Ual747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2268 times:
I just read something that Buff wrote in another post and it made me think. Like he stated, he does not advocate racial profiling, but is it necessary? The enemy is trying to blend into society, so much that this latest incident involved and "arabic-looking" man with a passport that said his name was Richard Reid. Let's face it, most of these terrorist are of Arab decent. We all know that. They are out to kill us, and to harm Americans. It seems weird, and I hate to say it, but racial profiling seems the only other way to really hamper these people from attacking aircraft. I don't believe that every Arab is trying to cause harm, but people need to realize that it's not discrimination persay, but a means of protection for all passengers. I mean look at the fact as Buff stated them, an Arab guy, no bags, named Richard Reid, going to America. What do ya'll think?
Serge From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1989 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2103 times:
I highly agree with you UAL747.
It IS the only way to stop 'some' of possible future attacks IMO against airports and aircraft. I believe that not a whole lot has changed since 9-11 either, on one flight (although it was regional) my friends and I weren't screened or asked any questions about ANYTHING.. this was on the 9th of December this year.
I hope this AA 767 incident is another wake up call for airport security, they better not hit the snooze button again!
Trickijedi From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3266 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2084 times:
I just experienced this today. On the way back from LGA to ORD on United, a man who obviouslky looked Arab and was dressed in Arab garb was stopped before he boarded the plane. Shortly thereafter there was an announcement on the overhead speaker for "security to Gate so and so please". No one else was allowed to board at this time as the inspection was taking place. Eventually he was allowed to board and the entire process took about 10 minutes.
As the inspection was taking place I was thinking to myself, "I would probably be very pissed off if that happened to me!" But this guy took it very well - not one complaint out of his mouth and was fully cooperating with the authorities. On the one hand this has got to suck for this guy as well as other Arabs and Middle Easterners who are flying. I wonder how much of that they take personally and how much of that they could only take. But on the other hand, I understand that the public's protection is of the utmost importance and it would suck even more to have another air catastrophe happen.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
Carmy From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 627 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2070 times:
I don't know if you guys remember that in WW2, the US gathered up every single peace loving American of Japanese descent and sent them packing to camps and jails. That, if I remember correctly, was one of the most embarassing moments for the US. It was against everything the US had ever stood for, that it was the land of the free, that it welcomed all peoples of whatever background, and that it was a melting pot of different cultures. And now, you guys are actually suggesting a return to that? That Arabs and Middle Easterners should be subject to greater checks simply because of their race?
Tha very same country which accuses China of racial profiling in Tibet, of racial profiling in Kosovo, now has its citizens saying that racial profiling is necessary? I don't know, but it sure stinks of absolute hypocriscy and white supremacy to me.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2046 times:
...though I have several other reasons. It is the same as with this move of the USA to urge certain carriers to give away pax list in advance:
It looks good on CNN, it smells like"yes we are in charge and we bloody well know what we do", and, yes, it gives the chance to increase control over people just a little bit.
In the end, it's completely Bullsh.t. In terms of security it yields nothing, absolutely nothing, the next time they'll find another way to kill thousands of people. And if they want to go on using aircraft, well even there are other ways to gain control over an aircraft.
The USA are not used to this sort of violence, they haven't been experiencing it in their own country but for a few years. In other regions of the world, like former Yugoslavia, or Afghanistan, it's much easier to handle: Let the military take over and and shoot anyone who comes close and ask the corpse why he came close (that sounds rather cynic, but well...). That -fortunately- just doesn't work inside the USA.
So this time it's racial profiling, let's see what the hardliners come up with next time.
Merry Christmas to Singapore and anyplace else in the world from a very cold and snowy Berlin/Germany
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2036 times:
...you just make it legal. As for international law: Well, the biggest bully on the schoolyard (I have that saying from an American!) couldn't care less for international law, if it doesn't suit him.
Ogseminole From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1976 times:
Most flight crews have been "professionally profiled" since 9/11.
Every time we go thru security, at least one of us gets picked out and wanded and patted down.
We are being selected because of what we wear to work. Our uniforms.
If the minority of Arabs dressed in native garb have a problem with being selected, TOUGH!!
This is war folks and the old saying "All is fair in love and war" rings true.
Screw political correctness. It was fanatical Islamic creeps that brought us to this stage.
Profile them all.
America West From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
Just keep all foreigners out of the United States and there wont be any problems like this again.
I was driving to school last month listening to the radio and some stupid woman called in saying that exact same thing.
First of all, like mentioned above, there goes tourism. Thousands of people will use their jobs, people will go broke, businesses will go bankrupt, should I go on?
Second of all, how many of us can say that we are 100% American Indian? We wouldn't be here if the US closed their borders a long time ago. Just about all Americans have some other sort of descent. Not to mention, that is what the US stands for!
...and there wont be any problems like this again.
Really? Did foreigners kill the kids at Columbine? Did an Arab cause the evacuation of ATL? After the Oklahoma City bombing, everyone thought that it was the work of some terrorist organization, and it turns out, it was one of our own people that thought he was some sort of "hero."
