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DAT: Needs A Miracle  
User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

Next Thursday is D-day for DAT. If they don't have the necessary cash they'll stop operations.

Allthough I wouldn't be glad to see DAT go (I still think that DAT could survive as a pure intra-European airline) I think that we have to come to the conclusion that the chances of Mr. Lippens and DAvignon are going down day by day. They probably need a miracle to succeed.

First, last Friday a very large Belgian supermarket chain Delhaize was the first Belgian company to publically say that they won't invest into the airline (because it's not their core business). This move was followed by Interbrew (the third largest brewewry in the world) today when they confirmed that they won't invest (allthough they do say they may use the airline more than other airlines) as they feared opposition from shareholders and employees.

Next came the Financial Times which today had the following headline "Belgian companies 'bullied' on Sabena " . According to the article "Other companies complain of "being bullied" and say it would be hard to justify investing in the successor to a bankrupt airline at a time of cost-cutting elsewhere."

http://globalarchive.ft.com/globalarchive/article.html?id=011210000872&query=sabena

Finally this evening the Flemish government pulled their EUR 25mio out as the EU Commision did have some objections to the DAT-BIAC construction.

Regards
Laurens

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Miracle? Just scrap DAT. Let Ryanair be Belgium's flag carrier.

User currently offlineOO-AOG From Switzerland, joined Dec 2000, 1426 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

No way an irish airline can be Belgium's flag carrier!
I hope DAT will survive.



Falcon....like a limo but with wings
User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1037 times:

I hope they'll survive too

User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1030 times:

Isn't this just what I've been saying for weeks?  Insane I agree with you, Laurens that DAT would probably be a reasonably efficient regional feeder airline. As I understand it, the primary reason why their bookings have been so low (apart from the abysmal service) is that very few people actually expect them to stay in business. This means that their lifeblood - cashflow - is severely depleted.

The companies that have said that they would invest are all companies with close connections to the Belgian government and/or the royal family; and there are persistent stories of senior businessmen being bullied into making investments (otherwise lucrative government contracts will either be withdrawn or not awarded in the first place) and illegal quasi-subsidies being offered by the government in the form of government guarantees or tax-offsets equal to the investments made.

The reality is that if the business plan was a good one, people would invest from all over Europe - if not the world. The fact of the matter is that few Belgians see it as a viable operation.

Like I said about Sabena months ago, let the sick old dog die with some honour.


User currently offlineAirDD From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1026 times:

I think DAT can survive if they concentrate on intra-European regional flights.

Long haul flights should only start if DAT has a big partner.

BUT government involvement should be limited to a minimum or we end up with a SN again...



User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1020 times:

Belgium doesn't need a flag carrier - let VG Airlines do that if Freddy's crazy enough to want to pee away €12.5m!

User currently offlineAirDD From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1000 times:

Seems like the Brussels Airport Company is going to invest in DAT. ... very bizarre..


User currently offlineCpt. Caveman From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Hello,

"DNG" Monday 10th of December
(Belgian news paper)

There is Flemish money for DAT-plus after new garanties:

The Financial Inspection, that watches the investments of the Flemish government, advised on the 13th of November in a negative way of a possible investment for DAT-plus.
But, there is a second advice, dating from the 7th of December.
The Flemish government was yesterday, again interested to finance 1 billion Belgian Francs for DAT.
We had garanties from the federal government, from minister-president Dewael, who had already asked Saturday, a 2 weeks delay before to decide.

DAT, announced Sunday the good news, that the flights are already for 40% full.
This was quickly gone "the good news", after the news that beer-giant Interbrew and Belgocontrol, that the air-movements above Belgian coordinates, not longer where interested.
The Premier had already personely announced the media, that the world's second brewery joined DAT.
This wasn't correct, what we already know.
Belgocontrol realised that it is a governments company, and for that reason coundn't join the contruction.
In mean-time two other candidates investers announced there interests.
Victor Hasson from the bankrupt company CityBird and businessman George Gutelman are joining DAT.
There are "10+" others who wants to follow this 2 men, this explained by Guy Verhofstadt the Prime-Minister.
Who those "10+" people are, wouldn't he not yet explaining.

