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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 68129 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 45 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 46:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)



**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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**** Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

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Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
295 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 68274 times:

Now when is there a news update on actually reading the serial number or even verifying off the possible fire protection bottles that washed up in the Maldives? It cant take that long to confirm what exactly the object was by now.


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlinephantomx18 From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 68207 times:

Posting again from previous thread lock:

Object washed ashore in the Maldives - Baarah Beach(not sure about this news source, never heard of them before):

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54153

. .thought to be bomb or mine, but sure looks like this:

http://quick.aero/sterling/blog/how-...658848.pagespeed.ic.Fm-5teWM9D.jpg

A a fire suppression bottle. . . similar to what would be found on the missing MH370.

What are the odds of one of these floating in the ocean, washing up ashore thousands of miles away from search area, when no other plane has been reported missing in the area?

Could ocean currents account for this, or are they looking in the wrong place? Or could this be an elaborate hoax?

[Edited 2014-03-25 22:55:43]

[Edited 2014-03-25 22:56:24]

[Edited 2014-03-25 23:13:51]

User currently offline65mustang From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 67691 times:

I posed a question in part 40 reply 35 about how large of a piece of the plane has to be to show up on primary radar. I think that if a piece of the plane fell off, that it would match the data of the plane descending at 40000 fps and also match the ghost plane/depressurization hypothesis. It would also be a reason for debris being found in places other than the south indian ocean like maybe the fire bottle in the maldives. I googled for news reports that might be related to this idea. I found a google translation of an article that appeared in the china times dated March 8:

In addition, the U.S. Embassy said the 2:43 U.S. military bases stationed in Thailand U-Tapao SOS signal was listening to some of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 emergency call, said the aircraft cabin facing disintegration driver call, they want a forced landing . U.S. troops are currently stationed in Thailand, Malaysia has been providing this signal.

I saw this was mentioned way back in part 3, but i did not see where it was resolved. I can't find a conclusive info debunking this(anybody got more info?). The only references i found to this incident on the internet referred to this translated article. Nothing in english news. Utapao is roughly an hour from where mh370 was at the time of the transmission(if this happened). Utapao is on china time so this time should be 3:43 malaysia/indochina time which does not fit the timeline. If the 2:43 was malaysia/indochina time it is close to the 3 satcom pings that occurred at approximately at 2:25, 2:27, and 2:28. What prompted the mh 370 to communicate through satcom at this time and is the utapao mayday true? Maybe there is a piece of the plane at the bottom of the gulf of Thailand where this whole thing started and a ship should do a sonar search.


I am very interested in this potential fire bottle. I Think i see soot on the bottle. Might just be a reflection. I hope there was not a bomb squad that blew it up.

[Edited 2014-03-25 23:27:20]

User currently offlinenm2582 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 67583 times:

I am not in any way certified or educated as a wreckage inspector, but ***IF*** this object is a fire bottle, and ***IF*** it's from MH370, then I find it surprising how intact and undamaged it looks. I would have thought it would be dented or damaged, or still be partially attached to some of it's supporting structure, or otherwise show some evidence that it's been in a significant incident. It just seems odd to me...

User currently offlineBruceSmith From South Africa, joined May 2011, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 67509 times:

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 2):

Object washed ashore in the Maldives - Baarah Beach(not sure about this news source, never heard of them before):

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54153

. .thought to be bomb or mine, but sure looks like this:

http://quick.aero/sterling/blog/how-...658848.pagespeed.ic.Fm-5teWM9D.jpg

A a fire suppression bottle. . . similar to what would be found on the missing MH370.

How big is an engine fire suppression bottle? In relation to the plant leaves and the logs, that object looks between 8 and 12 inches across.


User currently offlinephantomx18 From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 67376 times:

I have no idea how big they are on a 777 but from researching online, they can be around that size (on the smaller end). We need someone with experience about the bottles on the 777 to chime in on how big they are (I am assuming there are different bottles of different sizes positioned through out the plane).

Also. . .the spherical shape of the bottle would absorb a lot of impact, and if we assume it was actually used to fight a fire, wouldn't it then be empty (filled with air), and therefore buoyant?


User currently offlineAlexA340B777 From Indonesia, joined Oct 2008, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 67280 times:

Regarding the supposed fire supression bottle found on Maldives:
Is anyone communicating that to the investigation team of MH370?

In the linked newspaper article containing the picture there is no word
Mentioning that anyone is considering a connection to the missing MH370 flight...


Alex



So far travelled to 65 countries on 5 continents on 410 flights
User currently offline65mustang From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 67182 times:

Boeing article about replacing halon systems.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2011_q4/3/


User currently offlineFinn350 From Finland, joined Jul 2013, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66936 times:

If we trust in the southern track predicted by Inmarsat, the fire extinguisher bottle in the Maldives can't possibly be from MH 370.

User currently offlinedavs5032 From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66876 times:

Just a suggestion to the mods, it would be helpful if RCAIR1's most recent Sanity Check - post 284 in the previous thread - were copied onto this one.


And THANKS, Rcair1, for your continued hard work on that!


User currently offlineTapir From Malaysia, joined Mar 2014, 136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66822 times:

Re: Sanity Check.

Am I correct to say that there's no cargo manifest available except for a select few? Furthermore, three items mentioned in list raise further questions.

1) Mangosteen - This was the first item listed by MAS CEO. it should have been the batteries and radios.

2) Battery

3) Radio.

There are hardly any mangosteens during this time of the year due to one of the worse draught that hit this country recently. Anyone from Msia can confirm this? Secondly, why would China want to import batteries and radios from Msia?


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66708 times:

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 9):
If we trust in the southern track predicted by Inmarsat, the fire extinguisher bottle in the Maldives can't possibly be from MH 370.

Indeed.

As for the fire suppression sphere found om the beach (if that is what it is), are these used on watercraft as well as aircraft?


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66690 times:

Re. Starlionblue reply #6, replies #2-15 et al., thread #45:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/25/news/malaysia-airlines-compensation/

Thank you in advance. Money is never "free". To me, a $5,000 initial payment IS "hush" money. It is, "calm them down" money. Just as some members have stated to me, "calm down." It is the utmost, savage insult. Lose a loved one in a tragic circumstance, and see how you feel. Let's talk 8 digits, or let's talk me savaging you in the press and elsewhere for the rest of my natural life. To anyone who has never lost a loved one in a tragic, weird circumstance, I would say how dare you judge the person grieving. I FEEL for the MAS370 surviving relatives.

Maybe a few posters are more inclined towards the sensitivities of airline companies, or airframe manufacturers. The sentiment has been expressed previously in other crashes during the existence of this internet forum.

There is no onus on me to prove anything; the onus is to express one's opinion, which I have done. Nothing more. Moving on.

