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Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?  
User currently offlinenoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1845 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11461 times:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/25...ommittee-debates-airport-expansion

Found this a pretty interesting development!

112 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3687 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11265 times:

A great development I agree, although I guess I am not really aligned with this line here from the article:

Just before the failed vote, Ford complained bitterly about the lack of will to fast-track the expansion.

“We can get this done if it’s the will of council,” Ford says. “Unfortunately, we don’t have that will today.”


Is that, ummmm, the Canadian version of "bitterness" because I'm failing to see it in that that line?
(assuming the line is the supposed bitterness the article refers to, because it isn't...)



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1223 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 11146 times:

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 1):
Is that, ummmm, the Canadian version of "bitterness" because I'm failing to see it in that that line?

What the article didn't say was that the mayor yelled this statement at the journalists, then tackled a councilman. (kidding, of course...at least I hope so, since he's already done both of those things)

I think this is great news for Porter and for the city. Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YTZ and YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR. I'm glad to see they are open to the expansion in the interest of business and improved infrastructure, unlike London with LHR's badly needed expansion. I'm sure residents in the affected areas aren't happy, but I'd have to assume that a CS100 on a steep approach would be preferable to a Q400. Any noise impact should definitely be outweighed by the benefit to the city by allowing larger jet aircraft that comply with the noise restrictions.


User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3135 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 10729 times:

Here is the writeup from the Toronto Globe & Mail. It looks like both mayoral candidates are against the idea of expansion.

Toronto To Allow Talks On Expansion Of Billy Bishop Airport

"Two leading mayoral candidates have already come out against the proposal. John Tory called for a fast deferral, while Olivia Chow pressed for a prompt rejection. And a group of councillors is expected to try to impose a ban on jets at council, or “receive” the report – which would put the whole matter on the shelf."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...airport-expansion/article17676423/


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10489 times:

I was one of about 120 Torontonians who gave a deputation yesterday. I argued (briefly, with my 3 minute slot) strongly in favour of the runway extension and the allowance of the CS-100.

The executive committee (12 of the 45-member council) voted last night in favour of the proposals by 11-1. Just 12 of the remaining 33 votes are needed to pass. Fingers crossed.

As a resident of Harbourfront (adjacent to YTZ) and an avid sailboat racer, I can vouch that there are absolutely no noise issues nor threats to the Waterfront by the Porter proposals.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3569 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10429 times:

As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.


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User currently offlinecloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 10384 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Hardly. Most people in this area (New England) pretty much avoid going to Canada because it costs so much to get there. Driving takes too long and is a pain in the winter, and flights used to be way overpriced. Now at least you can afford to fly to Toronto, and fares to Montreal have dropped dramatically as well. Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.



"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26718 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (8 months 1 week ago) and read 10335 times:

Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.


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User currently offlinejalarner From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 months 1 week ago) and read 10332 times:

Edits got messed up a bit  Sad
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown.

All depends where you live. Friend of mine hopes on the streetcar and is there in a few mintes. I live in Milton, and before that Mississauga...I could be at Pearson in 10 minutes unless it is rush hour. Add $50-70 cab ride each way and I bet the downtown people would fly for a little more money rather than for a cab.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ

Would that not be a positive for the expansion, showing economic growth and giving back, as opposed to just taking? Of course this would be a slow build as the demand increases.

Overall I am all for the expansion....but as I mentioned I do not live very close to the airport.

[Edited 2014-03-26 10:37:23]


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User currently onlinerampbro From Canada, joined Nov 2012, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10105 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown.

It certainly is worth the money, as Porter has proven through their expansion over the last decade. Toronto (especially the downtown area) is only getting wealthier, and the transfer to Pearson is only getting more time consuming and frustrating.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Not sure. With an airline like Porter that has an on-board service, there is no need to rely on concourse food and bev. As well, taxi times at Pearson during peak hours can get ridiculous. Add a need to de-ice and there's a 40 minute delay easy. Keep in mind that downtown Toronto is right there - an hour connection time at YTZ would be more than enough to get over to the Toronto 'mainland' and grab a bit. You could have decent visit to the HHOF with a 90 minute cnx.

I think its worth noting that once upon a time a bunch of NIMBYs didn't want a great bloody condo forest built on Toronto's harbour front. Now, many of the residents of those once-maligned buildings are perpetrating the same flawed concept.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.

