TR From UK - England, joined May 2001, 953 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 813 times:
Well it´s not the first time that an airline challenges SAS on it´s home ground. However Ryanair will - like others before - find it more difficult to win a battle with SAS than it might seem from the outside! There will be no cheep airports to operate from and SAS has just opened up for EuroBonus (it´s frequent flyer programme) on domestic swedish flights! Ryanair might be able to press the fares down but I don´t think they´ll ever be able to beet SAS!
Airblue From San Marino, joined May 2001, 1825 posts, RR: 12 Reply 2, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 788 times:
In any case it seems to have more sense enter in a consolidate market in a monopoly situation like the Swedish and Norwigian markets than open a new hub at 100 Km from Frankfurt and called it as Frankfurt-Hahn airport.
Even if the airport fee and taxes in Scandinavia are higher than in others country, they sure could offer cheaper fares than SAS and even if the fares FR could offer there aren't £1 one way, but only 20/25% less than SK, it will be a good advantage to attract new pax.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 3, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 756 times:
It will be a pleasure to watch Ryanair realising their expansion plans. Does that sound sarcastic? Well it was meant that way:
1. By growing fast, Ryanair will encounter a problem that is not completely new in aviation, as all intercontinental network carriers have it: Fixed costs! Let's see how Mr. Bigmouth copes with that one.
2. By offering services on profitable routes, they will have to battle the homeboys (LH in Germany, SAS in Scandinavia).These will react by adjusting their prices and will not be capable anymore of financing low- or non-profitable routes, and therefore will give those routes up, ground or sell aircraft, give up hubs, outsource maintenance to companies who offer cheapest (think of airport security), fire thousands of people. Very well, not the problem of Ryanair, some might say. Yes, right, but it will become one as governments will then be ready to re-regulate aviation and they will see to it, that their locals get treated a bit better.
I may be wrong, but let's wait and see what happens.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4326 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 716 times:
Andreas, Ryanair already announced it will undercut every price LH will charge. Given Ryanair's desire to acquire 50 (second hand?) B737's they must at one point challenge the big guys. Moreover as these big guys aren't doing well right now (for some European airlines this is an understatement).
However I agree. We've seen a lot of airlines in the past which expanded too fast and went bankrupt after a few years.
Let's hope Ryanair will succeed in its attack on SAS and LH.
SailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 702 times:
They plan to attack LH too? Well, I wish them good luck (dont get me wrong I like LH) since competition is always good, but I don't see how this should work out, because of a number of reasons:
1) Most LH passengers fly out of / into FRA & MUC. Both are amonst the Top 10 expensive airports in the world. Ryan cannot operate there with their structure.
2) About 60% of the passengers on those flights have connections. You CANNOT make them use Ryan to goto Hahn, then ferry them 2 hours to FRA so that they catch their connection. By the way, interline tickets are more expensive than in-line tickets.
3) Time is important. Germany is different than Scandinavia. It's small. They would not only have to compete against LH, DI (hope they survive) and some other carriers, but also against the railway and germans' love, the car. This is going to be hard.
4) Few airports are avialable. Ok, some might consider Hahn 'near' FRA (2 hours) but near DUS, most airports are at least well-established regional airport will hell of operation curfews, some are available near MUC, HAM and BER, but with insufficient infrastructure.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 685 times:
Basically I agree with you, but one point remains open:
If they already announce they will undercut LH prices at any rate, the won't make a profit, as LH will answer by cutting prices, too. LH has a few competitive advantages: Service on all relevant routes covering all relevant passenger groups (I don't see the latter with Ryanair servicing Hahn in connection with business travellers, they will stick to LH or other carriers that enables them to reach their connecting flight.). If Ryanair believes it can do without them, ok. Though if you think about Sept. 11, it was mostly the business people who got back onboard first).
Ryanair has yet to encounter all the difficulties of a network airline.
Capt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 677 times:
There seems to be a lot of anti-Ryanair people on these forums lately-and for no good reason, other than they seem to take the attitude "how dare this silly little airline challenge the holy Lufthansa/SAS/_add_your_own_expensive_airline".
