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Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?  
User currently offlineHZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3707 times:

AC_A340 are under the ridiculous impression that Airbus invented the first FBW system. Somebody prove them wrong with facts please.

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMirage From Portugal, joined May 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Between Boeing and Airbus, I think Airbus introduce it first but I'm not sure about this so I'll wait for other replies.

But I think it was General Dynamics with the F-16's   (again not sure about it)


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3792 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3470 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

In the world of civil aviation, I think Airbus was the first to introduce it with the A320 back in 1987. The A320 was the first civil aircraft to be equiped with FBW systems, followed by the A330 and A340. Boeing intruduced it much more recently on the 777.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium



Ben Soriano
User currently offlinePandora From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3475 times:

I was approached the same question by an Ansett Australia 767 engineer. I answered "it's A320" and he said wrong!!

He said that the Boeing 767-200 is actually the first FBW airliner, well, not all controls, but only the spoilers are controlled by FBW. So i guess the honor of "the first FBW airliner" goes to Boeing!


User currently offlineJlb From Denmark, joined Nov 1999, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

I'm not shure, but I think the Concorde has fly by wire. If that's right then it might be the first civil airliner with FBW. Concorde was build by two of the later partners in Airbus. Boeing definitely wasn't first. Their first FBW was the 777. They were even beaten in this race (which was not much of a race anyway) by the Russians (IL96 and TU204)

User currently offlineDLMD-11 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Airbus did not, as you suspected, invent fly-by-wire. However, neither was it a Boeing invention (or McDonnell Douglas for that matter...)

As far as I am aware, the first civilian application of a system resembling fly-by-wire is on the BAe / Aerospatiale Concorde. However, it was not a computer controlled Fly-By-Wire system - it was called 'Analog Fly-By-Wire' and basically dynamos on the control column created power / signals and sent it to motors down a wire to motors controlling the elevons etc. - there is no hydraulic control between the yoke and the elevons etc.
This is partly because once the aircraft passes Mach 1, the effects of the control surfaces is reversed (for reasons that I have never understood...) Hydraulics would not do to the control surfaces as they couldn't take this into account.

So the answer is that it was the Concorde that first used FBY for a civilian application.



DLMD-11


User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2260 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

To answer the original question, FBW was invented by NASA in the early 60's and first used it on the Lunar Lander in 1969. The last time we discussed this, a Canadian? in the Forum disputed this and said it was first used in Canada in the late 50's. My information comes from a Discovery special on the Moon landing.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11348 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

Are you saying that beyond mach 1, elevators going down makes the nose go up, etc.? Wow! You learn something everyday. I took an acoustics class recently and I know things get all muffed up when v>c, but I wouldn't have expected that.




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User currently offlinePanman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

To answer your question DLX what I think DKMD-11 is referring to is the venturi effect. This basically states with subsonic airflow, air in a converging duct has a gain in velocity and temperature and a drop in pressure (the upper surface of a wing is viewed as the lower portion of a converging duct).

In supersonic airflow though the reverse happens i.e. the velocity and temperature drop and the pressure increases. Thus controls would be working back to front. I can go into more detail if required but just wanted to keep it more simple than some of my more recent posts.

Panman


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11348 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

So, i don't quite get it. If the pressure on top of the wing increases, how does the plane stay in the air? Since lift is generated by having lower pressure above than below the wing.



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User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

The L-1011 was built with 2 types of flight decks, an analog which is the one it was built with and a digital FBW one. The FBW seemed to expensive at the time and was later dropped due to the fact that Lockheed was already behind on the project.

User currently offlineTWA717_200 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Just my 2 cents...As far as I know, the first practical application of FBW was in a F8 Crusader. This was a prototype system and the '8 was a flying testbed.

User currently offlineSpaceman Spiff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

The first FBW system can be debated forever here. Needless to say that FBW was pretty old technology by the time both Airbus and Boeing began using it! The next big step will be who is first to use "Fly by Light" in an airliner. Fiber Optic FBW systems are a lot better than what we have today and will last much longer without the wiring problems that our current older aircraft are having.

User currently offlinePanman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Supersonic aircraft have a different shaped wing to the conventional wing. I'm not sure about Concorde but a lot of military aircraft have a wedg shaped wing because this gives best lift capabilities and minimal airflow seperation at supersonic speeds. I am not sure but i believe the leading edge of concorde can be changed to give it the best airflow characteristics for supersonic flight.