No one knows anything regarding this publicly, so there isn't much to talk about. I just hope for the families, having been involved in civil matters before, that they find adequate (brilliant, methodical, caring) representation, and not some ignorant and/or shyster bastards....of which there are many in the civil legal field. Settlement should be in excess of $10M, even in the case of a single, young retail clerk.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinephantomx18 From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66598 times:

Quoting art (Reply 12):

As far as I can tell, the ones found on ships are cylindrical in shape, not spherical. Also, from google images, they appear larger.

[Edited 2014-03-26 00:07:34]

User currently offlinejcxroberts From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66619 times:

The bottle will have a serial number and should be relatively easy to check. We will soon see how competent and honest the Leads are in this case.

User currently offlinephantomx18 From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66466 times:

Member WolfSJ sent me these links showing the bottles are made out of titanium:

http://www.kiddegraviner.com/Files/K...77_Titanium_Cargo_Extinguisher.pdf
http://www.kiddegraviner.com/Files/K..._cargo_extinguisher_capability.pdf

Can someone chime in on the strength of titanium to survive an ocean impact, even maybe a low speed one?


User currently offlineBackSeater From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66356 times:

Could Doppler data imply a great circle rather than constant heading route ?

Looking again at Inmarsat's Doppler graph, the systematic error showing measured always less that predicted may be a very important clue. As much as I am still wondering about the margin of error on RTD measurements because that was not a requirement for Inmarsat to measure and record RTD very accurately, I trust Doppler measurements.

For the Doppler to be always lower means that the projection of the aircraft ground speed vector on the satellite to aircraft vector is smaller. You could say let's reduce the speed but then you will not reach the next circle in time when the next ping arrives.

The other explanation is that the angle between the aircraft speed vector and the satellite to aircraft vector is larger that expected. In that case the ground speed must also be increased to match the next RTD circle rendez-cous.

Clearly I do not have RTD data to test that hypothesis but investigators do.

If that hypothesis holds, I think it would mean that the aircraft was not flying a constant heading but possibly a great circle route to somewhere west of the current search area, even farther away from any land base.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2456 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66317 times:

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 4):
I am not in any way certified or educated as a wreckage inspector, but ***IF*** this object is a fire bottle, and ***IF*** it's from MH370, then I find it surprising how intact and undamaged it looks.
Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 16):

I can well imagine that the fan blades and the rather sturdy engine "backbone" take the brunt of the impact, leaving such a fire bottle pretty much intact. The fire bottle also looks like a pressure vessel, which is built to be stable.

I wonder if you find traces of cables, screws and other metal parts impacting on the fire bottle. (Well, if this is a fire bottle at all...)

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 17):
Could Doppler data imply a great circle rather than constant heading route ?

You may need to re-phrase your question in order to remove ambiguities - because, when you hold your heading constant, every route is a great circle route!

For example http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=kul+-+per - the plane starts with a 159.7 deg heading. You fly and fly and fly without any turns - you end up in Perth. Your constant heading course is a great circle route. Your compass (either true or magnetic) will change, though.

A route where your compass (true, not magnetic) does not change is a rhumb line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhumb_line (which is not a great circle in practically all cases).



David

[Edited 2014-03-26 00:22:08]

[Edited 2014-03-26 00:31:21]

[Edited 2014-03-26 00:38:53]

[Edited 2014-03-26 00:40:37]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 66147 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13):
To me, a $5,000 initial payment IS "hush" money.
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13):
There is no onus on me to prove anything; the onus is to express one's opinion, which I have done.

Of course you can express your opinion but if you argue that you do not need to provide anything to support its validity - and disregard anything that counters your view - what is the point of expressing your opinion?

To follow your approach: it is my opinion that 1+1=3. There is an onus on me to express my opinion. There is no onus on me to prove it.


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 65962 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13):
To me, a $5,000 initial payment IS "hush" money

To hush what exactly? The entire *planet* knows what has been unfolding with MH370. Just turn on your TV...

What discreditable information do you think the relatives have that poses a threat?



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17118 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 65424 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13):

Re. Starlionblue reply #6, replies #2-15 et al., thread #45:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/25/news/malaysia-airlines-compensation/

Thank you in advance. Money is never "free". To me, a $5,000 initial payment IS "hush" money. It is, "calm them down" money. Just as some members have stated to me, "calm down." It is the utmost, savage insult. Lose a loved one in a tragic circumstance, and see how you feel. Let's talk 8 digits, or let's talk me savaging you in the press and elsewhere for the rest of my natural life. To anyone who has never lost a loved one in a tragic, weird circumstance, I would say how dare you judge the person grieving. I FEEL for the MAS370 surviving relatives.

Maybe a few posters are more inclined towards the sensitivities of airline companies, or airframe manufacturers. The sentiment has been expressed previously in other crashes during the existence of this internet forum.

There is no onus on me to prove anything; the onus is to express one's opinion, which I have done. Nothing more. Moving on.

No one knows anything regarding this publicly, so there isn't much to talk about. I just hope for the families, having been involved in civil matters before, that they find adequate (brilliant, methodical, caring) representation, and not some ignorant and/or shyster bastards....of which there are many in the civil legal field. Settlement should be in excess of $10M, even in the case of a single, young retail clerk.

Here we go again. Let me count the ways.

First off, the article supports "our" view and discredits yours. You keep making an argument without any basis, even quoting sources that do the opposite of support your view.

The payments of $5,000 per passenger should help families cope with the immediate financial strain caused by a long search for the plane. But the airline is eventually likely to pay next of kin compensation that ranges into the millions of dollars per passenger.
Under an international treaty known as the Montreal Convention, the airline must pay relatives of each deceased passenger an initial sum of around $150,000 to $175,000.
Relatives of victims can also sue for further damages -- unless the airline can prove that it took all necessary measures to prevent a crash or any other incident that prevented passengers from arriving safely.


Second, the onus is on you when you say things like "show me the contract", which you did. You did not just express an opinion. You asked members to prove to you that you were wrong.

Third, it seems very clear that final settlements are a long way away. Same as in any accident. No surprise there.

Fourth, you unleash this vitriol on lawyers and companies in a matter where not much of import has even happened except MH paying for relatives to stay in hotels, paying for their meals, paying for their travel, paying for their phone calls, and giving them spending money for incidentals. No one is under the illusion that MH will "get away" with cheating the passengers.

Fifth, no one here has said the relatives do not have a right to compensation, and yet you're acting as if some of us want the relatives to be tricked into taking low sums by the company. I am certain everyone here would like the passengers to be alive, but since that doesn't seem to be in the cards, we would be happy if the relatives receive compensation.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinesejtam From Singapore, joined Sep 2011, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 65402 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13):
To me, a $5,000 initial payment IS "hush" money

Right. Everything must have an ulterior, malicious motive.

