Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Posted (12 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1019 times:
Next Thursday is D-day for DAT. If they don't have the necessary cash they'll stop operations.
Allthough I wouldn't be glad to see DAT go (I still think that DAT could survive as a pure intra-European airline) I think that we have to come to the conclusion that the chances of Mr. Lippens and DAvignon are going down day by day. They probably need a miracle to succeed.
First, last Friday a very large Belgian supermarket chain Delhaize was the first Belgian company to publically say that they won't invest into the airline (because it's not their core business). This move was followed by Interbrew (the third largest brewewry in the world) today when they confirmed that they won't invest (allthough they do say they may use the airline more than other airlines) as they feared opposition from shareholders and employees.
Next came the Financial Times which today had the following headline "Belgian companies 'bullied' on Sabena " . According to the article "Other companies complain of "being bullied" and say it would be hard to justify investing in the successor to a bankrupt airline at a time of cost-cutting elsewhere."
Ceilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (12 years 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 889 times:
Isn't this just what I've been saying for weeks? I agree with you, Laurens that DAT would probably be a reasonably efficient regional feeder airline. As I understand it, the primary reason why their bookings have been so low (apart from the abysmal service) is that very few people actually expect them to stay in business. This means that their lifeblood - cashflow - is severely depleted.
The companies that have said that they would invest are all companies with close connections to the Belgian government and/or the royal family; and there are persistent stories of senior businessmen being bullied into making investments (otherwise lucrative government contracts will either be withdrawn or not awarded in the first place) and illegal quasi-subsidies being offered by the government in the form of government guarantees or tax-offsets equal to the investments made.
The reality is that if the business plan was a good one, people would invest from all over Europe - if not the world. The fact of the matter is that few Belgians see it as a viable operation.
Like I said about Sabena months ago, let the sick old dog die with some honour.
Cpt. Caveman From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 840 times:
"DNG" Monday 10th of December
(Belgian news paper)
There is Flemish money for DAT-plus after new garanties:
The Financial Inspection, that watches the investments of the Flemish government, advised on the 13th of November in a negative way of a possible investment for DAT-plus.
But, there is a second advice, dating from the 7th of December.
The Flemish government was yesterday, again interested to finance 1 billion Belgian Francs for DAT.
We had garanties from the federal government, from minister-president Dewael, who had already asked Saturday, a 2 weeks delay before to decide.
DAT, announced Sunday the good news, that the flights are already for 40% full.
This was quickly gone "the good news", after the news that beer-giant Interbrew and Belgocontrol, that the air-movements above Belgian coordinates, not longer where interested.
The Premier had already personely announced the media, that the world's second brewery joined DAT.
This wasn't correct, what we already know.
Belgocontrol realised that it is a governments company, and for that reason coundn't join the contruction.
In mean-time two other candidates investers announced there interests.
Victor Hasson from the bankrupt company CityBird and businessman George Gutelman are joining DAT.
There are "10+" others who wants to follow this 2 men, this explained by Guy Verhofstadt the Prime-Minister.
Who those "10+" people are, wouldn't he not yet explaining.
Ceilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 807 times:
What complete codswallop you're talking Pat! - Ryanair is a scheduled, not a charter carrier!
Belgium - along with most other EU countries - is too small to viably justify a flag carrier.
Capt Caveman - the problem is that the provision of guarantees by the Belgian government (as you've described will be provided to the Flemish regional government in exchange for BFr1bn) constitutes a government subsidy, which is illegal under EU law. I understand that the other 'investors' are only agreeing to 'invest' on the basis of similar illegal guarantees or tax offsets from the government.
Without those, they are not interested.
Loadfactors don't matter either - the key is yield. And from what I understand, DAT's losing money at a very rapid rate.
OO-AOG From Switzerland, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 1426 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 779 times:
Belgium - along with most other EU countries - is too small to viably justify a flag carrier.
I don't really agree, there's a huge market out of Brussels and therefore a flag carrier can be justified, but a smaller one than Sabena. In addition, Brussels central position within Europe and BRU airport’s accomodations are suitable for an ’hub and spoke’ airline. The problem in Belgium is not the size of the country but more the social costs and labor power that an airline will need to face. Unless someone find a clever business plan very soon, we will soon see foreign airlines take the market.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 764 times:
Capt Caveman: the second investigation by the Financial Inspection also revealed that the project is too risky to invest. Thus the flemish government decided that the possibility of a failure is too big. This is a very important insight in my view as this will also disqualify any investment by BIAC into DAT (the EU will block any investment with no clear return). Moreover, all investors have already said that they want to be sure they can write off any losses from the tax bill. Not an sign that the investors believe in the project.