Let's hope the BEST for DAT!!!

Regards  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cpt. Caveman



User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 969 times:

'No way an irish airline can be Belgium's flag carrier!
I hope DAT will survive.'
What's the big deal if Ryanair became Belgiums 'flag carrier'?



User currently offlinePat From Belgium, joined Aug 2000, 110 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 967 times:


They just cannot be as their 're Irish...is that so difficult to understand ???

Moreover, a flag carrier has to be recognized as a fully "normal" carrier and not as a charter carrier which is the status of Ryanair in Belgium.

See the pic' now ?


Pat


User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 948 times:

What complete codswallop you're talking Pat!  Insane - Ryanair is a scheduled, not a charter carrier!

Belgium - along with most other EU countries - is too small to viably justify a flag carrier.

Capt Caveman - the problem is that the provision of guarantees by the Belgian government (as you've described will be provided to the Flemish regional government in exchange for BFr1bn) constitutes a government subsidy, which is illegal under EU law. I understand that the other 'investors' are only agreeing to 'invest' on the basis of similar illegal guarantees or tax offsets from the government.

Without those, they are not interested.

Loadfactors don't matter either - the key is yield. And from what I understand, DAT's losing money at a very rapid rate.


User currently offlineOO-AOG From Switzerland, joined Dec 2000, 1426 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 920 times:

Belgium - along with most other EU countries - is too small to viably justify a flag carrier.

I don't really agree, there's a huge market out of Brussels and therefore a flag carrier can be justified, but a smaller one than Sabena. In addition, Brussels central position within Europe and BRU airport’s accomodations are suitable for an ’hub and spoke’ airline. The problem in Belgium is not the size of the country but more the social costs and labor power that an airline will need to face. Unless someone find a clever business plan very soon, we will soon see foreign airlines take the market.



Falcon....like a limo but with wings
User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 905 times:

Capt Caveman: the second investigation by the Financial Inspection also revealed that the project is too risky to invest. Thus the flemish government decided that the possibility of a failure is too big. This is a very important insight in my view as this will also disqualify any investment by BIAC into DAT (the EU will block any investment with no clear return). Moreover, all investors have already said that they want to be sure they can write off any losses from the tax bill. Not an sign that the investors believe in the project.

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineSN-A330 From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 1129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 905 times:

It seems the biggest shareholder of Interbrew would do the investment in DAT now instead of Interbrew itself.

No more coffee, Champagne or orange juice on your next DAT-flight. We will probably be drinking Stella Artois next time we fly DAT.

Regards, SN-A330



I would rather be flying...
User currently offlineHb-iqj From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 912 times:

I received the following E-Mail from DAT.
I wonder that they are so large in giving so much points away. this doesnt show a very good future.

------------------------------------------------------
Third Week of Promotions !

For the third time in a row, dat offers you attractive prices to 28 European destinations!

You can book a ROUND-TRIP flight (taxes included) for:
Economy class up to and December 12th 2001 inclusive at only:
200 Euro (1)
Business class up to and December 31st 2001 inclusive at only:
500 Euro (2) + TRIPLE QUALIFLYER MILES !
Connecting Brussels with:

Berlin, Bilbao, Birmingham, Bologna, Bordeaux, Bristol, Florence, Geneva, Gothenburg, Hamburg, Hanover, Copenhagen, Lyon, Madrid, Manchester, Marseille, Milan, Munich, Newcastle, Nice, Oslo, Praague, Stockholm, Strasburg, Toulouse, Turin, Venice, Vienna, Helsinki.

On top of that you can earn triple Qualiflyer miles as Qualiflyer member in Business Class on all 33 European destinations of dat (Barcelona, Rome, London Heathrow, Warsaw and the destinations mentioned above).

Contact your travel agency or call dat now on 00 32/2/723 23 23 for your reservations or click here for more details: http://www.dat.be/en/index_en.htm

Book online at : http://www.dat.be/en/book_en.htm


P.S. : 2 round-trip Business class tickets = 1 free Qualiflyer ticket.
Indeed, for every Business class ticket you purchase (for personal use), you receive 12.000 miles. You can have a Qualifier ticket starting from 20.000 miles in Economy class and 25.000 miles in Business class (Europe).


