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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54  
User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 44588 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

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Due to length part 53 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 54:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 31 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50 (by wilco737 Apr 2 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 51 (by wilco737 Apr 6 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53 (by SA7700 Apr 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


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Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
299 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineiberiadc852 From Spain, joined May 2005, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 44090 times:

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 249 Of PART 53)::
Quoting Lizzie (Reply 42 Of PART 53):
This is absolutely terrifying, especially given that it predates MH370:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk1jIKQvMx8

I'm no expert in programming, but this presenter appears to have a cogent argument about how an airliner could be hacked. I'm surprised this theory hasn't been getting more attention.

Regarding that possibility, and trying to fit Occam's Razor, forgive me if this seems to take things too lightly, but.......Doesn't the way MH370 leaves its initial route and then follows the southern route towards nowhere land, seem very much like if someone takes a RADIO-CONTROL Aircraft to a route that gets it "out of reach" and then follows its course till it runs out of fuel?

To fit that theory, would also require to explain the lack of any communication by crew/passengers who could be aware of the situation.
But as I understand from the "hacking aircraft theory", communications from pilots could also be remotely disabled. Can anyone confirm?

And on the other hand, could anyone confirm if from the moment the aircraft changes its course, is it possible that mobile phones would not be serviceable for making calls from then on? (Because of height, etc.)



variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6971 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 43973 times:

I do not believe that anyone could remotely hack into the aircraft's systems, disable all communications (including the transponders) and take over control with the pilots unable to reverse it. And from what I have read the disabling of the engine reporting had to be done in a hatch under the passenger compartment floor. I believe that whatever happened was done by people on board.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4609 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 44043 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 309):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 306):
We're talking about different maps. Someone posted a current upper level winds map regarding the claim that there would be a strong northwesterly upper level wind in the area. I believe you said "Thanks for that!" or something.

Yes, but it was for that day--not March 8th. Still looking for one from that day.

See this one, which I've already posted :

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j261/Pihero/00HR250MBHGTWINDgfsfaxanl0020140308.gif

Time : 00 Z and date :2014.03.08 at the bottom.
See that for the first part of then flight's final journey, the winds are in fact Easterlies blowing at 15 to 20 kt.
That will put your initial plot 75 to 80 kt in error, in other words your trajectory will be, for the first 4 nhours of the southern leg some 300 to 320 nautical miles too far east.
It's only above 20°S that the wind will start picking up speed, thanks to the presence of the Southern polar jetstream.
I found this table that Tim Vasquez did :

LAT / WIND
10S : 090° / 20
15S : 180 / 05
20S : 290 / 30
25S : 290 / 40
30S : 280 / 40
40S : 210 / 45
45S : 230 / 100

The table , alongside another theory I do not subscribe to, can be found :
Here

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 299):
So why don't you just answer the question? What's the matter? Don't you know the answer? Better yet, why don't you dig up an actual high altitude wind map from the day in question and see if we can work together to develop a plausible track consistent with your theory that both pilots were incapacitated. Believe me, that's what I would like to believe as well.

I can read weather maps quite well, thank you. And why should I participate in a theory that I object to ? I'm just giving you facts that contradict all your build-up. You have to do your homework on your own.

What is amazing - to me, at least - is that you all have been given a few possibilities, based on technical knowledge and experience, by people who know very well that an accident investigation is a lot more complex than any scenario conspiracists could ever devise... and have refrained from building one scenario... they just explore a hypothesis.
Zeke did, at least three times.
Kaiarahi presented another set....so did a few others, rc135x - who is no longer with us - tried as well and got spam-bombed for his efforts...
How many did pîck up these hints ? A few, very few more open minds.

The basis - or the excuse - for all the foul play scenarii is the loss of the Xponder, followed by loss of coms and (this time) apparently a reversion to basic autopilot modes HDG/ALT.
As most of the posters on this thread don't really know how an aircraft - let alone a modern airliner - works, they get to the obvious simplistic / biased / paranoid conclusion leaning toward the only people who could have disabled these systems : the pilots !!!, whether on their own through some rather twisted pseudo -psychiatric reasonings, or under duress...

So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

Alright ! Good Night ! (that's a perfectly acceptable sign-off message when one is changing frequency. No sinister meaning involved    )



Contrail designer
User currently online7BOEING7 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 1646 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 43633 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

Yes, and the airplane would have crashed into the sea at that point +/-.


User currently onlineawthompson From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 43539 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
The basis - or the excuse - for all the foul play scenarii is the loss of the Xponder, followed by loss of coms and (this time) apparently a reversion to basic autopilot modes HDG/ALT.
As most of the posters on this thread don't really know how an aircraft - let alone a modern airliner - works, they get to the obvious simplistic / biased / paranoid conclusion leaning toward the only people who could have disabled these systems : the pilots !!!, whether on their own through some rather twisted pseudo -psychiatric reasonings, or under duress...

I think the basis for the 'foul play' possibility comes from more than merely the loss of transponder and loss of comms. For me, what happened afterwards is more compelling, ie, the turn back, the climb, a period of lower flight over the peninsula, a climb back up to the flight levels, at least two more turns at way points, then a route southwards which looks suspiciously like purposeful avoidance of Indonesian radar cover to reach the Indian Ocean. I'm certainly open to hearing other scenarios and will think them through logically also, but I don't believe there has been any other plausible scenario posted yet. Over the various parts in this thread, much discussion has taken place as to whether something else could have caused the various losses. The fire possibility has been suggested, which is possible, but does not explain very well the course of events that have appeared to take place afterwards.

The type of scenario that fits for me is something like that put forward by jpetekyxmd80 at reply 236 in the previous part.


User currently offline777Jet From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 2150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 43402 times:

I was watching a show about the Bermuda Triangle last night and learned that there are other similar areas called 'Vile Vortices' - Ivan Sanderson wrote the article "The Twelve Devil's Graveyards Around the World" in 1972 proposing that there were 12 such areas in the world. One of them, called the 'Wharton Basin', covers the area MH370 is supposedly in. Anyway, I just thought I would mention it as I did not know of these areas that are similar to the Bermuda Triangle and found the show interesting. Here are some links:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ma...ierra/esp_mapa_ocultotierra_11.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vile_Vortices

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharton_Basin



DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788,306,320,321,332/3,346,388
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 42070 times:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

Ivan Sanderson is not to be believed about anything.

He thought there was a 15 foot tall penguin running around Florida, and that the old "stop motion" dinosaur movies involved suits fitted over live chickens...

Quote:
A giant, 15-foot tall penguin, Sanderson concluded, must be the explanation, one which “would obviously have to be a wanderer in Florida, out of its natural element and perhaps lost.”
Quote:
Sanderson also opined on the nature of cinematic illusion, as in this passage from one of his last books More Things chapter 5:

Even in the late 1920s the “dinosaurs” in the film of Conan Doyle’s The Lost World were utterly realistic–close-ups of their heads showed drooling saliva, nictitating membranes, and flashing eyes. (Incidentally, these “dinosaurs” were wearing skillfully constructed “suits” made by a man who had a degree in paleontology, and were fitted over live chickens!)
http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/10/19...nt-penguin%E2%80%9D-hoax-revealed/


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 42024 times:

Quoting awthompson (Reply 5):

It is the timing of the loss of comms that tilts me over to the "crime" side.


