M.Seles_Fan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1077 times:
Can anyone see it happening? CLE is surrounded by major int'l airports (ORD, DET, CVG, PHL). I am sure CLE will never be an ORD or ATL but I don't see why it can't be like CVG, PHL. Continental operates a CLE-LGW flight (which I think has been suspended for now because of the attacks) but that is flown with a 757. The runways at CLE are too short to handle a fully loaded 747 or probably even a 767-300. I know United use to operate a daily DC-10 from CLE-ORD. Does anyone think some changes will be done to CLE? I've heard rumors that the IX Center and NASA being shut down, but those are rumors I guess.
SouthRebels From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 981 times:
I live in Cleveland and here is the view point that I get. I don't see Cleveland becoming a major international aiport unless Continental greatly expands its hub here. I don't see this happening because of Intercontinental and Newark. As you said CO has the CLE-LGW operated by a 757-200, although as you said it has been suspended for the time being. Cleveland's only other international service is to Toronto (YYZ) on Air Canada and Continental Express, Montreal (YUL) on CO Express, and San Juan, Puerto Rico on CO. There is seasonal service to Cancun (CUN) on Continental. All other international destinations are served through EWR or IAH. The current expansion plans call for construction a 9,000' runway equipped for CATIII approaches and for Group V aircraft (Runways 6L & 24R), expansion and relocation of Brookpark Road, Abram Creek relocation, construction and relocation of some NASA facilities, C.E.I. powerline relocation, West Hangar Road construction, and baggage claim renovation. The idea behind this renovation is basically to attract economic opportunities by making CLE capable of increased passenger loads and non-stop international destinations. This is all done through the runway expansion and airport renovation. As you said before UA had a daily 767-300ER to ORD, but has discontinued that. At this time I don't see the economic viability of having a non-stop to Europe, for instance. Like I said Continental would need to expand its hub here in Cleveland. Around here they show all these statistics about airlines expanding service from CLE to, for example JFK and LGA. It's true, AA did expand service nonstop from CLE to JFK/LGA. However, these are American Eagle flights, not mainline. I would like to see CLE become a major international airport, however I just don't see it happening in the near future, especially now, in the currect economic downturn.
I hope this helps a little and wasn't too off topic.
Thomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3723 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 951 times:
I think you answered your own question. Considering the already mentioned int'l airports that surround CLE. You also need to consider the Cleveland areas metro population base, as well as it's business community and their willingness to support such flights. Also lets not forget the ethnic diversity of Cleveland. As many travel rather frequently to their home countries, you need to ask, how diverse is Cleveland ? And would there be enough support form say the Polish community for a flight to Warsaw ? Another important point is tourism. What does Cleveland have to sell ? What would entice someone to want to visit Cleveland aside from the Rock and Roll hall of Fame ?
I do not know a great deal about Cleveland, but considering that CVG, DTW and ORD are so slose to CLE, I do not believe that CLE would have anything to offer a carrier (other than CO) to start any real serious int'l service from CLE. Though I would not be suprised if CO were to start a few flights to Mexico one day.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15990 posts, RR: 59 Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 930 times:
I agree with all your comments.
CLE has a bigger population base though than CVG...so CLE should be able to grow to at least as big as CVG's intl services.
The city fathers MUST build the infrastructure...extend the runways and build a so-called 'international wing' onto the terminal. This will provide confidence to CO that CLE is willing to support them.
Secondly, local CLE business/govt should lobby CO to re-instate the 752 service to LGW. That is the key. When LGW is successful, FRA and CDG can come next.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Lindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3072 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 921 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
When will Disneyland Ohio be built? Maybe a rich benefactor can donate some Picassos or Van Goghs to a Clevelandl museum. Could Dubya Bush be convinced to open his presidential library in Cleveland? Or several major multinational corporations could decide to set up their world headquarters in Cleveland, thus guaranteeing business travelers... better yet, the UN could be moved to Cleveland! That's what you Clevelanders should do, convince the UN to move. Then you'd be sure to see the occasional 747 at Hopkins.