(1) Conditions for Economy Class tickets at 200 Euro: 1 night stay from Saturday till Sunday or 2 night stay during the week. Tickets are non-refundable, non-transferable and cannot be altered. Immediate payment is required. Maximum of 1 month at location. TRAVEL IS ALLOWED TILL MARCH 28th 2002.
Several restrictions are applicable – contact your travel agents or dat.

(2) Conditions for Business Class Tickets at 500 Euro: Tickets are non-refundable, non-transferable and require immediate payment. Changing the return flight is allowed. Maximum of 1 month at location. TRAVEL IS ALLOWED TILL MARCH 28th 2002. Several restrictions are applicable – contact your travel agents or dat.

If you no longer want to receive e-mails from dat, reply to this message using "unsubscribe" as subject
------------------------------------------------------

Also, I see all of you talking about DAT as a European regional airline.
I think that we need an airline that should arrive anywhere not just in Europe. Today to get from Brussels to anywhere you need to take a connection flight which is quiet annoying.

Think about that fellows.


hb-iqj



User currently offlineKenny From Belgium, joined Aug 2001, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 901 times:

Posted by Planeguy
Miracle? Just scrap DAT. Let Ryanair be Belgium's flag carrier.

Ryanair??? never of my live!!!
They're Irish!!!

Posted by SN-A330
It seems the biggest shareholder of Interbrew would do the investment in DAT now instead of Interbrew itself.

No more coffee, Champagne or orange juice on your next DAT-flight. We will probably be drinking Stella Artois next time we fly DAT.

Regards, SN-A330



Lolz, Stella Artois on a plane, I'm going to like it more and more Big grin

I hope DAT can survive




User currently offlineD-AQUI From Germany, joined Sep 2001, 203 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 896 times:

Since I have joined this forum and since the never-ending Sabena-DAT story began, I have repeated it over and over again: what we need out of Brussels is a reliable air-service to other European destinations.

Within the social and economical context that does exist in Belgium this does not seem to be the case: strikes, doubtful service etc. will cast a devastating spell on any successor airline connected with Sabena in the passengers' mind.

Furthermore the present lack in professionalism that I have encountered on at least my last flight with DAT ( see: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/670303/) has cooled down my sympathy for those who want to stay in their job and who are suffering from this major failure in Belgian economy.

In fact, it is a spiral dive with apparently no chance for recovery, to speak in aeronautical terms.

The industrial action announced by former Sabena staff during the European Council next Friday will further weaken Zaventem's and DAT's position in the European air-traffic market. In the long run, every carrier will consider twice to serve Brussles as there will always be a risk to be hit by some kind of 'unforseen events' that are outbalancing the advantages of fast air-travel. Would-be passengers will rather be looking for alternatives that are already looming on the horizon in the form of high-speed train services out of Bruxelles-Midi train station.

To sum it up: if the DAT solution does not work, give it up, beacause the market forces would sooner or later dash away any airline that has been created by bullying investors into an engagement that seems to be a no-win situation.

xxx


User currently offlineCpt. Caveman From Belgium, joined Nov 2001, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 875 times:

Hello,

DNG, Thuesday 11th of December
(Belgian news paper)

DAT doesn't get the 1 billion Belgian francs from the Flemish government!

The Flemish government is not going to invest in the new airline DAT.
The promised 1 billion Belgian francs is going to BIAC (the airport exploitant).
They are going to investigate if this operation has nothing to do with hidden government support and that BIAC threathed all other airlines the same.
Davignon, the man behind the new DAT, couldn't laugh withit yesterday.
Everybody has to take his responsibility, he said at Dewael's adres.

DAT: Needs indeed A Miracle

Regards  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cpt. Caveman


User currently offlineDragonRapide From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 873 times:

1/ Indeed the Flemish Government isn't going to invest in dat but in BIAC.
2/ BIAC can do with that money whatever they want.
3/ Davignon is in the Board of Directors of BIAC.
Conclusion: BIAC will invest the Flemish money in dat.

D-AQUI, just for the record. I flew twice with dat last week. Once in Y and once in C. No difference with the former Sabena service.