Besides that it's all a case of aircraft trim and fuel management that keeps the aircraft in the air.


User currently offlineF-WWKH From Taiwan, joined Jun 1999, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Intersting topic as I just read in another post that you are 'tired of these Airbus vs Boeing posts'......

User currently offlineHZ-AKF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3410 times:

The entire point of this post was to prove that neither Airbus or Boeing "invented" FBW per se and with regard to who employed it first I would only say who gives a rat's arse.



User currently offlineJet Setter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3404 times:

Concorde, designed by BAe/Aerospatiale was the first FBW airliner. As described above by DLMD-11, it was an anaolg FBW not digital.

So, This is definately NOT an Airbus v Boeing debate, and yes I'm fed up of people saying Boeing make junk, Airbus are great or vice versa. Can't we agree both companies are different, and both produce excellent families of airliners, which appeal to different people/airlines?



User currently offlineDas Flugzeug From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

It seems previous posts imply that supersonic (Concorde) flight necessitates FBW because the control surfaces are reversed and a hydraulic system cannot account for that. My question is, if this is true, how did supersonic jets of the 50's and 60's (F-105 starfighter, F-4, etc) get by flying with full hydraulic systems?

User currently offlineRavi From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

Is the world so hard-up for a debate that FBW has become the end-all and be-all of technological leaps?

Aft-loaded airfoil designs, personal televisions, glass cockpits and improved engine efficiencies have all had a much larger impact on the commercial aviation industry. The use of FBW is important, but not the MOST important. I've often read posts by people who think that just because the A320 has FBW that it is more technologically advanced than the B737NG. This just isn't the case. And, besides, of 20 airlines that voted for the B737NG to have FBW or not, incredibly 20 said they DIDN'T want FBW.

If anyone wants to debate technology levels then I'm quite prepared to do so.


User currently offlineAca320 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

agreed that there are alot of technical advances that have allowed us to develop the aerospace business what is today everything from high bypass engines which facilited the widebody to the growth of electronic control systems such as fbw and there are things like blended wing designs which have no seperate flight controls the wing is constructed from an elastic type material which allows the entire wing to change shape this coupled with fbw is where we are headed make no mistake there will more electronics not less. As for who was first its simple the f16 f18 f15 f14 were the development beds for fbw as we now know it the same goes for propulsion systems navigation gps inertial nav etc thats where the bucks are and the risk takers that validate this systems end of story.

User currently offlineAC_A340 From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 2251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

I was referring to the first company that put it in an entire aircraft. Of course it was civil aviation. It looks like we all learned something new.

User currently offlineDas Flugzeug From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Ravi,

First of all, chill out, the post simply asked who invented FBW, and did not state that it was the most significant devolopment in aviation. You blew it way out of proportion.

Aca320, to my knowledge, of the various fighter planes that you mentioned, only the f - 16 uses FBW. The F -14 and 15 were developed years before the 16, and used standard hydraulics.

In any case, no one has yet answered my question posed earlier on this thread. I would really like to know the answer.

Thanks, DF


User currently offlineMegatop From Denmark, joined May 1999, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

The fbw is much older. Yesterday I saw a television program, "First Flight". The host was Neil Amstrong, and he told that the Apollo spacecraft from late 60's and early 70's used fbw.

But in commercial aircraft the first to use it was Airbus in the A320.

Happy new year.


User currently offlineRavi From Singapore, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

You, my friend, need to read the posts previous to mine.

There is such thing as "context". It is context which you have ignored. It is also unwise to make posts personal.


User currently offlineDas Flugzeug From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (14 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Sorry but I did not realize the "context" of the messages you were replying to. I thought I had read them all previously, but I guess not. They didn't have the nifty little yellow "new" next to them.



25 TEDSKI : It was the Concorde first and then the US Air Force's F-16 Fighting Falcon & US Navy's F-18 Hornet that had the FBW systems first.
26 AKelley728 : On 737ng aircraft, does Boeing give an option for FBW?
27 AC183 : I haven't looked through every one of the answers here yet, but I can tell you FBW goes back a lot further than Airbus, and back to before Boeing ever
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