An initial payment can eg be very welcome to defray initial costs for those families, eg taking care of immediate expenditures that come up due to
- the travel/staying in MY
- continuing their other obligations (eg while their own life-insurance, if they even have such) is processing etc
- heck, even legal representation etc

If you had one/more members of your immediate family torn away like that, possibly the breadwinners, you'd also need ways to defray such immediate costs.

I am sure this won't be the final payment, but it would be premature to expect a payment of the final amounts now, while there is no hope of any result of an investigation. Hence this 'hardship money', and not a any form of restitution..


User currently offlineaw70 From Austria, joined Mar 2014, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 65192 times:

I would like to place a train of thought on the table, just to see what you guys think. In the absence of debris from the aircraft, there is actually still some leeway with respect to what could have happened.

What can we safely conclude so far:

- That the aircraft was lost either due to some truly bizarre sequence of technical faults, or due to malicious actions by someone on board.

If the cause of the disappearance is indeed a technical fault, it certainly will be one of the weirdest aircraft loss scenarios, ever. As no one seems to be able to come up with a technical scenario that matches the observed facts.

However, if malicious intent is the cause, we actually have two fundamentally distinct scenarios to consider:

1. that someone on board acted alone (for whatever motive), or

2. that whatever happened was the result of a planned action by an organisation of some sort (again, for whatever ultimate motive)

It is worth noting that given the scarcity of hard information we have right now, it is currently actually impossible to rule out either option: the first one is of course quite a bit more plausible, as it does not require the existence of a covert organisation intent on destroying or capturing a commercial aircraft. HOWEVER, from a logical viewpoint, this does NOT mean that option 2 can be completely discarded.

Why am I stressing this point? Because if option 2 is what actually happened, the whole thing might not be over at all yet.

If (and this is of course a huge IF) this is the result of a covert organisation of some sort executing a long-planned action plan to seize an airliner, the satcom pings we are working with right now might actually be fake. A deliberately planted false lead, in other words. This would be hard to do from a technical viewpoint, but definitely not impossible. Remember that MH370 used a fairly old version of Inmarsat satcom, one that is very probably still spoof-able with high but doable effort. It would require a lot of specialist knowledge, sure, but it *is* doable if you plan ahead well enough. And you can very probably also fake moving Doppler returns from a stationary emitter, if you have a comms pro working on a sophisticated piece of kit.

Why I am saying this? Well, whoever did this apparently thought the whole thing through reasonably well before he (or they) acted. Chances are that someone like that would also be aware of the satcom issues, if an organisation who wanted a captured aircraft in a particular spot was indeed behind this. And putting out fake satcom pings from an a/c that otherwise went totally dark would have been the perfect tool for making double and triple sure that all available satellite imaging resources would be diverted *away* from remote airfields capable of taking a 777, much closer to where the aircraft disappeared. Which means that *if* option 2 is what actually happened, spoofing the satcom pings would actually be a very sensible thing to do for a perpetrating organisation - this would not be a fluke add-on to a bizarre scenario, but actually a fairly important ingredient in a well-thought out plan.

I am aware that what I am writing here does not help the investigation in any way. Nor am I able to give any sort of sane (or even remotely comprehensible) motive why anyone would want to capture an airliner. And go to all these lengths to cover their tracks. But still. Everyone here seems to take the satcom pings as some sort of gospel. They very, very probably are, and the aircraft is practically certainly indeed at the bottom of the Southern Indian Ocean. But as long as no actual wreckage is found there, option 2 remains an improbable but technically possible scenario. We should keep that in mind.

[Edited 2014-03-26 01:23:11]

User currently offlineliquidair From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 64739 times:

Quoting phantomx18 (Reply 2):

I'd say the two images match really, really closely.

are the bottles from the cargo bay? If not, where are they on the airplane?

This will stir the hornets' nest a little more.


