HZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (14 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1240 times:
OK come one come all before I get thrown off the post and blocked permanently to listen to the following. It is not my intention to start a war but what will be will be. I'm had enough of these lame uninteresting posts so I've decided to liven things up a bit.
1) I'm sick and tired of these European attitudes that Airbus is so amazing and now we can finally get back at Boeing. What the hell did Boeing ever do? Oh yeah I think it was when they made excellent well-designed aircraft and sold them for a profit. GASP!! But of course Airbus doesn't do that. Airbus is only in the market for the universal greater good.
2) Why the hell is it such a victory when Airbus gets the order and Boeing doesn't!??! The reality is both are huge multinational corporations making billions upon billions of dollars. What the hell do any of you have anything to do with it anyway? These companies are getting rich selling their product and would do much better to stop undercutting each other. Yes duopoly however illegal works. This means don't sell planes for less than manufacturing costs (favorite tactic of both especially Airbus) and don't waste billions of dollars on A3XX/747X which will only hurt both companies in the end (the classic prisoner's dilemma of Economics).
Bottom line is both make the mode of transport to get where you want to go. But some of you would probably take up arms against the other post writers for their "blasphemies" if you only could And what about these arrogant attitudes you all seem to have. I would guess that maybe 10% of you are pilots who don't know jack shit about what you are talking about yet you feel the need to attack the simple enthusiasts who have innocent questions. I have seen this many times and been a part of it recently. Lighten up.
So just accept that Airbus is as shameful and Boeing and get on with your lives. Airbus sucks. Boeing sucks.
24291 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (14 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 826 times:
I think there are a lot of people here who share your sentiments. If someone threatens to have this post erased it will only hurt matters. If you have something to say, you should feel free to speak your mind.
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 50 Reply 5, posted (14 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 817 times:
What is it that you find redeeming in going out of your way to try and piss people off? Granted, I've done it numerous times on this post, but the difference is that I never intended to. If you want to get a rise out of people, without making yourself look like a jackass, you can start by posting a controversial question, instead of coming out and making blanket insults like that. You probably will not have a skimtchin of credibility henceforth now. I mean, I hate to reply to an insult with an insult, but c'mon man......are you with us or not? I bet I speak for many here.
Boeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 944 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (14 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 808 times:
As long as the airplane has a red button to turn all this computerized crap off (which sadly most airplanes have on board) so YOU as the pilot can "FLY" the aircraft instead the other way around and as long as the yoke is positioned infront of you, I don't care where the airplane comes from; just let the pilot fly the plane instead of playing some computer games up front where hundreds of lives are in the hands (or should I say "microchips" and "processors") of the people in command, today also known as computer supervisors.
Where are the good old days of cables and pulleys.
HZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (14 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 803 times:
A bit of both here guys. I wasn't so much trying to piss people off as spark their interest just a little bit. I feel very strongly that people who love Airbus or love SIA or love the 737NG (haven't seen too many but I'm new at this) should also accept a little criticism from time to time. Nobody is perfect and Airbus sure as hell isn't (neither is Boeing for that matter). Every post I see that starts out well enough but gets bogged down in name calling, threats, and paranoia (YES I too am guilty of this) which is just plain dumb and it sure as hell isn't constructive by any standard.
I wrote this crappy post and the others in something of a foul mood trying to piss a few people off (hey guys you can't please everybody all f the time). Please don't get the wrong impression...I'm not an asshole, far from it in fact but I also think the Golden Rule (treat others as you would have them treat you) doesn't always apply. Didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings (except those of you who came out and e-mailed that my post should be deleted). I think that's just plain dumb thing to do and is tantamount to censorship just because Gundu doesn't agree with me.
Hope that cleared things up a bit and I promise next post will be a bit more relevant and less political. It IS interesting the kind of issues my garbage vitriol and bile has produced. You see, we had a productive discussion in the end though no?
Udo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (14 years 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 805 times:
Just wanted to reply to HZ-AKF's post where he asked something like: Who cares which of both multi-billion companies gets orders (or anything similar).
I care about it, and every time Airbus gets an order for its planes I'm happy as those secure many jobs here in Germany and the rest of Europe. And don't let me forget to mention the very elegant looking A330-200, a real pride in the skies...it lets my heart beat faster...I hope to see it in SIA colors soon...