Thomacf From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 540 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 5 days ago) and read 914 times:
Even when the expansion is complete, it will be up to CO to really increase traffic. I have always felt that if DL, AA, UA or NW was in CLE it would be a much busier hub and have alot more internationanl traffic. CLE could easily become as busy as CVG, PIT, and STL. These are the airports that mayor white always compares CLE to. The thing is CLE has a much larger metro pop. base than all of those cities and many more corporate headquarters, so the pop. and business attraction is there. I wish CO would just put some bigger planes and more routes in there or move out and have a bigger carrier come in.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 849 times:
The biggest thing holding CLE back over the years has been political ineptitude. The city TURNED DOWN DL when it was looking for a midwest hub back in the late 1970's, after UA pulled out when it consolidtated operations at ORD and IAD. It finally got a hub carrier in CO in 1987, but the strong pro-union groups fought CO for years any time CO tried to get any decent improvements made to Concourse C. It had to fight to get Concourse D built, it had to fight just to get fast-food eateries installed more and more throughout the airport. It took the city almost a decade to finally start building the dual runway project, which, had it been completed sooner, maybe have helped CLE keep more service after 9-11.
The best CLE can hope for is service to resume again to LGW, and, hopefully, down the road, if CO gets a chance to continue to grow the hub, you might see CLE-CDG, CLE-FRA, maybe CLE-MEX. But not much more than that. As for the runways, they are plenty long to accomodate what CO would fly to Europe-either a 762 or a 764. That isn't an issue. The issue is getting a mayor into office that doesn't fight your hub carrier all the time, getting CO profitable again, and getting the dual runway up and running.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 843 times:
Thomacf, you don't just put in bigger planes to put in bigger planes. You put in what the market can bear and what will be profitable. One reason why both CLE and CVG are RJ havens is the fact they sit in a location where the RJ can serve many, many markets and can serve them with relative profitability. On the jet side, CO is flying in more 738's in to CLE-they hold 150 pax, and a few 739's that hold 167 folks. You don't fly a 762 CLE-LAX unless you think it will make a profit. And it will only happen, over time, if you beef up the feeder traffic.
As as for you maybe wanting CO to leave, you tell me who is going to put a hub in there? Everyone else has a midwest hub that serves their needs: AA at ORD and STL, UA at ORD, US at PIT, NW at DTW, DL at CVG, WN at MDW. There's no one there to fill the void.
As much as I despise Mike White and his petty politics in Cleveland, he is right about one thing: CLE's only salvation for increased airline service is CO, and a healthy CO means a good hub in CLE.
Kcle From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 686 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 822 times:
Hmmm, I should have been first to reply but i just found this post, oh well. As far as who could fill the void of CO if they left might be jetBlue. They are interested in service to CLE, but it appears the futute is out of mayor White's hands, and has fallen into the hands of whoever may be the next mayor, whether Pierce or that woman, whatever her name is. And their focus is supposedly on the school system, and what to do with BKL, whether to keep it open, or close it and build homes and a park there. Although WN has a MDW hub, they have a lot of CLE traffic. And it's not just to MDW, it's to BWI, PHX, and somewhere in Texas.
I used to have high hopes that CLE would have widebody service, but it's not going to happen IMO.
If you look around you may be able to find evidence that the Boeing 777 can easily take off from CLE's longest runway, at only 9000 feet. If you want to see a widebody at CLE, you have to be watching the news to see when the next foreign dignitary will be coming to the Cleveland Clinic, as they have those huge planes, 747's, A340's.
Above someone stated that aside from the rock hall, what does CLE have to make it a tourist destination? Well, I've lived here all my live, and I've yet to find one thing that is good about Cleveland, aside from the fact that Drew Carey glorifies it on his TV show.
You probably won't see a widebody here for another 4-5 years, and even then it may only be a 767-200.