User currently offline777Jet From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 2150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 41850 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 7):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

Ivan Sanderson is not to be believed about anything.

I only mentioned it as a question was asked threads and threads ago about if the plane could have gone missing in 'the Bermuda Triangle of Asia'. I was surprised to learn that such a place supposedly exists around the area that searchers are looking for MH370. That is all. Nonetheless, still nothing has been found, and nothing might ever be found, so this could turn out to be a similar mystery to those that have happened in the Bermuda Triangle...



DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788,306,320,321,332/3,346,388
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 41377 times:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 9):

IIRC, none of those "triangles" are real. They all disappear under objective investigation.


User currently offlineBackSeater From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 40169 times:

We should be thankful for the Inmarsat GES process that keeps polling MH370 every hour to determine whether resources allocated to that a/c in the overall transmission plan can be released (i.e. forced logout) so that other a/c can use them.

Otherwise, we might still have the same number of parts in this thread but with a majority of the posts based on the Bermuda triangle...


User currently offlineFinn350 From Finland, joined Jul 2013, 688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 40087 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

I don't think that the factual information we have supports the hypothesis that the comms were disabled and the pilots incapacitated at the same time.

The first anomaly (transponder off) was at 01:22 am Malaysian time. According to the Inmarsat Burst Frequency Offset chart, the sharp turn to the southern Indian Ocean occurred at around 2:30 am Malaysian time.

It thus appears that someone was actively controlling the plane at 02:30 am, that is 1 hour 10 minutes after the first anomaly.

Is it possible that the turn at 02:30 am was pre-programmed by the pilots as an emergency procedure and the pilots were incapacitated long before? Yes, it is possible but very hard to explain.

Is it possible that there was a cascading failure disabling the pilots only after 1 hour 10 minutes after the first anomaly? Yes, it is possible, but again very hard to explain.

And this consideration does not even take into account that the failure mode to support the hypothesis must be extremley remote due to the built-in redundacy in the aircraft electric & communications equipment. Also very hard to explain that the failure mode allowed the plane to fly 7+ hours after the first anomaly.

I personally find a pilot suicide (or whatever you call deliberate actions of one of the pilots) the most likely explanation considering the factual information available.

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:18:30]

User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 39857 times:

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):
The first anomaly (transponder off) was at 00:41 am Malaysian time

01:22 MYT / 17:22UTC, actually.

It was 41 minutes into the flight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi...ight_370#Timeline_of_disappearance

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:14:41]

User currently offlineFinn350 From Finland, joined Jul 2013, 688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 39798 times:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 13):
01:22 MYT / 17:22UTC, actually.

Thanks for the correction. It does not change the thrust of the argument.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9176 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 39503 times:

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):
I personally find a pilot suicide (or whatever you call deliberate actions of one of the pilots) the most likely explanation considering the factual information available.

Or it could just be the pilots O2 bottles ran out and they were overcome by smoke. The minimum amount of oxygen allowed to be dispatched with non-etops is not that great, don know the 777 number off hand, it could be an hour. When under stress you go through more.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6368 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 39380 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Getting the Bermuda Triangle (or any other triangle) involved in this thread would be a new low as far as I´m concerned. Comparable to the eternal question of why the drier makes your white socks disappear.

Let us steer away from that path please.


User currently offlineNAV30 From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 464 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 39331 times:
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Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 8):
It is the timing of the loss of comms that tilts me over to the "crime" side.

I've been thinking about that. The 'key moment' appears to have been immediately after the First Officer signed off from Malaysian ATC. He didn't apparently check in to the next ATC, which is normal - instead the aircraft appears to have turned back towards Malaysia. But he (or the captain) did not sign back in to Malaysian ATC?

That could have been due to 'pilot error' (though that's very unlikely, I believe that 'signing in' is ingrained among all transport pilots), or a major cockpit problem putting the radio out of action, or the onset of a hijack?

Unfortunately, unless that submarine can work a miracle and find the wreck, we may never know which it was?

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:56:26]

User currently offlineFinn350 From Finland, joined Jul 2013, 688 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 38589 times:

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 19):
Does look as if the pilots (or possible hijackers) were still in control? But they apparently couldn't (or wouldn't, if hijackers were involved) communicate by radio?

The problem with all the hijacking scenarios is the turning off the ACARS communications paths.

Any hijacker could have instructed the pilots to turn off the transponder. But to have knowledge about the ACARS communications paths and how to turn them off requires an experienced 777 pilot. Even on this forum it was the belief for several days after the incident that disabling ACARS requires access to the E/E bay, despite the fact that there are several professional pilots here.

In my opinion, this fact alone makes the hijacking scenarios extremely unlikely.


User currently offline777Jet From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 2150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 38191 times:

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 11):
We should be thankful for the Inmarsat GES process that keeps polling MH370 every hour to determine whether resources allocated to that a/c in the overall transmission plan can be released (i.e. forced logout) so that other a/c can use them.

Otherwise, we might still have the same number of parts in this thread but with a majority of the posts based on the Bermuda triangle...

I'm sure the authorities are thankful to Inmarsat that the area they have to search and find pieces of a plane sitting under silt on the sea floor some 4000m deep is now less than a few hundred thousand kms sq... Perhaps the 'polling' should occur more frequently as a result of MH370...???

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
Getting the Bermuda Triangle (or any other triangle) involved in this thread would be a new low as far as I´m concerned.

As I previously said the Bermuda Triangle was already mentioned threads ago (in case that part of the post was not read or appeared in a different language). Somebody asked if something similar could have happened here so I thought I'd share those links as it looks like a similar area exists in the area where people believe MH370 is. So if nothing is found in a few weeks, months, years or possibly never, then you had better not keep checking in these threads as you might fall off of your high horse when you see the Bermuda Triangle getting more mentions...  



DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788,306,320,321,332/3,346,388
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6368 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 38059 times:
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Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
As I previously said the Bermuda Triangle was already mentioned threads ago (in case that part of the post was not read or appeared in a different language).

Strange. Since I have read every single post in these 54 threads so far and I have never heard of the Bermuda Triangle or any other geographic/geometric association to MH#370 yet. Do you know there is the "Adriatic sea Triangle too"? As for it appearing in a different language, I doubt it, as the Mods would have deleted it, or I would have probably understood it anyway, given I speak several, fluently.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
So if nothing is found in a few weeks, months, years or possibly never, then you had better not keep checking in these threads as you might fall off of your high horse when you see the Bermuda Triangle getting more mentions..

No high horse of mine, really, maybe just a pony, but I humbly wanted to point out that introducing things as triangles, and unexplained disappearances in the past due to these so called, silent/dead zones as a possible hypothesis for this current accident are preposterous at best and ridiculous at the minimum.

