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Non-US Airlines In The US  
User currently offlineGsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Posted (14 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4224 times:

I've been wondering this lately.
Are non-US Based airlines allowed to fly domestic routes in the US?

Say, Could Air Canada fly to atlanta, then to LA and back to YYZ?

Or Could British Airways do the same?

Or could any of them set up hubs here? (Didn't Pan Am have hubs at Heathrow and JFK or something?)


37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineOO-AOG From Switzerland, joined Dec 2000, 1426 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (14 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4124 times:

They can fly domestic sectors but they cannot off/onload passengers while on the domestic leg, unless special authorization is granted by the country's CAA.
This is called cabotage.

Falcon....like a limo but with wings
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (14 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

In the United States only US vessels (this includes ships and airplanes) can carry cargo and passengers in Domestic routes. Its made to protect the US airlines so that in a war time sitution we have a large pilot pool to use. It works with the airlines, but unfornatuly it hasn't been to successful at sea, the merchant marines are damn near wiped out.

At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineJer32382 From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (14 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Currently they can't do this. But with the debate for so called "openskies" heating up again, you might see it in the coming years. Foriegn carriers operating in the US and US carriers operating overseas.

User currently offlineBa777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (14 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

I think that Canada is going to have 'open skies' sometime within the next few years. Then allowing non-us airlines to do domestic routes.

I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (14 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

I highly doubt that Open Skies will take over in the United States, look what happened to the merchant marines, when they allowed some opening up of the rules. We rarely see them, in fact during Desert Storm there was a little bit of a shipping shortage, and the ones that were hired from other countries didn't want to become involved for the risk of their lives. I personally would oppose an Open Skies Act, not that competition is bad, or that foriegn airlines are better or worse than US airlines, but due to the fact during a war time situatuion the US needs a stockpile of cargo pilots.

At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineThe_Greq From Netherlands, joined Sep 2000, 181 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (14 years 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Thanks to the Open Skies agreement, KLM is allowed to fly between JFK and Atlanta for example.
There are a lot of terms of conditions to operate this shedule.

User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2801 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (14 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

I don't think KLM operates JFK-ATL. I just went to their site. I couldn't buy a ticket to anywehere from ATL on a KLM aircraft. All they showed were codeshares on NW.

I don't think anyone currently has cabotage rights in the US. Even with Open Sky agreements cabatoge will be unheard of. What we will see is AF will be allowed to fly from anywhere in France to anywhere in the US. They may fly CDG-ATL-LAX, but no pax would be allowed to purchase tickets for just the ATL-LAX leg. The reverse would also be true. DL could not sell from CDG to another French city.

Cabatoge rights have always been nearly impossible to get. Pan Am only got them in Germany as a result of WWII.

User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 4028 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (14 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Gsoflyer- Pan Am's hub was at FRA, and Delta got it after Pan Am went under.

I wonder how British Airways, Air France, etc. would fare if they started a US division. Would they be big, or disappear after a while? Kinda interesting to think about.


Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineGregg From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (14 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

These rules is why some foreign airlines like to do a stop in the US, then one in Canada or Mexico, so they can cary pax.

User currently offlineMjzair From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (14 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

If I am not mistaken, El Al heavily funds North American to act as a feeder from smaller markets to which it does not fly. I wonder if we will see more of this..

User currently offlineMcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (14 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

Ba777-236 wrote: "I think that Canada is going to have 'open skies' sometime within the next few years."

Transport Minister David Collenette is dragging his heels on this, saying that he has no intention of allowing cabotage.

However, opinion might be starting to sway. With Canada 3000 becoming the latest of numerous carriers to disappear on Collenette's watch, the minister's assertion that he will only entertain solutions that stay within the current no-cabotage, no-foreign-ownership rules is starting to sound weak.

Foreign ownership might come before cabotage. If Air Canada's woes put it in a 'fix it, sell it or kill it' scenario, allowing a foreign buyer to acquire the airline might be an easier sell politically than either renationalisation or bankruptcy.

User currently offlineRwy31R From Saudi Arabia, joined Aug 2001, 454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (14 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3887 times:

as far as I know IB has a hub in Miami, but it only serves international routes to central and south america.

"Saudia Three Five hold short Three One Right"
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (14 years 3 days ago) and read 3873 times:

If I'm not mistaken didn't Aerolineas Argentinas used to fly between Miami and JFK with smaller aircraft. I was quite sure some South American Airline set up a small hub in Miami a few years back.

What about Lan Chile? They seem to have a lot of flights into Miami too.

Also, I think for a while back in the 80's Sabena used to do that with 737-200s, because I saw a Sabena 737-200 at DTW. My guess is that it flew back and forth from DTW to ORD. I would also see 747s and DC-10s from Sabena at Detroit, but they would take off and head west.

User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (14 years 3 days ago) and read 3860 times:

Didn't Iberia use some 5 md 80's some years ago, to connect passengers to and from MIAMI.

Where this flights to the caribbean, or within the US?

