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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 71735 times:
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Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

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Due to length part 46 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 47:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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380 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 908 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 71586 times:

Quote:
The Boeing 777 the Boeing 777 is equipped with an inertial guidance system (IGS), in addition to its gyros and GPSs. Presumably, the IGU plays a role in the FBW flight controls, including when in manual steering mode. The IGU could tell if a yaw was induced by a wind gust, and could thus compensate for that, at least in principle.

The INS *is* the gyros you speak of. I don't know what role the INS plays in terms of influencing the aircraft's behaviour when being flown fully manually.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offline65mustang From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 71484 times:
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A nice radar map:

Edit: I am not sure this is a radar map. The title says "STRATEGIC AIR DEFENCE ENVIRONMNENT". So what it is, I don't know.



[Edited 2014-03-27 11:13:17]

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 71279 times:

From Part 46:

Quote:
Malaysian Government holding sealed evidence?

It's not unusual for some evidence to be withheld while an investigation is in progress. As has been pointed out many times, the job of the investigators is to determine probable cause with a view to improving air safety. Their job is not to provide fuel for speculation by the public. Similarly, since there is the possibility of criminal activity, it's not surprising that some evidence would be withheld during an investigation.

FBW: Some people seem to assume that all Fly-by-wire aircraft are the same. FBW simply means that control inputs are transmitted to the actuators electrically rather than mechanically. What else is inserted between the controls and the actuators, e.g. "flight laws" and envelope protection, is up to each manufacturer. There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

[Edited 2014-03-27 10:33:25]

User currently offlinenupogodi From Canada, joined Mar 2014, 908 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 71027 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

Indeed. All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

There are some FBW aircraft, experimental at least, that can repurpose control surfaces to maintain authority/stability/etc when other control surfaces are not responding (after being shot off, for example). I saw an example of an RC aircraft that was able to maintain a stable circular flight pattern with 3/4 of one wing blown clean off (on purpose).

It is a good thing. This kind of technology makes flying safer.



A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2369 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 71018 times:

Quoting mandala499,reply=294 previous thread:
I don't think we need to go back to what it was like before 9/11, but I think we need to look at solutions on how to make the fortress cockpit not a suicide-weapon heaven.

At least I'm not proposing floating blackboxes, or streaming blackboxes, or installing systems that can't be switched off, or cargo jettison system, or parachutes for passengers...

OK. Now I see where you're coming from. Glad to see that we're on the same page then. Sorry for misreading.

Rgds,
PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offline65mustang From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70991 times:
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Does the SatCom on 9M-MRO run off DC power? I found several antenna for the 777 that do run off DC power but could not find specific info on 9M-MRO. I am wondering if maybe the systems that were "shut down" run of AC and the SatCom remained on because it was DC. While searching for the answer I found this site with lots of info.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOEING/B777.html

Interestingly enough when I clicked on the "B777 Communications" it downloaded a very thorough pdf document that had a picture of a Malaysia air 777 on the cover.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/aircraft...essources/B777-Communications.html

^^^^^lots of info and pictures of the comms^^^^^^^^^^^^


User currently offlineWarrenPlatts From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70885 times:

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 2):
A nice radar map:

That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....



There is a rebel in each and everyone of us--let it out! Don't waste your life on mundane lifestyles. When is it enough?
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70713 times:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):
All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

In practice, yes, but there doesn't need to be a computer involved. The addition of computers allows added functionality.


User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70537 times:
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Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 7):
That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....

Now does the RAAF have some radar data or not. Or did they have some issues with the radar's....



Flying high and low
User currently offlineB777fan From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70482 times:

added after previous thread was locked.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 272):
I may be missing an important point... but who builds a plane that does not revert back into a stable wings level attitude? And who certifies such an aircraft?

Actually me.

Slight diversion before back to this thread.

******

The airplane I built for myself is mostly neutrally stable - meaning - if you induce a pitch oscillation - longitudinal stability - it will not dampen out over time. It will not get worse - negative stability - but it will not get better by itself from positive stability. My aircraft requires that it be flown all the time or it will respond to all the uneven aerodynamic effects of even slight turbulence. Very soon it will not be straight and level and will not work its way back to that like a 172 should.

Why? Maneuverability. A 'perfectly' stable aircraft would not be maneuverable at all. Compromises are reached in all axises for stability. My aircraft has just slightly positive lateral stability from some dihedral in the wing. It has mostly positive directional stability.

The 172 is like a family sedan and my aircraft has a more sports car feel. It is not demanding to fly but you or an autopilot must be flying it all the time.

******

I think we are all wondering what would happen to the 777 after fuel exhaustion because we know that before that, the autopilot can keep the plane flying fine, whatever mode it is in.

Nobody seems to have a good handle on exactly what would happen depending on what mode it was in at fuel exhaustion. If it was holding altitude, when would the autopilot say, over to you Bob, I give up. Would the flight envelope protection make for a graceful descent?

I haven't seen much definitive here as to what would happen other than at some point the autopilot will give up. The envelope protection will only go so far in the 777 because it is presuming someone is actually flying the plane.


User currently offlineWarrenPlatts From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70535 times:

Quote:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 272):
I may be missing an important point... but who builds a plane that does not revert back into a stable wings level attitude? And who certifies such an aircraft?

Does the unstable bank angle of the 777 serve any purpose, actually?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_dynamic_modes

The geometric and aerodynamic parameters driving these dynamic modes can have opposing effects on these modes (in particular roll and spiral). So if you design the aircraft to be fully stable in one mode, it will probably be unstable in another. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to design a machine which will be fully stable in all circumstances.
The trick to solve this is what made the Wright bros enter posterity : they understood that instead of looking at the stability of the machine only, the should study the stability of the complete system made of the machine & pilot (human, and eventually auto). It's no coincidence they made bicycles.
With this in mind, it is possible to design an unstable machine, as long as the instability has slow enough dynamics for the pilot to correct it. In effect, the pilot is actively stabilizing the aircraft system to compensae for the lack of "passive" stabilization.

Always keep in mind that pilot and machine are two inseparable components of the wider "aircraft system" ; take one out of the picture and nothing will work properly


Quoting WarrenPlatts:


As a human being, you are naturally thinking in a geocentric referential - vertical & horizontal as related to the Earth's surface. An airplane behaves in relation not to the Earth, but to the air mass around it, which is itself moving and has varying temperatures and pressures. So the 777 is indeed "steady as a rock", but within the air surrounding it, not in relation to Earth. An Airbus FBW on the other hand, will compensate and be roughly stable compared to the Earth referential.
It's the same as a ship kept steady on a same patch of water, but which may move in relation to fixed references on shors becuase of the current (supposing no wind)


YES!!
That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....



There is a rebel in each and everyone of us--let it out! Don't waste your life on mundane lifestyles. When is it enough?
User currently offlinebond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5398 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70476 times:

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):
Quoting David L (Reply 3):
There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

Indeed. All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

... and needing a computer is also unnecessary, although is always the case of course. In theory a simple FBW aircraft could just have basic electronics to convert the position of a control column to a position of an elevator/aileron etc.

Any envelope protection, or computer processing of the signals, is a separate function than just the FBW system.

Also, the opposite is true to a certain extent. You do not necessarily need FBW in order to have envelope protection. The stick shaker is a example.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 70303 times:

Quoting bond007 (Reply 12):
You do not necessarily need FBW in order to have envelope protection. The stick shaker is a example.

A stick-pusher, perhaps? A stick-shaker is more like a "Hoi... sort this out!".

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):
If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities

But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode.

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:04:51]

User currently offlinePanAmPaul From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 69723 times:

While anet was apparently down (?), I saw this and don't think it's been covered yet.

Every day we get a similar report, but hopefully one will pan out. The amount of debris being spotted on satellite images is increasing, I assume this is a good sign but who knows.