Some serious, honest leadership and vision could go a long way, but sadly Ford has blown his chance(s) to provide this. This is not an unimportant project for the city, and failure to move forwards on this development due to political paralysis does not look good. Ford focussed too much on sports as a youth, and now everything is a football to him.

Quoting jalarner (Reply 8):
Would that not be a positive for the expansion, showing economic growth and giving back, as opposed to just taking?

Porter does not 'just take' - it delivers a critical service to major generators of value in Toronto, the importance of which cannot be understated. Primary effects aside, Porter supports all kinds of jobs in Toronto by being a major purchaser of Q400 aircraft.


User currently offlinejalarner From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10029 times:

Quoting rampbro (Reply 9):
Porter does not 'just take' - it delivers a critical service to major generators of value in Toronto, the importance of which cannot be understated. Primary effects aside, Porter supports all kinds of jobs in Toronto by being a major purchaser of Q400 aircraft.

I should have been more clear on that. From all the nay-sayers it looks like take. A friend of mine works in Downsview. He used to be on the -8 line but now builds Globals.



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User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9935 times:

The Port Authority, a key player - obviously, is not totally onboard...

Port Authority doesn’t want ‘mini-Pearson,’ meeting on island airport hears

Quote:
“We have a very fine airport — Pearson airport. What we do have is a magnificent regional airport facility on the lake,” Wilson said (Port Authority CEO).

That is just one of the weakness in Porter's plan.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1446 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

I don't see the issue with YTZ expanding for jet service. I don't know why some waterfront residents complain about the air traffic there (noise pollution), when the freeway is by far the loudest thing around. I have a friend who lives on the waterfront and all I can hear is traffic, sirens, etc. I can barely hear the Q400 coming in, and even that, only if I pay attention to it. I doubt an CS100 would be much louder. Hell, helicopter traffic and boat traffic is louder than that.

On a side, note, shame on Toronto and whoever ran that city for the past X years for not connecting the city with proper rail to YYZ... but someone seems to have a huge interest in the astronomical taxi prices from YYZ...



Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 12):
I don't know why some waterfront residents complain about the air traffic there (noise pollution)

Don't think for a minute that waterfront residents don't complain about vehicle noise... there just isn't anything they can do about it. On the other hand, they can do something about airport noise.

And while the noise issue is valid for some people others clearly use it as a negative talking point even though it doesn't necessarily affect them all that deleteriously. But aircraft noise is not the only noise nor issue.

Putting the aircraft noise issue to the side, there are other "big" issues.

One is infrastructure costs. Not just to expand the runway at both ends but, far more critical from the public's perspective, are the "mainland" infrastructure costs which is reported to be $300 million. The source and spending of tax dollars, and whether that is the best cost/benefit spending of tax dollars, has to be resolved first.

Second is "mainland" vehicle congestion (and pollution and noise). Porter's conditional order & options for the CS100 eventually could replace the current Q400 fleet. That could represent an increase in pax numbers of close to 60%. So there is the legitimate opposition to the increase in traffic, noise and pollution on the "mainland side" that increased aircraft capacity represents.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently onlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8577 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 13):
Second is "mainland" vehicle congestion (and pollution and noise). Porter's conditional order & options for the CS100 eventually could replace the current Q400 fleet

I dont see PD replacing the Q400 with the CS100. They will compliment each other

Quoting vio (Reply 12):
On a side, note, shame on Toronto and whoever ran that city for the past X years for not connecting the city with proper rail to YYZ... but someone seems to have a huge interest in the astronomical taxi prices from YYZ..

For a modern city like Toronto i think their transit system is sub par. With only 4 subway lines and commuter lines that run only during rush hour i think can do much better. The rail ink between union and pearson should have been done years ago.


Who owns the airport? I know the TPA operates it but was unsure it they were the actual owners.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8313 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
I dont see PD replacing the Q400 with the CS100.

The airport is slot restricted. Going to a larger aircraft is the only way to increase pax numbers. As it is, because of the short runway, the Q400 can only be configured at 70 pax max.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
Who owns the airport? I know the TPA operates it but was unsure it they were the actual owners.

Yes, the TPA owns the airport.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineezalpha From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8254 times:
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Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Why be pessimistic? Be skeptical if you like, but time will tell. I don't agree with your assertion that people don't want an option for longer range flights. I live in Oshawa. Fact, I can leave my car at home and use public transit to get to YTZ. Can't do that from YYZ. I've flown to BOS and MDW on Porter and it was a pleasure. They know how to treat customers. I wouldn't consider doing that from Pearson. Long drive (I do it every day!), parking cost that borders on extortion and standing in endless lines, etc, etc.. Porter to Florida or the west coast can't come soon enough.