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34126 posts, RR: 70
Reply 15, posted (14 years 3 days ago) and read 3857 times:

Iberia still has a hub in Miami. It is four A319s. But all the flights are international. None are domestic. Air France also has three aircraft in Miami - one A320 and two Air France Regional/Air Caribes ERJ-145s. Again, they fly from MIA to outside the US. Aerolineas Argentinas did have a 727 based in MIA a while back. I don't know were they flew it, though. LanChile's MIA operations are very extensive - Santiago, Lima, Quito, Guayquil, Caracas, Bogota, Cancun, and Punta Cana. But again, all these are international flights. This is called Fifth Freedom. El Al's North American division, for the winter, will only be operating MIA-JFK, and I believe some ORD-JFK. In the past, they operated LAX-JFK, but LAX is being combined with YYZ using a 767. Word is that El Al will be taking both of North American's 737-800 and painting them in thier own scheme and using them in Israel (or maybe even in the US), and making MIA non-stop to TLV (or using a NAA 752 to JFK). I believe LY owns 49.9% of North American.

User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (14 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3847 times:

ANZ flies LAX-LHR-LAX, don't they? While that isn't a domestic route, I find it strange that they can operate in that market. That's like UA or AA flying (nonstop)LHR-MEL or something.

I can understand if ANZ were to use LAX as a fuel stop between AKL and LHR, but I believe ANZ sells tickets on the LAX-LHR-LAX route.

I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineMurf From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (14 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3843 times:


I think you're right about Air NZ selling LAX-LHR-LAX tickets. I think they also sell tickets LAX-HNL-LAX.

Seams kinda strange that a foreign airline can fly US to Heathrow, but there are other US airlines wanting to fly to Heathrow and they can't.

United is allowed to sell tickets AKL-MEL-AKL, so that is probably why Air NZ can do that in US now that I think about it.


User currently offlineMfricke From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 282 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (14 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Pan Am (and then United) had traffic rights from Heathrow on to five European cities (Munich, Berlin, Hamburg, Brussels, Amsterdam, Helsinki). This was established under Juan Trippe after WW II, when flights had to make many stops between New York and their final European destination. The Intra-European routes were maintained in the jet era, but note that none are domestic flights, all are fifth freedom international flights.

As for Heathrow, in 1980 Senator Ted Kennedy negotiated a new route for Pan Am, Boston to Heathrow. Under this agreement, the British limited Heathrow to ONLY Pan Am and TWA, and/or their corportae successors (United and American, for the LHR routes). That is why Air New Zealand can fly from LAX to LHR, but only two US carriers can.

ONT - Southern California's Ontario!
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (14 years 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

In addition to LAX-LHR, Air New Zealand also flies (flew?) LAX-FRA, and US passengers can buy a r/t on the route.

Australia, New Zealand, and the US have an interesting air relationship.

Air NZ flies LAX-SYD non-stop.
Qantas flies LAX-AKL non-stop.
United flies AKL-MEL non-stop (and I believe NZ and Aussie pax can buy r/trips from United on this route).

While none of this is cabotage, it is an example of a third nation's carrier flying paying pax between 2 other countries.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34126 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (14 years 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

Murf, LAX-HNL is a domestic route. AirNZ cannot sell tickets on this segment. What they can do is sell them to people who flew AKL-HNL. Here is an example. If someone in Tel Aviv wants to take a trip to Miami and NYC, they can fly El Al on TLV-JFK, then stay in NYC for three days, and then fly El Al on the JFK-MIA segment. Some intra-US routes:

South African Airways FLL-ATL
Aerolineas Argentinas MIA-JFK (coming back soon)
ANA ORD-IAD (ends this week)
Korean Air DFW-ATL (suspended for now)
Qantas JFK-LAX (last flight is this week!)
British Airways CLT-BWI

Not domestic, but Royal Air Maroc flies JFK-YMQ, Cathay Pacific flies YVR-JFK, and El Al flies LAX-YYZ.

In the past, Varig has flown ATL-IAD and MIA-MCO, Lufthansa has flown CLT-DFW, British Airways has flown IAD-MIA (Concorde), LanChile JFK-MIA, and Egypt Air JFK-LAX. The list goes on and on.

Also keep in mind US carriers also operate routes in between other countries with full passenger carrying rights. American Airlines flies Sao Paulo-Asuncion (extension of MIA-GRU) and Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extension of MIA-EZE). United flies Buenos Aires-Montevideo (extention of ORD-EZE) as well. Both United and Northwest have a large presence at Tokyo Narita flying many routes out of that airport. United also flew, just prior to 9/11, HKG-SIN. That route is suspened through Spring, for now.

As for Heathrow, from US carriers, only UA/AA and from UK only VS/BA, as everyone knows. This does not exclude carriers from other countries. Air India flies JFK-LHR, for example. Not every carrier can, though. SQ wants JFK-LHR, but has had no luck.