25 Airbus747 : Very well said aw70. I think that confidently stating that we "know" that the aircraft went down is a very, very stretched theory and far from the fu
26 Starlionblue : On a 737, they are in the wheel well. On a 777, I don't know.
27 liss : Hi, first post. My grandfather had a passion for airplanes, so I grew up with great respect for flight and pilots. My own area of study is health scie
28 theaviator380 : Good to see your first post. I have never heard and never imagined commercial aircraft like B777 in which pilot or crew can perform maneuver what you
29 theaviator380 : I have 2 ideas, need to know whether it's possible to make those in reality on commercial aircraft. 1. Having CVR and FDR which can float on water sur
30 Post contains links ciaran : Looking for debris amongst other dedris (the state of our oceans) http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/26/wo...-by-a-sea-of-detritus.html?hp&_r=0
31 Starlionblue : The problem with a floating CVR and FDR is not the floating per se, although it is not a trivial problem. It is the fact that they are by necessity b
32 Mir : The mounts that connect the bottles to the lines that go to the engines (or cargo bay, depending on which bottle it is) are pretty heavy. I don't kno
33 liquidair : Can somebody please bullet point todays conference?
34 Post contains links KarelXWB : Airbus D&S gave Malaysia possible MH370 space images of debris, with 122 possible objects. http://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/448756294133243904
35 jollo : Welcome! Concur. I have witnessed myself a few weird (and awfully harmful) combination of events that would have been very hard to produce (or even i
36 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : Airbus Defence & Space satellite spotted a field of 122 objects potentially related to MH370. http://twitter.com/mykamarul/status/4487563962809262
37 theaviator380 : Thank you, appreciated.
38 Post contains images p51tang : - I've also thought about this.Why were the Landing Lights on, and not the Navigation Lights?.(assuming the public sighting is valid) and I suspect t
39 Apprentice : 1. I don't think this bottle was INSTALLED on MH flight, the bottle still have the protections in places: 2 freon outputs port (red caps), the plugs
40 Post contains links KDTWflyer : CNN is reporting that a satelitte has observed 122 pieces of debris floating in close proximity to each other in the Indian Ocean... http://www.cnn.co
41 art : The image shows SAR area is a long distance away from the position of the 3 sightings of objects by satellite. Which area is now being searched by th
42 Post contains links boacvc10 : I am sure many of a.net community have harbored suspicion that the Prime Minister of Malaysia and Australia wouldn't have made so definitive statement
43 Post contains links and images KarelXWB : The Malaysian government just released another picture: http://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/448763617928683520/photo/1/large
44 liquidair : Sorry, but the way The Australian Newscorps journalist just got humiliated was funny- it's kinda bad directing a question at the MAS CEO when he's not
45 boacvc10 : Wow, look at the scale of that picture .... 76000 meters across. Any object that shows up in that frame, at that scale from a Low Earth Orbiting sens
46 Starlionblue : I'm not sure if the weight-on-wheels logic would allow you to open a cargo door in flight. Even if you could there's no access to the hold. And even
47 Post contains images nupogodi : Floating crap in the ocean, just like every other time they've spotted potential debris...
48 timpdx : I will have to closely look at the extinguisher bottle I have in hand for a TV show I am working on currently later today. Its from an aircraft scrapy
49 boacvc10 : 23 meters in length and bright colors ... not your garden variety "floating crap"
50 KarelXWB : According to the press conference, some of the objects appear to be bright, possibly indicating solid materials.
51 AlexA340B777 : Was there any word in the news conference about the object found in Maldives? Any reporter asking about it? Alex
52 EVAAIRBR076 : Could be floating trash why not? There is floating trash like plastic bottles etc in the ocean that has the size of half of Europe. I wouldn't be sur
53 theaviator380 : Erm..What object? didn't see any news of that.
54 KarelXWB : Yes it could be trash. Those ships have to locate and investigate the debris first.
55 Post contains links AlexA340B777 : see post number 2 of this thread... or here: http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54153 some here saying it is looking very similar to an aircraft engine f
56 Post contains links Starlionblue : See MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)
57 liquidair : ah, come on dude..... There's only been 50 replies in this thread, it's not THAT much to read, lol! head to the first ten posts. i didn't hear anythi
58 LTC8K6 : I can't tell if there are any caps on it in the picture of it on the beach... I can see them in the example pic certainly, but not on the actual pic.
59 DTW2HYD : Earlier reports suggest this is a garbage collection area, so until they find first piece from MH370 we have to keep our fingers crossed.
60 EVAAIRBR076 : And dont forget there is still a lot of trash from fukushima japan, like ships, parts of houses and a lot of other stuff. 23 meters in lenght and then
61 KarelXWB : Both HMAS Success and Xue Long are now in the search area, they will try to locate the debris spotted on satellite.
62 Post contains links and images flood : It looks a lot more 'promising' than previous debris sightings... another image: via http://twitter.com/bevanshields85/status/448773191146561536/phot
63 Post contains links and images Pihero : I'd like to remind all of us on this forum that the only serious clue we have as to the whereabouts of Flight 370 is the NTSB / INMARSAT sutdy, both o
64 flyingturtle : I'll pray and light a candle. Lots of people need answers. David
65 Post contains images David L : It seems quite understandable to me. The head says the evidence has the aircraft coming down out reach of safety while the heart clings on to the thi
66 boacvc10 : The Google maps and other vendor pics of you in your back garden doing .... are taken from overflying aircraft, not from space, on an orbiting platfo
67 Post contains images EVAAIRBR076 : ok i didnt knew that, thanks for clearing that up
68 c680 : Given the following assumptions: 1) The relatively large search area 2) Lack of specific starting point for the search - no known center point to star
69 davs5032 : Agreed. It's not easy trying to meet the realistic outcome theories of the media and public at this point while still respecting the sensitivities of
70 Post contains images flyingturtle : If you ask me for my completely uneducated guess, the chance is 95% that MH370 will be found. You can still use side-scan sonar, even years after the
71 Post contains images Pihero : You flatterer you ! Actually, That's way beyond my computer skills.
72 Post contains images c680 : And who pays for years of searching? Australia? Boeing? Malaysia? China? Something tells me the trial lawyers will not be contributing to that fund!
73 liquidair : meh. Maybe not start making a definitive statement before would have been the better option. i find the acting minister's choice of words far more se
74 David L : And that would be construed by many here and in the press as "hiding information". As someone else said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.
75 thunderboltdrgn : Even if the official search is called off, it doesn't prevent privateers from trying to find it. Even if they lack the resources of the current searc
76 art : I read (on a.net, I think) that the cost of the AF447 operation was US$140 million, shared between airline, aircraft manufacturer and one other party
77 Post contains links KarelXWB : Australian authorities said on Wednesday that three more objects had been spotted by aircraft searching for a Malaysian jet missing in the southern In
78 Post contains images Trin : I don't think there could be, no. To see THAT sort of debris configuration THAT far out at sea? That's MH370.
79 DTW2HYD : I thought MH insurance companies pay for most of it and rest by Malaysian Government. Once debris field is located a contract will be awarded to defe
80 YoungMans : "...Trust me, I work for the Government..!" That seems to be the implied message from the talking heads on the TV news, especially from the politician
