Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
The Future Of DAT  
User currently offlineCpt. Caveman From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

The future isn't that bad for the new Belgian airline DAT.
This is confirmed yesterday (03/12/2001), by the 2 frontpersons of the investment-group of Maurice Lippens and Etienne Davignon.
The situation around Flemish minister-president Dewael, was all a "misunderstanding".
The new company will start with more than enough money, that anounced was, but this doens't has to come from the gouvernments.

The business-plan exists of 2 fases.
The first fase, there will be a network of only European flights: 34 destinations, with 37 planes. Later there will be added 13 long-distance flights, plus 7 middle-long.
This should create around 2 000 jobs.

The first long-distance destinations would be 3 African's: Entebbe (Uganda), Kigali and Kinshasa.
And this should be ready by the end of this mounth, by Davignon and Co.
With the transatlantic flights will be waited untill next summer 2002.
The 2 persons, Lippens and Davignon said that the airline should be rendabel, even without the second fase.
An safety marge will be created in case that the 115 billion Euro, they need, not will be be found.

Regards  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cpt. Caveman

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1356 times:

Only FIH is remotely viable in terms of pax numbers - and even then the yields are low. Don't forget that SN only operated twice weekly to each of EBB and KGL (with continuation to NBO where most of the pax boarded).

Relations between the DRC and Uganda and Rwanda still have not been normalised, so that precludes a BRU-EBB/KGL-FIH service.

Somehow, I don't think a lot of thought has gone into this process - seems to be mainly an ego thing.


User currently offlineAir Orange From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1350 times:

I just cannot wait to unveil here my Air Belgium logo and livery designs (ex-DAT) which I proposed to DAT/ex-Sabena.

User currently offlineApuneger From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 3032 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1341 times:

The new company will start operations on December 19th. That's a wednesday, right?

Yess, I have no classes then! Maybe I'll drive to the airport to see the very first takeoff, although I doubt I will see the difference between a 'normal' DAT-aircraft and an aircraft of the new company...

Air Orange:

Neither can I...Are you sure you can't show us anyting? When will you be able to disclose the livery/logo? If I take a look at your earlier work, I'm pretty anxious to see it, and I have good faith in you. Something tells me it will be really nice!

Ivan



Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4165 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

When I read about thier plans I´m concerned. 13 long-hauls? Haven´t they learned that too many long-haul flights were the main reason of SN going under? BRU isn´t this big that it could support such a big number of intercontinental-flights. Shouldn´t they first try to consolidate their position within Europe before they start thinking about expanding?

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Hi Air Orange,

I personally hope you've also introduced some of Sabena's latest housestyle in your design....At least the very nice dark blue should be kept at all costs!
And how about the S or the Margritte bird?
Anyway, I thrust you've done a nice job!

At present this is how the SN flights are operated...

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Staffan Hardie


Not too bad, but an improvement is always welcome.


User currently offlineAirDD From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

I hope the new DAT concentrates on Europe.
It is going to be hard setting up (profitable) long-haul flights without being a member of a big alliance.
The Brussels market is too small (not enough multinational companies) to fill widebodies....

Regarding Africa...when is Belgium going to realise the colonizing of Africa is over ...

airDD


User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1295 times:

Sabena's Africa network has always been overrated. Maybe it was profitable, but barely. Air France's Africa network is simply the best of the European airlines. Followed by BA, LH, KL (and if you don't bother to transfer at NBO you probably have a larger network) and TAP.

BTW Sabena hasn't flown for more than a month and it seems as if that nobody misses this airline (except those who miss the rock-bottom ticket prices). If the investors at DAT are smart they stick to Europe.

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

LJ, I must disagree with you on that..

AF certainly has a very nice African network, but several destinations in French speeking Africa (inlcuding ex French colonies) were only availiable on Sabena.

AF had higher frequencies, but with fewer destinations then Sabena. It depends what you consider more important: frequency or diversity.

As to your claim of LH, KL or BA having a NETWORK to Africa. Feeding your pax into a local airline like Air Kenia is not really my idea of having a network to me.


User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Slz396, I don't see why an airline should operate all destinations ex Europe in order to qualify as being part of the network (on this I must disagree). I look at the what an alliance offers and in the case of KLM/Kenya Airways it is more than Sabena (if you look ex Europe with or without transfer at NBO). However, Sabena failed miserably in serving East Africa (apart from Entebbe and Nairobi no destinations in East Africa).

BTW why didn't Sabena try to get an alliance with Kenya Airways? It would have been a very good match (Sabena Western Africa, Kenya Eastern Africa). Maybe an idea for the investors. Ask KLM whether they may codeshare with Kenya Airways in Africa (very cheap way to get into Eastern Africa).

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineHoffa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

What's your problem with Kenya Airways? KLM has spent a lot of time an effort helping KQ become a world class airline and in so doing has created a lasting strategic alliance that can help KLM cover more marginal routes plus give it an increased Africa presence without getting involved directly.