User currently offlinekl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8074 times:

AC will do everything in their power to make sure this doesn't go through.

KL692



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YTZ and YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR.

It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ and may order a few to launch YTZ.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses

There are more and more young people living in the downtown core and if they offer flight to Florida, LAS, YVR and even Cuba or Mexico then they can get a market for tourism. I am not sure how high the yields will be however.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.

He represents residents of the cities who are no where near the airport so they can support the initiative without dealing with the consequences. Rob Ford may be the mayor of the city but he really has quite a bit of contempt for those who live downtown.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
For a modern city like Toronto i think their transit system is sub par. With only 4 subway lines and commuter lines that run only during rush hour i think can do much better. The rail ink between union and pearson should have been done years ago.

The rail link to YYZ should be complete for the Pan-Am games next year and yes the transit system is sub par and that is the biggest issue that will decide the municipal election in October.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 6):
Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.

Calvin Rovinescu wrote an op-ed in the Toronto Star and welcomes PD to compete with AC at YYZ. Also US airlines are free to compete with AC at YYZ whenever they feel and if they feel that AC has too much control then by all means compete with them. We Canadians would welcome it!!



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7987 times:

Quoting ezalpha (Reply 16):
Can't do that from YYZ.

I don't understand what you mean you can't take public transit to YYZ. The TTC serves the airport 24 hours a day. Yes it is not as convenient but they will have a direct rail link eventually, maybe.

I doubt that it will get passed through Toronto city council. They hate progress and don't want people coming to the downtown easily. Take the Gardiner for example as it is in desperate need of upgrading and expansion to alleviate the congestion that occurs every day between the hours of 4 am to about 9 pm during the week and then it is chaos on the weekends as that is when they either have it closed for something stupid or construction.

The other thing is that the residents that don't want the airport to be open at all are pretty powerful in terms of political clout on the council.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7787 times:

Quoting rampbro (Reply 9):
Some serious, honest leadership and vision could go a long way, but sadly Ford has blown his chance(s) to provide this.

It certainly didn't help Porter that Deluce went to see Ford privately without registering as a lobbyist before he announced his plans publicly. Secondly, because Deluce and other family members contributed to Ford's mayoral campaign, Ford's pushing for approval for Porter's plans obviously further taints the process.

Quoting ezalpha (Reply 16):
Porter to Florida or the west coast can't come soon enough.

As the TPA CEO said: “We have a very fine airport — Pearson airport. What we do have is a magnificent regional airport facility on the lake,” Wilson said .

There is nothing "regional" about Florida or the west coast.  
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
if they offer flight to Florida, LAS, YVR and even Cuba or Mexico then they can get a market for tourism. I am not sure how high the yields will be however.

Of course, the principle rationale for the island airport disappears... convenient regional flights to Ottawa, Montreal, etc., where the time savings are significant compared to hiking out to YYZ. Flying to Florida or the west coast the time saving as a % of the total travel time becomes marginal... even less so if when the Pan-Am rail link to YYZ becomes operational.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineKLSMB From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7601 times:

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 6):
Hardly. Most people in this area (New England) pretty much avoid going to Canada because it costs so much to get there. Driving takes too long and is a pain in the winter, and flights used to be way overpriced. Now at least you can afford to fly to Toronto, and fares to Montreal have dropped dramatically as well. Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.

Flight costs at all Canadian airports are overpriced because of Federal Government fees and regulations. This has been an issue as long as I can remember, and it's the only reason why flights from US airports often cost so much less. To solve this problem, there needs to be some dramatic changes made at the federal level, which I can't see happening anytime soon.

Your comment about Air Canada having too much control over YYZ is nonsense. Yes, Air Canada uses YYZ as it's primary hub and that surely gives them some bargaining power with the Greater Toronto Airports Authority. However, there are over 75 other airlines at Pearson and many of them are competing directly with Air Canada. This includes competition on almost all domestic routes within Canada, as well as many transborder and international routes, for example LHR, HKG, PEK, CDG, LAX, JFK, LGA, MIA, ORD, IAH, DTW and DFW to name just a few. If you look at the Toronto Pearson website, you'll see that there are routes operated by many airlines to destinations around the world that are not offered by Air Canada at all.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7577 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 20):
Of course, the principle rationale for the island airport disappears... convenient regional flights to Ottawa, Montreal, etc., where the time savings are significant compared to hiking out to YYZ. Flying to Florida or the west coast the time saving as a % of the total travel time becomes marginal... even less so if when the Pan-Am rail link to YYZ becomes operational.

