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Midwest Express 717  
User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1029 posts, RR: 3
Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1671 times:

So, for weeks (months it seems) there have been post after post talking about the Midwest Express 717 order. Everything from "when will the oder be placed" to "Midwest Express ordered XX 717s". Well, as far as I can find, there is absolutely nothing to confirm that Midwest Express ordered ANY 717s. They talked about it and pretty much decided on the 717 as their new type and DC-9 replacement but this was last spring and thus far Boeing doesnt show the order, there have been no press releases yet STILL I read posts about the 717s for Midwest Express.

Dones anybody know what the status is of this possible order? With the future of the 717 uncertain at best and the economic situation of the airline industry in the toilet, is Midwest thinking at all about fleet replacement or are they just trying to stay alive?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJetBlue320 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

I hear they have confirmed 20 717 orders with 20 options. or is it 30

User currently offlineDash 80 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

read this

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2001/photorelease/q2/photo_release_010410a.html




...where the rubber hits the runway...
User currently offlineLGB Photos From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

I heard from people at Boeing that Midwest Express has told Boeing that they are looking else where for new airplanes if Boeing cannot deliver brand new 717's to them. Boeing is also in the hot seat in the public's view here for wanting to shut the 717 down and help finance Tupolov to build the TU-334.

User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1029 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

Why would Boeing NOT want to deliver new 717s? Are the perhaps soon to be ex-American/TWA craft what they would like to offer instead since they know they will have those back at some point before Midwest Express would have taken delivery of new aircraft?

Also, thanks for the press release, but thats the original OLD news. There never has been a firm order for 717s added to the log books at Boeing from Midwest Express. Why on earth would Boeing NOT take an order for up to 50 airplanes? They clearly want the 717 written off to the history books ASAP. As for them getting involved w/Tupelov and the Tu-334, WOW, there is a stunningly popular aircraft to get tangled up with! How many orders for the TU334- ever?? 0? They must have other motives, what they are I cannot tell you.


User currently offlineLGB Photos From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Boeing did offer Midwest Express ex-TWA 717s when AA returns them and Midwest said no, they want brand spanking new aircraft. Instead of going out and pushing to sell the airplane, Boeing is just sitting back with the old mentality of "we are Boeing, airlines come to us" and Airbus is proving that instead airlines will turn other places to get the aircraft they need. I think the whole top brASS at Boeing needs a make over and new people should be put in. The company is being run by people who have their heads up their asses.

Stephen


User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1029 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1393 times:

Its true, Boeing DOES have their heads up their asses, thats for sure. To refuse an order of possibly 50 aircraft and instead offer used aircraft who's future is uncertain is pure madness. The probably offered them discounted options for the Sonic Cruiser instead!!! haha!

Well, I suppose as sad as it is, the fate of the 717 is pretty much sealed. If Boeing wont even sell them to those who want them, why bother continuing? The folks at Long Beach should buy back their division from Boeing, get it out of the hands of those who clearly arent in the business of building and selling airplanes.

What bastards. If anybody has information to the contrary- please share it!


User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

Stephen...
Well said! Let see how long Boeing stays in the commercial jetliner business with their egotistical attitude in the upper ranks. When Mount Rainier blows again, I hope the fallout comes directly down on their runway. In my opinion, Long Beach has the best product, made by the best aerospace workers.  Wink/being sarcastic Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1371 times:

I wonder if Boeing is so caught up in its profit calculations that they can't see enough money in this, as opposed to Airbus, who would be selling for market share no matter what. Granted they are a consortium, therefore not terribly tied to profit, just viability, and Boeing instead has a bunch of shareholders breathing down their neck, so they don't always have as much room to move. But it's still frustrating to watch them limp along like this, and possibly squander a huge opportunity. So I concur with everyone's disapproval of their handling of this situation.


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5725 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

How long will Boeing last with this attitude? Give me a break, what are you smoking?

Let' see.... this attitude has gotten them.... about 400 737NG for American Airlines alone, a whole bunch for Continental, who is getting rid of Douglas products and going Boeing... Delta with 73NGs...

Southwest, of course.

ATA went all-Boeing.

I think they're doing pretty good.

Who's got their head up who's ass?

I am not downplaying Airbus, they're fine planebuilders too. But to make such a dumb statement as "How long can Boeing last with this attitude??" had to be addressed.

R


User currently offlineUAL_777_Pilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1358 times:

I believe I heard that they have an agreement for 20 aircraft , and options for 30 . However , now they are not sure if they will replace their fleet of DC-9's and MD-80's with either newer MD-80's or the new B717. If ME doesnt purchase the aircraft..... I dont think the B717 will be around much longer , most airlines are going with the A320 or the newer B737's to service thier regional routes . A plane like the B717 really doesnt have much demand in the current market situation!