And I also care about if Boeing gets an order for GE-powered B777s, as I just love those planes with their XXXXX-large engines...(RR and PW not bad, but they don't look as impressive).
Ice Cream Man From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (14 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 778 times:
HZ-AKF (nice name, dude), I do agree with you that things here need to seriously get more interesting. So, in that respect I welcome your post.
Boeing is crap...airbus is crap, as you so eloquently put it. Fair enough. I think many people, especially in Europe, like the fact that Airbus is doing so well out of a national (if that's the right word) pride, just the same as why American people like Boeing.
I particularly, like yourself, hate those ill-informed comments of people who know very little about the subject discussed. All they can do is repeat things they have heard, mostly things that simply aren't true. It really annoys me...and it doesn't matter if these comments are made by a Boeing or an Airbus fan.
In fact, we have one such person here right now. Just go back to Boeing727's post and ask yourself, how much does this guy really know about it and how much is utter (censored) ? I can tell you, but I think you already know. Playing computer games up front ? Do automatics really endager 'hundreds of lives' ? Hello, reality check.
Mirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3120 posts, RR: 15 Reply 12, posted (14 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 767 times:
I just ask you why do you come here acting like God, telling us what to think, what to post and making such conclusions.
"The reality is both are huge multinational corporations making billions upon billions of dollars. What the hell do any of you have anything to do with it anyway?"
"I would guess that maybe 10% of you are pilots who don't know jack shit about what you are talking about yet you feel the need to attack the simple enthusiasts who have innocent questions. I have seen this many times and been a part of it recently. Lighten up."
You don't know me and by the way this is a forum, remember that you're in a forum?
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9294 posts, RR: 42 Reply 13, posted (14 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 755 times:
"I'm sick and tired of these European attitudes that Airbus is so amazing and now we can finally get back at Boeing. What the hell did Boeing ever do? Oh yeah I think it was when they made excellent well-designed aircraft and sold them for a profit. GASP!! But of course Airbus doesn't do that. Airbus is only in the market for the universal greater good."
Well I'm getting pretty sick and tired of hearing about these so-called European attitudes. First of all, there is no such thing as a "European attitude". There is still a great diversity of politics, attitude and language, even within the EU.
The only worry expressed about Boeing is that a monopoly would be in no-one's interest. There are hardly any anti-Boeing people on this forum. Time and time again people, including me, are accused of being Boeing-bashers because they won't keep quiet when someone posts yet another "Airbus are cr*p" message and then suddenly we're hearing about the USA being the defenders of Democracy.
If you actually took the trouble to read all the posts you'd see that the vast majority of the Europeans on this forum are quite happy with Airbus AND Boeing and recognise the the USA's worth without thinking the sun shines out of their... well, you know what I mean. You'd also see that the vast majority of us from the USA, Canada, the UK, Portugal, Sweden, Australia, etc., get along fine and read with interest about aviation in each other's countries.
Iainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (14 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 761 times:
You seem to bag on Airbus but you do not suport it with anything!! Airbus has way better products. You speak to any Airbus pilot and they seem to be much happier flying the A320 the a 737 pilot is flying the 737. Airbus made concorde which is the only SST. Airbus made the first wide body twin the A300 and then used the same aircraft parts and made it little bro. the A310. Boeing had never used aircraft parts for other aircrafts before Airbus. Airbus was the first to have fly by wire then Boeing compied. The A320 was the first to have an all glass cockpit. Airbus has the quietest aircraft flying the A340. Airbus are selling many more A320 then 737. If you can think of so many industry changing things Boeing has done please post them. Iain
HZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (14 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 752 times:
Well I didn't want to start this but the foolish words of Iain and others leave me no choice.
Airbus invented the SST? Never heard such bullshit.
Maybe Airbus planes are nice to look at on the outside I'll give you that. But the one thing I notice everytime I fly the 330/340 is how the interior is EXACTLY the same as the A300 and A310...a 20 year old design. At least Boeing makes some innovations from time to time. In fact the A330 and A340 seem like nothing more than updated and stretched versions of the A300 with a bit of a nicer appearance. Excuse me I don't remember saying anything bad about Airbus...and your ignorant nonsense is a perfect example of the type of flag-waving crap I see all the time.