They have that already with their current fleet.

Porter absolutely wants in the want in on those intercontinental markets as well and that is exactly how they have been marketing their expansion if the runway in indeed extended.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7492 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
They have that already with their current fleet.

Yes, that is what I've said.  
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
Porter absolutely wants in the want in on those intercontinental markets as well and that is exactly how they have been marketing their expansion if the runway in indeed extended.

Yes, because they absolutely need those markets... but as the TPA CEO says - those markets are Pearson's raison d'etre.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7440 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR.

It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ.

Where will the slots come from for additional AC and new WS and US carrier services? They could only add service if PD cuts their flights. I can't see PD investing in a fleet of new jets if they have to reduce the number of flights. High frequency is a major advantage of PD's current service on their primary routes.

[Edited 2014-03-26 17:40:17]

25 planemaker : If jets are allowed at the island, the slot issues, which PD now dominate, will become a hot issue. Previously, there had been little interest by AC
26 yyz717 : Slots are allocated by the Toronto Port Authority. They can easily issue/release more slots.
27 beatyair : The expansion of the Toronto island airport is good news. But I still do not understand why the airport would extend the runway to both the east and t
28 infiniti329 : Slots were there. Only AC and PD applied for them. You snooze you loose. I have read TPA has no intention increasing the number of slots they have no
29 atcsundevil : Which is exactly what needs to happen to make this whole thing work. Porter has had amazing success at YTZ and has been the driving force behind the
30 brilondon : That is not entirely true. The total cost is still quite competitive. I would use YYZ over JFK any day of the week and twice on weekends to compare a
31 yyz717 : TPA has the authority to allocate new slots anytime. They have publicly promised not to do so anytime soon, but in the interests of business developm
32 planemaker : Not so. Not so. The elephant in the room is that Porter is between a rock and a hard place... and that is what is driving the whole thrust for expans
33 noise : Care to explain? What rock and what hard place?
34 yyz717 : On what possible basis is PD between a rock and a hard place? PD is a privately held co and does not release financials, but it has a group of privat
35 planemaker : Porter has already made two failed attempts to go public, the first in 2010. The reason they require to go public is because that is how the original
36 atcsundevil : I agree. Porter is in one hell of a dilemma, because they need to grow. For them to grow, the airport needs to expand, which opens the door to other
37 Viscount724 : But how many additional flights can YTZ handle considering the size of the terminal and related facilities? I've used YTZ a few times and it doesn't
38 Post contains links and images planemaker : Even with light competition (they have a virtual monopoly on the island), ROI has been poor. Since the day they started Porter has been racing the cl
39 noise : Why does porter have to keep YTZ as their hub? Worst case scenario, can't they simply start focusing on YYZ or YOW in the event the YTZ expansion prop
40 yyz717 : Porter has already made REFUNDABLE deposits on the CS-100. The non-refundable deposits begin in April. Do you think the current investors would have
41 planemaker : Because they have a virtual monopoly on the island. If they move to Pearson they are up against not just Cdn carriers but American as well. If they h
42 infiniti329 : They should. PD invested in the airport when no one else would. When it was a ugly duckling no one wanted any part of her but now she was swan everyo
43 atcsundevil : I know they've been trying for a while, but they really needed to get their IPO done a couple of years ago. They would have been so much better posit
44 noise : PD can easily start focusing on airports other than YTZ, such as YOW. I don't know what the obsession is with having YTZ their sole hub.
45 longhauler : PD's success is the location of YTZ with reference to Canada's largest city. Period. Yes, they have good service, cool ads, free beer, etc ... but th
46 yyz717 : Exactly. Or YHZ. As they are already doing on a limited basis. Not "period", but primarily. PD moved into the YOW/YUL-YHZ markets after the Canjet wi
47 cloudboy : and yet no one can point to a real example of that. I beg to differ - I think Porter's success, at least in terms of their Us service - is precisely
48 longhauler : I can think of no North American carrier that was successful using "extra" service as a tool. And there have been many ... all First Class or upgraded