I´m off now to Non-Av, there are some things about the Loch Ness monster I wish to discuss.  


User currently offlineLandSweetLand From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 37484 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
I´m off now to Non-Av, there are some things about the Loch Ness monster I wish to discuss.

Such as whether it alternates its flippers while swimming or keeps them synchronised? (assuming it has flippers of course)

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
I'm sure the authorities are thankful to Inmarsat that the area they have to search and find pieces of a plane sitting under silt on the sea floor some 4000m deep

Possibly on the side of one of the numerous hills/ridges etc.

At least if the hull is in large sections they could possibly just put those floatation balloons inside it and raise it that way. At least with machinery there's no risk of getting the bends.


User currently offlineLizzie From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2014, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 37474 times:

Quoting awthompson (Reply 5):
I think the basis for the 'foul play' possibility comes from more than merely the loss of transponder and loss of comms. For me, what happened afterwards is more compelling, ie, the turn back, the climb, a period of lower flight over the peninsula, a climb back up to the flight levels, at least two more turns at way points, then a route southwards which looks suspiciously like purposeful avoidance of Indonesian radar cover to reach the Indian Ocean.

I agree. To me, as I said earlier, the inferred sequence of events suggest intelligence but not necessarily intentional processes - by which a mean with any long-term goal.

As the plane has an "intelligent" computer system on board, something going wrong with that "intelligent" system could look like "intentional" behaviour, but in fact be a cascade of dependent errors - or a cascade of human decisions each an attempt to correct the current error, none of which have the ultimate goal of wrecking the aircraft (in fact all of which have the ultimate goal of saving it).

Or it could be an intelligently malign hack. That presentation I linked to implies that someone with a phone could hack the FMS while the aeroplane was still in communication with the ground, and upload an alternative flight-plan that could be triggered when the plane got to IGARI or some other point. Which would be cheaper for a terrorist organisation than spending a whole terrorist.

I'm going to say a word for behavioural science here: I know "armchair psychiatry" can be annoying, but it's actually no less "scientific" than any other realm of trying to make sense of limited data, whether we are trying to find out what the weather was like at dawn on the 8th of March in the South Indian ocean, or what the round trip was for a satellite ping at that time.

Psychiatry sounds "soft" but it's only soft because we have so many damn variables. That's why we use probability distributions! And, weirdly, we do have probability distributions even for bizarre behaviours like flying planes into solid objects on purpose.


User currently offlineDalavia From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 549 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 37542 times:

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 24):
Or it could be an intelligently malign hack. That presentation I linked to implies that someone with a phone could hack the FMS while the aeroplane was still in communication with the ground, and upload an alternative flight-plan that could be triggered when the plane got to IGARI or some other point.

I finally managed to watch the video that you linked.

On one hand, it seems even more unlikely than the shadowing scenarios that were being thrown around, but on the other hand, I can't get it out of my mind. This was a reputable speaker at a reputable international conference demonstrating this scenario in April 2013, not as a theory but as a practical action.

The reason I can't get it out of my mind is that it overcomes many of the shortcomings of other theories that still lie on the "more likely" end of speculation. It takes away all the speculation about pilot suicide, fights in the cockpit, hypoxia, a fire early on a seven hour flight, and so on. And yet, on the other hand, it seems so hard to believe it could happen - even though it was demonstrated at the computer security conference that it is not only possible but fairly easy.

Please note that I am not for a moment advocating this scenario, but I wish someone could convince me that it is less likely than fires, suicides, and so on, because at the moment I wouldn't dismiss this possibility (nor, frankly, any other, given the lack of hard data we have).


User currently offlineLizzie From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2014, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 36906 times:

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 25):
Please note that I am not for a moment advocating this scenario, but I wish someone could convince me that it is less likely than fires, suicides, and so on, because at the moment I wouldn't dismiss this possibility (nor, frankly, any other, given the lack of hard data we have).

Me too.

It's important to remember are looking at an extremely rare event (frequency = 1 in the history of civil aviation, i.e. p=1/gazillion.

And very rare events have very "improbable" i.e., in a frequentist sense, rare, causes.

So there is no good reason to dismiss any scenario as too "improbable" simply on the basis that it's never happened before. Neither has this.

So the best criteria for viability are, firstly, whether a scenario is possible, and, if possible, what else we we need to posit for it to happen, i.e. parsimony

We know there are terrorists who like to kill lots of people by crashing planes (many examples, sadly).

We know there are hackers capable of risking the lives of other people by messing with their computers (many examples of that too, sadly).

And there is at least some evidence that a malign hacker could possibly do this, by phone, from the ground, before contact was lost, and setting up the trigger for the desired sequence of events to be, say, reaching some waypoint (e.g. IGARI).

Therefore IMO, it's a perfectly viable hypothesis. And the fact that it was proposed a priori (before MH370), including the waypoint trigger, not cobbled together after the event, makes my Bayesian neck-hairs rise.


