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Pilots' Unions At Odds In American Airlines Merger  
User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 518 posts, RR: 18
Posted (6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

So says the headline to this post:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-T...t-Odds-in-American-Airlines-Merger

Sounds as if APA and USAPA cannot agree on seniority issues at the merged carrier. Since these flight crew integration issues were never settled at US/HP, one wonders if they'll ever get settled at US/AA?

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777Jet From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 1817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6093 times:

What a surprise to see the headline "Pilots' Unions At Odds In Merger"...  


DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788,306,320,321,332/3,346,388
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

Dallas Morning News article:

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...airlines-us-airways-become-one.ece



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5942 times:

The US East pilots are afraid that APA will do to them what they have done, and intend to do again, to the US West pilots. USAPA has had a huge problem with ethics over their history.

User currently offlinepsa188 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 518 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5912 times:

So, where are the US West pilots in this dispute? And, did they ever resolve the HP/US issues. And if not, why didn't Dougie Parker see this coming a mile away?

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5788 times:

Quoting psa188 (Reply 7):
So, where are the US West pilots in this dispute?

I was wondering the same thing. As a group, can they (HP Pilots) break off from USAPA and just sign with APA?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19738 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5766 times:

Can you name me a merger where the pilots unions didn't have issues?

User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5691 times:

NOW we have a topic a.nets will like!
the ones about smooth intergration and AA making big profits is SO boring

  

AA ORD


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3295 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5614 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 9):
I was wondering the same thing. As a group, can they (HP Pilots) break off from USAPA and just sign with APA?

No, there will not be two unions on the property. Eventually there will be a representation vote. USAPA was formed by the former East group, who did not like the results of the seniority agreement they had agreed to as ALPA members. By forming another union they basically said "we never agreed to this". They had the majority of votes in the combined HP/US pilot group, so the HP pilots has no choice but the join USAPA. The west pilots probably won't need much motivation to join with the APA members in a representation vote. But it won't solve the seniority integration issue.

Quoting psa188 (Reply 7):
And if not, why didn't Dougie Parker see this coming a mile away?

I'm sure he did too. And as others have said, he doesn't care. As long as they are fighting each other, they can't be unified in order to get the contract they want. Being able to whipsaw each group against the other keeps costs down. "Who wants the shiny new plane? Who's contract is cheaper? You get the shiny new plane. Good pilot."

I would have to imagine the legacy AA pilots are very leery of making any kind of deal with the East pilots. They've shown that they will reject and agreement if it doesn't come out their way. Why would now be any different? Might be easier to eventually merge AA and the West, and do any future hiring on that side. Fence off the old East pilots, and shrink that airline as they all retire. Kinda like how WN is "retiring" AirTran.


User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5556 times:

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
Sounds as if APA and USAPA cannot agree on seniority issues at the merged carrier. Since these flight crew integration issues were never settled at US/HP, one wonders if they'll ever get settled at US/AA?

Well here's the surprise of the century! Let's hope both sides can work constructively towards an agreement. After all, an arbitrators ruling isn't always the best outcome. Just ask the US guys as well as Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots!


User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5557 times:

How is this different from the binding arbitration that originally happened between the HP and US pilot groups? The US pilots simply ignored it, and now more than eight years later, they still aren't combined.

HAL

[Edited 2014-03-27 00:41:34 by SA7700]


One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5597 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5534 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 16):
How is this different from the binding arbitration that originally happened between the HP and US pilot groups?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that USAPA went their separate way before McCaskill-Bond came into force?



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently onlineTW870 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5481 times:
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Quoting HAL (Reply 16):
How is this different from the binding arbitration that originally happened between the HP and US pilot groups? The US pilots simply ignored it, and now more than eight years later, they still aren't combined.

Because of McCaskill-Bond, which passed in 2008. It is now federal law that both unionized groups submit to binding arbitration if they cannot voluntarily agree on a "fair and equitable" integration process. McCaskill-Bond ultimately re-established the old Sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions that the CAB used to enforce during regulation.

http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCask...xplanation%20FINAL%20for%20WEB.pdf

It is true that in the 1980s, parties to binding arbitration began violating binding decisions. Management - and not unions - started that trend (if I recall correctly the case was at Maine Central Railroad). The difference here is that the parties would also be violating federal aviation regulation. From my understanding of the law, if the new union fails to observe the arbitration, then both the grieved pilot and the airline can sue the violating union for damages. Any lawyers on here care to clarify?


User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5481 times:

I think it would be interesting to have these pilots talk to career veterans from BN EA PA on and on and on. Maybe they could
possibly work together and move on. What a shame, what a pity.


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2104 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 months 1 day ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 16):
How is this different from the binding arbitration that originally happened between the HP and US pilot groups? The US pilots simply ignored it, and now more than eight years later, they still aren't combined.

The only way that USAPA has been able to avoid implementing the Nicolau award is by not signing a new contract. They have continued to work under a bankruptcy era contract while the company has made record profits rather than risk not being able to take advantage of the West work group. The new MOU that USAPA signed agreed that the new contract will come before the seniority integration, that will prevent them from playing the same ratification game. Long before then, APA will become the sole bargaining agent and USAPA will go away.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 16):

US East pilots are also out numbered and out gunned by AA this time around. They had numbers on the West for the ALPA booting/USAPA formation that they won't really have this time. AA is the larger group. My take through mergers is the larger group wins. It doesn't mean they're right, just winning.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9449 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (6 months 21 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 19):

  oh goodness, let's calm down just a little bit.
First, you and anyone else here would be fighting just as hard(unless you hate money and having a better QOL)
Second, this shouldn't even come remotely close to bringing the airline down.