User currently offlineJettblasterp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

Midwest did confirm the order with Boeing about a day before Boeing said they may stop the production. I will try to find the press release somewhere. Regardless, Boeing is legally bound to make the 20 firm orders for Midwest Express, but not the options. Midwest Express may not take the TWA planes because the cost to retrofit the with their configuration will bring the price back up to a brand new plane. Unless, of course, Boeing is prepared to make a HUGE deal for them.

User currently offlineMilemaster From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

Let's not forget Airtran, people...


User currently offlineBestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7081 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Delta have two top class aircraft aircraft that are selling well, the 737NG, and the 777.

With the 717 having a similar capacity, range and CASM as the 737 600, and the 737-900 arriving at the capacity of the 757, I see the future of these aircraft in doubt as we go forward.

In the Medium range market, the 767 will survive, but will continue to loose share to the vastly superior A330-300.

In the long and ultra long haul market, the 777 will rule the roost, with boeing developing a stretch version to beat the A340-600.

Boeing's Sonic Cruiser is a non runner.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4160 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

My guess is that YX will turn away from the B717 towards either the A32X family or the FD 728/928. The AA 717 will find other homes, most of them will go to AirTran, some to Impulse. Just a guess...

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1263 times:

Well, YX might be more inclined to pursue the 728/928 if FairDor had not pulled the rug out from under them by cancelling the 428jet. It was merely an extension of the 328, but they simply cancelled the production after a confirmed order. Perhaps international rules, but that was legal.

About Midwest pursuing either a 737NG or A32X series aircraft...doubt it. Midwest took a survey of their high-revenue Y (fare basis) class passengers, and asked them if they would mind having a 3-2 config in lieu of a 2-2 config. The resounding response was 'no'. YX would have to run a 3-2 config in an NG or Airbus to make them profitable and maintain their level of service. That's the distinct advantage to the narrower 717 product.

Midwest is certainly not afraid of purchasing used MD-80s, as only two of them are wholly owned outright and purchased new from Douglas...their 88s. Their 82s are repurchases from JAS and a few others, and in great shape, might I add.

I think they should snatch up the used -87s, and -90s from Reno Air, as AA seems to be parking them anyway.




I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1243 times:

actually, the CASM for the 717 is lower than the B737-600... the 717 also has larger pits than the baby 73.

I have a feeling they'll ask YX to move up the delivery dates a bit versus the 2003-2006 window. If YX agrees to that, and they can get FL to exercise more options, I can see the 717 line staying open for a few more years...

BTW, why are all of you blaming Boeing for the 717? If my memory serves me correctly, the program was originally called the MD95, hence it's a McD-D design and a competitor w/ the 737NG. I think Boeing did the right thing in keeping the project going when they tookover McD-D....

-nate


User currently offlineLGB Photos From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

I know from talking to people at Air Tran and Hawaiian that both of those carriers are raving about the 717. In fact most of the bookings for each airline have people specifying to fly on the 717. All of the other carriers love the 717 as well and Hawaiian wants to order another 5 firm new 717s. Air Tran reported a 28% fuel savings and hawaian has a 25% fuel savings. Now how can this NOT be a good airplane for the market it is designed for? All the pilots who have flown the plane love it! Boeing DOES have their heads up their asses if they don't realize that this could be a money maker if only they would go out and push it to airlines!

Stephen


User currently offlineJetBlue320 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

For all you people who hate the 717, Pack up your bags and get out of this post. This is for 717 fans. Most of you people who hate the 717 have never even flown on it. So, get out of this post

User currently offlineJettblasterp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1198 times:

SAS has a bunch of MD-87 I think Midwest Express should look at too.... I bet they are too new and after refurbishing, they would cost almost as much as a 717.

User currently offlineSkymileman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1197 times:

That thing from boeing says that it was placed on April 10. I think that they probably cancelled on that. They are by no means in good enough shape for a $750 million order.

User currently offlineJettblasterp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Skymileman...I don't agree. Midwest Express is in good financial shape. They will not be cancelling the 717 order. They need the bad!

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5725 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Well, while I love DC-9s a whole lot, I really think they need to do something quickly. With an economic downturn, and outrageous labor costs.... and fuel... they need something efficient. They don't have ANYthing efficient in their fleet, as far as I am concerned. The best thing would be the MD-88, which was efficient ten years ago, but not so much now, compared to other alternatives, right?

So, let's get on with the 717 deal and order some!

Also, having flown all three generations of the DC-9 (original -10s and -30s, middle -80s, and new -95s) I can say that the 717/MD95 is so much nicer than its elder brothers. Quiet. Good interior. Effective lavs.

We already know that the 717 is my fav. and that I think all airlines should fly them, but I think it's a perfect time for MidEx to jump, rather than ponder.

Randy


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