Bill From Switzerland, joined Jun 1999, 69 posts, RR: 0 Posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1548 times:
Swiss Governement shall decide before this evening to give or not near 2 bn $ (1.82 more precisely) to the new Swiss Airline (a merger of Crossair and the failed Swissair). We are only 7 mio people in Switzerland and that's mean I'd have (and each people in Switzerland) to indirectly pay more than 261 $ to help the new swiss airline to survive !!! STOP IT !!!
It's completely unfair and anti-competitive to subsidize just some airlines and not the others. And you (all cutomers) are the big winners of competition !
Let Swissair and Crossair fail if there is no other alternative. If there is really a market another airline will see the day.... Perhaps this time it will be a well-managed airline.
Swiss government will give 2 bn $ but there is no guarantee that the new airline will survive because the organisational and culture change will probably be the greatest challenge for the new airline. Crossair and Swissair had a completely different culture. More than one firm have collapsed due to a less important organisational change...
Tca256 From Belgium, joined Dec 1999, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1453 times:
Well, I may agree you are fed up to be a milky cow
with your income taxes but your post has a very
cynical name...I think you might pay more taxes
to sustain more than 8000 people unemployed if SR
crashes down for long, in french we call it sometimes "demagogie" !
Tripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1413 times:
finally somebody is talking sense here. It's hard to find anybody with a complete normal point of view on this matter. But you are exactly right. Crossair will have the same problems Swissair had...so it doesn't make any sense for you government to put any money into it. If it would make any sense some investment group would already have stepped in. No investors did so far....so it is time for Swissair to die.....and led some healthy airline enter the Swiss market and try to become successful overthere.
Teva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1876 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1396 times:
As a Swiis tax payer, how much are you going to pay for all the people loosing their job?
And how many non SR people will loose their job, because ex-SR employees will just have enough money to survive, and not enough to pay for goods such as cars, clothes, ....
This is called as the snow ball effect.
You close a big busines, and shop, bars, restaurants, garages, etc... close.
Not to say that you are unfair, saying it is not fair to help SR, as other airlines are not helped.
Major European airlines have been helped in the 90s. And today it is in the States.
Now, you are right on 1 point. The govervment has to make sure that with this money, SR will survive. And for this, it is their own responsability to make sure that SR, lost in the middle of European Union, will have the same facilities as carriers from EU countries.
SR started its crazy expansion because of this. If there is no agreement with EU, then it willl be hard to survive. And that will be a vry sad day for me, and a lot of travelers.
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
Bill From Switzerland, joined Jun 1999, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1390 times:
Swiss people will travel like before "Swissair age". Then either a new airline will see the day or foreign airlines will pick up the market !! In both cases people who worked on the ground will still be needed and the loss of 8000 is exaggerated.
And if Nestlé, Serono, ... and other big firms collapse I'm not sure that the swiss governement will help them....
Perhaps Switzerland and Belgium are too small to have an airline with intercontinental flights. They are just able to have some specialized markets like Crossair, esayJet and others do.
Dens From Switzerland, joined Sep 2001, 310 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1349 times:
I'm afraid that if Swissair will survive, they will operate only out of Zurich. Crossair has a big market in Basle and Geneva and to save Swissair, they will have to fly more out of Zurich! Which airport will have less flights??? GVA and BSL!!!
GVA suffered a lot with Swissair when they decided to move all long haul flights out of ZRH and now this airport will suffer because of Swissair's bankrupty!!!
Swiss-airplane From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 591 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1332 times:
I never heard such a stupid story. Swissair must survive, they have to survive. Such a good airline should not go under. I think there will be a good plan helphing swissair, that they can survive.
Gibberish From Switzerland, joined Sep 2000, 424 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1307 times:
The Swiss government is helping not to save a national pride because of patriotism but because they want to avoid a a social and economic catastrophy. If Switzerland doesn't have intercontinental connection to the rest of the world the economy slowly starts to crumble. If Swissair would go bankrupt 60'000 would lose their job instantly. Of those alone 12'000 are in Switzerland. You must be insane to say such a thing like you did. 12'000 jobless will cost a lot more than $261, you greedy fool. And those are only SR jobs. Imagine all the job losses at ZRH and around the airport! UNTHINKABLE! The Swiss economy would suffer badly and the state would lose money and they'd raise the taxes and you'd end up losing far more than your lousy $261. Get a life!
LufthansaCrew From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1281 times:
I agree with Bill.
the collapse of Swissair is the result of many wrong decisions made by the executive board e.g. the fatal expansion-strategy.
I think several (small) countries have to say good-bye to the idea of having a national carrier which offers longhaul-routes. They seemingly want to save SR because of national-pride. They don't regard it as what it should regarded as, a mere enterprise, and this enterprise has to obey the rules of market and competition.
Sure it is a tragedy for all those employees, I concede.
However, new SR will also face strong head wind. There is no guarantee that new SR will be successfull. And then? Employees would lose their job again.
The help from the government is only an attempt to delay the natural process of concentration. I am sure, in a few years, there will only be a dozen of worldwide-longhaul-carriers such as BA, UA, LH a.s.o.
and a lot of smaller carriers, flying intercontinental routes.
Lowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1258 times:
1) It is not 12,000 people who will be out on the streets forever. Many will probably find jobs quickly.
2) I agree with Bill. That's too much money to be throwing at an airline. If there are 5 million people paying taxes, then you are giving 1.3 billion dollars. Even AA, the world's largest airline, is getting less than a billion.
I believe that the old Swissair should enter into the Swiss version of a Chapter 7 liquidation.Then they should use the taxpayers money to start up a new Swiss airline and buy planes and such with that cash instead of having to pay high lease rates. It should be scaled back, with only a couple intercontinental destinations and just the main cities in Europe(plus small cities that were profitable).
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1240 times:
If SR will be bailed out , then SN will be bailed out, then AZ will be bailed out, then EI will be bailed out, then OA will be bailed out, then IB will be bailed out, then ............... will be bailed out. Please stop this!
Wirraway From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
ABC News Net Australia:
2.8 billion euro cash injection to save Swiss airline industry
The Swiss state and private companies have agreed to inject 4.24 billion Swiss francs (2.82 billion euros) into launching a new Swiss airline after the collapse of Swissair, government officials said on Monday.
Some 2.1 billion Swiss francs of the amount will be borne by the state, 400 million by the cantons (or state), 1.69 billion by private industry and 50 million Swiss francs by the city of Zurich.
Swiss-based European regional airline, Crossair, which is due to take over most of Swissair's flights, will be recapitalised at 2.74 billion Swiss francs (1.82 billion euros), the officials told reporters.
The Swiss government will control 20 per cent of the capital and equity of the new Crossair, the cantons will hold 18 per cent and private industry will control 62 percent.
Crossair is currently 70 per cent owned by Switzerland's two premier banks UBS and Credit Suisse.
Government, bank and company chiefs announced the rescue plan at a highly anticipated press conference here after weeks of intensive negotiations to save the country's airline industry.
"We are happy to have succeeded in this exercise," Swiss president and Transport Minister Moritz Leuenberger said.
Swissair Group sought bankrutpcy protection just over two weeks ago.
Mac100 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1182 times:
Swiss Unveil Plan to Save Swissair
Updated: Mon, Oct 22 3:29 PM EDT
By ONNA CORAY, Associated Press Writer
BERN, Switzerland (AP) - Swiss government and industry agreed Monday to spend $2.65 billion to create a new national airline on the ruins of Swissair, wrecked by the air travel chaos following the U.S. terror attacks.
"It wasn't possible to save Swissair," said Finance Minister Kaspar Villiger.
"We are happy and relieved that this effort has succeeded," said President Moritz Leuenberger in disclosing the combination of government and industry financing totaling
"But jobs will be lost," said Leuenberger, who is also transport minister in Switzerland's seven-member coalition cabinet. "We don't have cause for a great euphoria."
At least 9,000 jobs in the Swissair group are expected to go under the agreed plan. Other proposed options could have resulted in up to 27,000 job losses.
Swissair, which has a global work force of around 70,000, announced 9,000 job cuts earlier this month.
Leuenberger told reporters later that "there is no guarantee" that the plan would succeed. "If it doesn't work, then it's the end," he added.
Villiger said the salvage operation, which will put the profitable Crossair subsidiary in charge of the Swissair group, would be financed one-third by national and local government and two-thirds by Swiss companies.
The package involves some of the biggest companies in Switzerland, including food and beverage giant Nestle SA as well as drug firms Novartis AG and Roche Group.
No name has yet been devised for the new airline.
The plan is to keep 26 jetliners capable of flying to the United States, Asia and Africa and 26 shorter-haul airliners for European flights, as well as 82 smaller planes from the Crossair fleet, the government said.
Leuenberger said the federal government was putting up $625 million in a bridging loan to assure flights on a reduced schedule until next March while the restructuring of the airline takes place.
The government also will invest $375 million in the new company.
The major Swiss banks and industry have agreed in "countless meetings" in recent days to pay for the bulk of the rescue package, and the government will reduce its involvement as soon as possible, said Leuenberger.
"The situation of Swissair was worse than we thought for a long time and it deteriorated dramatically after the events of Sept. 11," said Villiger.
For most of the year the company was trying to recover from a failed expansion strategy that led to a loss of $2.9 billion Swiss francs ($1.8 billion) in 2000.
The U.S. attacks will cost the group 3.1 billion-3.8 billion francs ($1.9 billion-$2.3 billion) more by the end of this year, the airline has said.
Swissair, which filed for protection from creditors earlier this month, was forced to ground its entire fleet for two days as it had no cash to pay necessary fuel and landing bills.
This compelled the government to provide $280 million to keep it in the air until next Sunday when Crossair takes over.
The government, which faced strong public support for the airline that had been cherished by many Swiss as a national symbol of efficiency, found the situation "very difficult," said Villiger.
"There is no ideal way out of it," he said.
The big Swiss banks, Credit Suisse and UBS, which in early October came up with $940 million for a rescue package and to buy Swissair's 70 percent stake in Crossair, had said they cannot afford any more cash injections.
But officials said Monday that they will kick in another $220 million.