Hb-iqj From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 771 times:
I received the following E-Mail from DAT.
I wonder that they are so large in giving so much points away. this doesnt show a very good future.
Third Week of Promotions !
For the third time in a row, dat offers you attractive prices to 28 European destinations!
You can book a ROUND-TRIP flight (taxes included) for:
Economy class up to and December 12th 2001 inclusive at only:
200 Euro (1)
Business class up to and December 31st 2001 inclusive at only:
500 Euro (2) + TRIPLE QUALIFLYER MILES !
Connecting Brussels with:
On top of that you can earn triple Qualiflyer miles as Qualiflyer member in Business Class on all 33 European destinations of dat (Barcelona, Rome, London Heathrow, Warsaw and the destinations mentioned above).
Contact your travel agency or call dat now on 00 32/2/723 23 23 for your reservations or click here for more details: http://www.dat.be/en/index_en.htm
Book online at : http://www.dat.be/en/book_en.htm
P.S. : 2 round-trip Business class tickets = 1 free Qualiflyer ticket.
Indeed, for every Business class ticket you purchase (for personal use), you receive 12.000 miles. You can have a Qualifier ticket starting from 20.000 miles in Economy class and 25.000 miles in Business class (Europe).
(1) Conditions for Economy Class tickets at 200 Euro: 1 night stay from Saturday till Sunday or 2 night stay during the week. Tickets are non-refundable, non-transferable and cannot be altered. Immediate payment is required. Maximum of 1 month at location. TRAVEL IS ALLOWED TILL MARCH 28th 2002.
Several restrictions are applicable – contact your travel agents or dat.
(2) Conditions for Business Class Tickets at 500 Euro: Tickets are non-refundable, non-transferable and require immediate payment. Changing the return flight is allowed. Maximum of 1 month at location. TRAVEL IS ALLOWED TILL MARCH 28th 2002. Several restrictions are applicable – contact your travel agents or dat.
If you no longer want to receive e-mails from dat, reply to this message using "unsubscribe" as subject
Also, I see all of you talking about DAT as a European regional airline.
I think that we need an airline that should arrive anywhere not just in Europe. Today to get from Brussels to anywhere you need to take a connection flight which is quiet annoying.
D-AQUI From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 199 posts, RR: 9 Reply 17, posted (12 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 755 times:
Since I have joined this forum and since the never-ending Sabena-DAT story began, I have repeated it over and over again: what we need out of Brussels is a reliable air-service to other European destinations.
Within the social and economical context that does exist in Belgium this does not seem to be the case: strikes, doubtful service etc. will cast a devastating spell on any successor airline connected with Sabena in the passengers' mind.
In fact, it is a spiral dive with apparently no chance for recovery, to speak in aeronautical terms.
The industrial action announced by former Sabena staff during the European Council next Friday will further weaken Zaventem's and DAT's position in the European air-traffic market. In the long run, every carrier will consider twice to serve Brussles as there will always be a risk to be hit by some kind of 'unforseen events' that are outbalancing the advantages of fast air-travel. Would-be passengers will rather be looking for alternatives that are already looming on the horizon in the form of high-speed train services out of Bruxelles-Midi train station.
To sum it up: if the DAT solution does not work, give it up, beacause the market forces would sooner or later dash away any airline that has been created by bullying investors into an engagement that seems to be a no-win situation.
Cpt. Caveman From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 734 times:
DNG, Thuesday 11th of December
(Belgian news paper)
DAT doesn't get the 1 billion Belgian francs from the Flemish government!
The Flemish government is not going to invest in the new airline DAT.
The promised 1 billion Belgian francs is going to BIAC (the airport exploitant).
They are going to investigate if this operation has nothing to do with hidden government support and that BIAC threathed all other airlines the same.
Davignon, the man behind the new DAT, couldn't laugh withit yesterday.
Everybody has to take his responsibility, he said at Dewael's adres.