If thier growth backfires, so what? If they don't fly to your own favourite airport, so what? Don't fly them!
But the statistics show many more people are very happy to fly Ryanair-why are the big airlines so scared of them? Because they are a viable threat, and have already proved it, by throwing Lufthansa out of Stansted!
I am not against the national airlines, but I think people have to realise that what Ryanair is doing is GREAT! They are being innovative, they are being intuitive, they are bringing us all low fares and more choice!
Of course they fly to alternative airports, but here are two things to remember;
1) Not ALL passengers wish to travel to the Capital or major city
2) I would rather fly into a smaller, less crowded and efficient airport (immigration queues etc.) and pay MUCH, MUCH LESS, than fly a short flight and spend over $100 dollars for it.
All the people I have spoken to (outside of aviation, my friends, collegues and the public in general) have all said airlines such as ryanair are fantastic, they love them; their profits and full flights, I think, prove this.
I get the distinct impression certain posters are a little "jealous" because of the impact on their "favourite" big airlines-who I think would be better to concentrate a little more on the long-haul ops.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 658 times:
it's not personal, and I'm not jealous. Please read my postings again and you will find out there are certain economical problems arising from the situation as it is in Germany and elsewhere. We are trying to discuss these, nothing else. Now if you want to contribute, fine, if not, fine, too, but don't jump to conclusions that are somewhat...funny.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4326 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 647 times:
Andreas, as you probably know the yield on point-to-point traffic is better than on tranfer traffic. Moreover, certain sectors are profitable on its own right (for example AMS-London is one of the most profitable routes in Europe and you won't find many transfer pax on most flights).
Moreover, Ryanair aims at the price sensative (business)traveler. This means that they don't aim at the traffic of multinationals but aim at the small to medium size businesses which are more price sensative. BTW You probably haven't flown with a low cost operator or else you would have known that these low-co's are very popular with business travelers (at least in the Uk and The Netherlands) and make a lot of money from these market (as these passengers don't pay the lowest fares).
As SAS still have a high cost base they should worry. Moreover, as this time they can't buy out the competition (seems to be one of SAS' main strategy).
Finally, easyJet is also studying plans to enter the Nordic market (at this moment they're negotiating with CPH airport).
BTW Does anyone know if Bromma airport in Stockholm can handle B737-800s?
GOT From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 1912 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 644 times:
I think that Ryan Air can challange SAS on some routes in Sweden. For many people in northern Sweden flying is the only alternative when going to southern Sweden. I'm sure that many of the private flight may move to Ryan Air, but only if you're going to Stockholm, where they probably will start the service from.
But all the business passengers will stay with SAS. Why should they go to Västerås or Skavsta, about an hour from Stockholm? It's even worse if they're connecting to other cities in Europe.
It will be interesting to see how Ryan Air will do. They can compete with SAS, but they can never beat them.
Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
Vikingivest From Norway, joined Nov 2001, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 634 times:
SAS might have introduced their frequent flyer programme on national routes this week, but both the Swedish and the Norwegian government is looking into banning same on national routes, to improve competition.
It was actually discussed in the Norwegian storting this week with an overvelming majority for a ban effective early next 2002.
Vikingivest From Norway, joined Nov 2001, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 620 times:
Capt.Picard: what the Scandinavian governments is trying to do is make it easier for new entrants to the market to get a foothold, by removing a distortion favorising established airlines.
Startups in the Scandinavian market has had a hard time reaching passengers that do not pay themselves, f.ex. civil servants, but in fact get a backhander from SAS for chosing the more expencive service. Look at Color Air, and Braathen's Swedish offshots all likvidated last year.
Capt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (12 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 611 times:
Sure, that does seem unfair, but in general I beleive governments should stay out of business-related decisions; more often than not, they make things a lot worse.
The same sort of situation that you describe above also exists in the US, where US officials on government business are obliged to fly only US airlines. I think they ought to choose airlines on merit, rather than on nationalistic grounds!