Of course, there are only a few airlines in Africa that can be considered worthy of investing in but KLM should get some credit for not trying to fly to every inhabited city in Africa like Sabena.


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1259 times:

There's nothing wrong with Air Kenia, just that you can not say, I have a daily feeder flight to the hub of a partner airline which serves a particular area very nicely, so I serve that area nicely myself.
If that is how you want to work, fine, but then you'd also have to say Sabena served North America much better then KLM/NW, thanks to its alliance with AA.
You see how totally unrealisitic this approach is?

To me, the best alliance in Africa ever was the AF/SN alliance in the first half of the 1990s.

SN tried to get an alliance with Uganda Airlines, but this was stopped prematurely (once again due to political pressure on both sides).


User currently offlineA330DAT From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1246 times:

Let's hope for the best... I was just on one of their flights, from Madrid to Brussels. ONLY 2 empty seats in an RJ100 (capacity 97) Keep up the good work!

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Staffan Hardie



User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

I am surpirsed that getting at least one or two transatlantic routes opened up is not a priority for the new DAT Plus or Air Belgium. While the transatlantic routes have been hit particularly hard by the recent terrible world events, BRU is severly lacking in service to the US at the moment.......and wouldn't those transatlantic flights help feed the european network?

I am certain that there would be enough traffic at resonable yeilds to operate one A332 flight to JFK and BOS, two well established routes out of BRU.


User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6793 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1245 times:

Most transatlantic routes lose money during the winter; there's no real reason to start them up until demand picks up with the summer season. They'd probably lose less money flying an empty seat on the European network than they would by trying to get someone from North America to connect to that flight by operating transatlantic flights.

BRU still has non-stop service to EWR, PHL, ATL, IAD, and ORD, and connecting service via those airports or a half-dozen European hubs.


User currently offlineHoffa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1237 times:

DAT may have a future as a stand-alone airline provided the funding can be arranged in accordance with EU regulations (I wonder how many times Verhofstadt, Daems, Lippens, Mueller, etc have cursed the EU since SN went bankrupt  Smile ). Yields I don't know about but bookings are up are the word is getting out.

But what worries me is these megalomaniac ideas about relaunching African and North American flights. Didn't we learn anything from the disaster of SN bankruptcy?


User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1235 times:

Yesterday 4th december was the last day of DAT's promotion to more than 30 European destinations at
- € 150 in Economy Class
- € 400 in Business Class
(that was taxes included)

I haven't heard anything about a new promotion or new special prices. So that probably means more expensive tickets from now on.

Regards, SN-A330




I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineAfay1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1293 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

My Sabena flights to/from JFK and BOS to BRU were always full in economy, regardless of time of year, and on A333 not A332. The business section, however, was not full, and that perhaps might make a difference. Anybody else think so?

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

It seems that the information about DAT now operating with 40% loadfactors is not actually correct. According to a post on PPRuNe, on the VEX codeshare routes, the DAT share of the traffic is under five passengers per flight!

Slz396 - you might be knowledgeable about political economics, but your knowledge of airline economics is pretty poor! What you're saying in effect is that if you have 50 passengers going to four different destinations, it's better to operate four flights with 50 pax (and lose lots of money, btw) than operate one flight with 200 pax to a partner's hub and let them distribute them out with their smaller aircraft.

Don't forget I've actually run a regional airline in that part of the world - and have provided feed for SN, so I know what the traffic profile is like!


User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

Hello there Ceilidh,

Maybe it is my English, but:
AF had higher frequencies, but with fewer destinations then Sabena. It depends what you consider more important: frequency or diversity.
Does mean something slightly different then you say....

As to those load factors, you'd be nuts to pay a high price for a dat ticket (now that the promotion is over) if you can get a low fare VEX ticket on the same flight!
I am surpirsed there are dat pax at all on those flights...

Ok, now I have to run...
bye.



User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1213 times:

Slz396 - it was an extrapolation from your statement as quoted by you above; coupled with your earlier one where you said: There's nothing wrong with Air Kenia, just that you can not say, I have a daily feeder flight to the hub of a partner airline which serves a particular area very nicely, so I serve that area nicely myself.

Incidentally, the reference to the DAT loads referred to flights taken whilst the promotion was on - and does your comment mean that we can expect DAT's loads to collapse again now that the high prices have returned?

The PPRuNe post from wwIIace (who I believe is Belgian, but working in the UK) reads:

i bougt a virgin express ticket to Brussels last week to see a friend and on the way there it was about 120 pax. on the way back was on a DAT aircraft that had 34 pax, spoke to the checkin girl and 31 of them were virgin pax on their allocation, the rest DAT. that was average load for DAT 3-5 pax. surely they cannot sustai this for long. virgin express seem to be keeping them afloat. we have noticed less 3rd party pax on our aircraft as well from one world. some airlines are benefitting whiles others not.


User currently offlineA330DAT From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1215 times:

Mr Ceilidh. All you do is criticize Sabena or DAT with never anything useful to say. So you're still jealous. If you're (supposedly) such a manager or whatever, then shouldn't you be WORKING in stead of hanging around on airliners net every day? If I was your boss, I would of sacked you long ago. And YOU want to tell others what to do? Huh...

