DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4402 posts, RR: 37 Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 777 times:
Welcome to the club, GSOFlyer...medium-size airports all over the place have been hit hard. Upstate New York has lost 30 percent of its air service since Sept. 11.
Whether "demand" has dropped enough to warrant all these cuts is very much in the eye of the beholder. At reasonable fares, the Cartel Six would probably have much better demand on these routes. But they have to charge sky-high fares to feed their cost structures, so they're slashing flights because they can't charge enough right now to make money.
People know the airlines need them now, so they're demanding lower fares. To some extent the Cartel is offering them. But to a greater extent they're simply slashing flights.
Meanwhile, Southwest reports that their BWI station achieved *pre-Sept. 11 traffic levels* by mid-October.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6364 posts, RR: 34 Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 749 times:
Hmmm, do you think the reason that GSO is losing traffic might possibly be due to the sky-high fares there, compared to the fares out of RDU?
Business trip to Chicago leaving Monday, November 5, returning Thursday, November 8.
Lowest fare for GSO-ORD on Orbitz (connecting between US Airways and United at BWI): $762 round-trip
Lowest fare for BWI-MDW on Southwest.com (non-stop RDU-MDW): $190.50 round-trip
Sometimes it's necessary to deal with a bit of inconvenience to save $500+ dollars. I doubt that GSO will lose much more service (aside from possible downgrades from mainline to RJ's), but I think that's likely the future for most small-to-medium-sized airports that don't have significant low-fare competition.
Jean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2106 posts, RR: 23 Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 736 times:
any more word on Pan Am III coming to gso? I know you said a few months ago that you had heard rumours. I know that PA3 is adding PIE and BWI? Maybe they could throw in gso while they're at it? Seems like maybe the demand could be there now... assuming people in greensboro want to fly to places like allentown and portsmouth, that is!
Ryefly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1383 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 725 times:
I think all airports are strugling right now. Looking at the North Carolina airports GSO is about on par with the other airports. Remember RDU lost Midway airlines entirely, as well as United. CLT has scaled back greatly as well. On September 10 CLT offered service to London, Frankfurt, and Paris. Now it's just London. the domestic flights have scaled back also. I think the flights will return some day. There is plenty of demand for all three area airports. For example I drove to GSO from CLT for a Continental Flight to EWR earlier this month. My flight was originally a 737-300 scaled back to a ERJ. The flight was over booked by 30 passengers. My opinion, a mistake on Continental's part. On my return flight which was a 737-500, every seat including the jump seat was taken. The airlines will bounce back on these destinations as more passengers fly.
Bigmikenice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 721 times:
Yeah not all mid-sized airports are hurting anymore. It could just be the region. PVD is back to where it was in August. Flights are departing at 75%-80% full now, and our service area is in the neighborhood of 1.8 to 2.0 million, like GSO. We are even getting upgrades, from (financially-speaking) losers like UA, CO, and DL.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 685 times:
What totally confuses me is how an area like RDU, that has 500,000 less people supports 150 more lfights per day. With more Southwest, more Airtran, more NW, and more US Air.
It's getting more and more irritating to travel all the time. For example, Northwest flew 4 DC-9s from GSO to DTW, now only 3. But I was NEVER on a NW flight that ever had any less than capacity. In fact, I have never been on any flight from GSO that was less than totally full, even now. And even on Air Canada. Airtran scaled back to 3 flights per day, and every flight there was capacity too.
What we desperately need is a low fair carrier. Or we need Pan Am. We need something, because Airtran is not helping the Cartel prices. And that is what pushes people to RDU. But without prices lowering, people will continue to do that, and as long as they are willing, there will be nothing GSO can do to get flights in, the airlines will continue to expand in RDU.
On the otherhand, Delta picked up some of the pieces, most flights from here to ATL are 757 flights.
its just irritating, I'm getting to the point that I'd much rather drive now.
Chrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1774 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 671 times:
Having been to Greensboro, Charlotte, and Raleigh, I'll say that GSO is the least attractive airport in NC. Just a year ago, they banned smoking, the terminal still selled like smoke when I landed there in July. Plus, Greensboro does not have the room, or the infastructure to support a hub, like Raleigh or Charlotte. I just wasn't impressed with it that much.
Granted, I still fly there because it's dirt cheep. And, it's close to the birthplace of Krispy Kreme!
I'm suprised Delta switched Atlanta to 757s. All the flights I've been on were 1/2-3/4 full, on M88s or 727s.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 659 times:
Well, its also the oldest of the three. The other two were revamped in the past few years.
But now GSO is going under major refurbishing of the terminal, expanding the North Concourse (not that that matters now!) Expanding runway 14/32 to be 10001 ft. And have the plans for the new parrallel runway, if the FAA approves the FedEx hub.
And why wouldn't it smell like smoke? RJ Reynolds probably has a say in that since they are so close
As for dirt cheap? I don't know what you are talking about, its very expensive to fly in and out of GSO!
