PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1843 times:
In the United States only US vessels (this includes ships and airplanes) can carry cargo and passengers in Domestic routes. Its made to protect the US airlines so that in a war time sitution we have a large pilot pool to use. It works with the airlines, but unfornatuly it hasn't been to successful at sea, the merchant marines are damn near wiped out.
Jer32382 From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 34 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1831 times:
Currently they can't do this. But with the debate for so called "openskies" heating up again, you might see it in the coming years. Foriegn carriers operating in the US and US carriers operating overseas.
PPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1766 times:
I highly doubt that Open Skies will take over in the United States, look what happened to the merchant marines, when they allowed some opening up of the rules. We rarely see them, in fact during Desert Storm there was a little bit of a shipping shortage, and the ones that were hired from other countries didn't want to become involved for the risk of their lives. I personally would oppose an Open Skies Act, not that competition is bad, or that foriegn airlines are better or worse than US airlines, but due to the fact during a war time situatuion the US needs a stockpile of cargo pilots.
Dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2365 posts, RR: 15 Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1720 times:
I don't think KLM operates JFK-ATL. I just went to their site. I couldn't buy a ticket to anywehere from ATL on a KLM aircraft. All they showed were codeshares on NW.
I don't think anyone currently has cabotage rights in the US. Even with Open Sky agreements cabatoge will be unheard of. What we will see is AF will be allowed to fly from anywhere in France to anywhere in the US. They may fly CDG-ATL-LAX, but no pax would be allowed to purchase tickets for just the ATL-LAX leg. The reverse would also be true. DL could not sell from CDG to another French city.
Cabatoge rights have always been nearly impossible to get. Pan Am only got them in Germany as a result of WWII.
Mcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1679 times:
Ba777-236 wrote: "I think that Canada is going to have 'open skies' sometime within the next few years."
Transport Minister David Collenette is dragging his heels on this, saying that he has no intention of allowing cabotage.
However, opinion might be starting to sway. With Canada 3000 becoming the latest of numerous carriers to disappear on Collenette's watch, the minister's assertion that he will only entertain solutions that stay within the current no-cabotage, no-foreign-ownership rules is starting to sound weak.
Foreign ownership might come before cabotage. If Air Canada's woes put it in a 'fix it, sell it or kill it' scenario, allowing a foreign buyer to acquire the airline might be an easier sell politically than either renationalisation or bankruptcy.
HlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1654 times:
If I'm not mistaken didn't Aerolineas Argentinas used to fly between Miami and JFK with smaller aircraft. I was quite sure some South American Airline set up a small hub in Miami a few years back.
What about Lan Chile? They seem to have a lot of flights into Miami too.
Also, I think for a while back in the 80's Sabena used to do that with 737-200s, because I saw a Sabena 737-200 at DTW. My guess is that it flew back and forth from DTW to ORD. I would also see 747s and DC-10s from Sabena at Detroit, but they would take off and head west.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31107 posts, RR: 74 Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1638 times:
Iberia still has a hub in Miami. It is four A319s. But all the flights are international. None are domestic. Air France also has three aircraft in Miami - one A320 and two Air France Regional/Air Caribes ERJ-145s. Again, they fly from MIA to outside the US. Aerolineas Argentinas did have a 727 based in MIA a while back. I don't know were they flew it, though. LanChile's MIA operations are very extensive - Santiago, Lima, Quito, Guayquil, Caracas, Bogota, Cancun, and Punta Cana. But again, all these are international flights. This is called Fifth Freedom. El Al's North American division, for the winter, will only be operating MIA-JFK, and I believe some ORD-JFK. In the past, they operated LAX-JFK, but LAX is being combined with YYZ using a 767. Word is that El Al will be taking both of North American's 737-800 and painting them in thier own scheme and using them in Israel (or maybe even in the US), and making MIA non-stop to TLV (or using a NAA 752 to JFK). I believe LY owns 49.9% of North American.
Mfricke From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 266 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1624 times:
Pan Am (and then United) had traffic rights from Heathrow on to five European cities (Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki). This was established under Juan Trippe after WW II, when flights had to make many stops between New York and their final European destination. The Intra-European routes were maintained in the jet era, but note that none are domestic flights, all are fifth freedom international flights.
As for Heathrow, in 1980 Senator Ted Kennedy negotiated a new route for Pan Am, Boston to Heathrow. Under this agreement, the British limited Heathrow to ONLY Pan Am and TWA, and/or their corportae successors (United and American, for the LHR routes). That is why Air New Zealand can fly from LAX to LHR, but only two US carriers can.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31107 posts, RR: 74 Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1605 times:
Murf, LAX-HNL is a domestic route. AirNZ cannot sell tickets on this segment. What they can do is sell them to people who flew AKL-HNL. Here is an example. If someone in Tel Aviv wants to take a trip to Miami and NYC, they can fly El Al on TLV-JFK, then stay in NYC for three days, and then fly El Al on the JFK-MIA segment. Some intra-US routes:
South African Airways FLL-ATL
El Al/NAA MIA-JFK
Aerolineas Argentinas MIA-JFK (coming back soon)
ANA ORD-IAD (ends this week)
Korean Air DFW-ATL (suspended for now)
Qantas JFK-LAX (last flight is this week!)
British Airways CLT-BWI
Not domestic, but Royal Air Maroc flies JFK-YMQ, Cathay Pacific flies YVR-JFK, and El Al flies LAX-YYZ.
In the past, Varig has flown ATL-IAD and MIA-MCO, Lufthansa has flown CLT-DFW, British Airways has flown IAD-MIA (Concorde), LanChile JFK-MIA, and Egypt Air JFK-LAX. The list goes on and on.
Also keep in mind US carriers also operate routes in between other countries with full passenger carrying rights. American Airlines flies Sao Paulo-Asuncion (extension of MIA-GRU) and Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extension of MIA-EZE). United flies Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extention of ORD-EZE) as well. Both United and Northwest have a large presence at Tokyo Narita flying many routes out of that airport. United also flew, just prior to 9/11, HKG-SIN. That route is suspened through Spring, for now.
As for Heathrow, from US carriers, only UA/AA and from UK only VS/BA, as everyone knows. This does not exclude carriers from other countries. Air India flies JFK-LHR, for example. Not every carrier can, though. SQ wants JFK-LHR, but has had no luck.
Carriers with 5th Freedom in the United States include Air France (from MIA), Iberia (MIA), Air India (JFK), AirNZ (LAX), Qantas (LAX), Martinair Holland (MIA), Surinam Airways (MIA), LanChile (MIA, LAX, JFK), Varig (LAX), Cathay Pacific (JFK), Singapore (ORD, LAX, SFO, EWR, JFK), Kuwait Airlines (ORD, JFK), Royal Jordanian (JFK), Ethiopian (JFK, IAD), South African (JFK), and a few others.