Thai Satellite Shows New Debris Field from Malaysia Flight 370 - Weather Conditions Once Again Cut Search Short

Quote:
As the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 continued Thursday, officials reported that new satellite images showed more objects in the southern Indian Ocean, but weather conditions forced the curtailment of the search.
Thailand’s space technology agency reported that images from one of its satellites showed 300 objects in the area.  The debris was located 124 miles (200 kilometers) from where a French satellite had spotted numerous objects.


User currently offlineTheRedBAron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 69270 times:

I talked to a Pilot fiend of mine yesterday and we draw some conclusions out of these "semi facts" and the Sanity Checks posts.

We spoke on how on AF 447 they knew what happened until they saw the input on the sidestick while going on stall and the CMR confusion that lead to the crash... until then all we had were conjetures...

In this case we are in a similar situation and all the possible scenarios have big holes on them because we haven located FOR SURE the wreckage of the Aircraft. He told me intul we have positive identification of parts, we might as week send somebody to Diego Island just to be sure, heck even the Kergelens, Maldives, Cocos and such. We were talking about radar coverage, and told me, something fishy is going on since its almost imposible to fathom how a place with so many radar (military and civilian) coverage lost a BIG airliner with no trace or at least partial data.

As me he think the Captain did not do it, way too complicated, way to uncertain and to top it off as he told me : We all have troubles, if a nasty divorce would make somebody do this, we would have a crash each week...

One question because I don't know at all about this: do the mangosteens produce explosive gases?

TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offline65mustang From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 69364 times:
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There is a Tomnod image that has real possibilities of being of the wreckage.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/mh370_indian_ocean/map/835894

Looks like a cockpit with windows and you can make out the Malaysia Air stripes under the window. There is a twitter post comparing the two and they are similar.

https://twitter.com/FoxieNews/status/449217851157520385/photo/1

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:36:07]

User currently offlineapfpilot From United States of America, joined Jun 2013, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 69175 times:

Quoting bond007 (Reply 12):
... and needing a computer is also unnecessary, although is always the case of course. In theory a simple FBW aircraft could just have basic electronics to convert the position of a control column to a position of an elevator/aileron etc.

You pretty much just described Concordes FBW system



Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
User currently offlinegulfstream650 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2008, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68949 times:

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 16):

That's stupid. She has been desperate for attention since this all started. Pay any attention to the scale?


It is a wave.



I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68777 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode

  

No matter how well you have the 777 trimmed up (aileron trim) in cruise, when you take your hands off it will maintain altitude but eventually gently roll left or right, the 787 with a different FBW system will just stay there pointed straight ahead like I'm getting the idea AB does.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):
YES!! That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....

No, doesn't work that way in real life on a 777.

Quoting B777fan (Reply 10):
I haven't seen much definitive here as to what would happen other than at some point the autopilot will give up. The envelope protection will only go so far in the 777 because it is presuming someone is actually flying the plane.

With the engines and APU inoperable due to lack of fuel, the battery and then the RAT are the only things providing electric power. At this point the airplane will go from primary to secondary flight control mode and you will lose your envelope protection (overbank, overspeed and stall). With nobody in control it will not be a gentle ditching.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 870 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68600 times:

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 16):
There is a Tomnod image that has real possibilities of being of the wreckage.

Says who? Foxie News? Geez...

Those are whitecaps. If you search around the rest of the imagery provided, you will find similar looking "objects".

While I appreciate Tomnods efforts here, it makes a mockery out of the imagery analysis business. I was an IA for 6 years and you wouldn't believe the amount of training we went through, most of it on a reoccurring basis. Should people perform surgery since they were avid followers of the show ER? Or attempt to operate an aircraft because they've racked up thousands of hours in MS Flightsim? Leave the SAR effort to the professionals...

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:53:56]


Cha brro
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68539 times:

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 7):
That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....

Well, imagine you are a military radar operator in peacetime, at dark o'clock, in an area, which might be strategically important, but usually has little or no air traffic. Imagine you have to do your shift staring for hours at a dark radar display.

You might just have gone for a coffee or to use the bathroom. And I doubt that the operators, not expecting a surprise attack from Indonesia, were very alert.

Jan


User currently offline7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68245 times:

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 15):
We were talking about radar coverage, and told me, something fishy is going on since its almost imposible to fathom how a place with so many radar (military and civilian) coverage lost a BIG airliner with no trace or at least partial data.

The circles on the map above are not radar coverage -- if this was planned the airplane probably flew 200+ miles (out of radar range) west of the Cocos Island radar which probably wasn't even manned at that hour and similarly just skirted the Australian super radar.


User currently offlineflyfisher1976 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 804 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68222 times:

Hi, I searched through all the replies after it had been mentioned, but discussion regarding the (suspected) fire bottle found in the Maldives has suddenly ceased. Has this been discounted?

User currently offlineWarrenPlatts From United States of America, joined Mar 2014, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 68207 times:

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
Quoting David L (Reply 13):But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode


No matter how well you have the 777 trimmed up (aileron trim) in cruise, when you take your hands off it will maintain altitude but eventually gently roll left or right, the 787 with a different FBW system will just stay there pointed straight ahead like I'm getting the idea AB does.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):YES!! That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....

No, doesn't work that way in real life on a 777.

But Captain, are you absolutely sure? Last time you said you had never actually tried letting go of the controls when in manual flight mode. (Maybe next time you fly, you can give it a try!   ) Bill Palmer who's been writing for CNN is an (albeit AB) pilot seems to think the 777 could fly a more or less straight line with the autopilot off. There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?



