Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 1428 times:
Please stick to the facts:
The company incurred a third-quarter loss of $542 million, or a loss per basic share of $10.05, both before special charges.
United's third quarter loss per share of $10.05 before special charges is better than the First Call consensus estimate of $10.27, as of October 31, 2001.
The special charges recorded in the third quarter total $617 million, net of tax, and include charges for aircraft impairment, reduction in force and early termination fees offset by the first grant payment from the U.S. government.
That was taken from Uniteds adhoc-news published today.
It means: The result is slightly better than the latest analyst estimates. The sheer amount does not say anything about the cashflow effects. It is said that extraordinary items come from impairment and that is not cash-relevant.
So again, please stick to the truth, the situation is bad enough!
Flying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2379 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 1417 times:
Here are the latest ...
The company has undertaken the following cost-cutting initiatives since Sept. 11:
United reduced its capacity by 23 percent and converted six stations to United Express.
United on Sept. 19 announced plans to reduce its workforce by approximately 20,000 employees.
The company has retired its entire fleet of Boeing 727s and 737-200s.
United is currently in negotiations with aircraft manufacturers regarding the deferral of future aircraft deliveries.
The carrier has made a number of changes to its onboard products, including in-flight entertainment, meal service and more.
The UAL board of directors has suspended its compensation through the end of the year and has suspended the quarterly common stock dividend.
The company has made every effort to minimize the number of people affected by the furloughs and has put together severance packages and other voluntary options for the various employee groups affected by the workforce reduction.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1365 times:
The press release says that UA lost $1.16 billion for the third quarter-that's the figure they report to the government. Yet if you DON'T include "special charges"-the accounting stuff, basically, the company loss $542 million for the quarter.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1312 times:
Let me tell you something, coyoteguy:
The difference is about 50%, not exactly immaterial!
The difference is partially cash-irrelevant, that is a very big deal for ten thousands of UA employees!!!
The overall loss includes payments from US Government, i.e. the loss is already netted, that is really bad!
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1305 times:
No, they did not lose 1.16 bn., only as bookkeeping figure. What counts is how much cash you burn; an impairment does not burn any cash, it is a number in the UA financial statement.
I know this is somewhat hard to understand, but it is nonetheless correct. Take it from somebody who deals with these numbers professionally on a daily basis.
btw: You are right! The situation is bad enough!
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1246 times:
Some other news (and maybe more important) UA still has around USD 2.1 billion in cash. However each day they loose USD 15 mio of their cash reserves (this includes the aid from the US government) . Thus if the circumstances remain the same they have cash for 140 days (almost 0.5 year). However, highly unlikely that UA will not intervene if conditions remain to be bad.
I still wonder why Goodwin said that UA could be bankrupt by the end of the year (probably to get more aid from the US government).
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1231 times:
I believe you are absolutely right. Given the cash number you just posted, it will even last longer, as your calculation assumes no changes in cost structure, and for UA's sake let us hope the new CEO does know a few things to slow cashburning-rate!
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1227 times:
Wow....six more YEARS of losses and they MAY go under...
It's a lot of money...but not to the airline industry...or to United.
It's a healthy wake up call for the new leadership to start making some very dramatic changes.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1212 times:
Andreas you're quite right that profit doesn't count. Profit is a measurement which you can influence very easy with accounting tricks (and doesn't say anything).
Moreover, do you it's true that First Call estimated a loss even before the attacks on September 11th. I can recall something like they were going too loose $1.34 cents a share or something like that.
BTW for those thinking this loss is very high wait untill you'll see the statement of Q4. The First Call consensus estimate for Q4 seems to be a loss of $13.45 a share if my recollection is correct. We'll probably get the same reaction on this forum from some forum members who probably can't read (or don't read) the exact statement the airline issues and only read the headlines from the newsreports (who usually don't give the real picture).
Coyoteguy From Mexico, joined Oct 2001, 437 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1197 times:
Thanks Lj for pointing this out to those of us who are unable to read. I believe the point is that it is a hell of a lot of money to lose, and surely if it continues over too many quarters, UA will be gone.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1187 times:
I just read that UAL has even more cash than I already mentioned. UAL has USD 2.7 billion in cash including a USD 391 million grant from the US government. Thus UAL will be flying for at least 180 days. I think we must praise UAL that they held their debt sale in August (which generated USD 1.5 billion in cash) and not after September 11th.
Coyoteguy, I hope I haven't offended you or anyone else with my remark about "those who can't read" or "those who don't read". I regret saying that. I only wanted to make clear that usually the headlines don't tell the exact story of the numbers.
PSU_DTW_SCE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1134 times:
Keep in mind that AA & UA's losses are extrordinarily large this quarter because they each lost 2 aircraft apiece. All the costs associated with the loss of two aircraft, and tending to families of the victims puts an added burden on those to carriers that shouldn't appear in 4Q.
Coyoteguy From Mexico, joined Oct 2001, 437 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1091 times:
Thanks N178UA for pointing that out... but please re-check my original post. I didn't say that they had lost $1.16 Billion in any particular time frame - I merely posted a headline from MSNBC for everyone's information and further investigation if desired. Please read posts thoroughly before responding, think carefully and post precisely.
25 Che: Man thats harsh. I bet UA wished they did things a little better in the summer befor last. Though no one expected anything like this(sept 11) to happe
26 Cx flyboy: Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
27 DouglasDC8: In addition to the $2.7 billion cash on hand UA also owns $4 billion worth of aircraft that can be sold and leased back as a cash generating measure.