearly, if they think the newer satellites would have nailed the distanc
244 Post contains images David L : Who needs Snowden when such highly sensitive secrets are careening around the world by e-mail?
245 jelliesR : The whole thing makes me barf. They always sound like they are penned by the same lunatic, or written to press the same hot buttons some people seem
246 DTW2HYD : Thanks for the suggestion, I tried to read as much as possible. My question is not about decompression, question is about the ability to select "fina
247 AR385 : Wow! Tom Clancy would have a fantastic source for a kick-ass novel with this. Seriously. I doubt China would go to such extremes to get ahold of a te
248 Post contains images nupogodi : You can enter any waypoint you want, including a lat/long (i.e. not a formal waypoint on an airway or anything). I doubt it would be labelled as "fin
249 Post contains images LandSweetLand : 777Jet is from Australia so he's more likely to be an Assange
250 nupogodi : Many scenarios. Enough thrust differential/drag differential that maintaing the heading would exceed the limits of its control authority, for one. Bu
251 PRFlyer : Tom Clancy died October last year.
252 Post contains images AR385 : I know. Hence the tenses on my post. But thank you anyway for the correction.
253 Capt.Fantastic : I find this appalling. These forums have an excellent reputation of providing good information and insight from aviation professionals and enthusiast
254 Post contains images KirkSeattle : We've come to new lows, seriously. That aircraft has to be found so that the families can begin their process of mourning. And the investigators can
255 Dalavia : I'll give a simple answer as an interested amateur who is fascinated both by aviation and problem solving in the real world. I don't think the sectio
256 777Jet : This is beginning to make AF447 look like a piece of cake! It's 2014 and a 777 went missing over two weeks ago and there has not been one piece of de
257 nupogodi : Heh, what I have read someone say - and I think it's meaningful - is that realistically you are looking for a specific needle in a needle factory. Th
258 gatorman96 : Do you want an honest response to this or is this a joke? I'll bite for the hell of it. Who is your friend? Flying With Fish? And is his source the D
259 Post contains links rfields5421 : US airlines took many years to develop their post-crash management programs. I'm old enough to remember when the airlines would send people to the ho
260 gatorman96 : I read in an earlier article that a few private aircraft, with no SAR capabilities, took part in the rescue operation as nothing more than extra sets
261 Post contains images TheCommodore : You could be on to something here gatorman96..... Just think how much money airlines allover the world, could save on tech crew wages and the like, i
262 Post contains links cbrboy : I believe you will find, if you look at the AMSA website media updates on the search, that the private aircraft were/are chartered by AMSA and carry
263 Post contains links PanAmPaul : I've read most of the posts in this part of the discussion but I'm still not sure if the new "partial ping" has been mentioned. Just in case... Invest
264 EA CO AS : Remember though, even US carriers didn't have their current style of disaster plans in place until after the lessons learned from TW800, and even the
265 Post contains links VC315 : The family issue with the MH370 Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah raised by Chinese media a while ago has long been flagged as untrue (see many past threads)
266 aftgaffe : Can anyone shed light on what a "partial" ping is and why one might be initiated at a seemingly random interval? I've seen mention of the partial pin
267 checksixx : No...we know it was not transmitting...we don't know why. Essentially...yes. One does a poor job of explaining Dopplar shift...one shows a graph acco
268 Post contains links PanAmPaul : I don't think anyone really knows, hence: above from Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 Sent One Additional Ping ..
269 gatorman96 : Regarding the conspiracy theories, before anyone posts one, think to yourself: "Would this be an awesome movie or a fiction book?" If the answer is ye
270 AR385 : The evidence IS clearly on the table. At least it seems to me. You may not see it, and that is ok. What type of evidence would you like to see? I´m
271 gatorman96 : I've said this many times throughout these threads, but who are we to think that MH or any other investigative body should share anything with us? Th
272 rc135x : Since you didn't have the common decency to respond to any of my questions which are absolutely germane to the issue at hand and to the logic (or ill
273 Post contains links and images TheRedBAron : Well its been reported this was found hours ago in the sand of a Beach in the Maldives, it looks like a fire extinguisher from a cargo bay, but maybe
274 AR385 : Interesting. Ocean currents are weird. Well maybe not to the scientists. For me, a layman, they are. If that is what it is and is proven to come from
275 spacecadet : It's only "not relevant" if you've discounted the pilot suicide scenarios, which you seem to have done despite any available evidence to rule it out.
276 Post contains links jelliesR : engine fire bottle on Boeing (scroll Down) http://www.b737.org.uk/fireprotection.htm not saying it is that just looks similar[Edited 2014-03-25 21:37:
277 Mir : Definitely looks like a fire bottle. I'd imagine there's at least some model number on it, and maybe people can work from there. -Mir
278 AR385 : We´ve obviously misunderstood each other. Up to now, I think the most probable explanation for the loss of this flight is pilot suicide. What I am d
279 aftgaffe : It seems to me a pretty big leap to go from the Malaysian government not understanding this particular ping to no one having any idea what a partial
280 nupogodi : Incredibly similar... What a strange thing. Hopefully like any important aircraft part, it has a serial number and can be tracked. Or maybe that's so
281 Post contains links p51tang : Investigation of a possible southern arc contrail. http://www.weathergraphics.com/malaysia/contrail.shtml
282 Skydrol : It is nice to see that some people can remain open-minded, and not just accept announcements without hard evidence. I am open to any possibility and
283 Skydrol : Hopefully this could really be a breakthrough and not another red herring! LD4
284 Post contains images rcair1 : Introductory comments: Changes in this edition. First, I'm going to start with a restatement of what we know - right up front. Yes - I know: First a
285 rwessel : Afghanistan shares a border with China. While it's pretty rugged, the Wakhjir Pass can be traversed by (determined) trucks during a fair chunk of the
286 Post contains links and images mandala499 : The why is as far as I know part of the search but not part of the accident investigation, it is part of the criminal investigation. Yes... it's eith
287 Mir : Even in the US, the FAA has a very archaic view of pilots seeking counseling for mental health issues, even if no medications are involved. It can an
288 Post contains links SA7700 : Due to length this thread will be locked for further contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes on
289 Post contains links phantomx18 : Object washed ashore in the Maldives (not sure about this news source, never heard of them before): http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54153 . .thought to
290 fodar : The reported summaries that I read in a few of the more detailed news reports stated that the estimates were made using the doppler shift in the burs
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