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Terrorists Learn From Their Mistakes  
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

In a NBC news video there was an interesting theory. It was suggested that the idea of crashing an airliner into a city was a very old idea.

In the late 80's an islamic group planned to crash a 747 in Tel Aviv. They failed to hijack the plane.

In 1994 algerian hijackers managed to seize an Air France A300 which they planned to crash in downtown Paris. They did not make it. The pilots and french authoritis had the plane landed in Marseilles where the security forces successfully ended the situation killing the terrorists.

In a frantic letter at the Time Magazine (January 1995) a reader says that "It was a mistake that you revealed so many details of the operation. The terrorists can read and they will know why they failed. Next time they will be better prepared".

Well, at the September 11 attacks the terrorists knew how to fly the planes themselves.

What do you think of all this?

Kostas






17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIronminds From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 556 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

I don't think it takes a particular genius to come up with the idea of kamikaze-ing a jetliner -- it's just an update on what the Japanese did in WW2.

Also, and this is something I've been surprised that I havent seen anyone mention, but part of the fanciful master plan of the kids who shot up the high school in Littleton, CO, a coupla years ago was to make it to the airport, hijack a plane, and crash it into Manhattan.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5643 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

In a NBC news video there was an interesting theory. It was suggested that the idea of crashing an airliner into a city was a very old idea

Possibly the closest this ever came to happening before September 11 was on April 7, 1994, when about-to-be-fired FedEx flight engineer Auburn Calloway, riding in the jump seat of a DC-10, attacked the three crewmen with a hammer and attempted to kamikaze the plane into FedEx's facility at Memphis International Airport. Calloway very nearly succeeded; the plan was foiled only because the other crewmen, all of whom were seriously injured by the assault, were able to muster up enough strength to fight him off.
Dave Hirschman's 1997 book Hijacked has a description of what might have been that sounds even more chilling in the aftermath of September 11:
A fully loaded DC-10 with twenty thousand gallons of fuel on board would be an awesome weapon. Calloway could plunge it into the FedEx package-sorting hub at Memphis International Airport and instantly turn the sprawling complex into an inferno ... By coming in fast and low, on about a 3-degree trajectory, he could knock out the entire FedEx facility ... Dozens of jet aircraft parked on the FedEx ramp would be reduced to aluminum shrapnel. The blast would ignite massive underground jet-fuel storage tanks, which probably would burn for days. Fed Ex executives would get the message that a catastrophe had happened when the explosion blew out windows in their three-story headquarters less than five miles away.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineMidway DC9-10 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1304 times:

There's no doubt in my mind that the media gives us too much information. I realize that they can figure out many ways to plan attacks, but it doesn't help when every news channel in the country exposes the weak areas in great detail.

Look at how many times you see someone getting through security w/weapons. They know they have a chance that they won't get caught, but why tell them how good their chances are of getting through security at a specific airport.

Just my two sense!

Dave



User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1295 times:

It's too bad the pilots of the four jijacked planes didn't flip the craft upside down like the FEDEX DC-10 pilots did. Thats how the hijacking was foiled. Foreget how many pax would be killed or dead. It's the people on the ground that is a priority as well as whatever target the plane could hit. ie fuel storage depot, nuclear power plant. It's a miricle that Indian Point 2 wasn't on the list of what to take down.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineTWA717_200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1290 times:

Well, I know this for sure. The 9/11 terrorists ruined it for any future hijackers. It will never happen again. The passengers will kill anyone who tries to take over another airliner. For that matter, we don't even really need skymarshalls. Ever pax is one from now on.

User currently offlineIronminds From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 556 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

Dave-

It's two cents, not two "sense," FYI.

Also, it doesn't take media to expose the weakspots in scurity; take a few flights and they become obvious even to someone who's only education has been to memorize the Koran.

Certainly some things get blown out of proportion by the media, and the balance of the news cycle is often out of whack, but until the media start reporting classified information and troop movements, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Journalists are easy to hate (I should know; I am one, and all my ex-girlfriends will tell you what an ass I am), but it's a leap to say news coverage is acting as the terrorists' intelligence service.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

The people of this country have the right to know about any security weaknesses. It's not as if this is proprietary information - the terrorists will figure it out with or without the media's help, if nothing else than through trial and error. They reportedly made a bunch of test runs before 9/11, and a lot of what they did was not related to anything I've ever personally seen covered on the news (like flying on a Tuesday, when the traffic's lightest - I'd never seen any news broadcast say that was a danger; they figured that out themselves). I really don't think the news has anything to do with encouraging terrorist acts; I appreciate being notified of the security concerns the terrorists already either know about or can figure out on their own. Public pressure is what gets these things fixed, and if the public doesn't know about these problems, we can't bring that kind of pressure on the government and the airlines.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineIronminds From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 556 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

Perfectly put, Spacecadet.

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

It wasn't their mistakes that they took advantage of, it was ours.

US security agencies knew who these guys were, they knew something was up, and they knew that airport security was (and is) a joke.

Our mistake was treating these scumbags like normal everyday "guests" in the United States, with all rights and privilidges hereof.

New rule: When in doubt. Lock 'em out.


User currently offlineRyu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1250 times:

Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor, and Dale Brown's Storming Heaven, two books that I've enjoyed a lot, both feature people crashing airliners into major targets as a central plot point.

I wonder if either of those two authors feel guilty now. Probably not, I think, because it's not exactly brilliant thinking on the part of the terrorists to come up with what they did.