There is a rebel in each and everyone of us--let it out! Don't waste your life on mundane lifestyles. When is it enough?
25 Post contains links branoco : http://humansarefree.com/2014/03/wit...sAreFree+%28Humans+Are+Free%29&m=0
26 nupogodi : You misunderstand the purpose of an INS. I suggest you look it up.
27 B777fan : Thanks, If you posted that before I must have missed it. That is how I presumed it operated. Your posts have been very informative.
28 SimonDanger : From previous thread: (B777fan): It would be interesting to know what the shut-down triage sequence would be in the event that the flight flew until f
29 Post contains links northstardc4m : I have yet to see an answer to this... Is there anything entered into the FMC that would put the plane on a direct course for the south pole, that is
30 B777fan : In principle, your GPS could keep your car on the road if you let go of the wheel - does it? With autopilot off, the INS is just going to give you yo
31 David L : Agreed. The INS provides information about location, flightpath, ground speed, etc. The autopilot can use that information to fly in a particular dir
32 7BOEING7 : What I meant was I had never let it roll to overbank protection on its own, I've let go and watched it roll several times (not to overbank) which one
33 spacecadet : No, because as I pointed out earlier, this relies on an assumption that the world is ordered and humans react predictably to any given situation. The
34 Post contains links N328KF : It appears that the Malaysia 370 mess has resulted in a new product for INMARSAT: http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...eyes-global-aero-distress-ser
35 poolkeeper : The INS boxes I have played with contains accelerometers and fiber gyros (or similar). These can give you a position for a while before the drift sta
36 David L : I think you've missed my point: I.e. INS provides information about the aircraft to the FM(G)S and does not "fly" the aircraft.[Edited 2014-03-27 13:
37 WarrenPlatts : Well, 7BOEING7 said that the 787 and AB (possibly) will stay pointed straight ahead if you let go of the wheel, so it's possible in principle. Presum
38 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : Well, then that settles it.... That means that the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path can be excluded (as indeed all autopilot off zombie theories) becaus
39 poolkeeper : That is fine I just commented about: "The INS provides information about location, flightpath, ground speed, etc". Those are normally processed outsi
40 David L : It's not a peculiarity of the 777, it's a peculiarity of aircraft that don't have a system that actively keeps the aircraft on a flightpath with no (
41 65mustang : Yes I did! Using the scale for the picture it looks about 25ft wide. What I see in this picture is what resembles a windshield, painted stripes, and
42 rolfen : Never a bad time to make new business... I have even seen the CEO of Inmarsat (if my memory serves me well) pushing for changes and adoption of new t
43 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : OK fine. But how about a little credit for helping to prove that the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path almost certainly cannot be correct despite the fac
44 hivue : I believe we're talking digital FBW here not analog as in: I don't think a digital FBW is worth much minus a (digital) computer. It's related to whet
45 WarrenPlatts : Could you post a copy of the picture inline here? I'd be interested in looking at it, but I couldn't follow the link you provided.
46 Post contains links theaviator380 : Goodness me, have a look. Thank god it wasn't a plane. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ED-PLANE-ultimate-false-alarm.html Sorry I know it's not
47 nupogodi : Wow, maybe you should share your findings with the investigators! If you didn't note the sarcasm, then interpret this very literally: You have not pr
48 Post contains images David L : Well, strictly speaking, shouldn't we be talking about IRS rather than INS?
49 65mustang : Some items from the link I have in Reply 6 above. The standby electrical system can supply AC and DC power to selected flight instruments, communicati
50 B777fan : Ok, I give up, I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. If the plane was turned to the south and the autopilot turned off and no pilot took
51 Post contains images poolkeeper : Not a bad idea Hopefully they find the plane soon so families don´t have to live in uncertainty
52 WarrenPlatts : Huh? Have you even looked at the flight paths? 1. The 450 knot flight path is not a great circle flight path. 2. The 450 knot flight path is consiste
53 MSY-MSP : I think what he is getting at is that the 400 Knot track doesn't fit with what we know. The track generated by the pings for 400 Knots shows evidence
54 awthompson : I have not yet seen a single satellite (or other) photo from the southern Indian Ocean that looks like floating debris. All I have seen is white break
55 Post contains images p51tang : Quoting p51tang (Reply 245): Why not implement a compulsory reporting system?.It could be housed in a very small boom which extends from the tail sect
56 WarrenPlatts : No problem! Yes, both paths are consistent with zombie plane scenarios: however, the 450 knot flight path would require that the autopilot was turned
57 Post contains images SimonDanger : Thanks Mustang! Very cool link, which I'm afraid will now cause me to be even more unproductive in my normal life, just as this site has I happened t
58 Starlionblue : There is already such a system, ADS-B. Just like all electrical gadgets on the plane, it can be turned off for safety reasons. Being able to turn it
59 Post contains links KDTWflyer : I tried searching in the forums and didn't see any mention of this Global Express, VH-TGG, but it seems to be actively involved in the searching proce
60 Post contains links nupogodi : http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26677056 BBC says a civilian Bombardier Global Express is involved. There have been other civilian aircraft and com
61 capri : from what i heard on the news, this type of aircraft is a long range which stays in the air longer and doesn't have to refuel hence the duration of f
62 art : There is more than one easy way of making it more or less impossible for one person to switch a system off: (1) issue each pilot with a password or P
63 Post contains links 777Jet : A new article: "Captain 'deliberately' flew MH370 off course" http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201...deliberately-flew-mh370-off-course I wonder how m
64 DTW2HYD : Though it is a definite possibility I don't understand why Malaysian government kind of supports this theory. My suspicion they may be using this inc
65 CX Flyboy : It is always in the best interests of a big businessman to help out his government where he can. Its as close to corruption as you can get without it
66 Pihero : Modern IRSs are a lot more precise than your INS. When combined with another two boxes, the precision is further augmented, the position estimated at
67 Dalavia : Could it be to deflect attention from the First Officer, who I understand had better connections to those with influence?
68 Mark2fly1034 : I think the best thing to do at this point and what the media seems to be doing is using occam's razor, which will point back to the simplest thing an
69 nupogodi : Eh, you know what, if donating time on expensive equipment towards a SAR effort is corruption, then I say let the corruption flow free. I think what
70 nupogodi : This is basically what I was trying to say, but I'm not quite eloquent enough to do it properly. The fact that the guy doesn't really know what an in
71 Post contains links rolfen : Not if it is an external unit, mounted to the outside of the fuselage, in a way that a fire would not damage or penetrate the fuselage in any way. It
72 Post contains links NAV30 : It's interesting that Channel Nine, which you quote, only quoted 29 seconds of Geoffrey Thomas's commentary. In fact the full video runs for over 2 m
73 nupogodi : To support their narrative, clearly. The Daily Mail for example, which keeps getting linked here for some reason, is notorious for this. Sensationali
74 WarrenPlatts : Hey nupogod, it should be clear from multiple posts that I never said I "proved" in the logical, mathematical, philosophical sense as in 2 + 2 = 4. I
75 nupogodi : You are making a lot of assumptions, and haven't refuted anything that Pihero said. Your biggest mistake is assuming that the published INMARSAT poss
76 fotoflyer71 : Just off CNN - search area revised based on updated analysis of radar data - aircraft was flying faster than originally thought thereby decreasing it'
77 AR385 : Breaking According to Piers Morgan on CNN, they are moving the search area some 685 miles to the North East.[Edited 2014-03-27 18:41:25][Edited 2014-0
78 NAV30 : Which appears to indicate that all the recently-found 'debris' is irrelevant to the case? Can't help feeling that it's increasingly likely that we wi
79 777Jet : The idea about the Government trying to discredit the opposition is interesting. I had not thought of that but I also would not put it past a Governm
80 fotoflyer71 : They are re-tasking satellites to search this new area.[Edited 2014-03-27 19:02:15]
81 wjcandee : Very interesting. Kathleen Bangs was saying on Megan Kelly that she sees significance in the report (the next day) from the Malaysian Airlines crew th