Here, I took this pic two weeks ago. It's of a Transmeridian 727. From the airline name, I could see that this is an intl flight, and it isn't even mainline, it's a stinkin charter flight. You want to see CLE in action as an intl airport, there are a few things you can do; 1. take a pic of CLE and stick a British Airways 744 on it in Photoshop, 2. build a time machine and go back in time when CLE had the era of widebodies, and 3. buy a ticket on AirOntario or COEx, and fly across Lake Erie to Canada.
Jimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 640 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 810 times:
I think that there is potential for the situation to improve when the City of Cleveland divests its interest in the airport and it is run instead by a regional airport authority. I believe that a regional authority would have planned for airport expansion better than the city of Cleveland--who kept on running into its own politics, and the politics of other cities as well. (I understand the plight of those in Brookpark, but it infuriates me that a city of a few thousand people is holding up the economic potential of at least a 15 county area with 4 million people.) Port Columbus is operated by a chartered airport authority separate from the city of Columbus and CVG is operated by, umm...I think it's the Kenton County Kentucky airport authority (but I believe the airport is in Boone County, KY.) Anyway, the shortsightedness in running CLE for decades has caught up with it...and most of that shortsightedness is associated with city of Cleveland politics. As for CVG...it was the right airport at the right time for DL. The Cincinnati metro area is smaller, less populous, and other than Procter and Gamble, I argue, has fewer large company headquarters.
I thank God that CO has invested so much into Cleveland. I think there is potential for more international service. If the KLM-CO deal goes well...we may see CLE-AMS before anything else (dunno how much farther a 752 can go.) There is likely some potential for latam service...like CLE-MEX. (I'm from Costa Rica...so CLE-SJO would just kill me. I see no reason why Cleveland cannot become another hub for latam service like EWR and Houston. In fact, I think there is more potential for that than transatlantic service.
However, one thing that is sorta holding down international service is the rather smallish customs/immigration facilities. How many gates are directly connected to immigration at CLE? It's not many, if it's more than one, and to get more intl service will require more intl arrival gates.
We'll see what happens in the next few years once the new runway is completed. There is no great need for widebody service at this time (you'll find that the internationally configured CO 752 holds just about the same amount of people as CO's internationally configured 762.) Remember that AA used to fly 762's into Cleveland as well, but there are more flights to ORD and MDW than you can throw a stick at. CO, as an airline, isn't as into wide bodies as other airlines (but you will see 757-300's in Cleveland...that I can guarantee.)
I think that NASA should be enticed to move elsewhere (there's lots of land next to the Cuyahoga County airport--let them go there.) And the Ford Plant could possibly enticed to move to newer digs elsewhere as well. Both propositions would be expensive for the airport authority and would require bonds and such, but that'll be better than trying to get money to build a new airport on the Ravenna Arsenal.
As for Kcle...Ohioans are notorious for not knowing what they have. There is a lot of good in Cleveland, and our state, you just have to look for it.
Kcle From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 686 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 767 times:
I remember seeing that pic, and not believeing it. I can't see how a 742 could fit at CLE's Intl gate. By the way, CLE has one Intl gate, the one that the 742 is parked at. There is also B1 but that is for Air Ontario's DHC-8s.
Flyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1920 posts, RR: 11 Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 750 times:
This is just my opinion, but I feel that CLE needs it's feeder service back in order to support the Int'l service. NW has great feeder service out of DTW through Mesaba and now also Express Airlines I. When I worked for Mesaba in TOL, the amount of Int'l passengers we did, had to total about 20% - 25% of all of our traffic. Now...just about 7 months ago, CO cut a lot of their feeder cities; TOL, ERI, FNT, AZO (?), FWA and many more....I feel in order to get fill those Int'l cities routes, they'd need more feed to CLE and CLE doesn't have as good a feed as the other major cities do.
SouthRebels From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 723 times:
MAH4546, I'm not going to get into a pissing match over whether or not SJU is an international destination with you. AA considers SJU domestic. That's absolutely great. Funny thing is we are talking about CO and CLE.