User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

DAT's third promo-campaign :

For the third time in a row, dat offers you attractive prices to 28 European destinations!
You can book a ROUND-TRIP flight (taxes included) for:
 
  200,- € in Economy Class up to and December 12th, 2001 inclusive
  500,- € in Business Class up to and December 31th, 2001 inclusive
+ TRIPLE QUALIFLYER MILES !
connecting Brussels with:
Berlin, Bilbao, Birmingham, Bologna, Bordeaux, Bristol, Florence, Geneva, Gothenburg, Hamburg, Hanover, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Lyons, Madrid, Manchester, Marseille, Milan, Munich, Newcastle, Nice, Oslo, Prague, Stockholm, Strasburg, Toulouse, Turin, Venice, Vienna.

On top of that you can earn triple Qualiflyer miles as Qualiflyer member in Business Class on all 33 European destinations of dat (Barcelona, Rome, Helsinki, London Heathrow, Warsaw and the destinations mentioned above).

Regards, SN-A330



I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

SN-A330 - so would I be correct then in assuming that the promotional fares do not apply on BCE, FCO, HEL, LHR and WAW? If not, why not?

I'm not so sure that Qualiflyer miles are so great now with OS pulling out and the other main members - SN and SR going belly up!

A330DAT - I run my own company, and can do what I like when I like. How come you are posting instead of working?  Insane Big grin


User currently offlineSab12 From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

Ceilidh,

I do not understand your problem with DAT, for one they probably have the cheapest pilots in Europe, they operate their RJ fleet better then any airline in the world, the unions are almost dead, if I remember correctly these are all factors you mentioned that were needed for a good airline, they are all there!!!!!
I can tell you this, all DAT employees will make this a succes and as soon as the investers go ahaed which is foreseen the 19th december I am sure that pax loads will go up fast
Btw I have been flying several flights and they were full!!, and it was not a codeshare flight!!
Stop being negative, you will see DAT will be a succes, maybe that's your biggest nightmare that it will become a strong European airline


25 Post contains images Ceilidh : Sab12 - if you think I'm anti-DAT, you're wrong. However, I am against them moving out of what they did well - flying regional operations. The moment
26 Sab12 : Ceilidh, The amount of long haul will be reduced and US destinations will only come in the summer, DAT will be for 90% a european airline and doing wh
27 SN-A330 : Ceilidh, I am also assuming that the promotional fares do not apply on BCE, FCO, HEL, LHR and WAW ! Maybe somebody else knows why ? Concerning the Qua
28 Ceilidh : Sab12 - they are intending to start operating to three African destinations by the end of the year - two of which I know very well (EBB and KGL) as we
29 Lj : Can sopemone explain to me why DAT calls these new fares a promotional campaign? EUR 200 for a roundtrip fare is almost the usual fare on similar rout
30 A330DAT : Well said Sab12 and SN-A330. Everyone's afraid that the new DAT may actually make it. Why else would they even fuss about it? If no one would care, yo
31 Ceilidh : A330DAT - sorry, but the fact is that if SN had provided a better service to Africa than AB, AF, KL, SR etc then it could have commanded a premium. In
32 Post contains images Tca256 : Ceilidh, What kind of pax did you feed SN ? priests, nuns and wannabe ministers wearing crocodile hats ? You may have "enjoyed" problems of bookings w
33 Ceilidh : Tca256 - the pax we carried ranged from the Belgian Ambassador to ordinary Burundians.We carried many expats - mainly employees of NGOs in Burundi, bu
34 Post contains images Tca256 : Ceilidh, did you feel offended by my comments ? ooh c'mon, not you... !! To date, I'm half son of the continent so don't try to find stereotypes from
35 Tca256 : sorry, tried to write "I've probably NOT flown..."
36 LJ : According to Bloomberg a Belgian newspaper (Les Echos) reports that there may be a second bidder for DAT. I wonder who that may be...... Regards Laure
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Future Of Boeing? posted Sat Dec 29 2001 01:24:29 by DeltaBoy777
Business Jets - The Future Of Flight Takes Off posted Mon Dec 3 2001 06:15:28 by 777XI
The Future Of The New Pearson Int'l Terminal? posted Fri Oct 26 2001 22:19:45 by Johnnie
The Future Of Turboprops: Dark? posted Thu Oct 25 2001 12:38:12 by Airbus Lover
The Future Of Rear Engine Mounted Jets posted Wed Oct 24 2001 00:09:08 by Klm744
The Future Of Spotting posted Mon Oct 22 2001 16:48:45 by AerLingus
The Future Of DEN posted Fri Oct 19 2001 00:33:47 by BA
The Future Of Crossair's BSL Hub posted Thu Oct 11 2001 18:25:57 by Flying_higher
The Future Of RDU posted Mon Oct 8 2001 21:59:36 by CannibalZ3
The Future Of The Industry posted Wed Oct 3 2001 15:51:49 by Elchanan