81 JimJupiter : We do get to see photos. If we don't get to see more or better ones, it's maybe because keeping us here up to date is not their first concern? Just a
82 Trin : Because, quite simply, we don't matter and we are not entitled to it. Those concerned with SAR efforts and the investigative bodies DO 'get to see' t
83 liquidair : on this occasion i disagree. I think it would have been better for the PM to confirm only that Inmarsat had narrowed the path down to the southern co
84 KarelXWB : Not finding an 777 sized airplane is unacceptable and they will have to do whatever it takes to find it. Airbus payed a lot of money for the AF447 se
85 Post contains links Kaiarahi : There's a good neuroscience article here on investigations / desire for closure / tunnel vision: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...-breeds-certa
86 LH526 : Did the officials cross check the satellite photos with the currents (Indian ocean gyre) and the garbage patches within and so made sure it's not just
87 Post contains links chrisrad : Sorry if this has been discussed already, but I can't see anything about it in the current thread http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...quawk/story-f
88 Post contains links art : Your reasoning is persuasive. I'm inclined to agree. And if the debris field is large, searching ships should be able to find it (whereas so far airc
89 rc135x : According to an FAA technical manual the two engine fire extinguisher bottles are located together some 80 feet from the engines. I would presume tha
90 Post contains links AirKorea : Interesting articale. It is consistent with my speculation about the cause of MH 370 crash. Flight MH370: Pilot in wrong state of mind to fly - friend
91 Kaiarahi : There's something there that doesn't make sense. The FO had 103 hours on type, but the article (and others) keep saying that this was his first fligh
92 shortstack81 : Yes, it could be it, but there are locations in the oceans where flotsum just collects. I'm not sure if all of them are as well known as the ones in
93 theaviator380 : I think Aus authorities should find debri first, pull it up from ocean and then declare they have found debris from MH370.
94 lnglive1011yyz : This post needs to be 'upvoted' (to take from another website I visit), for visibility... Can ANYONE with aircraft maintenance background confirm whe
95 BackSeater : Please allow me to ask why was the aircraft using a "constant magnetic heading" ? Arre you saying that the best track that matches the RTD data to wi
96 theaviator380 : That thing which has been washed to the beach looks little smaller than fire suppression ball/bottle. Also it's almost certain what approximate area
97 BruceSmith : It does look similar to a fire suppression bottle, but it also looks similar to a rocket/satellite spherical fuel tank which is normally made of tita
98 nupogodi : I hope you don't visit threads relating to MH370 on reddit. It is incredibly frustrating to see mountains of misinformation getting upvoted. Anyhow,
99 Post contains images rcair1 : Introductory comments: Changes in this edition. First, I'm going to start with a restatement of what we know - right up front. Yes - I know: First a
100 76er : On the contrary, it makes complete sense. After completing sim training it is standard procedure to initially operate regular flights with an instruc
101 TheRedBAron : Even if the possibility of pilot involvement in this tragedy, exist, I DONT THINK HE DID IT. In the article they don't mention at all he was not even
102 bikerthai : It would be un-wise. As the 777 cargo door opens up and outward, opening it during flight may rip the door from the fuselage, causing catastrophic st
103 lnglive1011yyz : Oh, I don't believe 99% of the stuff I read on reddit lol I don't see the harm in them looking into the item though - it would take just a few minute
104 Post contains links LTC8K6 : http://vnews-assets.s3-website-us-ea...azonaws.com/posts/medium_29224.jpg http://vnews-assets.s3-website-us-ea...azonaws.com/posts/medium_29222.jpg Be
105 rcair1 : I also don't think there is any access to the cargo bay from the cabin. Let's see here - the challenges. - In flight opening of door (rip off) - Inte
106 KarelXWB : Unless there was a John McClane aboard, I agree.
107 bikerthai : Even if you can hack your way down to the cargo bay. You would not be able to get around the containers to get to the door switch. There is no room b
108 Post contains links BruceSmith : From those pictures, that looks like a custom chemical reaction vessel for chemical process development or a calorific test apparatus. No mounting br
109 DTW2HYD : Based on what I heard from oceanography experts on news, the area they are searching is like a washing machine. It would be hard for anything to reac
110 Mir : It's possible on the 747, so it wouldn't surprise me if it were possible on the 777 as well. -Mir
111 nupogodi : I flew on a Thomas Cook A332 that had a "downstairs" washroom. I'd never seen such a thing on a single-deck aircraft, I asked the FA about it, she sa
112 Post contains links LTC8K6 : It does have what looks like a mounting strap mark, though. http://aae-ltd.com/wp-content/uploads/Extinguisher-Bottle-Assembly.jpg I really doubt it'
113 theaviator380 : It's on some of LH A340-300 as well. Don't understand the logic as Thomas cook FA said it takes up cargo space, don't see how it's viable for LH. I d
114 Post contains links BruceSmith : I was thinking raised welded seam, if you follow the line to the edges of the tank, you can see how it curves up from the main radius and even casts
115 rfields5421 : No - the US Embassy never made such an announcement, and the US Department of Defense has denied that any US forces in Thailand picked up any signal
116 fodar : The summaries that I read in the more detailed news reports implied that it was the doppler shift in the burst repetition frequency that was estimate
117 rcair1 : Thanks - do you have that frequency - so I could update the calculations.
118 Trin : They may have already. Given the previous days' good searching conditions, the 'new' (2+ days old) satellite images from Malaysia, and the delays in
119 David L : Are you sure you aren't confusing the dates the images were taken with the dates on which potential wreckage was identified? In your reference to pre
120 Pihero : It's the " ...that would assume a course was programmed"... that I'd like to discuss a bit : The basic modes of an autopilot are HDG - meaning *hold
121 stealthz : I would expect Australia to stay involved to a significant extent while the situation is ongoing... just part of having the ill-fated plane fall into
122 nupogodi : The graph shows, it was, what, 100-300Hz difference in what we know is a 1600MHz carrier. Basically as low as 6 millionths of a percent difference. A
123 Post contains links Toni_ : If I remember correctly, with my outdated maintenance experience on the 747, the fire bottles for the engines and APU do have mounting brackets. You
124 Pihero : Reasonability check : Assuming a crash in the Maldives archipelago, wouldn't lighter objets show first ashore ? long before a metallic, semi-buoyant H
125 sassiciai : What a uniquely American thought! Who's on trial already? All involved parties are guilty until proven innocent?
126 65mustang : The close up picture of the object found in Maldives looks like there is a wire hook at the top that may have been used to hang the object. There also
127 garpd : I would accept that as logical. Besides, it's already been shown that this spherical object lacks the requisite mounting brackets and a second exit p
128 BackSeater : Thank you for your explanation. Be sure that I always read your posts although I may not always grab all of their implications at once. Therefore the
129 LTC8K6 : Well, the idea would be that 9M-MRO actually crashed near the Maldives and the witnesses in the area were right... I don't think so, and as I already
130 davs5032 : Don't lump us in as subscribing to that garbage in any way. I was going to point out the ridiculousness of that post but others beat me to it...looks
131 Post contains links BruceSmith : Now a couple of local Maldivian aircraft engineers apparently think the item is likely a fire suppression bottle, but haven't seen the object in perso
132 yellowtail : Assuming it could be made to float, the bolts would be the easy part. There are materials that will disintegrate in sea water after a few weeks that
133 LTC8K6 : That's good, it will be checked out. That will help stop speculation and rumor.
134 Pihero : The system, basically, has two branches : ADIRU --> Pilots' instruments panels and ADIRU --> FMGS. There is no GPS input into the ADIRUs ( that