KCLE, all I have to say to you is that you are way off base with Cleveland. Cleveland not only has a lot of "stuff" to do, it has quite a few world headquarters for large businesses and industries.
As far as soon-to-be ex-Mayor White, he has helped screw CLE expansion. I hope Pierce or Campbell can help fix that. Though KCLE brought up a good point in the school system being number one priority. It is and it damn well better be, considering the Cleveland Public Schools are the worst in the country and the school buildings are LITERALLY falling down.
As most people agree, the expansion of CLE lies in CO and specifically its feeder service to it. Speaking of widebody service. CLE-IAH will be the first to see a 767. I have flown that route many times and even last Friday the flight was completely full. The 762 only holds 174 pax while their 738's hold around 160. Take from that what you will.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 725 times:
A few points.
-WN serves BWI, MDW, STL and BNA out of CLE, and has a weekend flight to LAS. They don't fly to PHX, they don't fly to "somewhere in Texas". Four cities, that's it.
-747's do make occasional appearances at CLE. Whoever said they can't park at CLE, well, I've seen them park there, so there!!
-Customs has been expanded-not to where it needs to go-but there are three gates that can be used simultaneously for customs now: A-14, A-11a, and A-11. That expansion happened last year. A much better customs area is need, which is obvious, but it's better than it used to be.
Heavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 704 times:
747s can and do visit CLE...in fact when i lived there in 98 I walked out of my apartment to watch the spirited departure of a BA747 that had been diverted from ORD because of a massive summer thunderstorm front...(it was a Classic model and had World Images on the tail.)
It's important to remember that while othe rust belt cities were concentrating on building up their airports, Cleveland was concentrating on rebuilding their city. And they've done so in rather spectacular fashion. Sports arenas, entertainment districts and the R&R Hall of Fame were on paid for by Cleveland taxpayers. Asking for billions more to envision a massive jetport serving the city.....was financially tough even for the most tax happy pols.
CLE missed the boat about twenty five years ago...the boat that floated PIT and CVG to such success. And yet...well, PIT is over dependent on what could be considered a dying animal. And CVG grew fat and sassy during the 90s golden years, but can its' flight volume survive in this anemic new world? And did Comair stab itself fatally with its long and bitter labor dispute?
One might witness the future of US transport in Cleveland's new Concourse D...fleets of sleek jungle jets pulling up to their humorously stunted jetways to cart the masses off to places that were once the domains of DC-9s and 727s. The concept of more flights with smaller jets is in full view at CLE's concourse D. Cleveland may not be the most dynamic hub, but it is a resilient one....the flight system is practical in times of dire straits.
Don't expect fleets of winglet tipped 747s, A340s and Triple 7s to be lining up every evening at CLE anytime soon.....but remember, thats not really what the city needs right now.
Aztec01 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 144 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 703 times:
Sure 747's fly in occasionally. We got pictures here on A.net to prove it. Plus AF1 flies in here. Last year, the Emirates were here for the longest time with their 747...and their 767, Il 76's et al. Granted they aren't here often, but it's a great sight when they are.
Last summer (2K) weather closed DTW and PIT, diverting US Airways to CLE. It was awesome. B767's a couple of A330's and more B737's and Fokkers than you could count were scattered all over the airport. And the just kept landing nose to tail...then CLE shut down stranding them there for several hours. Kinda nice to see some heavies at CLE...well maybe not for the pax.
Coyoteguy From Mexico, joined Oct 2001, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 692 times:
If CO considers SJU to be international, then they better also include MIA... presumably they are applying the rule that if they speak a foreign language, they are international. And you don't get a more Spanish speaking city than Miami...
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, RR: 74 Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 667 times:
Wether or not CO considers San Juan international or not makes zero difference, because the fact is, San Juan is domestic. Airline's cannot decide that. There are no duties and you don't need a passport. San Juan is a domestic destination. So is Hawaii, so is Guam (though I do hear you need a passport for GUM), so is the US Virgin Islands, even though Continental might call them international.