DragonRapide From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 732 times:
1/ Indeed the Flemish Government isn't going to invest in dat but in BIAC.
2/ BIAC can do with that money whatever they want.
3/ Davignon is in the Board of Directors of BIAC.
Conclusion: BIAC will invest the Flemish money in dat.
D-AQUI, just for the record. I flew twice with dat last week. Once in Y and once in C. No difference with the former Sabena service.
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (12 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 732 times:
Dragonrapide, unfortunately the EU Commission isn't stupid and already said it will investigate this route very carefully. Moreover, what do you think all the other airlines at BRU will do once BIAC invests into DAT?
I think that the lawyers are going to make overtime.
BTW what will ahppen if the Flemish politicians block the EUR 25mio to BIAC aswell? As far as I know the Flemish government merely stated their intention to invest EUR 25mio in BIAC.
DragonRapide From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (12 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 719 times:
Yes, you're right Laurens.
However I wanted to make the point since discussions have gone much further than what this topic is about.
Two things though:
1/ Do not underestimate the 'haute finance'
2/ Do never underestimate politics, even if our politicians are no the smartest around.
Manni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23 Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 690 times:
FFlyer, altough it would be nice to see if it was true. You are going to fast with saying that other airlines are adding longhaul services to BRU. Only DL so far has REstarted the JFK service, first flight to arrive 16/12. Wich is not an addition at all, they intended to REstart it in march anyway. So what are the airlines that ADDing more LONGhaul flights to BRU? You reply is based on nothing and o so typical these days in any tread about either DAT or Sabena. Now reply to something you know about!
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 672 times:
DragonRapide, I never underestimate the politicians. Moreover as politics is almost the only thing that is behind DAT+. Maybe that's why some sort of DAT will remain (I even willing to believe that there may be a second bidder waiting tot ake over DAT). However, just as the Belgian politicians want to keep DAT alive there are other politicians who have the opposite goal.
Fortunately we know by tommorrow what will happen to DAT.
BTW I don't see any evidence of "haute finance" in the entire DAT case. It's very plain vanilla if you ask me.
25 Ceilidh: Laurens - definitely no sign of 'haute finance' - only the usual dirty political manoeverings, fraud and scandalous behaviour that one has come to exp
26 LJ: Ceillidh, moreover as USAirways left BRU after the demise of Sabena. Allthough CO increased capacity on the EWR-BRU route by replacing the B757 with t
27 Cpt. Caveman: Hello, -LJ- Yes, we still have the Delta 125 "ATL-BRU-ATL" flight! And the Delta 141 "JFK-BRU-JFK" flight is comming back as from the 16/12/01! Regard
28 Manni: LJ, I know that DL flies to BRU from ATL. What I mean by only reinstating JFK? FFlyer replys that many airlines have introduced new longhaul destinati
29 Manni: BTW LJ, Lufthansa operates as many as 28 daily flights out of BRU to various German cities.
30 LJ: Yep Manni, you're right I should have said off course 8 daily FRA-BRU flights. BTW Manni, doesn't the fact that no airline jumped in BRU just mean tha
31 Manni: It is difficult to tell, these days, wether BRU might attract some new airlines. It is not the peakseason for bussines and tourist travel, there is th
32 AirDD: DAT should not make the same mistakes as SN BRU is only a regional airport & a small home market No long haul Asian & American airlines are really in
33 Cpt. Caveman: Hey, Excuse me, AirDD I still think that BRU/EBBR is an International Airport! In fact, we don't have regional airports in Belgian, there is no carrie
34 Manni: AirDD, When I read your posts, I wonder if you know what you are talking about. You clearly show the lack of knowledge to participate in any topics re
35 Donder10: The thing I have senses throughout this whole Sabena/DAT saga is an overwhelming sense of patrioism to the point of ecomomic lunacy.
36 Manni: quotes from AirDD, "No long haul Asian & American airlines are really interested in BRU." Guess Singapore, Delta, American, United, Continental are al
37 AirDD: Manni, What I meant to say that no new carriers are interested setting up long haul service to BRU. BRU had 23 million pax ... 60% from SN and mostly
38 Tripple7: The problem with BRU now is that it is surrounded by the hubs of the 4 largest airlines and airports in Europe. LH in particular has increased capacit