82 nupogodi : This is speed detected near the relative beginning of the flight, over the South China Sea and the Strait... It could have changed later. I'm unimpres
83 aftgaffe : Miles O'Brien just said on CNN that the search effort is under-resourced and the U.S. needs to get an aircraft carrier out there. I know he's not the
84 Post contains images NAV30 : I suppose that, over a long life, fotoflyer71, I've developed into a bit of a pessimist. For the last couple of days the 'authorities' have presumabl
85 DeltaMD90 : What good would a carrier do? I mean it would add to the search but it really isn't a giant SAR asset. It would be a big waste to send one there I wo
86 nupogodi : It has been talked about before, but basically the type of aircraft on an aircraft carrier are not well-suited to SAR. They don't have the right equi
87 solarflyer22 : I mean this is so much harder and more expensive than I think anyone realizes. If you're talking about deploying a full scale task force of a Nimitz
88 777Jet : I often thought that. Point 1) The 777 is a US manufactured aircraft and since the NTSB gets involved in incidents involving US manufactured aircraft
89 nupogodi : What more could you want? They sent a P8, a 130, two destroyers, helicopters and other assets... This may be outdated since apparently they withdrew
90 N328KF : Not only that, but I would put money on the US providing some rather unique assets (satellites). In addition, by the sounds of it, US intel assets ar
91 fotoflyer71 : I'm not a huge fan of this whole UAV drone movement but wouldn't these be awesome for SAR in this case (well at least the search part)? Great enduranc
92 Post contains links WarrenPlatts : The mass of the airplane would have nothing to do with it for starters. I'd upload my spreadsheet if this site allowed it, but the math is simple. Th
93 LTC8K6 : PERTH, Australia (AP) — Australian authorities say the search area for the missing Malaysian airliner has shifted because of a "new credible lead."
94 Lindenwold : i heard the united states doesn't want to use drones for security/intel reasons.
95 N328KF : The US (and probably Australia too) is acquiring the MQ-4C Triton, which is a modified version of the Global Hawk. It would be tailor-made for this s
96 Post contains links LTC8K6 : http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...d-based-on-planes-fuel-consumption Malaysia Airlines plane was going faster than previously thought, meaning it
97 gatorman96 : Our UAV's are pretty tied up at the moment...[Edited 2014-03-27 19:45:28]
98 AR385 : Anybody have an idea what the "new credible lead" is?
99 Lindenwold : Are they still investigating those 2 debris fields?
100 LTC8K6 : The plane was cruising at a higher speed than originally thought, thus it ran out of fuel earlier? Somehow that doesn't make sense at first reading..
101 Post contains images lazybones : As a divorcee... that's just too funny .. gold
102 777Jet : "a P8" as in one?
103 DeltaMD90 : There is one and I believe they are sending another. Not too shabby since there are only 6 that deployed to Japan, I believe. That's 1/3 of them righ
104 Starlionblue : Possible, certainly, but you're talking a huge expense for every single aircraft. More weight, a change in aerodynamics. If you add a tail boom, say,
105 Post contains links and images 777Jet : I read an article about that a while ago: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2...nger-range-plane-to-search-effort/ "the U.S. has deployed six of the
106 DeltaMD90 : What, should we all drop everything we are doing and search for MH370? Agree or disagree with the US in Asia, but they have a job to do over there an
107 WarrenPlatts : No, no, no.... Dude, I totally recognize that the published Inmarsat tracks are mere models. Given a series of circular LOPs and a given speed, assum
108 Starlionblue : I hope that if I had a relative on the plane, I could be rational about such things. I probably couldn't, and that's the problem. The last people to
109 fotoflyer71 : Had no idea they were that pricey! Thanks.
110 wjcandee : One of the more annoying things about this is the glacial pace at which our military rolls things out...which means that our P8s "don't have" aerial r
111 flyenthu : Maybe this has been discussed, but why are so many satellite leads just turning up empty? Have ships reached the areas? What are those objects in the
112 B777fan : Ok, I am starting to see your argument and you are just flat wrong. Here is a thought experiment. Assume no wind conditions over the earth for a sing
113 rwessel : All of that is drowned out by the fact that the airplane moves in the air mass, not around the center of earth, and the air mass, is largely glued to
114 Post contains images Starlionblue : Hey, I said that! Aerial refueling is risky, complex and very very expensive. Training takes time, and it's one thing to refuel a plane that's close
115 Post contains links rfields5421 : Some of you need to read a factual list of assets committed to the search efforts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi...ht_370#International_partici
116 flyenthu : I get that, but somehow finding it hard to buy that debris numbering in the 100s would all play hide and seek.
117 Post contains links PanAmPaul : Once again, there's a new 'credible lead' and the entire search is moving 700 miles north. Malaysia Flight 370: Latest Radar Data Sends Searchers 700
118 Starlionblue : Fair point, but conditions have a lot to do with it. We're talking big waves and low cloud so a ship could pass by a piece of wreckage 500 meters awa
119 fotoflyer71 : So you did!!! Apologies - don't know how I screwed that up...!
120 flyenthu : Something tells me that things are not quite "adding up" with their math if they are now focusing in an area hundreds of miles away. This is truly a
121 BackSeater : Search area should probably be adjusted because it was determined before Doppler data became available There has been a lot of discussion about 400kts
122 DeltaMD90 : I don't see what is so surprising... they are finding more and more evidence out and are refining the search. It's not like it's the Indian Ocean one
123 undertheradar : please feel free to have my post deleted....but I just need to 'vent'.... I fully realize that this event is ever changing..not an exact science...as
124 nupogodi : Not exactly. You can do that, but you need to know the speed of the aircraft away/towards the sat... Well, we know it's away. But we don't really kno
125 Post contains links 777Jet : I actually agree with the US in Asia (to bite at your semantic game). And what job are the ones not searching for MH370 actually doing? That is all I
126 Finn350 : As explained in the previous thread, they know the satellite's track accurately and can remove the Doppler shift induced by the satellite's movement.
127 Starlionblue : They might be training for their primary mission or undergoing maintenance. Also, Australia is right there. Sorta. Japan is a long way from Australia
128 Post contains links aftgaffe : http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...ey-thomas-on-plane-debris.cnn.html According to an expert on CNN, the debris has "absolutely" been found. And a
129 aftgaffe : Before anyone gets on me about how laughable that is, I was being sarcastic. Though someone on CNN really did just say the debris has absolutely been
130 undertheradar : piers morgan...trying to 'salvage' his career...lol.
131 Post contains images 777Jet : Only about 10.5 hours from Perth
132 nupogodi : He doesn't quite get as much hate here in North America as he does from the Brits, but I totally see where they're coming from. The man is a waste of
133 BackSeater : Please allow me to disagree. I assume that Inmarsat models the motion of its satellite very well, as all operators do, the only uncertainty possible
134 Post contains images aftgaffe : You can't honestly say that when they started talking about black holes and supernatural intervention that it wasn't among the more entertaining thin
135 Post contains images 777Jet : He has earned a tiny little bit more respect in Australia after facing Brett Lee in the nets during the Ashes Cricket. However, he received damage th
136 Post contains links Starlionblue : This is worth reposting. Again and again. It is The Daily Show's "critique" of CNN and Fox coverage. Warning: The following short videos contain vici
137 nupogodi : I get what you're saying, and I'll disagree with you too. Assume for a moment that the aircraft is circling the satellite perfectly. I know, I know,
138 BackSeater : Exactly. In addition, the algorithm I propose does not force a speed for the whole flight a priori. Between any pair of pings you have to explore pos
139 65mustang : Mandala gave these numbers in part 46. There's another problem to the speed... the part from Penang to the last point of radar contact, the aircraft o
140 BackSeater : Of course. Their graph was instrumental in eliminating from speculation the northern arc once and for all. Great! What I described is a straightforwa
141 nupogodi : Calm down buddy, I said "the Brits" not "you Brits".
142 bikerthai : "Anyone have a sense of why the U.S. hasn't sent an aircraft carrier? The US doesn't have any available. The budget games last year forced the US Nav
143 Finn350 : That is actually a good question... upgrading the speed increases the westward component of the velocity and downgrading the speed increases the east