25 Post contains links Finn350 : According to the FAA, the scenario you describe does not work on real planes: http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/11/fa...tphone-airplane-hack-is-a-proble
26 Dalavia : Thank you. Assuming the FAA is right, I can probably cross this hypothesis off my list (although Hugo Teso said in his talk that he was almost certai
27 Post contains images Kaiarahi : [quote=The handshake occurred at 0019Z. Okay. It would be 0019Z in the search zone too at the time. That's sort-of the point of UTC.[/quote] Duhhh, of
28 Lizzie : I don't find that very persuasive. The guy deliberately designed it NOT to work on real planes. He said so. Clearly it would be the height of irrespo
29 art : I don't know any hackers but I get the impression that personality-wise they seek admiration from their peers to boost their egos at the cost of othe
30 Lizzie : Not sure what you are asking. Obviously I think it's "highly irresponsible" to cause damage to systems on which people's lives depend. And doing so d
31 Post contains links wingbuff : Gotta hand it to the ballsiness of the Russians, making such outrageous allegations http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...istan-russian-intelligence-
32 rfields5421 : This was very much what the retired USAF general was promoting on US networks in the first couple weeks after the plane disappeared. That the plane w
33 Post contains links art : Sorry, but your perception of irresponsibilty seems very contained to me. How serious do the ramifications of hackers' actions need to be to qualify
34 Post contains links NAV30 : Search zone now apparently reduced to 340 sq. kms. On the other hand, the black boxes appear to have fallen silent. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2
35 Lizzie : I'm not sure where you are getting your idea of my "perception of irresponsibility". Perhaps you misread one of my posts. ETA: it occurs to me that y
36 wingbuff : Even if they did fly over to Afghan territories, somebody in India, Pakistan and the surrounding regions would've surely noticed them and reported. P
37 art : Apologies, I did not read enough about this.
38 Post contains links Lizzie : However, more convincing to me than the FAA, is the opinion of Hugo Teso himself: No, I don't think the MH370 was hacked I spent the last days talking
39 Post contains images Lizzie : No problem
40 Pihero : It would be really helpful if you posted what youy call *facts* to back up your argument Same as above. Let's say we do agree on this very aspect of
41 Finn350 : I suppose you mean from IGARI at 17:22 Z + 01.06 = 18.28 Z. And you probably mean 17:22 Z + 01:29 = 18:51 Z. And finally: 3.1 Time at Povus = 18:33 Z
42 Lizzie : Has anyone yet offered an explanation as to why the Doppler "evidence for sharp turns" should apparently right-handed turns? Am I miss understanding t
43 vnangia : Indeed. In fact, when the northern corridor was still an option, and later when Duncan Steele & Co were still claiming the Inmarsat data proved n
44 Post contains images Pihero : My apologies. Times are corrected now. So please elaborate... *probably* is no longer acceptable with the data above of the facts that the pàlane ha
45 Finn350 : Yes, you are right, I don't have competence to calculate whether the plane would be safely west of Indonesia out of the radar range at 18:30 Z if it
46 COEWR787 : The US Seawolf Class submarines have a test depth of 490m (1600 feet). Of those Jimmy Carter reportedly is equipped with the ability to launch and re
47 Pihero : So, first question : What was he doing there ? Second question : Can't you really see another explanation ? Third question : Is that really what I sa
48 art : Since we are moving towards the time at which the ULB's fall silent, can anyone list what capabilities there are to detect metallic submarine debris
49 Post contains links PanAmPaul : Authorities reported they are widening the search area (after having narrowed it down) today after 5 days without pings. Flight 370 Search Zone Widens
50 Post contains links jaylink : If it helps for visualizing IGARI, GUNIP, VAMPI, NILAM, POVUS, and IGREX: IGARI: http://opennav.com/waypoint/SG/IGARI GUNIP: http://opennav.com/waypoi
51 Finn350 : 1. If we knew, we would probably not be wondering here. 2. I can't, if you refer to the sharp turn at 18:30 Z and somebody executing the turn. 3. I w
52 gatorman96 : Not sure, but you could always forward the message to a mod. This member has been pretty abrasive in these threads so I'm sure a ban isn't far away,
53 aftgaffe : Honest questions: (1) is it possible for a fire or other malfunction to take out ACARS, comms, transponder (with emphasis on ACARS) but not a/p? (2) A
54 DeltaMD90 : Just because this event (MH370) is extremely rare doesn't mean that extremely improbable events are more likely to have happen. Outlandish scenarios
55 nupogodi : Since the actual aviation security researcher said that it's incredibly improbable, which is completely in line with all of what I said after watching
56 canoecarrier : And how would anyone on the ground communicate with the plane to do that? It would have to be by satellite. There would would be a record of it if th
57 sipadan : wait…how is it 'normal' to have not checked back in with ATC?? and, CNN's Nic Robertson has now reported numerous times that 5 Malaysian airlines p
58 DeltaMD90 : This is an interesting piece of evidence (if true, I'm just taking your word for it now) but don't let that lead you to any conclusions. It could be
59 nupogodi : Handoffs over sea aren't terribly time-critical from how I understand it (but there's no reason not to do it right away), but it's not a big deal sin
60 Kaiarahi : I've asked this before, but MH370 appeared to be in the SIN SSR at the time communications and the transponder became disabled (neutral word). Why wer
61 Lizzie : Which is why I didn't say they should be. What I said was: "So the best criteria for viability are, firstly, whether a scenario is possible, and, if
62 sipadan : whoa…you cannot categorically say that the 'whole thing is irrelevant'. What about the 'coincidence' of who's communicating with whom, and WHEN? WH
63 DTW2HYD : Is it normal to ask few guys to listen and identify voice? They could have turned the ATC audio and a known sample of both to FBI for voice analysis.
64 DeltaMD90 : Could be for a multitude of benign reasons. Have you ever been in a cockpit of a multicrew airplane? (Not saying that to be condescending, just askin
65 Post contains images nupogodi : I don't think we're on the same page here I said that handoffs sometimes maybe take some time, especially when everyone has your plan and is expectin
66 BackSeater : To Pihero: I would like to ask a couple of questions to try to clarify our respective foundations. In your post 284 of thread 53, in response to a pos
67 sipadan : yeah…sorry for the misunderstanding. yeah, of course it COULD be for a multitude of reasons…but I simply don't believe that to be the case in thi
68 Kaiarahi : And if that proves not to be the case, I hope that you will be one of the first to apologize publicly to his family. In August, 2011, a First Air 732
69 DeltaMD90 : Exactly! But it alone cannot accuse him. That is not to say it is worthless evidence. If there is a hypothesis that is supported by much evidence tha
70 sipadan : yes, I very much will be. And, in fact, if it proves that he is not at all complicit in this 'incident' (let's call it what it is, a mass slaughter)
71 Lizzie : The hypothesis of pilot intention isn't going to go away just because it isn't welcome. I can't help thinking that heroic but futile attempts to save
72 abba : Ethics are not primarily personal, but social as ethics is about - among other things - how we relate and act in relation to each other.
73 BA84 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Midland_Flight_092
74 Lizzie : That's the one. It's amazing there were so many survivors, when you look at the wreckage. And no-one killed on the motorway either.
75 sipadan : yes, and??? We have a body of rules, regulations and laws that attempt to ensure a society which functions optimally and properly. Within this constr
76 Post contains images Pihero : I'm not going to answer that. You have to find it by yourself, the reason being it could lead to an endless discussion on my scenario. So, do your ow