Carriers with 5th Freedom in the United States include Air France (from MIA), Iberia (MIA), Air India (JFK), AirNZ (LAX), Qantas (LAX), Martinair Holland (MIA), Surinam Airways (MIA), LanChile (MIA, LAX, JFK), Varig (LAX), Cathay Pacific (JFK), Singapore (ORD, LAX, SFO, EWR, JFK), Kuwait Airlines (ORD, JFK), Royal Jordanian (JFK), Ethiopian (JFK, IAD), South African (JFK), and a few others.

User currently offlineAFa340-300E From France, joined May 1999, 2084 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (14 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Hello MAH4546,

To what destinations do the airlines you mentioned have a 5th freedom please?

Thank you,

Best regards,
Alain Mengus

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 34126 posts, RR: 70
Reply 22, posted (14 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Air France:
Miami to Port-Au-Prince

Miami to Cancun, Guatemala City, Panama City, San Pedro Sula, Managua, San Jose

Air India:
JFK to Heathrow

AirNZ (LAX):
Los Angeles to Sydney, Heathrow

Los Angeles to Auckland

Martinair Holland:
Miami to Aruba, San Jose
Orlando to Aruba

Surinam Airways:
Miami to Curacao

Miami to Bogota, Caracas, Qutio, Guayquil, Punta Cana, Lima, Cancun (soon)

New York to Lima, Guayquil

Los Angeles to Lima

Los Angeles to Tokyo, Nagoya

Cathay Pacific:
JFK to Vancouver
Anchorage to Toronto (suspended for now)

San Francisco to Seoul, Hong Kong, Tokyo
Los Angeles to Taipei, Tokyo, (others?)
Newark to Amsterdam
JFK to Frankfurt
Chicago to Amsterdam

Kuwait Airlines:
Not sure

Royal Jordanian:
JFK to Amsterdam (I think)

Washington Dulles to Rome
JFK to ???

South African:
JFK to Lagos

Los Angeles to Tokyo

Los Angeles to ????
Newark to Dubai (suspended for now)

Aero Continente:
Miami to Guayquil

Miami to Port-Au-Prince

JFK to Sao Paulo

Auckland to Melbourne
Tokyo to Singapore, Hong Kong, Seoul, Bangkok, more?
Buenos Aires to Montevideo

Sao Paulo to Asuscion
Buenos Aires to Montevideo

User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (14 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

MAH4546 --

Good list! I believe you left out a couple:

Air France LAX-PPT (Papeete, Tahiti)
Thai Airways LAX-KIX (Osaka)
Air New Zealand LAX-FRA (Frankfurt) -- they have the rights but they may have suspended service on this route.

User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (14 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Kuwait Airlines:
Not sure


Washington Dulles to Rome
JFK to ???

They serve EWR, not JFK. I don't know where their destination from EWR is, however.

South African:
JFK to Lagos

I thought it was Cape Verde.

"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
25 Tsully : Wow. Thanks, guys for all the information. I could be wrong, but didn't UA fly something like Tokyo-Bankok or something? I seem to think my dad once f
26 Ryu2 : NZ cancelled LAX-FRA, they now codeshare with LH. Yes, UA still flys Tokyo-Bangkok.
27 Post contains images Ryu2 : BTW, there is a funny true story involving the NZ FRA-LAX flight that took place in the eraly 80s. It seems that a student from Oakland, California wa
28 LY772 : LY flies TLV-YYZ-LAX...oh never mind, YYZ-LAX is operating by someone else...uh, NWA, maybe?
29 Docpepz : Talking about taking the wrong plane: SIA operates SIN-NRT-LAX and LAX-NRT-SIN as SQ 12 and 11 respectively. It so happens that SQ 11 and 12 arrive in
30 BAKYUNHAM : My last flight to Vancouver from SFO, was on Philippine Airlines, they have the rights to sell tickets on this route.
31 Jer32382 : It was probably a flight operated by a US carrier. Check out the ICAO five freedoms. I think the one you'd be most interested in in freedom number 5.
32 Aviatsiya : Travelin Man Are you sure that LAX-PPT is 5th freedom for AF, as I don't think French Polynesia negotiates its own air service agreements, as it is st
33 Post contains images ZK-NBT : Air NZ operate between PPT-LAX RAR-LAX NAN-LAX APW-LAX All of these flights originate in AKL but i'm pretty sure NZ sell tickets on these flights. If
34 Gsoflyer : How about this, Are international carriers allowed to haul US Passengers to their hub city, and then to their destination back in the US? For exmaple:
35 Travelin man : If Tahiti is still a part of France, then I guess LAX-PPT on Air France would not be a case of "Fifth Freedom" rights. I thought Tahiti was now its ow
36 MAH4546 : LY772, YYZ-LAX will use LY 767s soon this winter. Ryu2, funny. I remember an episode of Full House was the same exact story. They were all at the airp
37 Jer32382 : I have a packet from my class about the 5 freedoms. I'll read through it and see if i can get yall some definate answers.
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