144 undertheradar : LOL...im calm...I forget that typing capitals nowadays means SHOUTING lol..... im oldschool...where capitals meant highlighting/emphasizing words..lo
145 spacecadet : Some people seem to be having a hard time grasping this. Someone should make a new graph that explains it. If the plane was traveling faster than pre
146 Finn350 : Yes, based on the last ping arc only, if the plane was travelling faster or slower than the optimum cruise speed of 450 knots it would have ended nor
147 imagoagnitio : Just picked up a Royal Australian Air Force KC-30A landing at Perth Int'l, just wondering if they are able to refuel any of the foreign SAR aircraft,
148 bluesky9 : I have read most of the threads but just like to throw in a couple of ideas into the mix which hopefully have not been mentioned before. Some of the i
149 spacecadet : I feel like from your earlier posts that you're interpreting this new info as saying the speed *after* radar contact was lost was higher. I watched t
150 EC135 : I just heard on news radio that the search area has shifted about 1000kms to the northeast... In my opinion they absolutely have no clue where the pl
151 777Jet : The frustrating thing, I guess, about this is that each new sighting 'looks more promising' than the last. Then, nothing is found after a few days, w
152 Post contains links slinky09 : Now confirmed by AMSA, the new search area can be seen here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26780897. So all those Thai, French, Chinese and Am
153 Post contains links Finn350 : Yes, I misinterpreted what LTC8K6 said. Thanks for correcting my assumption. EDIT: Now BBC has posted a graphics were there is a new track at 400 kno
154 desh : So - given all the discussions around math and sat pings. Would it be possible to fire up another 777 send it along the expected path , with enough fu
155 Post contains images BoeingVista : Hey, I'm Australian and I have special knowledge of the Indian Ocean, to paraphrase Sarah Palin, I can see it from my house..
156 Airbus747 : Another question that might have not been discussed yet: Could it simply be that the crew not only lost all communication electronics but also satelli
157 Skydrol : And this, unfortunately, folks is the condensed version of the regular "sanity check". Keep thinking of the MH370 passenger and crew families, and wh
158 mila : If the one flying(captain?) wanted to make a suicide without a trace then he would fly as high as possible in order to make everybody fall asleep and
159 liquidair : Ok, so for the ones who understand the Inmarsat pings, a question for you. The calculations announced by the PM narrowed the search down to a smaller
160 Finn350 : The ping "arc" contains all the possible locations the plane could have been at the time of the last ping at 8:11 am (all the points on the arc havin
161 chaseus1 : Would a plane slow down as it got lighter? Maybe they are taking the last known speed they had tracked from radar, and reevaluating what the upper wi
162 Post contains images Pihero : No.The predicted tracks come from what I described in an earlier post, with a diagram. The Doppler results only confirm the results and also help eli
163 jelliesR : i don't understand the change of search area. They know the last ping time and in fact added a later partial ping! if the plane was going faster than
164 liquidair : yes, thank you, i understood that bit. I'm asking about the specifics regarding the actual PM's announcement made based on the calculation given to t
165 GZed : I don't think its anything to do with speeds during the primary radar contact. The 330kts speed seen by primary radar was probably due to the aircraf
166 Starlionblue : Not unless it was commanded to. However weight does have an effect on drag. The less weight, the lower the AoA for a given speed. In practical terms
167 NAV30 : Prevailing currents in the region are definitely from west to east, liquidair. Can't find anything reliable on speed yet, I'll keep looking. Probably
168 Post contains links Finn350 : From AMSA statement: Source: http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documents/28032014MH370Update23.pdf I admit that your explanation sounds more logical.
169 art : Decisions made on what areas to search are based on a perceived level of certainty that the aircraft came down in a particular area - based on availab
170 GZed : A small fuel burn increase during such a short portion of the flight, is very unlikely to require a 50kt decrease to the estimated speed over the fin
171 GZed : Is it possible just from the latest analysis from the Inmarsat data that they could have refined the altitude estimate for the final leg? If not, then
172 DTW2HYD : How does the new "credible" higher speed theory fit into Inmarsat's handshake timeline. Higher speed suggests higher fuel burn and short distance but
173 Post contains links GZed : I've got a couple of sites I'd like our radar buffs to check out, regarding the Jindalee Operational Radar Network (JORN) over-the-horizon radar (OTHR
174 rolfen : Yes, but we don't know what data has been saved. The ping itself, when it happened, may have contained all the needed data, but it was logged somewhe
175 Post contains images markalot : Unfortunately I don't think they have any idea where this plane is, other than somewhere in the south Indian Ocean. I wonder how long before they admi
176 chaseus1 : I think just the opposite. I think they have been reviewing evidence, refining calculations, and have it narrowed down to about where the plane is. I
177 BackSeater : I agree. I am just as surprised as you are given their communication missions. But we can only cheer that so much useful data was indeed recorded in
178 Post contains links mpsrent : According to BBC and CBC report, the Royal New Zealand Air Force reports that they've spotted 11 unknown objects in the new search area. http://www.bb
179 mika : I don't think that any of the parties involved has stated that they know where the plane is to be honest, just that it ended up in the indian ocean.
180 Post contains links and images WarrenPlatts : Guys, your intuitions are leading you astray. Taking into account the Coriolis effect in aircraft navigation is common knowledge. The video you say i
181 Post contains links 777Jet : Here is another link: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...5/search-resumes-for-missing-mh370 "Objects sighted by a New Zealand military plane in t
182 GZed : Actually, I can think of one scenario that might explain the media reports regarding the revised search area and lower estimated speed for the souther
183 Kaiarahi : 1. Very few of the aircraft on a carrier are suitable for search operations. 2. Carriers do not travel alone. There are many ships in a carrier group
184 alhena : Please do the math. Assuming aircraft weight = 200 000kg and speed = 1000 km/h you will get a force due to coriolis effect of 1432N when flying strai
185 nupogodi : It will be difficult to find exact numbers for this ... The basic info I was able to find on Boeing's website (nowhere near detailed enough to make t
186 BackSeater : In my previous posts #112 in thread 43, #178 in 44 and #110 in 45, II proposed that the aircraft may have climbed from a very low level to 32,000ft o
187 mouldypete : I think you may be referring to a calculation made by '777Jet' in Thread 38 reply 6? I quote User currently online777Jet From Australia, joined Mar 2
188 DTW2HYD : I think a helicopter carrier like USS Boxer, HMS Ocean or JMSDF's Hyūga class would be a perfect fit. Drones are not an option because of Chinese "c
189 Post contains images 777Jet : G'Day! That info was posted by mercure1 after the previous thread (thread 37) was closed so I just copied and pasted it into the new thread (thread 3
190 solarflyer22 : Yeah, that was what I thought exactly. To store enough data to do Doppler analysis is surprising to me. Those 20 year old satellites have less memory
191 rfields5421 : Yes, it is wrong to expect more. The search for MH370 is not the most important thing occurring on this planet today. Even during the search near the
192 BackSeater : Interestingly enough, when I brought up that post initially made by loladaisydukes (#121 thread 50), I was curtly told 'already denied." Maybe we sho
193 rfields5421 : The previous search area farther south is not a good helicopter operating location. Also for a search in the current phase - fixed wing aircraft are
194 777Jet : I would assume that some of the new images will be on the net and on TV soon. I am just watching BBC Impact on ABC News 24 right now and they showed o
195 WarrenPlatts : No problem... F = ma ==> a = F/m 1432 N / 200 000 kg = 0.00716 m/s2 Hmm. I think your force calculation is off by about a factor of 2. The delta v
196 Post contains links rfields5421 : IR is useless in this type search. Also, a 30 hour range will not give you 20 hours on station. At the 30 hour speed - the Global Hawk would take 8 t
197 nupogodi : Maybe he meant radar sats... Radar imaging does look through clouds and works at night, but I don't know how useful it would be for spotting debris.
198 Finn350 : Newton's 1st law is "When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless
199 David L : All I can say is that it was stated to be "not true" at one of the first press conferences. It has also been stated since then that the last voice co
200 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : Yes, of course, you're right. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible for those guys. From the book I linked to:
201 billreid : i just was reading the Telegraaf in Holland and they are reporting that experts are now convinced that the path of the aircraft was intentional. The p
202 Post contains links and images markalot : From the BBC Flight MH370: 'Objects spotted' in new search area http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26786549 Now with a picture.
203 nupogodi : To be fair they can pick any search area they want and find objects.
204 rcair1 : Both of these are very scary to me. - What about an incopacitate pilot. - What if somebody screws up and doesn't put the right PIN in the a/c because
205 BackSeater : Of course, I do not claim that it is true either. I am just noticing that sometimes we might prune the tree of possibilities a bit too quickly, even
206 Post contains images rcair1 : I strongly object to this kind of language. We are not talking about 'zombies' or non-entities crashing. We are talking about over 200 souls who lost
207 Post contains images tim73 : "Skynews: Missing Plane: Image Shows Objects In Sea." The sky is blue too. Thanks for the info
208 Summa767 : There is a lot of rubbish in the sea, that is for sure. However, relating to the only object in the new search area of which we have a picture, and w
209 Trin : This was actually posted by someone (I can't recall who - there's been so many posts) yesterday on the previous thread - about how they reckoned MH37
210 tim73 : Roaring Forties and then Screaming Sixties there with 15 meter waves. Task of finding any debris is pretty much hopeless.
211 rj777 : This is one of the reasons I (and I'm sure many people) hate all these airlines having all these mostly white liveries. If they crash, you're looking
212 nupogodi : It doesn't look like an aileron to me... I don't know if it would float either. Could be anything, really. But time is running out to find the wrecka
213 Post contains images Trin : Actually, I don't share your pessimism. They never thought the resting place of H-GZCP would be found and yet it was. It took two years and private p
214 WarrenPlatts : Sir, I certainly didn't coin the term--it's all over the media, and we aren't going to change that here. Plus zombies are scary, mindless, killing ma
215 rc135x : Well put, Sir. The discussions are increasingly strident as well, with an escalating emphasis on the poster rather than the substance of the post. We
216 nupogodi : Yeah but they knew practically exactly where it went down. It was, what, less than a dozen nm away from the flight path? They had great data. The sea
217 David L : Nevertheless I stand by my reasons for requiring more evidence for that particular claim. If it was true and they didn't want us to know about it the
218 DeltaMD90 : Not to rehash something from last night (my time,) but I disagree and I should have been more detailed in what I was saying. They aren't just wildly
219 spacecadet : Well that's at least something, as in an actual object, rather than what I suspected were mostly just whitecaps in the earlier satellite photos with
220 Post contains links BackSeater : From thread #5 (feels like eons ago) User currently offlineloladaisydukes From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 11 posts, RR: 0 Reply 121,
221 Trin : What made you think that the satellite images released were mostly whitecaps? I've looked at every image they've released thus far, and most of them
222 DTW2HYD : I am not questioning their intelligence or motives. There are lot of institutions doing advanced research on these topics, whether it is satellite co
223 Kaiarahi : This says the report is garbage: 121.5 is widely monitored, and the contact would by now have been confirmed by multiple sources. And how do you get t
224 davidzill : CNN now reporting aircraft have spotted floating debris in the new search area. Whether it's from MH370 or not, that's up to the experts to decide.
225 spacecadet : See my reply earlier in the thread; no point repeating it. I will say that I'm not the only one here who thought the same thing, and that includes pe
226 BackSeater : Again, I am not saying it is true. But it is an early piece of the puzzle that seems to be remarkably compatible with what we now know. To me it make
227 Post contains links and images Pihero : As I don't see your maths from the 35 ( !!! ) equations provided by your link, allow me to take that result with a pinch of salt. Problem is I've bee
228 Post contains links MarkAK : To those of you asking about SATCOM logging of Doppler. I found this: http://www.satcomdirect.com/connect/presentations09/Inmarsat%20101.pdf Note espe
229 N328KF : You know what would come in handy right about now? A PBY Catalina and a seaplane tender.
230 DeltaMD90 : That's the thing though, I think they are Edit: I misread what you said. How are they supposed to run multiple models? We are lucky that Inmarsat has
231 LTC8K6 : Has any other pilot come forward about hearing it? Or any ATC? If it was broadcast, it should have been heard.
232 BackSeater : Not that I know of. In fact, I don;t recall hearing much from the Vietnamese ATC side. If you control a sector, I assume you would know that MH370 is
233 David L : Having looked at the article you linked to, I'm embarrassed to say that I have to retract my claim not to have seen it. However, how many other "soli
234 solarflyer22 : Yeah, I meant infrared but it has to very intense cloud cover to not see through it. A lot of what is in this region is this arctic mist though it wa
235 B777fan : I sincerely hope I don't sound so patronizing to you. I thought I gave you the clue to what your were missing in my last post. Your calculations are
236 AR385 : Zombies do not exist. They are fiction. A figment of someone´s imagination. MH370 is very real, and the families of the those lost are also very rea
237 nupogodi : Doesn't have to be a spy satellite. I worked for one of the companies involved in RADARSAT. The imagery is pretty great. Don't know how useful it wou
238 rcair1 : I'm not talking about the media - I'm talking about discussion on airliners.net We are in control of our words - not the media or anybody else. As th
239 WarrenPlatts : What is this place? 4chan?!? Unbelievable... FYI I was professional navigator in the US Navy (QM). That page you're showing me is a correction you're
240 nupogodi : Autopilot? GPS? I'm lucky to have a working radio.
241 Post contains images KELPkid : Let's see: Advantages: 1) LONG loiter time, designed for longer time on station than any Orion or Poseidon 2) if seas are calm enough, can land on wa
242 Kaiarahi : In case you don't realize it, Pihero is one of the most experienced and respected contributors to a.net. His experience goes way back before GPS and
243 Lindenwold : I can't even believe news outlets are reporting new debris being spotted.
244 mandala499 : And here we go again... If it's a higher speed, the results would be: It would have reached further by 0811AM, therefore should be further southwest
245 tugger : I believe WarrenPlatts was just responding to the "disdain" that he felt he had been shown by Pihero. I think the problem in this situation is that n
246 starrion : Not that we should always be the one rushing to the cause, but why hasn't anyone sent a helicopter carrier down there yet?! The planes are always chas
247 Post contains links Finn350 : It was discussed earlier in this thread... the whole confusion stems from the fact that the plane is believed to have flown faster when in RADAR cove
248 nupogodi : Yeah, it does seem a bit suspect. I didn't really understand this either. I totally agree with you, if you assume a higher speed *and* a straight tra
249 11Bravo : Indeed. Probably not the last time we will see a change in the SAR search area. I know this shift is based off the "new" speed data, but some of the
250 hivue : I assume we are talking GS and not TAS here? Does anyone know what the winds at the aircraft's assumed altitude(s) between the South China Sea and th
251 Finn350 : They have not stated which speed they are referring to, but TAS might actually be more consistent, as that can be tied more directly to the fuel cons
252 Pihero : - Noi it is the effect of the Coriolis acceleration on an orthofrome. I told you about free gyro Navigation, or Polar Path navighation. That's a load
253 Post contains links WingedMigrator : The latest AMSA map labels the tracks as follows: 475 knots and 469 knots for the two routes that end in the "old" search area 400 knots for the new
254 Post contains images canoecarrier : Something tells me you have built quite a spreadsheet by now friend
255 Post contains images rolfen : I hope you're right too. I believe they will know about this plane at some point, but it might be by accident, in a couple of decades
256 SimonDanger : Since I readily admit to having a lot less mental horsepower than the experts here at A.NET, my understanding is the following: * High altitude + effi
257 65mustang : Is it a ridiculous idea to fuel up an identical 777 and send it along the suspected route to verify data? If SAR could agree on a set of indisputable
258 nm2582 : Technically you could do this, but to "replicate" the flight as they think it happened, you'd have to be willing to lose a 777 to the ocean. I can't
259 rj777 : Sure unless you want to wreck another million dollar airplane.
260 jox : And what are the "trial" 777 going to do after 8:19 when it runs out of fuel? Ditch in the ocean? If you answer "it will have a fuel reserve to Perth"