77 Post contains links and images Finn350 : Are you referring to the 00:11Z locus here (as that is the only one that has been made public as far as I know)? Backseater refers to this image: Mil
78 canoecarrier : I wouldn't hold your breath. This series of threads has not improved the quality of this forum. I'm sure the folks over at the other forum named afte
79 sipadan : [/quote] I believe I said, as ANYONE can see plain as day, that we are a society governed by laws!!! What is your point, for I seem to missing it? Do
80 FLY744 : Yep, the crazies are alive and well there too! The worst part is that not only do they vote, but they procreate as well.
81 sipadan : perhaps this 'tenacity' that you allude to has a tinge more justification and substance behind it than you and certain others posting here care to co
82 Kaiarahi : How about this? But then what do I know - I'm just a former law professor. Just like Pihero has 40 years experience flying commercial aircraft and tr
83 Lizzie : It's inevitable that something so strange and unprecedented will attract new members to your forum, and that discussion of this incident won't come u
84 Kaiarahi : No - it's a very good thing. But when highly respected members whose knowledge and expertise have been demonstrated over the course of years are desc
85 Post contains images Lizzie : OK, fair enough, I missed that. Touch of paranoia I guess
86 sipadan : What, specifically, would 'most legal philosophers' disagree with about the general implication behind this assertion. If you are going to claim such
87 Kaiarahi : Yep - I have an agenda. It's called evidence. And statistical probability. For example, there have been exactly 4 likely incidents of pilot suicide o
88 Kaiarahi : Sure! You could start by reading Aristotle, then read Kant's deontological theory of law, and finish with Ronald Dworkin's exposition of legal interp
89 Lizzie : But there are other factors that affect the probabilities in this case. What seems fairly clear is that a lot of the behaviour of the aircraft - chan
90 prebennorholm : No, you are wrong. Pihero didn't say that. You are quoting only part of a sentence, giving it a totally different meaning by bypassing all the condit
91 sipadan : finished…I believe that was in undergrad…and when you finish Cicero and Hume and Rousseau, give me a holler as well, and then we can discuss. And
92 747megatop : Journalists are professionals who should be basing their stories on facts and research based on facts. They should be reporting what has happened and
93 Pihero : With Finn350's post ( Thanks !), that *radar contact* was positioned at 200nm from Butterworth on the radial 285. See if it fits any of nthe trajecto
94 sipadan : here is the entire quote…please show how I misrepresented what was said? What is not accurate? What are 'all the conditions which Pihero wrote in t
95 WingedMigrator : That's a difficult question to answer without detailed knowledge of the physical and functional architecture of the 777 avionics. The relevant factor
96 Kaiarahi : Nope. I know what I don't know - and I'm happy to learn from those who do know. This maybe ... For somebody who claims to be familiar with Kant, you
97 sipadan : despicable is a strong, strong word. In fact, Captain Shah had a fondness, as apparent to whoever bothered to read his many political harangues and d
98 sipadan : accept you left off the last part of the quote, so the lack of precision seems to be a problem that you struggle with as well.
99 Kaiarahi : In the opinion of many members of a.net. You may want to check your respect rating (0) against Pihero's (76). It's called evidence.
100 YoungMans : They say that..: 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..!'
101 Kaiarahi : You asked (in your own words): So, I responded. Did you forget what you asked? I'm going back to building my spherical staircase - helix ceiling meet
102 nupogodi : Hey, this might be silly, but I just want to let you know that you're hypercorrecting here. Scenarii might be the plural in Italian or by extension F
103 art : Interesting form of words.
104 Post contains images 777Jet : I'd just reply in a similar way, maybe taking it up one notch I would love to get such a message, but the only ones I get are from others thanking me
105 11Bravo : I generally agree with your points here on the forum, but your suggestion that someone's RR is evidence of support and validity is troublesome. The R
106 Post contains links FLY744 : I am intrigued that today's sonar buoy search area seems to have been moved back to where the Chinese first reported hearing pings suspected being fr
107 Post contains links 777Jet : Well said. Is it also the Ocean Shield that will deploy the Bluefin-21? It looks like the Media is getting very desperate: http://news.ninemsn.com.au
108 kurtjeter : Gosh, guys, since we all just can't "get along," . . . all in favor of just ignoring Sipadan ....?
109 DTW2HYD : It appears China is thinking of deploying their manned deep-sea submersible Jiaolong. Jiaolong and its mother ship, Xiang Yang Hong 9, are docked at t
110 hivue : Concerning this whole event absolutely everything --claims, evidence and anything else you care to name -- is extraordinary. Lizzie appears partial t
111 ltbewr : I am becoming very concerned as to the loss of MH370 if we will ever come to an understanding of what happened and why. The apparent death of the CVR/
112 DeltaMD90 : Not really... I wouldn't consider a mechanical failure or a hijacking/suicide "extraordinary." Rare, yes, but not extraordinary. Some of the claims t
113 777Jet : I'm not sure what type of equipment China has in terms of what is required for this type of mission, but, given all the noise China has made and give
114 sipadan : ah, yes, the mighty untouchables. Unassailable information, teflon by default, for it is us, the almighty ones. To be so jaded by status, status, sta
115 Dalavia : For a week now we have had the small (600 sq.km) sonobuoy search area that is far away from two larger search areas to the WNW. I understand the need
116 Kaiarahi : I've suggested several possibilities - all backed up by statistical evidence. Ignorance - please enlighten me! Cicero - whom you profess to be conver
117 Post contains images 777Jet : Given that you said (below): And, you miss-quoted me (below) when in fact it was not me making the RR comparison (it was Kaiarahi) which I disagreed
118 sipadan : yes, I REALLY am a physician. And I am someone that lived in Malaysia for 5 years. Speculation is at times called for as a sort of tertiary component
119 BackSeater : "Piloted by some entity theory": may be the smoking gun? The snapshot of the slide I initially worked from to build my theory of a climb from very low
120 747megatop : I second that. If we don't then it is going to spiral out of control and mods are going to lock this thread probably.
121 sipadan : yes…that quote was inadvertently attributed to you and it was unintentional and I apologize. I've been posting on here since the very beginning of
122 777Jet : I too have had a few 'emotional exchanges' in these MH370 threads. I have been browsing this site for years but it was something about the MH370 inci
123 Kaiarahi : Some have earned respect for years of knowlegable, expert and informed responses. Some haven't.
124 Post contains images vnangia : x 1000
125 Post contains links YoungMans : Maybe it’s time to bring in at least a little bit of humour into what is otherwise a very tragic saga. If you go to these sites ... http://galacticc
126 LTC8K6 : Yes. Let's all calm down and remember that there were 239 people on that plane, with families wondering and waiting. We all want the same thing. Spec
127 KBUF : Australian authorities holding a press conference right now. It's on CNN.
128 moose135 : And I think everyone needs to step back, take a breath, and consider the direction this thread is going and how they are contributing to it. The newb
129 Post contains links Dalavia : It is also just starting now on ABC News 24. http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
130 laxboeingman : MAIN POINTS FROM WHAT I HEARD (Sorry if I am missing anything): He said that an oil slick was found, but it will take about two days before it gets to