User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 875 times:

Why do you think DL and other airlines are adding long-haul service to Brussels? Because they KNOW that there won't be a Belgian long-haul air service in the future.

User currently offlineLj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 873 times:

Dragonrapide, unfortunately the EU Commission isn't stupid and already said it will investigate this route very carefully. Moreover, what do you think all the other airlines at BRU will do once BIAC invests into DAT?

I think that the lawyers are going to make overtime.

BTW what will ahppen if the Flemish politicians block the EUR 25mio to BIAC aswell? As far as I know the Flemish government merely stated their intention to invest EUR 25mio in BIAC.

Regards
Laurens


User currently offlineDragonRapide From Belgium, joined Sep 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 860 times:

Yes, you're right Laurens.
However I wanted to make the point since discussions have gone much further than what this topic is about.
Two things though:
1/ Do not underestimate the 'haute finance'
2/ Do never underestimate politics, even if our politicians are no the smartest around.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 831 times:

FFlyer, altough it would be nice to see if it was true. You are going to fast with saying that other airlines are adding longhaul services to BRU. Only DL so far has REstarted the JFK service, first flight to arrive 16/12. Wich is not an addition at all, they intended to REstart it in march anyway. So what are the airlines that ADDing more LONGhaul flights to BRU? You reply is based on nothing and o so typical these days in any tread about either DAT or Sabena. Now reply to something you know about!


SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 813 times:

DragonRapide, I never underestimate the politicians. Moreover as politics is almost the only thing that is behind DAT+. Maybe that's why some sort of DAT will remain (I even willing to believe that there may be a second bidder waiting tot ake over DAT). However, just as the Belgian politicians want to keep DAT alive there are other politicians who have the opposite goal.

Fortunately we know by tommorrow what will happen to DAT.

BTW I don't see any evidence of "haute finance" in the entire DAT case. It's very plain vanilla if you ask me.

Regards
Laurens


25 Post contains images Ceilidh : Laurens - definitely no sign of 'haute finance' - only the usual dirty political manoeverings, fraud and scandalous behaviour that one has come to exp
26 LJ : Ceillidh, moreover as USAirways left BRU after the demise of Sabena. Allthough CO increased capacity on the EWR-BRU route by replacing the B757 with t
27 Post contains images Cpt. Caveman : Hello, -LJ- Yes, we still have the Delta 125 "ATL-BRU-ATL" flight! And the Delta 141 "JFK-BRU-JFK" flight is comming back as from the 16/12/01! Regard
28 Manni : LJ, I know that DL flies to BRU from ATL. What I mean by only reinstating JFK? FFlyer replys that many airlines have introduced new longhaul destinati
29 Manni : BTW LJ, Lufthansa operates as many as 28 daily flights out of BRU to various German cities.
30 LJ : Yep Manni, you're right I should have said off course 8 daily FRA-BRU flights. BTW Manni, doesn't the fact that no airline jumped in BRU just mean tha
31 Manni : It is difficult to tell, these days, wether BRU might attract some new airlines. It is not the peakseason for bussines and tourist travel, there is th
32 AirDD : DAT should not make the same mistakes as SN BRU is only a regional airport & a small home market No long haul Asian & American airlines are really in
33 Post contains images Cpt. Caveman : Hey, Excuse me, AirDD I still think that BRU/EBBR is an International Airport! In fact, we don't have regional airports in Belgian, there is no carrie
34 Manni : AirDD, When I read your posts, I wonder if you know what you are talking about. You clearly show the lack of knowledge to participate in any topics re
35 Donder10 : The thing I have senses throughout this whole Sabena/DAT saga is an overwhelming sense of patrioism to the point of ecomomic lunacy.
36 Manni : quotes from AirDD, "No long haul Asian & American airlines are really interested in BRU." Guess Singapore, Delta, American, United, Continental are al
37 AirDD : Manni, What I meant to say that no new carriers are interested setting up long haul service to BRU. BRU had 23 million pax ... 60% from SN and mostly
38 Post contains images Tripple7 : The problem with BRU now is that it is surrounded by the hubs of the 4 largest airlines and airports in Europe. LH in particular has increased capacit
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