Point taken David L.
I am not as ignorant as I may seem.
Ice Cream Man From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (14 years 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 752 times:
Yes, HK-AKF, you are right about many people and their viewpoint, but at least admit that it comes from both sides. Both Boeing and Airbus lovers post certain things that are not always completely correct (or blatantly wrong, take you pick). Not just Airbus lovers, so let's move on now.
HZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (14 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 747 times:
Dateline London: November 29. 1962
A supersonic airliner will soon be a reality. After long negotiations the British and French governments have at least
decided to embark on one of the greatest adventures in the history of aviation.Representives from the two countries, British
minister of aviation Julian Amery and French ambassador Jouffroy de Courcel, have today signed an historic draft treaty for
collaboration in the building of a supersonic transport aircraft. Never before have two countries committed themselves to such
close cooperation. The treaty stipulates that France and Great Britain "must in all aspects of the project make an equal
contribution regarding both the costs to be taken on and the work to be carried out, and to share equally proceeds from
sales". Four companies have been entrusted with bringing the project to fruiton. The British Aircraft Corporation and
France's Sud Aviation are to build the airframe, while the four Olympus 593 jet engines will be manufactured by both Bristol
Siddeley and SNECMA.
Excuse me I don't remember hearing anything about Airbus existing in 1962.
"Airbus has way better products"--Upon what do you base this nonsense? Your own "observations" I assume.
Yes Boeing unlike Airbus doesn't keep making the same airplane over and over again adding wingtips or stretching or shortening the fuselage here and there. Thank God they don't...how boring that would be! Boeing copied Fly By Wire from Airbus eh?
I don't think so you half-witted simpleton. U.S. Military planes as far back as the original F-16 in 1979 were sporting FBW technology which has proven unreliable in the commercial market in any case.
Of course Airbus is selling more...not because they are such quality planes but because their operating costs are so low. And Boeing has sold more 737's than Airbus has sold AIRCRAFT.
Sorry idiot. I don't buy your pack of lies and bullshit.
Ravi From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (14 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 759 times:
Iainhol you have come to the conclusions that HZ-AKF is talking about - sprouting absolute garbage to make a flag-waving point.
1. As noted Airbus DID NOT create the Concorde. Sud Aviation and BAC did.
2. Every pilot has his or her preferred airplane.
3. What has making a widebody twin got to do with life? Boeing made the first WIDEBODY, period. And, what's more, the most successful one by far.
4. All Boeings use parts from the previous design. The 727, 737 and 757 all share the same tube as the original 1958 707. Don't try feeding us crap that Airbus came up with the idea.
5. Airbus was the first to have FBW because Boeing did not end up launching the 7J7 in the 1980s. What's more, the 777 FBW design is quadruplex and inherently more reliable than the Airbus FBW system.
6. The A320 was NOT first to have an all-glass cockpit. The A310 and B767 are noted for the first glass cockpits, of which the A310 was launched second, but flew first. The first modern glass cockpit was the 747-400, a design traced back to 1982. At that time the A320 still had an A310 cockpit and a hydraulic control system.
7. The A340 is NOT the quietest airplane flying. It all depends on where you stand, of course, but the footprint beneath a 777 is infact, smaller.
8. Since the launch of the A320 Boeing has sold more than 3,000 737s, and Airbus 2,300 A32Xs. Doesn't look good for your interpretation of sales.
Now, Boeing changed the industry BY INVENTING THE MODERN JET AIRLINER. Pods under wings, big capacity. The 707 changed the world more than the Comet ever did (although yes, the Comet does have rights to being the first). Boeing also changed the way the world flies with the 747. The 767 fragmented the North Atlantic routes almost on its own. The 727 came with triple-slotted flaps. Boeing invented swept wings for high speeds at high altitudes with the B-47 bomber, and perfected wing pods with the B-52. They invented the plug door, the raked wingtip, cross-crew commonality (the 757/767). They made the 737 affordable to third world countries so they too could have airlines. They invented FANS (satellite navigation and communication), in flight entertainment systems, the widebody jet, incorporated weather radar for the first time.