135 Kaiarahi : I know that. I would be surprised that 100+ hours post sim with a 3rd check pilot in the cockpit would be required for transitioning. Again, perhaps
136 Heinkel : I just read in a German news website (T-Online), that American lawyers "Ribbeck Law" have filed a "million $" law suit against Boeing and MH. Quote (
137 tiong : This finding not far from Maldives is very interesting. For the past few days I was contemplating there must be some clue mysteriously from the numbe
138 DTW2HYD : Excellent. If this went down because of mechanical issues, 9M-"MRO" also be a weird coincidence.
139 art : I don't think it is interesting - I see no evidence of attachment brackets.
140 jollo : An understatement if I ever heard one. But we've all read of desperate men doing crazy things as last-ditch attempts at saving their life. So, let's
141 uta999 : There is a chance someone ditched the plane on purpose, in one piece over the deepest part of the ocean. It would then sink to the bottom, leaving no
142 MarkAK : The Doppler Shift on a 1.6 GHz carrier due to 70 m/s velocity (about 155 MPH) of the satellite (due to its inclined orbit) is about 370 Hz or 0.23 ppm
143 spacecadet : Just out of curiosity, how hard is it to get one of these fire suppression bottles if someone wanted one? How hard would it be to make something that
144 Post contains links and images hivue : Sure that's not supposed to be lat = 70 and long = 3? Oops, that's right, it wouldn't match up then. As pointed out earlier they seem to have used us
145 Pihero : Reasonability check : How do you open a cargo door from inside ? Fair question as I've never thought of it.
146 rc135x : Simply for the sake of argument IF the crew could access the aft cargo compartment and open the door and jettison burning cargo pallets, then the dec
147 bikerthai : Not a cargo door expert, but have seen some structures of the door and the door area. If you have a fuselage with a large hole in it, the airplane lo
148 Post contains images gatorman96 : Spooky...How about this one? 7+7+7=21, plus 2, you get 23, then, if you add a 9, you get 239, which is the number of passengers/crew on this ill-fate
149 JAAlbert : I recall reading that after the Turkish Airline DC-10 crash - which resulted when a cargo door fell off causing an explosive decompression inside the
150 Post contains images JimJupiter : I'd sincerely suggest you read "Foucault's Pendulum" by Umberto Eco. You might like it as much as I do.
151 David L : The proposed redesign was to prevent a sudden pressure differential between the cabin and the cargo hold from distorting the structure. I can't see a
152 bikerthai : If this is true, then perhaps the doors are not flight load bearing. Maybe the pins are just for the pressure loads. bt
153 LXLucien : I saw this coming... pathetic! to make profit on the back of the victims and their relatives (and don't tell me they want justice to be served! they
154 dc9northwest : I got one too: 777-239-370=168, which may or may not be a completely random number.
155 art : It's a bit early, isn't it? Couldn't they at least have waited until the possible evidence of the aircraft coming down in the sea had been checked?[E
156 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster. I've been looking closely at the two Inmarsat possible flight tracks, the 400 knot and 450 knot versions.
157 Post contains links PanAmPaul : Not sure if this has been covered in the preceding threads... but aren't people running out of new superlatives for "best lead ever" at this point? (y
158 BruceSmith : Found a Boeing 777 flight crew operating manual on Google, from Qatar Airlines. The section on cargo doors states that the forward and aft doors can
159 alhena : The coriolis effect as you describe it would act if there were no atmosphere. However, the airplane moves through the air, which is also rotating. Ad
160 CaptainKramer : What about the possibility of Aerotoxic Syndrome? Yes another theory! To the best of my knowledge there has never been an Aerotoxic Syndrome Event inv
161 7BOEING7 : 777 will not stay wings level if you leave it to do what it wants -- it will roll right or left at a slow rate soon after release. Which is not power
162 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : Doesn't matter if the airplane is moving through the air: the Coriolis effect will still happen. E.g., it has to be taken into account in long range
163 WarrenPlatts : Isn't that exactly what the autotrim is designed to prevent? I don't doubt you sir, but is your answer a surmise, or is it based on actual piloting e
164 Post contains images AR385 : Does it say anything about getting from the main deck to the cargo bays in-flight? How about moving through the different containers in order to reac
165 7BOEING7 : I guess you do doubt me -- answer to your second question is yes.
166 Lindenwold : What would happen if both pilots became incapacitated and by some miracle a couple passengers survived. How would they get that cockpit door open?
167 Pihero : These are courses, not headings. I expected that. Thanks.
168 7BOEING7 : Anybody that has the emergency activation code can get in if the pilots are incapacitated.
169 flyingturtle : What's this code? One day or another, somebody of us needs to enter a cockpit. Seriously. David
170 lnglive1011yyz : I can probably guess the answer to my question is , but.. would the Flight Attendants have the emergency access code? 1011yyz
171 Post contains links WarrenPlatts : My apologies sir. I used to be a quartermaster in the Navy, and for us they were used interchangeably. cf. this dictionary definition of heading: htt
172 WarrenPlatts : No offense intended sir! But hey, if anyone with a second opinion wants to chime in, please feel free! In your opinion, 7BOEING7, what exactly would
173 andy33 : If you look up the accident reports on the Helios crash, where the pilots were indeed incapacitated, you'll see that the cabin crew did eventually get
174 Apprentice : [QUOTE] @apprentice, I'm not sure i understood your post - are you saying mh370 did not have these bottles installed, but may have been carrying them
175 Dufo : I will personally report to police anyone publicly discussing emergency procedures and debate regarding cockpit access codes.[Edited 2014-03-26 13:51:
176 AR385 : As long as they did not use the dead bolt that they have. Uh? What exactly do you mean?
177 LTC8K6 : So if the pilots pass out from illness, or fumes, or whatever, with the deadbolt in place, we've lost a plane full of people? No one can get in to re
178 David L : I'm pretty sure it was a rhetorical question.
179 AR385 : Yes you have. If you can break down the door, perhaps. Exactly, it´s just too bad. Have a read a the declarations the Captain of the Ethiopian unsch
180 hivue : You didn't have to account for current when determining exactly where the ship was going?
181 BruceSmith : Nothing in the manual at all about access from the cabin to the cargo bays, and all the photos I can find on google of the raw insides of a 777 cabin
182 Post contains images 7BOEING7 : I haven't tried it but the airplane would roll left or right until BAP (bank angle protection) at 35 degrees cut in and it would roll back to 30 degr
183 ual747den : I understand what you are saying and was very surprised to see people talking so freely about these security issues and wonder who is asking the ques
184 Pihero : Please check your references : AFAIK, there are eight fire extinguisher bottles, on a T7 : 2 for the engines 1 for the APU 5 for the cargo compartmen
185 flyingturtle : Not intended as A vs. B bashing or flamefest... but: Is this behavior a bug or a feature? David
186 WarrenPlatts : That's a good point. It's been a couple of decades. Yes, there is the compass heading which is where the ship aims, and then there is the course that
187 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : Thank you for the response sir. Maybe that explains some of the weird turns, if there was a fight going on in the cockpit or something.... Anyone els
188 hivue : I believe it's been mentioned in some previous part of this thread that the 777 FBW does not hold the current attitude when the yoke is centered whil
189 SimonDanger : That's funny...but about what percentage of any given T7 flight is actually done hands-on? On the one hand I would love to fly one of these aircraft
190 MD11Engineer : Actually in many countries the squibs fall under explosives legislation and one needs an explosive licence to handle them loose. Usually they are exe