261 7BOEING7 : No it wouldn't. No passengers, no baggage, no cargo -- fuel up to original weight (this will give you extra to get back to land), add ballast as nece
262 aftgaffe : Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the new finding of "more speed" on the westbound leg... is that still believed to have been at FL120? Do
263 65mustang : Of course you would need more fuel than was on flight MH370. The 777 range is 19 hours/9,395 nautical miles. Mh370 left KUL with about 35% of its fue
264 chaseus1 : And without passengers and cargo, additional fuel would be even less of a problem.
265 rcair1 : With the fuel loading changes mentioned to assure similar weight - it is not ridiculous. But I'm not really sure we'd learn much. While empirical exp
266 Post contains links KarelXWB : I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but here's a video showing how rough the sea in the search area is: http://youtu.be/MilaAOp7k2M As one ca
267 nupogodi : This is actually video taken from an LPG tanker called the 'Venere' in the Atlantic Ocean during a hurricane in Jan 2013. Here is the original video:
268 Post contains images KarelXWB : Thanks. Yes that would be wise
269 nupogodi : And if you wanted to confirm the INMARSAT data, you'd have to also begin your flight at precisely the same point in the satellite's orbit. Winds and
270 rc135x : Even so it certainly suggests the difficulty of the task at hand, and makes the voyage of the James Caird that more phenomenal.
271 rfields5421 : The 'unnamed' pilot did not report a contact with MH370 to Vietnam ATC, or anyone else. Several aircraft were contacted and all reported unable to co
272 BackSeater : I hear you. I just wished MAS had reported officially that they asked their pilots Mr. X and Y on the Narita flight that night who confirmed that the
273 777Jet : I have been contacted by the media through here and I am only a newbie to this forum. I wonder who hasn't been contacted... We know how desperate the
274 nupogodi : I've only been contacted multiple times by some guy desperate for RR who said "I'll respect you if you respect me", which was just weird. Thankfully
275 65mustang : Are there any protocols in place for Maylaysia airlines or atc to attempt to contact a plane via satillite phone if it goes missing? If a sat call was
276 Dalavia : I doubt that there has been such a statement. I have been watching out for some kind of official update on this point since this saga began, and if t
277 LTC8K6 : I thought I read that 9M-MRO had no Sat phone service.
278 Post contains images GZed : Rcair1, can I ask why you have elected not to include this track and waypoints in your "Sanity Check". Previous discussions here have concluded that t
279 Post contains links and images nupogodi : Slightly better image
280 Post contains links vnangia : So one question that I have for those of you who know is based on the coverage that Inmarsat is showing at at their website. The initial area was just
281 BackSeater : Better image graphically but you have lost all the important information contained in the radar plot. If you read my posts in the previous threads re
282 nupogodi : We know nothing definitive about their altitude or speed as the reports keep changing, so I am perfectly content with discounting your analysis, if t
283 nupogodi : I did very well in trig - but, I am not an expert on SATCOM. I barely knew anything about it until MH370. But people who do know SATCOM, people smart
284 BackSeater : We definitely won't know anything definite until the DFDR is found. In the mean time, I'll keep plugging along analyzing the Malaysian and Thai radar
285 SimonDanger : See if you guys can follow me on this...after doing some reading over at SmartCockpit I found this under the electrical section: Ram Air Turbine (RAT)
286 aftgaffe : I think you're missing a step in your argument. Why would water contact trigger a (partial) ping and not, say, the deployment of the RAT?
287 Post contains images fotoflyer71 : I got your back BackSeater
288 nupogodi : I have absolutely no problem being wrong and admitting to it. I just think we have an incomplete picture with many conflicting reports, so even the m
289 SimonDanger :
290 aftgaffe : That makes a lot of sense to me, though this is well outside of my wheelhouse (everything I've learned, I've learned from this thread). It seems anal
291 aftgaffe : That could be. But what would trigger an off-interval ping in the first place? It makes sense to me, as nupgodi has offered, that following the loss
292 Post contains links and images YVRLTN : The Beriev Chaika - China built them under license too. Incredible beast View Large View MediumPhoto © Natalia Demyanchuk Doesnt seem practical for
293 GZed : There appears to be on-going dispute about the altitudes flown along this track. I'm no radar expert so I wont comment, but getting back to the track
294 Finn350 : What was the significance of the white circle in the middle? The aircraft flying at a lower altitude?
295 Post contains links PanAmPaul : There seems to have been new objects spotted in the new search area. Ships are on the way to verify. Australia Says Search For Missing Plane Has Found
296 SimonDanger : I also found this, which says the SATCOM is shed upon power loss,... Backup Generators Backup power is provided by one variable speed, variable frequ
297 Starlionblue : I assume that if you're down to RAT the autopilot would have disconnected and the control law degraded to a basic level. So if we're assuming incapac
298 nupogodi : Lack of radar contact/return.
299 nupogodi : Heard that that is the case, but can't say for sure.
300 Finn350 : Yes, that is obvious, but I meant what is the reason for the lack of radar contact/return? The graph indicates that the aircraft was inside the of ra
301 SimonDanger : Makes sense...thanks. It sounds like all you guys were in class applying yourselves while I was smoking in the boys room!
302 Post contains links and images mandala499 : Actually, no, haven't started on the spreadsheet, just a bunch of notes that are bits and pieces. No, but this can all be done with basic computer mo
303 nupogodi : Is there part of the terrain that would block PSR there? Perhaps they were in the radar shadow of a mountain? If there was terrain, how low would the
304 Finn350 : I assume that the radar plot is from a single radar at Butterworth AB. As the plane re-appeared in the radar later in almost the same direction, the
305 nupogodi : Yeah it's true, Butterworth is pretty well lined up with MEKAR so they should have had a straight shot to them en-route. I'm at a total loss. I can't
306 7BOEING7 : No, but the engine driven hydraulics work depending on the wind milling speed. Actually you're in secondary and you're envelope protection is gone, s
307 BackSeater : Remember the earth in not flat!!!!! And radars do not do very well when the antenna is at essentially sea level and the target is at too low an altit
308 Post contains images Skydrol : Dude, do you even sleep? You have only joined a.net three weeks ago and already have more than 440 posts (my guess, mostly about MH370). You should b
309 nupogodi : I'm on vacation and even when I'm not, I work from home. Software development is awesome. Bullshit projects for moneyed clients pays for flying time.
310 oldas : One question: Lets assume I would like to go with T7 as far as I can. Does it make a sence to fly with only one engine or any other "assymetrical" thr
311 mandala499 : No it doesn't.... 1 engine out = more drag from the inoperative engine. 1 engine out = lower altitude lower altitude = more fuel burn per engine for
312 65mustang : Thank you for your response. I saw this in the communications summary: The SATCOM system provides both data and voice communications. The system is m
313 oldas : Thanks, clear. And second question: does FDR include all data of autopilot setting?
314 Pihero : The NTSB / Inmarsat *loci* are totally independent from a point of origin. ... Incredible what human ingenuity can achieve . Only reason I can think
315 Post contains links Finn350 : This is a good explanation: Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_03_26_2014_p0-675307.xml
316 Post contains links and images p51tang : This fuel burn information Is very helpful.I've used mapping http://www.freemaptools.com/measure-distance.htm to calculate the distance in km's (as o
317 NAV30 : Because sea and air navigation still work on nautical miles, p51tang. 1,852km. is 1,000 nms. No way of changing everything to metric. It would cost a
318 Pihero : It does because at least you're interested in trying to meet facts and theory together. However : 1/- Fuel Planning for the airborne part of the flig
319 monjonman : Can anyone confirm or has seen a statement or news article that indicates they have also dropped new sonar buoys at the new search location and if the
320 p51tang : Hi Pihero,thanks for your reply. Are we both asking the same question?.In that,we both don't know what the fuel burn is?.
321 Pihero : Actually, we do, with a good approximation : FOB at T/O = 49.1 tons, so imagining ( that's not too hard ) that the flight eventually ran out of fuel,
322 YoungMans : For whom it may concern: Flight Data Recorders (Black Boxes) sonar-ping ... for future consideration. Background ... The 30-day limit in which the 'Bl
323 Post contains images mouldypete : One interest of note is that if the new proposed possible track is correct, then the a/c must have flown for at least 1000kms through the coverage are