49 Post contains images planemaker : If Air Canada had imagined that they could establish a monopoly on a public airport they would have too. Yes, PD has invested some money but not near
50 yyz717 : Not even close. The Porter bus or streetcar from Union to YTZ is 5-10 minutes, and its only a 20 minute walk. The rail link will simply displace the
51 infiniti329 : Really... AC (via Air Ontario/Jazz) was there since 1990.. 16 years before Porter was born. They had prime opportunity if they really wanted to.
52 Post contains links planemaker : Google maps No traffic conditions: Car - 26 to 28 minutes Transit - 23 to 31 minutes Walk - 40 to 46 minutes Even without the rail link (which will b
53 infiniti329 : The numbers you are pulling up are for "regualr transit" yyz717 is referring to the express bus service which goes directly from union station to ytz
54 cloudboy : And what airlines would that be? I can only think of one airline that had anything more than a few city pairs that offered a premium economy type of
55 planemaker : First, he is not right. He did not say 10-20 minutes. He said 5-10 minutes... so you are off by 100% in transposing his numbers. Second. A taxi/car i
56 ytz : UPE link isn't going to do much to dent Porter. Not at the prices that UPE plans to charge. Nobody is going to pay $40-$50 (roundtrip) to get to YYZ f
57 longhauler : The most obvious would be Astoria Airlines, with their all Business configuration flying between YYZ and YUL. Another good example would be Midwest E
58 ytz : Construction in the core is slowing things down at the moment. They'll be done this summer. I've taken the bus from Union several times. Travel times
59 longhauler : Yes, if you take public transit, and if you feel the need to go through Union Station. For those areas though, the TTC offers express buses from vari
60 planemaker : Even with NO traffic the travel time is 26 mins. It will also stop at Bloor. It will but it really doesn't matter since with Porter's low LFs there i
61 yhu : Incorrect. Google Maps i taking into account waiting for the ferry and then taking the ferry. Enter a search for Union to 1 Eireann Quay, Toronto, ON
62 ytz : Not my experience. Or that of several others here. But whatever. The shuttle bus is convenient. It doesn't stop anywhere else. And it's free. UPE's p
63 planemaker : Obviously it isn't given Porter's low LFs. And yet Porter is still getting low LFs. But only for a select group of city-pairs and mainly because of t
64 timboflier215 : Personally, I wish Porter all the best and hope they are able to start flying the CSeries from YTZ soon. I just don't get why, on a site for so-calle
65 planemaker : No such thing. It is simply stating the realities of Porter's problems. Pretending that they don't exist will will not make them go away.
66 threepoint : No way - even the full 90 minutes inside the HHOF will barely whet the appetite. I'm not very familiar with Toronto at all, but have observed the sam
67 Post contains images planemaker : An understatement. Not relying. Another "local resident" said that it takes 15-25 minutes, 2.5 to 3 times longer than your reference, and which is mu
68 Viscount724 : More like 10 minutes in my experience (using the shuttle bus). Probably more during rush hours, but 26 minutes sounds much too long.
69 bingo1 : This thread is turning into a joke. Two of the most prolific posters are an AC employee and a poster who makes a living bashing the C-series. So obvio
70 Post contains images planemaker : This has always been about getting to YTZ... not to the mainland side of the ferry as you can't do anything from that side. And that is why the origi
71 yyz717 : It's reality. This is my hood and I can vouch for it. More anecdotal evidence.... Do you have a source for the low LF's? Porter has not released LF i
72 yhu : As someone who takes the shuttle on almost a daily basis, I can confirm it's about an 8-12 minute ride even during rush hour.
73 cloudboy : So you think they went through the whole design and construction process of a terminal based purely on their current operations and not think about t
74 yyztpa : Could it be their plan to buy the C-Series doesn't meet with everyone's favor?
75 planemaker : You cannot get from Union Station to the YTZ airport terminal in 5-10 minutes as you continue to claim. The ferry is every 15 minutes... so right the
76 Post contains images longhauler : But if no one "wanted" the premium part of their service, as that passenger disappeared, then what really happened first? You have to assume, if they
77 Post contains links Viscount724 : The new pedestrian tunnel due to be completed late this year will eliminate the wait for the ferry. http://www.bbtcatunnelproject.ca/ Video re constr
78 Post contains images yyz717 : Well, I can. So can YHU and Viscount 724. And thousands of others. Daily. The same comment would apply to AC. Robert Milton was an arrogant little pr
79 YYZatcboy : You see how you just contradicted yourself right?
80 yyz717 : Nope. Year old LF stats provide no firm information about even year old profitability, let alone current profitability. Nothing has ever been release