User currently offlineFrequentFlyKid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1241 times:

The arguement that the media gives us too much information is a debate that can, and will, go on forever. There are so many angles to that debate its almost worthless debating. Many of you have said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with the idea of crashing a plane into a building or populated area. The facts of September 11, 2001 stand for themselves. We all agree, well at least I hope, that the reason those planes were hijacked and crashed were because of some very disturbed people, to say the least. Many people want to blame airport security and they may have a point, to an extent. Blaming airport security is an easy way out and I think we'd also all agree that airport security is terrible. Even with the post-September 11 "upgrades" it has a long way to go. This brings me to the point that the system allowed those men to hijack and crash the planes. The system allowed them to carry the boxcutters onto the plane and carry-out the hijackings. TWA717 made a great point and one that I brought up earlier in a different topic. The preception of a hijack pre-September 11 was that when a plane was hijacked all the hijackers wanted was to land the plane and collect a ransom or some other political agenda. If the passengers or crew had known when they were hijacked that they would be used as a guided missille they certainly wouldn't have sat around doing nothing as evident in UA #93. The preception of hijackings is now changed forever. If it ever got to the point where someone attempted to hijack a plane every passenger would do whatever it took to subdue the hijackers. This is why I pretty much agree with what TWA717 is saying; that another situation like September 11 will, in all likelyhood, never happen again.

Just my thoughts. I don't want to start a debate about how's fault this was or a debate over the media's role in all of this. Travel safe....


User currently offlineAtwingo From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Ironminds-
It's whose not who's. Who's is the contraction of who and is, FYI.


User currently offlineDe727ups From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 814 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1215 times:

"It's too bad the pilots of the four jijacked planes didn't flip the craft upside down like the FEDEX DC-10 pilots did"

You have to remember that airline pilots have been trained to cooperate and try to calm hijackers....that's been the procedure for years. The 9-11 situation was a new threat and I don't believe it will happen again....no airline pilot will let it happen. My point is the American and United pilots involved got out of their seats or were quickly attacked in their seats and killed. They weren't able to take evasive action. Also, remember the Fedex DC10 had a flight engineer you had to get by before you got to the pilots....not the case in any of the 9-11 attacks. We need to start thinking like the terrorists to figure out the next threat. I'm guessing a hand held anti-aircraft weapon or a bomb smuggled on board by a ramper....ramp security has been a joke for years....I hope it really is getting tighter.


User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1185 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

why blame media? if they can get the classified information then those who give that information are to blame - and if they make they own conlusions - the same way they made it, the terrorist can make same conclusions by themselves, after all if you concentrate on such goal you will certainly come up with more ideas than some journalist with a deadline. I also agree with point made about terrorist having a harder time to control the aircraft now due to pax rebellion. P.S. another example of disgruntled employee kamikaze was when fired Air Botswana pilot destroyed big part of the fleet with his ATR (he at least made sure that he will only damage aircrafts and told his intentions in order to evacuate the crash site)


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

Thanks to the media airlines like PA were exposed of shddy security that led to PA 103 as well as how screwed up Logan is. I don't need an undercover media person to tell you on how bad security is when private mickey mouse firms like Argenbrite based in Chicago runs security at EWR and JFK. Yet UAL still uses them. I hope they go under to their stupidity!

De727ups; too bad they weren't trained like EL AL pilots and it's too bad a FE or a jump seat pilot wasn't there otherwise that many planes weren't hijacked. Badly injured yes but they still would be able to land with 2 or more than two casualites between pax, hijackers and crew on 1 or 2 of the planes. The first plane had no chance but maybe the 2nd or 3rd could. The pax would've been more motivated to take them down!



"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 942 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1091 times:

There is no doubt that terrorists learn from their mistakes. In 1976 a Palestinians terrorists hijacked an Air France flight from Tel-Aviv to Paris via Athens to Uganda. Why so far away (at least this is what they thought)? Because in 1972 (if I’m not wrong) they hijacked a Sabena flight to Tel-Aviv and landed in Tel-Aviv. The Israeli army broke into the plane and took control over it. However, as you know (or not), even Uganda was not far enough and Israeli commando team got there too.

Israel was several times in the past in a “deliberately crash” alert.

In the early 90’s an Iran Air Force Boeing 707 was hijacked by one of its steward. Since Jordan and Saudi Arabia didn’t let the plane to land in their territory, the pilot asked permission to land in Tel-Aviv. Since Israel has a bad relations with Iran there was a fear that it was a suicide mission (At that time Palestinians already started to blowup themselves in busses in Israel). At the end the pilot got permission to land in Ovda airport in south Israel, an airport that he didn’t have to fly over populated areas.
Since it was not a suicide mission the plane landed safely and the hijacker surrendered.

About a year ago a flight from one of the Islamic Republics that was part of the USSR in the past (I don’t remember which one) was hijacked and the hijacker demanded to fly to Tel-Aviv. This time things were more complicated since it was the first weeks of the Palestinian intifada, the hijackers were Moslems and the plane came from the west. The plane was clear again to fly to Ovda airport and he was clear to cross the coast line over Gaza, so if it was a suicide mission, the Palestinians would have it. Once again it ended peacefully.

The last time was in last May, on the first anniversary to Israel retreat from south Lebanon. A small Cessna took off from Lebanon and headed south into Israel. After ignoring the Air Force fighters and helicopters, which even open fire near him, he was shot down when he turned into land 30 Km north to Tel-Aviv after flying over half of Israel west border.

So this things are not new to the world. The USA just was in a deep sleep.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

What about the film 'Fight Club'? I think there were people planning something like that.

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