131 Post contains links LTC8K6 : http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-1...derwater-vessel-to-be-sent/5388550 Coverage of the presser.
132 Post contains images 11Bravo : We may be in for a very, very long search before we see any results. I hope those pings last week were real and I hope they got some kind of ballpark
133 Post contains links PanAmPaul : Angus Houston now says that the search for the black boxes is over and it's time ot go underwater. He also reported an oil slick was found. Flight 370
134 Dalavia : On the positive side, while acknowledging it will take a couple of days to analyse the oil slick, he did say that it was thought that the oil slick h
135 NAV30 : Pretty comprehensive summary of the current situation here. Among other things, it says that the remote-control sub will take about 24 hours for each
136 canoecarrier : If the plane supposedly ran out of fuel how much unburned fuel could be left to create an oil slick big enough to last 38 days and a few storms?
137 BackSeater : I think Angus Houston said that they took a 2 litre sample to be analyzed on land.
138 Finn350 : I would suppose engine oil lasts longer than aviation jet fuel, but let's see what the analysis tells us. According to the article, the submersible c
139 nupogodi : What little Jet A1 was there would have evaporated by now. The oil slick would be something else.
140 NAV30 : Might be longer, Finn350. I read somewhere that the sub can carry EITHER sonar OR cameras, but not both together!
141 Finn350 : Yes, but as I understand it they will use sonar to find the wreckage (hopefully) and then switch to cameras. Apparently some parts of the underwater
142 nupogodi : Unless they get lucky, we'll be here a while.
143 Lizzie : I listed them in my post, and you quoted them in yours. There's an intelligent system aright, but - my question - Was it still being controlled or wa
144 Pihero : But I do know, but I don't nreally care about uninformed abuse of the words : like*data* is the plural of *datum*, *loci* is the plural of *locus*...
145 Post contains images nupogodi : And fish is the plural of fish! English is weird, but in the case of "scenario", it does stick to traditional rules. There are more exceptions than t
146 Lizzie : Yes, exactly. I'm not a physician, but I am a scientist, and I've been trying to make the same point - that science (or diagnostics) is an iterative
147 BackSeater : May I suggest you buy a guide to French pronunciation or a copy of the Beycherelle!
148 YoungMans : Yes, any Jet A1 (i.e. kerosene) would have definitely evaporated and dispersed by now in the conditions where they are working. Any oil slick is inde
149 Pihero : Thanks for posting this recap of the bases for the *foul play* scenari. Question : do they hold any credibility when faced with the very very simple
150 Pihero : Lady, do you think I posted the simplistic architecture above just to be a wise ass ? In this case, psychology or not, you totally miss my point. It
151 LandSweetLand : So now that the pingers have gone silent, do you think they'll let other boats back in to drop their own drones?
152 Post contains images alfa164 : Lets admit that the most adamant commentators here all come with a particular bias. I have never known anyone whose background is piloting a plane (a
153 seat55a : Pihero, this isn't really fair to 99.9% of the readers of this thread. Speaking only for myself I cannot do the research you propose, because I do no
154 BackSeater : 333kts is a simple approximation, using the law of cosines to correct for the 16 degrees between the two radials, we would get an average speed of 35
155 Pihero : Your answer is in the firsqt part of the flight. Time from take off to 35000. It's there for all to see.
156 BackSeater : Yes, except that: - there was more jet fuel on board - when you fly commercially, I assume you have recommended engine settings, better fuel economy,
157 Post contains images Pihero : I respect your honesty... but it isn't shared by verybody on this thread. ..which is, according to my little diagram, addressing only the first - and
158 Finn350 : I strongly believe that the image showing the military radar plot is genuine and the green track shows MH370 radar echoes that night. Any scenario we
159 Pihero : Come on ! The aircraft reached 35000 ft less than 20 minutes after takeoff : average 1750 ft/min That's with a heavy aircraft, a level acceleration f
160 Pihero : Having seen live what military radars can do and what an operator's screen look like, I'd tend to disagree. A blip is a very definite pinpoint and a
161 Post contains links wingbuff : http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...aysia-airlines-flight-live-3219331 "A survey of Malaysians in the wake of the search for the missing flight MH3
162 Lizzie : Yes, I am almost certainly missing your point, as you are almost certainly missing mine. But if someone misses your point, accusing them of assuming
163 seat55a : Perhaps I misunderstood, but when someone says "work it out for yourself" this often means "I think I know." For the other aspects there are some bas
164 Post contains links art : The word "scenario" isn't Latin. It's Italian, was imported into English in the nineteenth century and uses an anglicised plural with the suffix "s".
165 NAV30 : Lizzie, it certainly looks as if the aeroplane was being flown by a human pilot up near Malaysia. But autopilots are designed so that, in the absence
166 Lizzie : Yes indeed. That is what it looks like.
167 alfa164 : Then... please explain why you think why someone would have placed it in that course-to-nowhere? If the pilot(s) - whoever that might have been at th
168 Post contains links LandSweetLand : I know it was mentioned earlier on (I think it was somewhere back around part 20) that if left to its own devices the plane would roll to the side, d
169 Finn350 : To me the plot looks like there are hundreds of individual small green 'blips', and the 'blurring' of the track might reflect the positional variatio
170 Lizzie : I don't think anyone has an explanation at this point. Which leaves us with unexplained human behaviour, or plane behaviour that looks like human beh
171 Post contains links and images BackSeater : I really hope I can convince everyone interested that the Military Radar Plot shown in Beijing is not only genuine but also a crucial item in the sea
172 Post contains images p51tang : Very perspicacious of you good sir!. (the drinks trolly is on me) Here's my take: Everything up front is NORMAL.No unnecessary Mojo.Nothing is planne
173 Kaiarahi : Please provide the evidence for this.
174 Lizzie : Probably pointing out that this quotation from Warren Platt's post was pulled out of his backside. Wouldn't like anyone to google it and think it was
175 LandSweetLand : I think the atheist angle keeps getting brought up to stop people claiming it was another Islamic terrorist attack. Without bothering to research, I'
176 UALWN : "In hominem dicemdum est igitur, cum oratio argumentationem non habet." Pro Flacco, 10, 23.
177 Post contains links Pihero : Oh ! Please, Pleeeeeease ! Put these four points alongside my little simplistic diagram. you're close to my point. ... and put them - and it - alongs
178 Pihero : Never accused anyone of that crime. Was only talking to myself. ...Whatever...
179 NAV30 : Oh dear............. Another thread on an important subject that is now going nowhere............
180 Speedbird128 : Different theories about. Poor crew. Poor pax.[Edited 2014-04-14 07:31:39]
181 JHwk : That's my interpretation as well. Presumably at the circle they are too low to be seen by radar. If my trig is still working, that would put the plan
182 Post contains images Pihero : and at 89 nm before you tag it, does it look like Ali Baba's lamp ?
183 Post contains images Lizzie : As you had quoted my post, and addressed it "Lady..." I mistakenly assumed you were talking to me Serves me right for abrogating to myself a form of
184 Post contains images comorin : Hey noobies, Pihero is perfectly aware of the plural of "scenario". It's a bit of an inside joke on a.net to refer to plurals with the suffix "-ii", a
185 nupogodi : I guess you mean noobii then.
186 Kaiarahi : And a shout out to rcair1 for his summaries in the first 30 threads.