Not only that but it will keep the unions away from a better contract when that time comes.
And finally, I bet most employees of famous strikes (EA,NW etc) don't regret it one bit. Just FWIW.

Exactly. Overall it is better for the company if the pilot groups are one, but Doug has proved he can operate the airline without that.

Having said that, Delta and United had(has for other UA unions) issues also. It will be worked out, IMO, well before binding arbitration

[Edited 2014-03-27 00:47:04 by SA7700]


yep.
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13141 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (6 months 18 hours ago) and read 4359 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Can you name me a merger where the pilots unions didn't have issues?

   Pilots unions are rather famous for it. Since the pilots' unions will not do their jobs... It is rather amusing watching management take advantage of the situation. There is no advantage to AMR bringing this to a close quickly.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 16):
I think it would be interesting to have these pilots talk to career veterans from BN EA PA on and on and on. Maybe they could
possibly work together and move on. What a shame, what a pity.

   They would do better in the long run to sit down and come to a fair compromise. It will happen eventually.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 21):
Hey, when your opponent is busy trying to destroy himself, it's best to stay out of the way and let him.

Exactly. It will be interesting to see how the court cases go. But with binding arbitration looming, I suspect this will be settled within 3 or 4 years.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (6 months 15 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

I have talked to people with knowledge of this situation. This story is being way overblown by both the media and a.net. The pilots unions are actually a lot closer than we are led to believe and according to my sources who have talked to Gary Hummel directly, this situation is only about a couple of minor differences and will be resolved pretty quickly. Hummel is about to hand the keys to USAPA over to APA leadership.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8551 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 months 8 hours ago) and read 3904 times:

I think it should be settled by a manly fight, held in Klingon. But actually both unions are friendly to the merger, and know it is the luckiest thing that ever could have happened to them. These are the happy days.

User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6477 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
As a group, can they (HP Pilots) break off from USAPA and just sign with APA? The HP pilots are not members of USAPA, so they can't break off. Not positive, but I believe they belong to ALPA











User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 months 6 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 8):
Might be easier to eventually merge AA and the West

How would you do that? I though you said that there is now way to separate the West from USAPA.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinelaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 555 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Why can't they just combine the lists and go by the date in which the pilot started flying with their respective airline?


The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 months 1 hour ago) and read 2070 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 22):

Why can't they just combine the lists and go by the date in which the pilot started flying with their respective airline?

If you worked for HP that may be fine, but since they do not exist and US is the survivor, the strong get to add more restrictions.
No different now that AA is the major player in terms of numbers, even if US management are running the operations, due to numbers the AA pilots can cause more harm, so a new circle in labour relations has started.

Best of luck to all of them, they were warned, but getting rid of AA management was more important.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (6 months 1 hour ago) and read 2068 times:

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 22):
Why can't they just combine the lists and go by the date in which the pilot started flying with their respective airline?

Let's say you're the #1 pilot at US, and you started there in 1985. Under your system, if there were 20 pilots at AA who had been hired there prior to 1985, you'd suddenly be #21, and would lose the ability to select the exact schedule that you want - a decrease in quality of life. You'd probably argue for a zipper combination - one from AA, then one from US. That would end up with you being at worst #2, but then you'd be pushing all the AA pilots that have been at their airline longer than you've been at yours much further down the list.

Obviously there's no way to do it that doesn't screw anybody over, and date of hire is a reasonably fair way to do things - I'm just showing how opposition to it would arise.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 XT6Wagon : least suprising news about the AA-US merger... in the history of the merger.
26 seabosdca : The OP's source is certainly one that has every incentive to play up any and all union-related issues. I'll wait until any union fight blows into the
27 ca2ohHP : Agreed. The East pilots never saw the Nicolau decision that came down and have done everything in their power to stop it's implementation. Regardless
28 deltal1011man : Its not fair to toss pilots under the bus. Heck ask united who is the problem right now, they wont tell you pilots. Also DALPA had a deal long before
29 okie : Exactly, the arbitrator will decide. Then the different parties will appear to be representing their members. The arbitrator will be the bad guy. No
30 deltal1011man : yep. and every body under number 1 is going to fight like hell to be number 2. hell two people at least will be fighting about number 1! List merging
31 HAL : Let's say you fly for a relatively new and fast-growing airline. You may have been hired early in its existence, and started with lower wages and lim
32 azjubilee : Mgmt could generally care less about what the seniority list looks like. This is why they're not involved in coming to an agreement with one. What th
33 XT6Wagon : you think the liquidation of assets for AA-US will be that soon? I could see it depending on the number and length of strikes vistited opon the combi
34 SPREE34 : [/quote] Not so simple as you think. There were guys hired at US before HP existed that were on furlough. Your example would take a US guy on furlough
35 Post contains images RyanairGuru : That won't happen, POTUS (neither this one nor any other) will allow AA workgroups to go on strike. It'd take something like 25% of domestic capacity
36 deltal1011man : well...maybe. but I don't know why the is needed. "without XXX you wouldn't have a job!" Ahem, clearly the other company had value or they wouldn't h
37 HAL : Yes, they had some value to HP, more than doubling their size with a minimum of cash. But on their own, US wasn't going anywhere. At the announcement
38 Post contains images SPREE34 : Only within an existing company. Please explain how merging two groups/companies, then disenfranchising one is fair. I wasn't a US furloughee, so won
39 bobnwa : We are forgetting the basic pilot mantra. "The main purpose of an airline is to give pilots an aircraft to fly."
40 newhaven : Now THERE's a big shock ! So much for all the AA/US cheerleaders on here who are making posts about how easily and well this integration is gonna go
41 SPREE34 : I doubt it. The USAPA will be the usual childish group they are, right up until they no longer exists. Even if they manage to drag it out in court, D
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