191 rcair1 : So - can you try it on the next flight. "Center - B777 would like to make a few high rate 360 turns to evaluate how the aircraft is responding to the
192 jelliesR : A lithium battery fire is self-sustaining it cannot be extinguished with normal suppression systems. "The Ventura Aerospace aircraft fire suppression
193 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : Then it's really funny. I expected the 777 FBW logic to follow a straight trajectory. And at any rate, I expected any V-winged airplane... View Large
194 cougar15 : ... the first 0-45 seconds and the last 15-65 seconds - of each Flt - (and guys actually managing 65 seconds are VERY hands on... and rare in todays
195 7BOEING7 : Those days are behind me. Actually, the faster you go into it the faster it springs back towards 30 degrees. BAP is one of the many checks done on ev
196 zeke : Big aircraft can be flown in track or heading, in track mode, it maintains track. No need for the FMC to be employed. All you need to do is select TR
197 Lindenwold : CNN is reporting the 370's pinger batteries might not even be working. Something about the batteries not being stored properly. Honestly, batteries or
198 qualitydr : There must be good pictures (online or such) that can be shown (linked) that will illustrate this point fully for a T7. After that, then I would agre
199 Post contains images Starlionblue : The advantage is of course that you can cram in more seats by giving up some cargo space. If this is logical depends on route structure, markets serv
200 Post contains links capri : Talking about more spooky stuff check out lionel Messi his 370 goals boots, so where will he fit in all of this, they say he's not human anyway, that
201 Post contains images cougar15 : More Sharing Services [/quote] no disrespect mate, but is this really the ´level´ this discussion amongst Aviation Proffesionals is/should be turnin
202 777Jet : If true I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not expecting them to find the boxes in less time than it took to find the AF447 boxes and if they do I am not e
203 TheRedBAron : Seeing the kind of weather and the prevailing sea conditions on the alleged crash zone, I am guessing it will take years for the CVR and CDR to be fou
204 777Jet : If a large ship such as the HMAS Success had to depart the search area like it did a few days ago because of rough seas with waves of just up to 2 me
205 MSY-MSP : You are absolutely correct. That part of the worlds oceans is some of the worst in the world on a fairly regular basis. It has to do with the fact th
206 sipadan : USA today reporter on CNN's Erin Burnett: "The Malaysian investigation is now focused solely on the pilot, Captain Zaharie Ahmed Shaw". Of course, CNN
207 Post contains links NAV30 : Pretty comprehensive summary of the 'situation to date' (up to yesterday, anyway). Does imply (but not state) that the new-found 'debris' could well b
208 Gzed : People like to be right. It's human nature. Having read and analysed as much of the available evidence that I can get my hands on, I believe there wa
209 noflies : Don't forget that these organisations are in the business of making money, not necessarily reporting accurate and unbiased news. Controversy sells. K
210 Post contains links Starlionblue : Isn't 24/7 reporting grand? All this purely because they need viewers to stay tuned. A friend from Florida told me once that there was a hurricane pa
211 Apprentice : I believe qty of bottles for cargo hold depends of type and also is customized. I repeat, I'm talking out of memory. Lavatory bottles, 1 each, are ve
212 spacecadet : But it was usable. And in almost perfect condition, especially considering what it had been through. I'm not sure why you'd look at that and conclude
213 flyenthu : I watched what you are talking about and have been more or less watching CNN since this event unfolded. I disagree with you in that where is the hard
214 WarrenPlatts : A "zombie" flight is still not ruled out by the Inmarsat data IMHO....
215 Post contains images cbrboy : Ummm.... It's Captain Zaharie Ahmad Shah. I guess 'Shah' pronounced by a US Today reporter on CNN souds to an American pretty much like 'Shaw'.
216 Gzed : Taking the Inmarsat data alone, sure. But add in the military primary radar info and we have a pretty clear indication that the plane was being accur
217 Post contains links hoya : Based on revelations from the captain's friend, it seems like pilot suicide is a more likely scenario. The anonymous friend mentions that the pilot w
218 Post contains images mandala499 : LOL! Call it what you will! In this part of the world, that kind of payout is normal. It's not hush money, it's not calm them down, etc. The 8 digits
219 Gzed : That part of the "zombie flight" fits, but it almost certainly wasn't a zombie flight due to a fault with the aircraft, before overflying Malaysia. I
220 777Jet : Really? In that case you are suggesting that the FDR holds the key to the mystery because IMO the key to the mystery would be the conversation on the
221 Mir : Probably not too hard - you could probably pick up a used one from a maintenance shop. But good luck getting the markings on it that would identify i
222 hoya : The "zombie" flight would begin after all the maneuvers to go around Indonesia. It would start shortly after the final turn south, whenever the plane
223 packersfan : Actually I do agree with you but of course we would never know whether having an accessible cockpit door would stop any further pilot suicide attempt
224 Gzed : I only questioned your "zombie flight" comment originally because most of the zombie flight theories involve a fire on-board or a decompression incid
225 jelliesR : I assume you are thinking that he was wearing a cockpit oxygen mask the whole time? so that he could ensure nobody in the cabin came to after they pe
226 hotelbravo : Why not count the people who died on the ground on 9/11? If the 9/11 cockpits had been fortresses people on the ground may not have died.
227 B777fan : I always enjoy reading your posts. This one too, but to make this statement complete you have to include the almost 3000 people killed on the ground.
228 rfields5421 : While I agree in principle with your argument, you have to include the 2,606 people killed in New York City and the 125 people killed at the Pentagon
229 AR385 : I have so far refused to subscribe to any theory on the cause of the tragic ending of this flight. It is, however, becoming clearer and clearer to me
230 spacecadet : The CVR is almost never as important as the FDR. That's one of the reasons why the FDR records 25 hours and the CVR records 2. Even in this case, the
231 rfields5421 : While I mostly agree with you - AF447 is a flight where the FDR alone would not have 'solved' the case. The CVR was needed to make sense of the actio
232 prebennorholm : You might also make a five minutes phone call to a sonobuoy designer before you finalize design of your floating black box.
233 spacecadet : If the AF447 stall had stretched to 7 1/2 hours, having the last 2 hours of the CVR conversation would have been plenty.
234 7BOEING7 : The only "deadbolt" I know associated with the cockpit door is the one that locks it (electronically not manually). Every Boeing airplane built since
235 AR385 : It was mentioned by one of the 777 pilot-panelists on those CNN "Breaking News" show. I don´t remember the name of the guy. It was not Les Abend. Sa
236 MSY-MSP : Actually there may be some merit in this. Have two sets of black boxes. One set that floats and another that doesn't. Provides both redundancy and th
237 Post contains links jelliesR : Some input from a 777 check captain on such things as whether the plane could fly the known course by itself (no), what happens after the fuel runs ou
238 Dalavia : That is one of the reasons I am surprised that the focus has almost all been on the pilot rather than the First Officer, or (much less likely) a rogu
239 WingedMigrator : Not unlike AF447. There were numerous theories swirling about until the boxes were found two years later. I have little doubt that they'll find the b
240 7BOEING7 : Consider the source, a CNN talking head or the FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations). The airplane had a deadbolt in the door which was electronically
241 AR385 : I understand what you are saying, but I still don´t get it. Why was the Captain of that 767 from Ethiopian locked out by the first officer and was u
242 7BOEING7 : If the pilot in the cockpit doesn't want to let the pilot (or anybody else) outside the cockpit in, he just selects "Deny" and you can't get in even