I like Airbus. I like Boeing. But I HATE people mouthing off with false information about one or the other. Your post was an utter joke. I hope you've learned something.
Ravi From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (14 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 748 times:
I've been reading about Airbusses and Boeings since I was 3. I recall in kindergarten when the class was reading spelling books I was reading a 747 maintenance manual.
Ok, so I was just looking at the pictures! :-)
I make it a point to try and prevent misinformation about either organisation from becoming inappropriate facts. One of which we have seen today - that Airbus invented everything and Boeing is the big copy-cat. A truly absurd notion.
I said *applause*, but was referring to the post by David L. I was agreeing with things that both you and he had said and was enjoying reading them.
I make no secret of the fact that I believe Boeing to be a greater company than Airbus based on its heritage. But, to be fair, Boeing has had 54 more years to do it in. Each company started under a similar ideal - to build airplanes better than anyone else. William Boeing did it in 1916, Airbus started with the A300 in the 1960s. I give no creedence to the yelps by Americans that Airbus should not have been subsidised because, quite frankly, I don't see why the world aerospace industry should be dominated by less than 5% of the world's population, and European aerospace is far too talented to be limited to being a Boeing or Lockheed supplier.
Besides, recently BAe finished paying back the UK govt the loans for the A320 series, so its not like the subsidies are free like many Boeing fans like to think it is. I also disregard the notion that Boeing was offered a form of subsidy in military contracts to make its commercial family. The 367-80 was funded entirely by Boeing - a 1952 value of US$16m. The 747 was not an old CX-5 military design eventually won by the Lockheed proposal.
I really enjoy the different philosophies of Airbus and Boeing. It varies from fuselages to wings, to doors, avionics, galleys and in-flight entertainment systems. Two markedly difference philosophies resulting in some very, very fine airliners that can hardly be separated. I do believe, however, that Boeing has more technology than Airbus and proved it with the 777. Quite frankly, the user pays for that technology - same as you would for buying a Sony compared to a Panasonic. Both good companies with good products, but one has the better reputation and the technological clout to back it up. Airbus airplanes are great, and all of them deserve their place in history:
A300: first widebody twin
A310: first widebody to fly with 2-man crew
A320: first to introduce FBW (or more importantly a joystick)
A330: largest twin until Mr 777 came along
A340: common with A330 (not the first idea of its kind, but the first successful kind)
I believe that each manufacturer has their own great ideas. Just in the last three years we've seen Boeing develop the raked wingtip, the BBJ and semi-levered landing gear. Airbus came up with a neat size increase for the A340, continues to try and perfect laminar flow and has some really funky design ideas for the A3XX, though it will look normal on the outside. I like 'em both. From a personal point-of-view, I find Boeing widebodies the most pleasurable to look at, but those A320s sure have some character.
Oh, and not being American or European means that I don't have to wave flags. It's good - it means I can watch either side and tell them when they're being dickheads.
BTW, what is it about the 114th 777 built that made you name yourself after its registration?
Iainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (14 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 753 times:
The people that created concorde realized that they had a good team. So after the completion of Concorde they went to compete against Boeing and become Airbus. You need to learn more before you write thing of as bullshit.
The 340 have old interior that is left up to the airline not the company. Look in the Sultan of Brunie's A340 his has the best of the best!
The 340 is a lot different then the 300. From the engines,avionics, to the dimensions.
Excuse me I don't remember saying anything bad about Airbus...
I class saying Airbus sucks and is shameful as a bad comment.
1) The people that made concorde where the same people that made Airbus!!
2) I agree but the Airbus pilot seem to say better things about there planes then the 737 crews do.
3) Well there are more twin wide bodies out today then 4 engine wide bodies so it is something!
4) I have not researched this enough to put anything down but it seems as it is true.
5) Well Airbus was the first enough said!!
6) The 310 and 767 are not all glass cockpits. The A320 had the modern all glass cockpit in 1982 also.
7) It is a fact the A340 is quieter then the 777. If you stand at the fence of an airport while a 777 takes off and an 340 takes off you will know what I mean.
8) There are more airbus 320 on order then 717 737 and 757 all put together.
About the modern jetliner the comet was the first. Modern can be taken on so many levels.