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31118 posts, RR: 73 Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 656 times:
GSOFlyer, Raleigh is an area of over 1.025M people. Needless to say, however, Greensboro 1.141M people. I think AA should add some MIA-GSO flights. Maybe the loss of thier ORD-GSO route could bring MIA-GSO flights to light, on RJs, thrice daily.
Ryefly From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1383 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 625 times:
It's true that Raleigh/Durham is roughly about the same size as the Triad (Winston Salem, Greensboro, Highpoint). The total is more like 1.2 million for each not 1.8, but that's besides the point. The location of GSO may be the reason it can't compete right now. First of all on a road map GSO is about 90 miles smack in the middle from both RDU and CLT. It's true that it would make more sense for GSO to be the largest because of this if you were to build them all right now. But the fact that CLT is a major hub for US Airways and RDU was greatly expanded for American Airlines in 80's and Midway in the 90's, the two airports offer a much bigger facility then GSO. Both airports offer triple or quadrouple the ammount of gates compaired to GSO, from all the past expansions. RDU was lucky because after American pulled out the facility became a free for all. It took a while but soon Midway was booming, and then Metro jet, Air Tran, Delta Express, and Southwest came and the airport went from one of the most expensive to fly out of to one of the cheapest. Maybe Raleigh has the airport manager to thank or the high profile companies moving to the area. In any event CLT and RDU now make more sense for flights to originate from rather then GSO because it is a short distance by car to each of them from the Triad. GSO will never fall victim to commercial traffic like Smith Reynolds (INT) did. That airport is just way to close to GSO to ever compete (5 minutes by air, 25 minutes by car) Personally I think GSO should have expanded when they had the chance as Continental Lite was thriving there for some time. Maybe they would be in a better situation now. One thing is for sure, GSO must get the Fed Ex hub to see any large expansion from the airlines. I think it will happen, and when it does GSO might step up to RDU and try and take some of it's traffic. But by then what will RDU have going for it?
As for the Delta 757 service to ATL from GSO, I was surpised to hear that. Their schedule only indicates one 757 flight right now. It's mainly 737-800, MD-80, 727 traffic but it's an interesting move to see Delta do. Did they eliminate a flight and combine two MD-80 flights into one 757 flight? I actually saw one of their 737-800's when I was there earlier this month. It was in the shuttle color scheme. I thought that was odd, I guess because DCA was not open they had the aircraft on other routes or something.
Gsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1090 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 621 times:
Actually, I just looked up Census Data:
CLT - 1.6 Million (Charlotte, Gastonia Rock Hill)
GSO - 1.4 Million (High Point, Greensboro, Winston-Salem)
RDU - 1.2 Million (Raleigh, Durham)
First off, The FedEx hub is a BIG argument point in High Point and Greensboro. Winston-Salem doesn't care too much since it doesn't affect it too much. But High Point is against it since most flights take off right over the most populated and wealthy part of the city (Believe me, the Delta 727s are too loud to talk over 10 miles away from the airport on takeoff too).
Anyhow, RyeFly said "One thing is for sure, GSO must get the Fed Ex hub to see any large expansion from the airlines". Now I sort of agree, but how are adding another runway and increasing cargo facilities going to bring in more Airlines? Bringing in FedEx doesn't enhance the passenger terminal at all.
Second, Greensboro had plans before 9/11 to increase the North Concourse by 7-12 Gates. That's great and all, but why do this when there are 2 Gates that aren't being utilized now. I personally think this will be done to get Southwest in (as Southwest has said they will serve there soon).
Granted RDU fed off the success of having the Research Triangle nearby. And that boom has helped their airport in more ways than one. But now I just do not see where Greensboro has a chance to succeed. With people so willing to drive to RDU (and Roanoke even) from Greensboro, why should airlines add service, they can add service in RDU and benefit both areas, unfortunately.
I've been saying for years that if Greensboro was managed well, they could have pulled in alot of airlines from RDU, and served RDU, GSO, and CLT all at one time. But none never tried this, except for Shuttle America, Eastwind (which DID do well), and CO Lite (and we know where that is now).
Who knows what will happen. Even though JetBlue is considering GSO service, they will probably add Charlotte. America West is going to RDU soon. Midwest Express is at RDU. And Pan Am has yet to start service. The expansion looks bleak.
I am going to have to bite the bullet and start driving to RDU.
N757AT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 610 times:
Charleston, SC has lost 15 flights from our flight schedule according to my lastest OAG. We peaked at
65 departures during the summer but now we are down to 45 and have lost Corporate Express to RDU, TWE to St. Louis, Delta has pulled 3 flights to ATL, and all nonstop service to DCA is gone. US Airways has pulled all the A319/A320 service to CLT and replaced them with the Boeing 737-300 but we get a A321 once a day.
Delta's service to ATL was once mostly 757s, now we get 2 757s, 738s and MD88s. United Express did phase out the J41s and now fly only the CRJs on the IAD route.