81 planemaker : No one said 5 minutes as you claim... which is simply impossible. You cannot pretend that the ferry isn't there and that it doesn't sails only every
82 YYZatcboy : Reply 71 you say that PD has not released info publicly since March 2013, implying (as we all know they were) that they were releasing the data befor
83 longhauler : Yes, and BA, QF, SQ, etc etc etc ... but this thread isn't about them. I don't disagree, but again ... we are not talking about them! Besides .... De
84 ElPistolero : Been watching this thread with not a little amusement, but a bit struck by how accusations are being treated as fact without any source whatsoever. Co
85 yyz717 : PD is doing worse than what? A downward trend based on what? Do you know anything about how private businesses are run when seed capital is provided
86 Post contains images longhauler : Because you asked about the negativity toward Porter, and I answered with my own opinion. It's not up for discussion, it's my own opinion. And ... fo
87 planemaker : I linked to the news articles. As pointed out 4 or 5 times ... wrong thread. AC has never turned a public airport into a monopoly. Deluce kicked them
88 ElPistolero : I see. Well, just to be clear, I really only objected to the swear word you used there. That's a very low level of name-calling which really shouldn'
89 longhauler : I shall say again for the last time. I don't disagree, but that is not the topic of discussion. A member on here who I respect asked why he was readi
90 ElPistolero : My criteria is simple enough. If you can't use a word in your work place, it is inappropriate in any civilized debate. I know that if I were to call
91 Post contains images planemaker : AC and WestJet know close enough! Of course he never releases it now because its lousy. As soon as soon as he had several months of declining LFs and
92 longhauler : Fine ... but that is not what I was discussing. I give up.
93 ElPistolero : What good is the IPO if the airline is destined to fail anyway? It still amounts to taking a significant risk - and being investigated if the whole t
94 cloudboy : What about connecting traffic? Now that prices are down to a more reasonable level, if Porter starts offering connecting flights to US passengers migh
95 brilondon : I have to ask where do you fly to from YTZ? I would concur that flying from YYZ is where most of the people from Toronto choose to fly from because b
96 planemaker : That is why they need the jets. Without the jets... no IPO. Apart from the intial "seed" investment when PD was started, none of the investors have i
97 ElPistolero : I think we can take it for granted on this thread that any comparison between Toronto Island and Pearson is limited only to those routes that are ser
98 Post contains links jalarner : http://www.upexpress.com/en/project/stations.aspx Different stations.
99 planemaker : I repeat because I thought you were ignoring my point but now I understand that you don't comprehend. You do not need to spend millions to try to iss
100 ElPistolero : Its true. I have a very hard time comprehending spin-riddled stories riddled with inconsistencies. Indeed. But you do need to spend millions to buy n
101 ytz : I have taken Porter to YOW, YUL and BOS. What's your point? YTZ is a regional airport. Porter is a regional airport. If you are flying to any of thei
102 ytz : The whole AC getting kicked out business.... Like EP said, "kicked out" is a stretch at best. They had no entitlement to stay beyond their lease. But
103 radiopolitic : Based on the all the amendments that were passed on top of the staff report today at council - I doubt we will be seeing jets or airport expansion any
104 Post contains images planemaker : Not only did I never say that they have "no" intention of buying aircraft but you've demonstrating that you have never read an IPO's pages of standar
105 Bravo1Six : Ah, the "taxpayers are funding XYZ airline" argument. Well, EDC can only finance a maximum of 85 percent, so at least 15 percent (and likely more) nee
106 ElPistolero : Right. So they will buy the jets if they can and this might well prove to be a gamechanger, but you don't want to entertain that thought because anot
107 Bravo1Six : No, was referring to the mock outrage of an airline receiving taxpayer support. Incidentally, EDC actually makes money for the Canadian taxpayers, and
108 N1120A : That is completely incorrect. It is due to airlines pricing differently. That is completely and totally wrong. Know what the difference in the tax po
109 drgmobile : This has been studied extensively. While there is a difference in the base fare, government policy related fees and taxes contribute about 40 percent
110 drgmobile : Lots of people already use Porter to connect. I know lots of people in Ottawa who use it to get to Chicago or New York.
111 cloudboy : But, I am thinking there might be a market for people from BOS or even NYC or Chicago who would connect through Toronto on Porter on their way down to
112 drgmobile : That's not legal. Under the current Canada-U.S. bilateral it's considered cabotage. Someone could buy back to back tickets but that would hardly be e
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