Boeing did not do very well with the 757/767 crews. Some airlines do not let their crews fly both. The airbus you can fly the 318 to the 321 no problems. And then with 2 weeks of ground school you can fly the 330/340. The is a bit better then what boeing has done!
With the wingtips. On the Boeing 747-400 United did a study and took some of there wingtips of to see how much they improve the performance. The did not improve at all so Boeing offered to take them off all 744. The airlines said oh no as people can easily identify the 744 with them.
Ravi From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (14 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 740 times:
Iain, you are a fool. It is better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak up and remove all doubt. I suggest getting an encyclopedia out and look up these terms:
It is fools like you who give the traditional, knowledgeable Airbus fan a bad name. Also look up "aircraft interiors" and you will find out that it IS the manufacturer who sculpts the cabin. Airlines pick the colours and seats.
You could have mentioned so many fine Airbus design philosophies, but you have taken the opportunity to show that you know very little of what you are talking about. Amongst them the A320, Concorde and B747. Thankfully you don't represent the core group of Airbus fans in the world who understand exactly what the consortium is all about.
When you make up history, you have got to expect people to eat you for lunch.
25 Iainhol: I am far from being a fool. It is only bamboozles like yourself that like to higher themselves being belittling others. I do not need to go and look u
26 Ravi: Your academic performance, job, and age has little to do with your knowledge of commercial aviation. Knowledge puffs up. My job as an aviation histori
27 FLY777UAL: Where exactly did he start to "tell us how to think", Mirage?! He simply stated a few of his opinions! After reading his "10% are pilots...who don't k
28 HZ-AKF: Hear hear Ravi. Iain, you come off as a perfect idiot to me.. Ravi has substantiated his assertions with facts while you are doing little more than fo
29 HZ-AKF: Also had the privilege of flying HZ-AKB, HZ-AKE, HZ-AKK not to mention LH 320 and SR 319/320 and LH A300 and SR A310
30 Danny: That's the stuff!!! Enough with this "Airbus is the best" "Boeing is better"!
31 Aviaco88: I agree with FLY777UAL. You do have a "better than thou" attitude. I am a bit confused, however, with the term "jack shit." Perhaps this is some sort
32 HZ-AKF: I like 'em both....honest I do but I've always been more attracted to Boeing for some reason....like Ravi said they do have more of a heritage but tha
33 Ice Cream Man: Good stuff...at least something is happening on this site again. Ravi, I agree with most of what you say (today at least), some small points though: I
34 Capitan: Hello Guys, Thank you very much for the wonderful time that YOU ALL MAKE ME HAVE reading your comments, here in México we said that never ever anyone
35 Ravi: Suffice to say that I know what an "all-glass cockpit" is, and indeed the Collier Foundation noted that the Boeing 777 has "the only true all-glass co
36 Ice Cream Man: Thank you for clearing things up. It was just that your wording was a bit ambiguous. I am glad that you have proved yourself to be such an expert, how
37 Ravi: Yes, sometimes my words are poorly chosen, for which I am forever giving 250 word explanations to indicate what I'm really talking about! I also have
38 Iainhol: Your academic performance, job, and age has little to do with your knowledge of commercial aviation. Knowledge puffs up. But when you call some one an
39 Ravi: I am sure, Iain, that you know more than most people about airplanes. However, you must ALWAYS be able to back-up your words and actions with facts. F
40 Cedarjet: Yay, a good Airbus vs Boeing bun fight. Love it. I want to put in my £0.02 now. First, I think the reason Europeans are so defensive of Airbus is bec
41 Ravi: 1. It was NOT the same GIE structure as Airbus; it was NOT the same personnel - the Concorde was still in design and test phase when Airbus came along
42 Iainhol: You seem to go on about personal attacks. Who is it that calls the other one an idiot and claims they are stupid. It also seems to me that you are sta
43 Pt: To all above: You need a new girlfriend, a new haircut, get a life, get perspectives.
44 Ravi: I'm so thankful someone told me to "get a life". Such inspiring words have made me see the truth and the light. Americanisms are so funny. They usuall
45 Cedarjet: I don't know, does Ravi "know his stuff"? Not a personal attack at all, I've never come across you on here or not, sir, but your point about a 707/727