187 Post contains links Summa767 : For anyone who may be interested, Duncan Steel's blog has got some nice updated images. These, from the 10th April, provide different perspectives on
188 Post contains images UALWN : Summaries that somebody also found "self-indulgent" or something like that.
189 WarrenPlatts : Nor does being an atheist make one any less likely to be a suicidal terrorist versus a theist--Richard Dawkins' cargo cult, junk science notwithstand
190 Trin : You will not find the cockpit of a commercial airliner WITHOUT paper charts and maps always to hand in it. Sorry.
191 WarrenPlatts : Don't forget about 7BOEING7....
192 Lizzie : Statistically, it arguably does. And being an admirer of someone who has specifically condemned suicidal terrorism, makes it even less likely IMO. Pe
193 WarrenPlatts : Citation needed....
194 mouldypete : The use of, "Fact is" and "I(n)M(y)O(pinion)" in the same phrase is perhaps symptomatic of junk science too?
195 UALWN : Motive to commit suicide? I'm very pissed off with the Spanish government right now. Beware of my next flights... "Junk science" really? "Clinton Ric
196 nupogodi : Anyone else getting really tired of the "would he or wouldn't he based on the fact he liked Dawkins" thing? Plenty of people like Dawkins. Yes the air
197 DeltaMD90 : I think the whole Dawkins thing is silly too. Killing a bunch of innocent people is exactly the opposite of what Dawkins would want. That's not to say
198 Lizzie : I can think of a large number of suicidal terrorists attacks by people in the name of religion. To those we might add the Japanese kamikaze attacks,
199 Lizzie : Yes, exactly. That's why I linked to Dawkins' article on how evil the 9/11 attack was. But WarrenPlatts by some strange turn of logic seemed to think
200 Lizzie : Yes. me for instance. And the reason I even brought it up in the first place is that Dawkins is outspokenly anti-suicidal terrorist. Nobody is even a
201 Lizzie : And a Dawkins apologist? You aren't piloting any Turkish Air flights between BHX and IST in May are you?
202 BackSeater : Military radar plot: can you believe that even that chart has one error? Those of you that may be hoping for that chart to go away, don't bet on it. I
203 LTC8K6 : I am wondering why few flight path maps show the right turn made by 9M-MRO prior to disappearance? FR24 reflects the normal right turn to 40 degrees b
204 Post contains links laddb : CNN is now reporting the old Breaking News of the co-pilot's phone trying to connect to a tower. Evidently confirmed by someone in the US close to the
205 Finn350 : I think the image you are referring to is not an official image. It might be something that the Chinese might have made for themselves and it is not
206 DTW2HYD : As Bill Maher puts it "Broken News". Do any one know why CNN gets news very late compared to MSNBC and FoxNews. I was thinking DoD sources first hint
207 Finn350 : I think the 'breaking' part is that an U.S. official confirms it and it is a cell-tower detection. Based on the Malaysian newspaper story it was impo
208 Lizzie : I keep asking this! Also the big turn from the BFO data (assumed to be a southward turn) seems to be a right turn, which is odd (to me) for a plane t
209 WarrenPlatts : Are you sure the a/c turned back from waypoint IGARI at 17:22 Z? By my reckoning, IGARI is only 260 nm from Kuala Lampur. But the takeoff time was 14
210 LTC8K6 : I think FR24 is likely correct and the normal right turn had started. I believe 9M-MRO was on a 40 degree heading when it disappeared. If you wanted
211 Finn350 : Take-off was 16:41 Z, or 00:41 Malaysian time.
212 Post contains links 747megatop : I am quoting an exchange i had with DeltaMD90 in thread 53 (in fact i had exchanged views with quite a few others in thread 53) about the possibility
213 Finn350 : I think the Malaysian story implied that the FO's phone signed off the cellular network before the plane took off, so if the story is accurate it wou
214 fotoflyer71 : Chuckle....
215 BackSeater : That's an "official" interesting angle on low level flying. If you are flying very low over land, it is unlikely that you will get a call through, pr
216 Kaiarahi : IF the story is accurate, ever heard of pocket dialing? It's not done consciously.
217 soulbarn : I've been lurking here a lot and just joined mostly as a way to thank a.net for the bandwidth and expertise. I have to say that I've found the group d
218 Finn350 : We are talking about a mobile phone switching on or switching out of airplane mode. I don't know any mobile phone that could do either of those just
219 Kaiarahi : Switching on - yes. Mine's done it occasionally. Switching out of airline mode is unlikely.
220 WarrenPlatts : Actually, I've been informed by a reliable source (my daughter) that the GPSs on smart phones still work, even if you're in an out of service area, s
221 Finn350 : Out of curiosity, what is your phone make and model?
222 Kaiarahi : The phone that did it was a Bberry Bold 9900 - button on the face below the screen. You had to hold it down to switch off, but it was a one touch to
223 747megatop : On another note, does anyone know if the unmanned submersibles have technology to detect FDR,CVR and other wreckage buried in silt on the sea floor? O
224 nupogodi : Technically she is correct (the best kind of correct!), GPS would have no trouble. Map graphics are streamed over a data connection though. You would
225 Post contains links aftgaffe : Is this true of the A380 too? I've always wondered exactly how "paperless" a "paperless cockpit" is. This doesn't specify, but I suspect it's focused
226 Pihero : What getting lost hypothesis ?
227 Theredbaron : At this time all these info seems like a desperate attempt to fit something to current data. Agree. Now I think we need a SANITY check about facts...
228 BackSeater : If there are any pilots left on this thread in spite of the endless yet sterile tug-of-war about murder-suicides, I sure would like to know what you t
229 desh : Apologies - I have not read the last few threads , so sorry if this has been discussed before. From what I understand this plane could be in a really
230 Trin : Probably because they are the only U.S. news 'source' (or should that be 'news' source?) that actually makes a half-hearted attempt to corroborate th
231 nupogodi : The papers are still there, just the digital flight bag is also certified to be used for operations... Practically speaking it's an iPad. An iPad 2 w
232 fotoflyer71 : CNN's Martin Savidge still logging time in a sweatbox in Ontario - what a waste! Maybe he's going to get a B777 type rating out of this...
233 nupogodi : Heh, even worse, he's in *suburban* Ontario. I'm sure he's in a fancy hotel downtown though.
234 Post contains links 747megatop : I remember posting this info on the AF 447 threads a long time ago http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Flight_Data_Recorder_(FDR) Current Survivabilit
235 DTW2HYD : Paid for a month, you will see him in the SIM for ~10 more days.
236 bond007 : Google Maps does it. Used that many times in aircraft, ships etc., but you need to cache it initially by loading data from the locations you need of
237 Lizzie : I'd also like to know about those right turns.
238 Post contains links aftgaffe : Thanks. That's what I would have assumed but I've read bizarre things that seem to point to the contrary. For example: The Network Systems Server (NS
239 Post contains links and images Finn350 : Here is an image from another forum showing the radar echoes (red points) overlaid on an aeronautical chart:
240 nupogodi : Right, right, most of them cache some map data, it only makes sense - when you're navigating around a city and keep opening/closing the app, you don'
241 Lizzie : Satellite pings and doppler data and radar data are all EVIDENCE.
242 hivue : Welcome to Anet. Let me, as someone not involved professionally in aviation, second your motion. I have no problem being shot down (civilly) when I'm
243 valleyflyer : Can this AD 2005-18-51 be related? There are interesting aspects that could explain changes in altitude and headings: "On April 29, 2005, the FAA issu
244 Post contains links jpsnaggs : Most of these things have already been discussed, but I have a few questions if anyone would like to help clear my mind... My questions come on the he
245 Post contains images ExpatExp : Bescherelle