243 CX Flyboy : There is a deadbolt. It is manual and nothing to do with the electronic keypad system. We use it in case of a failure with the normal locking system.
244 sipadan : the 'hard' evidence that you seek need not exist to put forth a plausible and provable accusation. Captain Shah committed this atrocity with painstak
245 Post contains links and images p51tang : http://twitter.com/RT_com/status/448463706418974720/photo/1 When I first saw this photo I thought what a wonderful tribute to the family's of Flight
246 AR385 : Thanks to the two of you. Very interesting and I´ve learned a lot. Glad to confirm I was not hearing things when I heard that pilot on CNN say "Manu
247 7BOEING7 : Do you use it all the time or just when the normal electronic lock is not operable -- it appears to be a no-go on the MEL. What kind of airplane are
248 CX Flyboy : Except you could spend the rest of the entire flight selecting DENY every time the correct code is entered, once every few seconds. Would make for a
249 TheRedBAron : In my humble opinion the simple fact that the captain was on reserve, makes his suicide very unlikely...I would first believe another factors or perso
250 7BOEING7 : Deny is good for some period of time -- might find it hard to get any sleep though.
251 SimonDanger : With all due respect, and I actually mean that, this is what I like to call worshiping at the Church of The Empirical Deity. While I fully support al
252 sipadan : what is the source of this? and do you mean on a reserve status as in not currently active flying with the airline? What would this have to do with a
253 AR385 : You can check on the past 45 threads, or better yet, on one of the excellent summaries provided by rcair1. It´s there.[Edited 2014-03-26 23:01:57]
254 jelliesR : Why? although he may not have known he was going to fly that day, it happened to coincide with a very disappointing court case *that he attended* and
255 sipadan : okay, but I don't see the relevance. What MIGHT be interesting is knowing when Captain Shah found out that he would be piloting this flight, although
256 mandala499 : With regards to: and and Please note what I said: I do not deny there are a total of 3000 or over killed... But I was specifically talking about the p
257 sipadan : just wondering what you are alluding to when you say this...I assume it is because he is the relative of a high ranking official in Malay govt, but a
258 Gzed : I agree. I don't see how him being on reserve makes it in any way less likely. If it was Capt Shah, its possible it was a spur-of-the-moment decision
259 oldas : Yes. Got your point "fortress and passengers" and I absolutely agree. It was made easier for those who like to stay in cockpit alone for what ever re
260 spacecadet : I'm not saying CVR's are never important or wouldn't be useful in this case. The main point I'm trying to make - and have tried to make in a few of t
261 dvautier : I heard this theory before and it may have been discussed on this thread so please be patient. The geostationary satellite detected receding pings and
262 chaseus1 : I'm not sure we should be discussing certain features of a cockpit door on here. If some bad guy gets in a cockpit and stabs one pilots while the othe
263 SimonDanger : Check out Thread 32. There's a fair amount of discussion on stealing an a/c there.
264 Starlionblue : It doesn't matter where you put it. You can't add a system that cannot be turned off. ADS-B already gives reporting every second. "On reserve" means
265 LandSweetLand : Do we know who the original pilot was going to be?
266 sipadan : provable facts about Captain Zaharie Ahmed Shah: 1) Erased 'something' on his flight simulator which was a home made simulator that included a 'motion
267 mandala499 : All I can say is that as of 14 March no further leaks on this issue have been made available nor will it be made available. Of course this can mean a
268 JimJupiter : But then you get on thin ice....:
269 theaviator380 : And does that rule out foul play or suicide attempt? Because if I read between the lines, I understood, he had not much time to prepare for this? Cor
270 andy33 : When people refer to Captain Shah as being "on reserve" I think there are language problems creeping in. It seems to mean different things in differe
271 Dalavia : I appreciate your comments, and now I am even more intrigued. But maybe that is just my nature.
272 Post contains images flyingturtle : I may be missing an important point... but who builds a plane that does not revert back into a stable wings level attitude? And who certifies such an
273 liquidair : thats a solid point, but I'd like to know (because i don't know, not being pedantic) how many flights were saved by having a 'less' secure cockpit?
274 Post contains images p51tang : For the love of God! - Prior to 9/11 I could kick the door of the Cockpit open using all of my Jet Li skills and sort the situation out. - Post 9/11
275 Post contains links Phen : This may have been posted already, apologies if so but I did not see it here: "Thai satellite spots '300 floating objects' in Malaysian plane search"
276 Starlionblue : It does not rule out foul play. If we postulate that the Captain did indeed commandeer the aircraft, something we have no evidence for, it just means
277 LandSweetLand : Prior to 9/11 you could pretty much get in by asking nicely to see how the pilots fly the plane (at least if you were a child).
278 sipadan : not so factual stuff about Captain Shah - agreed, and...if he was called in on short notice that perhaps would have been most unfortunate as he was fr
279 David L : Due to the airframe and control surfaces not being exactly symmetrical and to cross-winds and turbulence, the aerodynamic forces are not exactly symm
280 Post contains links WarrenPlatts : But shouldn't the same principle apply--that once the pilot commands the plane to do something, no further inputs are required--when the pilot points
281 nupogodi : Control stick? They are not talking about a 777.
282 Post contains images Starlionblue : In any conventional plane you constantly have to make corrections when hand flying, even when straight and level. It's not a fight. It's hand flying.
283 theaviator380 : I was viewing CNN news this morning and there was a prof. from some Australian university expert in Oceanographic study. He mentioned plane must have
284 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : The chapter was largely about FBW fighter jets, but the 777 was also discussed. So I guess it's an open question whether the 777 is really rock stead
285 nupogodi : I'm sorry I'm not able to download the PDF as my primary internet connection is down and I'm on 3G. But generally the stability discussion w.r.t. FBW
286 Post contains images mandala499 : The source has stopped providing information and said that it is becoming too risky to let info out on this particular part of whatever is going on o
287 7BOEING7 : Except for newer FBW airplanes every other airplane ever built needs a pilot to keep it right side up or to watch the autopilot keep it right side up
288 Post contains links WarrenPlatts : Then since the 777 is inherently stable, shouldn't the autotrim be even more rock steady when the pilot takes his or her hands off the controls than
289 Post contains links wilcal : Saw this on Reddit this morning. Malaysian Government holding sealed evidence? http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-...evidence-mh370-cannot-be-made-pu
290 PW100 : While I don't disagree with your position, and agree that paranoia is taken over, your assumptions and conclusions are a little too simple. Main prob
291 Post contains links SA7700 : Due to its length this thread will be locked down for additional contributions. All posts added after the thread lock will be removed for housekeeping
292 Post contains links airmagnac : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_dynamic_modes The geometric and aerodynamic parameters driving these dynamic modes can have opposing effects on
293 Post contains images mandala499 : Of course it is... and it was deliberate to provoke some thinking. Hence why it was oversimplified. I don't think we need to go back to what it was l
294 B777fan : Actually me. Slight diversion before back to this thread. ****** The airplane I built for myself is mostly neutrally stable - meaning - if you induce
295 lazybones : Agreed Scary end, but still doesn't mean the cause was malicious. Clearly the pilots must have command the plane off course. But this is still for an
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