Jfidler From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
This is essentially the rationalization argument. It's not necessarily a bad one. But to put it in perspective, let's look at another area where racial profiling is said to occur in the U.S.: with blacks and crime.
In most large stores, the store employs undercover security guards who walk around to spot people who are shoplifting. Now imagine you had this position. The measure of your doing a good job is the number of people you catch who are stealing.
So, let's say you're watching the entrance to the store, and two people walk in and you want to follow one of them to see if they're stealing. One is a white woman, and the other is a black man. I bet nearly all security guards will follow the black man. Why? Because if you look at the statistics of who commits more crimes (rate, not number of people), it's black males who commit most of the crimes (I realize in my example, I confused the issue by comparing to a white female, but that's just to emphasize the disparity).
Now, you could say that because black males are always being watched and targeted, then that's why the arrest rate is so high (they're being watched and observed more). Maybe white males commit crimes at the same or higher rate, but just don't get caught because they aren't being observed as closely.
That's possible, but it doesn't apply when we look at the topic at hand: airline security (because you always know when the crime is committed because it results in an explosion/death/etc that's obvious). Let's look at all the airline-involved terrorist acts in the last two years, and there's a disproportionately high percentage of those commited by men of Middle Eastern descent.
So, if your goal as an airport security specialist is to stop as much terrorism as possible, then focusing on past data, you'll always target men of Middle Eastern descent.
This doesn't mean that people of other nationalities aren't capable of committing the same acts. But looking at past history, those of Middle Eastern descent do it at a disproportionately high rate.
I did a quick search on the web, and there's an interesting essay (with data) on racial profiling at: http://www.jeffsarchive.com/race/Race,%20Crime,%20and%20Violence.html
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16493 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1904 times:
Racial profiling of Arabic people is unfortunately necessary, at least for the short term. It's realistically a small price to pay for the general complete freedom and high incomes that they otherwise enjoy in the US.
Incidently, before you do-gooders call me a white 'racist'....I'm a black Canadian.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
Etafilcon From Finland, joined Sep 2001, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
I think it's a fact that racial profiling would be effective in preventing hijackings, but the effect of such things on society would be severe. Officially promoting racism would lead to a more and more divided world and this would actually work for the terrorists: in a world where "their people" get discriminated only for being "their people" it would be much easier for eg. al quaida to get committed people to their side.
There could maybe be some kind of a solution. The officials would use racial profiling but also offer a substantial compensation for the embarrasment to the people who get the "extra attention". Just an idea, your opinions?
Ben88 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1883 times:
Many Americans have died to protect our civil liberties. It's nice to see how easily you are all willing to throw them away. Just because we are at war does not mean that we throw everything out the window and everything goes. We have rules to follow, which is one of the reasons we are a civilized country. If we start profiling our own citizens, we are no better than a third rate facist country. Not very patriotic if you ask me...
ContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (13 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1876 times:
Let's not forget that we have our own homegrown terrorists, who are/were white. Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and current reports that the Anthrax scare was
quite possibly committed by a disgruntled US military personnel....however, the vicious and savage events of 9/11, the foiled but nonetheless scary experience on Flight 63 point to the fact that Osama's gift to the Arab world will be racial profiling.
I firmly believe that we are fighting a war against terrorism, against a nasty, primitive organization that has twisted Islam in an effort to bring legitimacy to its cause, not to mention members. Having said that, I am a frequent flyer, and I am saddened to say that the sight of a Middle Eastern looking person with no hand baggage, well dressed, clean shaven or not, is something worth looking into, for peace of mind. The alternative is much, much worse.
: Ben88 - I suppose your comments were for me? I'm sorry I guess I sounded too pro-profiling. I'm strongly against it basicly because of the reasons you
: Right now National Security is more important than Political Correctness. In the United States "Richard Reid" would have really turned some heads if h
: If you're arab, and are racially "profiled" by security before your flight, then don't be pissed off at the airlines and security, be pissed off the t
: "P.S. Yyz717 is NOT a racist, he just tells it like it is." I just hate these kind of comments SO much. His comments are racist in the only true sense
: It is sad but in the world we live in today, it is necessary. If many of the hijackers and suicide bombers were not Middle Eastern, it would not be ne
: Profiling happens everywhere. In this case it is more legit due to national security. For the most part I am against profiling because I doubt 3 afric
: Ben88 and Etafilcon, you guys are well-meaning but incredibly naive. Calling someone (such as me) a 'racist' simply because I support racial-profiling
: "If you guys can't debate in a civilized fashion and can't show respect for contrary opinions, perhaps you should not participate on thus forum." I do
: I forgot to add this. It is necessary @ the airport but not in the entire country. No one forces you to go to the airport and be subjected to the secu
: You are correct Etafilcon...you did not call me a racist. But you went on to say "why don't you just admit that racism is allowed on this column".....
: If you take the profiling approach, sooner or later these groups are going to get some non-Arab sympathisers on board who will do their bidding - such
: Yyz717, I agree this is a very interesting topic and we should not go into name calling. I have a lot of respect for someone who can discuss a thing l