324 Post contains images nupogodi : Sorry buddy, you're 100% incorrect this time! The original arcs assumed a stationary satellite, but the Doppler analysis specifically relied on the s
325 Kaiarahi : Answered upthread. JOR2 (near Laverton, WA) is not operated continuously and the scan arc depends on military considerations - it likely spends most
326 rheinwaldner : Then I would reduce speed....
327 BackSeater : Pihero is right. The locus for the Nth ping only depends on the RTD and the satellite position at that ping time. When you change the starting positi
328 nupogodi : Okay, I have no idea what you're talking about. You did see the slides released by the Malaysian transportation authority with data from Inmarsat via
329 WarrenPlatts : Listen. I used to do celestial navigation, and not just for fun. This was back in the day before GPS was fully online. Gulf War era. When your ship j
330 Post contains images Pihero : In this case, and mind you, I can be wrong, tell me how you determine the derived trajectories from a set of *loci*, LOPs, whatever you name them (Ju
331 Post contains links nupogodi : *sigh* I don't need to, the Inmarsat folks have already done it for you. http://i.imgur.com/kSXSyW3.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ZMvCBKs.jpg You'll notice
332 WarrenPlatts : Like I said, if you're flying your 172 on a compass heading, you are compensating for the Coriolis effect without realizing it.
333 BackSeater : Isn't the above your original post? What "original arcs" are you referring to? Are there several? I must have missed something.
334 nupogodi : By "original arcs", I mean the distance from the satellite Inmarsat calculated before they refined their data with Doppler analysis. It was the first
335 nupogodi : Pihero, let me remind you of the conversation that started this discussion: - Someone questioned the possibility of recreating the accident flight - S
336 Kaiarahi : A word of advice, since you've only been on a.net for 3 weeks. There are a number of people on these threads who have earned very widespread respect
337 Pihero : Another load of Bull. It's a lateral displacement of your celestial LOP... proof is that, added with the *Curve correction* I mentioned in the same p
338 nupogodi : I'm not disrespecting anyone. I think there is a communication problem here, since we seem to be talking about completely different things. Please do
339 Pihero : Sorry, buddy. You have not answered my question. Those links are just about frequency shifts and sat displacement. They certtainly do not give you a
340 Post contains images WarrenPlatts : IOW, it's a challenge, buddy. [/quote] For a series of circular LOPs, assuming a given, constant speed, a general direction, and straight lines betwe
341 nupogodi : I'm not saying anything about determining a trajectory, friend. I am not sure why we have our wires crossed here. You may have had my original reply
342 Pihero : I totally agree with the method. Agreed, but the Inmarsat people are quite confident - and do not doubt them one millisecond - that they've nailed th
343 Finn350 : As stated in the Inmarsat graphs: Inmarsat clearly states that the satellite's motion is known. When the trajectory of the satellite is known, the Do
344 BackSeater : Thank you for the lecture on what you know that I know full well as I also explained all this in earlier posts. Your post #324 as originally written
345 Post contains links PanAmPaul : In today's Australian maritime safety agency report, it turns out that the ships are finding objects but nothing MH370 related. Planes continue to spo
346 WarrenPlatts : It's both! A minute correction to your sextant angle translates to a nautical mile lateral displacement of your celestial LOP. Again: it's an aircraf
347 canoecarrier : I have to agree with Kahaiari. This accident has brought a lot of new people to the forum who have run up some abnormally high post counts in under a
348 nupogodi : Kind of unfair to jump on me, guys, as 'running' professionals away. I appreciate Pihero's contributions, clearly a very intelligent and knowledgeabl
349 Post contains images comorin : Agreed. To advise the Head Moderator to look up something on Wikipedia is impertinent. Next: tips to Bellerophon on how to fly a plane?
350 Theredbaron : THIS. Since March 10 or so I posted that I could not believe that aircraft was lost, in this day and time, no matter the factors ( pilot involved, hi
351 WarrenPlatts : No problem sir. Here's the equation from the book on programming flight simulators: ve = vi - ωie X r. ve is the velocity in the Earth's rotating fr
352 SimonDanger : If I may add my 2 cents on style. I have found, from my experience, that when one seeks to learn, teach and communicate ideas between people with opp
353 Post contains links jetterrosie : Finding it hard to keep track of search areas and follow-up on what happened with the various sightings but here is another Chinese sighting discounte
354 Post contains images cougar15 : Dearest Mods! TOTALLY appreciating, this is not your day Job (and a sincere thanks for your top efforts in recent weeks - especially to SA7700 and RC
355 Skydrol : Note at the top right of the topic web page, under ''Change Forum...'' there is: xx unread: Jump to first This helps avoid scrolling and saves time.
356 nupogodi : For what it's worth, if you use the "Jump to first" (or jump to last if all posts are read) button at the top of the page, that will embed an anchor
357 Post contains links jetterrosie : Actually if anyone else is sharing my confusion the map in this NYT article seems to give a good summary of search locations although if I'm not mist
358 rcair1 : Nicely stated. I think we have a lot of smart people here doing their best to understand a situation that, in many ways, it beyond comprehension for
359 BackSeater : Question: how low can a 777 fly over water without exceeding structural stress? Mr Hayward has been quoted in WSJ and I think elsewhere as saying: Whi
360 rfields5421 : In any sea search - there is always a quantity of debris recovered which is not from the subject of the search. The oceans are vast, and there is an
361 Post contains images nupogodi : Not exactly sure what they mean by stress levels. The 777 can fly as low as it wants, just Google "777 low pass" if you want evidence. The thing has t
362 BackSeater : No speed mentioned by Mr. Hayward (WSJ 18 March) I was expecting a SAR or test pilot's response, something like: - 250kts > 500 ft - 300kts > .
363 DeltaMD90 : 200ft is the lowest. They often fly higher since they must have autopilot off below 500ft and they need LPUs on below 1000ft[Edited 2014-03-29 10:03:
364 rfields5421 : The 'expert' is probably misquoted in the press - it happens a LOT in this search/ story. He is likely talking about the various V speeds - and the r
365 art : May I just make the point that without knowing either the airspeed of the aircraft or the altitude(s) at which it was flown it is not possible to pred
366 BackSeater : Question: what range of speeds is sustainable without harm (max 20min) for a 777 at 1,000ft MSL over water? BTW, thank you DeltaMD90 and rfields5421 f
367 Post contains links and images Pihero : A bit of French here : A page from my gyroscope Nav manual : The conclusion translates as : At a constant gyro heading (here no wind ) the gyrocompas
368 rfields5421 : A quick web search doesn't reveal the exact Vmo/ Vne speeds of the B777. It should be possible to fly the B777 with minimal flaps at 1,000 ft. Howeve
369 rcair1 : BS. The 777 flies there every time it takes off and lands - and in control and bad conditions. You could not do extreme 'terrain' following type of f
370 MarkAK : Gentlemen, you seem to be getting tangled up with INMARSAT DOPPLER measurements. The arcs or loci are derived from the round trip delay RTD pf the pin
371 aftgaffe : I thought what Mr. Hayward was getting as it that sustained very low level flight at speed would unduly stress the airframe. But besides resulting in
372 65mustang : I think that it is reasonable to expect a good educated guess. The accuracy depends on what premesis are accepted as true and what premises are accep
373 nupogodi : Very interesting post by a user on PPRuNe, 'suninmyeyes'. Answers a couple of questions that people were bickering about regarding what a 777 would do
374 Post contains links WarrenPlatts : Pardon me, but I adjusted your translation just a bit. What your manual doesn't say is that a gyrocompass works precisely because of the Coriolis eff
375 Post contains images 7BOEING7 : Just because you're low 200', 500' whatever doesn't mean the gear/flaps are out -- you could be at Vmo (330kts) at 100' on a one way flight like this
376 aftgaffe : No too low terrain warnings? I would have thought overspeed too but I'll defer to you.
377 SimonDanger : Why didnt I think of that...just run a simulator and save $300 million dollars in expenses! Very interesting write-up in relation to the cascading po
378 7BOEING7 : CB's as mentioned and also gear, flaps and terrain all have override switches.
379 Pihero : That's what I thouight : You're mistaking the Earth precession with the Coriolis effect ( which is jusst a small, very small by-product). *It happens
380 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : Hi All, This thread has gotten long and the next part has been created. It can be found here MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part
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