246 747megatop : The actual EVIDENCE is the wreckage. Without that the satellite pings, doppler data and radar data lead to two probable paths Northern Arc and Southe
247 Finn350 : That is correct. However, if we assume that the captain locked the FO out of the cockipit, the FO might have switched on his phone and try to place a
248 BackSeater : What right turns? The one chart of published Doppler data consists of 10 discrete measurements at 10 instants in time over an 8 hour flight. Sometime
249 jpsnaggs : Yes, thank you! That does make sense... I would also like to find out what a corresponding mechanical failure scenario would be.
250 Trin : I can't speak for other devices, but my Google Maps app on my iPhone allows you to navigate to any map location in the world, and cache data for it o
251 hivue : FO forgets to switch his phone off (or accidentally turns it on), then the mechanical failure occurs.
252 bond007 : Yes, actually on my Android I just switched off the data connection and I easily have enough cached maps at a resolution high enough to steer me in t
253 BackSeater : IMO, this discussion about the size of the cache on handheld, GPS equipped mobiles is trying to solve a non problem. If the a/c is flyable with no com
254 canoecarrier : I'd be amazed if the amount of unusable fuel in a 777 wasn't considerably more than the oil used/stored in the engines. Since it was seen by a ship i
255 65mustang : Due to more surface area of glass in the cockpit and the shape of it, wouldn't it be more likely for a cell phone to connect to a ground tower from th
256 Post contains images bikerthai : That is what you call hard evidence. These are circumstantial evidence. In some circles, you can be convicted using circumstantial evidence. bt
257 Lizzie : I would agree that actual wreckage would be (probably) the most persuasive evidence. That doesn't mean that other stuff isn't evidence. If no wreckag
258 nupogodi : That's not how Google Maps works for me at all. In airplane mode I get a blank map only a few km from my position. Some of the map around where I fre
259 65mustang : So apparently Malaysian authorities simply pulled the phone records from the phone providers and saw that there was no calls or messages sent. With a
260 Lizzie : The offsets show aircraft moving away from the satellite on the pings marked "possible turn". As the satellite is to the west of the plane, that sugg
261 DTW2HYD : Only devices with iOS6 and later with standalone Google Maps have this feature. Android devices had this feature even before. You could always buy To
262 Dalavia : I don't know how relevant this line of enquiry is to the case of MH370, but I can confirm that Google Maps (on an iPhone) does cache maps of places y
263 Post contains images Lizzie : And even "hard" evidence sometimes isn't as hard as it looks. I don't think there's a categorical distinction myself - or, at any rate, I don't make
264 desh : Thanks ! Does seem like we are well beyond specs on the water immersion front. Not sure how 5000 psi static translates to sea water at that depth (lo
265 nupogodi : OK so the caching strategy varies and in some cases the cache could be quite extensive, if the tiles were loaded. Actually tiles is an antiquated term
266 nupogodi : Take the water immersion specs with a grain of salt (or litre of salt water?), AF447 recovered recorder was readable after years. We're not really ne
267 BackSeater : I learned a long time ago to question anything I don't understand (even If I might as a result look stupid) and not just agree with assumptions or re
268 11Bravo : Um, no. Those things would be physical evidence. Circumstantial evidence would be evidence based on circumstance.
269 Post contains images Lizzie : Well, me too But I'm also happy to deal with provisional data and/or inferences, as long as I remember to keep tabs on the degree of uncertainty they
270 nupogodi : In single-engine aircraft, especially old ones where a lot of weight is rotated, the torque on the aircraft from the propellor makes it easy to roll
271 WarrenPlatts : r The hypothesis is that a software glitch destroyed all of the B777's navigational aids, except for the magnetic compass, which is situated in an ol
272 Kaiarahi : At about the point the transponder was disabled (neutral term), the programmed route required a right turn to 040 degrees. There are at least two pos
273 Kaiarahi : It was your hypothesis ....
274 Post contains images flyingturtle : In the rather famous Sioux City accident, the pilots learned that they could more easily turn into one direction than into the other, and accordingly
275 747megatop : I am not saying that the other stuff isn't evidence. The other stuff is evidence of the fact that MH 370 flew back over the Malay peninsula and then
276 Post contains links PanAmPaul : The Joint Agency Coordination Centre reported that the Bluefin 21 returned to the surface 10 hours early after hitting its maximum depth. It will resu
277 Post contains links aftgaffe : NYT story on how not everyone is thrilled with China's search efforts. When Malaysia is criticizing you.... "In the first week of the search, China re
278 Post contains links Dalavia : I have been following Duncan Steel's very informative and well informed analysis of satellite pings for some time now. In his latest article, he says
279 DTW2HYD : Granted China is not meeting everyone's expectations. But let's see whats going on with Malaysia's aviation sector and MAS. No structure to investiga
280 desh : Yep
281 Post contains links Dalavia : One of the linked articles in the comments section of Duncan Steel's page surprised me in that I had not come across this information previously (and
282 777Jet : I wonder, if anything, what will be the consequences of the photos being released of the cockpit visit? Moreover, I wonder what MH will do, if anythi
283 bond007 : We got to this topic because you said.... They do ...raster/vector/tiles, who cares, so let's move on... Jimbo
284 Post contains links YVRLTN : But in so doing he is totally discounting all the work Inmarsat have done, peer reviewed by the NTSB, AAIB and whoever else. Then there is the small
285 coolian2 : So has he told anyone who can spare an hour to have a nosey by plane?
286 nupogodi : Shouldn't have been possible on the 111 either. Shitty maintenance makes anything possible. But explosive decompression is survivable and doesn't exp
287 Post contains links and images 777Jet : Similar to what I read: "The Bluefin-21 was launched from Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield off the Western Australian coast last night but turn
288 nupogodi : The REMUS 6000 is a certified badass. It can go to 6000m, it's got 3 types of sonar, it's even got freakin' WiFi. Can go up to 5kts, and last up to 2
289 NAV30 : A British nuclear submarine is on its way to help. But I doubt that it will be able to go down to anything like 4,500m., my guess is that less than 1
290 Post contains links LTC8K6 : http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=38144
291 nupogodi : Indeed. People should let me write marketing copy, I think a few people briefly entertained the idea of buying an ROV for a second there.
292 Finn350 : Goodbye Bluefin-21, welcome REMUS 6000!
293 777Jet : The owner of this / these bad-boys needs to come on-board... I wonder if this is being looked into? Could this SAR ever depend on being handled priva
294 nupogodi : If the price is right, WHOI will lend you some and even operate them for you. They were used in the AF447 search.
295 Post contains links Finn350 : I think they are looking at it: http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/interviews/2014/april/tr009.aspx
296 Post contains links and images wilco737 : Part 55 now available: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55 (by wilco737 Apr 14 2014 in Civil Aviation) Thanks. wilco737
297 decoder : Edit: moved to next thread.[Edited 2014-04-14 22:27:38]
298 Post contains links and images 777Jet : Yeah, I just read this regarding AF447: "The main tools for the search were three Remus 6000 autonomous underwater vehicles". http://www.popularmecha
299 YVRLTN : I agree, but just trying to go along the path Pihero and Kaiarahi are trying to guide us down away from suicidal crew, if a similar thing happened, I
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