Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 36 Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3531 times:
If you counted PA´s 11 Lockerbie casualties you´ll have to include another ~2000 for UA and another 125 + ~1000 for AA - so this way of making a statistic is not that sensible, imho only of course. It´s like saying Concorde was the safest type before the crash and the unsafest after.
Spantax comes to mind as an extremely notorious specimen - very small fleet, operating for a very short peroid of time but fatal crashes every other year; plus tons of other near disaster incidents; plus pax died from their food (now who´s ever going to complain about certain airlines´ meals´ quality ?!?
Tg 747-300 From Norway, joined Nov 1999, 1318 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3498 times:
I know that mant factors must bee taken into consideration, and i must say that i only tried to compare airlines of about the same size. UAL AA and NWA are maybe togetehr with DL the largest airlines in the states, and Pan Am was w big airline (I think)
I'm not actually interested in making a good statistic, but thought that the difference between NWA and the other carriers were big.
And actually I still think the Concorde is one of the safest planes flying because its flying under conditions thet are quite extreme compared to the 737 etc.
Its actually strange that it took so long time before the first concorde accident, and even that accident wasn't the concordes fault (It was maybe if we says taht the fuel tanks should have been designet different etc. but.)
NewSwissair From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 282 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3459 times:
Please don`t forget. Aeroflot have had a fleet of over 15,000
aircraft and helicopters before 1991. And the weather conditions were extremly difficult in Sibiria. Most airport haven`t got radar systems.
Ryanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16 Reply 11, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3388 times:
According to today's Evening Standard (London) the Airlines involved in the largest number of fatal crashes over the last 10 years are as follows (followed by the number of crashes in brackets).
Merpati Nusantara (7)
Indian Airlines (4)
China Airlines (3)
China Southern (3)
Ariana Afghan (3)
Air France (3)
Interestingly, despite 2001 being a horrendous year for the air travel industry, in terms of the fatalities in air crashes (851) this is well below the annual average of 1246, which means that relatively it was one of the best years in terms of overall safety!!!
In terms of times of risk, here are the fatal stages of flight disasters for 2001:
Take off 3
On ground 1
I hope this info is useful!!!
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
David_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7257 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3323 times:
Do you honestly believe flying for 28 years is "a short period of time"? Spantax flew from 1960 to 1988 (i.e. formed 2 years before Britannia) but they collapsed due to financial considerations.
As for "fatal crashes every other year", searching through airdisaster.com shows us 3 crashes for Spantax: 7th December 1965 (a DC3 in Tenerife killing all 32 on board), 3rd December 1972 (CV990 in Tenerife killing all 155 on board) and 13th September (DC10 in Malaga killing 50 out of 393 on board).
I hope you can furnish us all with the details of the alleged salmonella-induced deaths because your track record on the history of the company tends to support the theory that you don't know what you're talking about.
Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 36 Reply 17, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3274 times:
>>>Do you honestly believe flying for 28 years is "a short period of time"?
Spantax flew from 1960 to 1988 (i.e. formed 2 years before Britannia) but they collapsed due to financial considerations.
And during how many of these 28 years they were a full fledged established holiday airline? They were so absolutely dependant on the German market, they fully emerged during the seventies and were doomed when they were fired by the German tour operators in the late seventies/early eighties (due to their safety problems, I might add).
>>>As for "fatal crashes every other year", searching through airdisaster.com shows us 3 crashes for Spantax: 7th December 1965 (a DC3 in Tenerife killing all 32 on board), 3rd December 1972 (CV990 in Tenerife killing all 155 on board) and 13th September (DC10 in Malaga killing 50 out of 393 on board).
See, and that´s why the aviation-safety.net is a much better database - if you had looked up there you´d have found all 6 accidents (all but one involving at least 1 fatality), 4 of them within 2 years, 5 of them within 7 years, all 6 stretched over a period of 17 years.
Plus don´t forget the landing at XFW instead of HAM, the DC8 belly landing (at DUS?)...
>>>I hope you can furnish us all with the details of the alleged salmonella-induced deaths because your track record on the history of the company tends to support the theory that you don't know what you're talking about.
Love it or leave it; it´s from old SPIEGEL archives at our library. An article about the safety problems at Spantax featured that tidbit of info. I´m not going through those heaps of 30+ year old paper again.
Av8trxx From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 657 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (11 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3219 times:
What time span does the AirDisasters.com stats page cover? I couldn't find it. Most go back to only 1970, or the start of the 'jet age'. Of course, your stats are going to be entirely different depending on what time frame you use. For example (narrowing it down):
The US airline that has had the most fatal accidents during the jet age or since 1970 is American Airlines/American Eagle (*yes commuters are seperate but AirSafe includes them) with 12. However, since 1945 AA have lost a total of 37 aircraft in accidents, but not all were fatal events.
Second place is United Airlines/*United Express with 11 fatal crashes since 1970, but if you go back to 1945 they would be FIRST in the US. Their total aircraft lost due to accidents since 1945 is a bit worse than AA at 43, but again not all crashes were fatal events.
Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 36 Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3163 times:
I even forgot one of Spantax´ accidents: the midair collision of one of their CV990s with an IB DC9 over France in 1973 in which all 68 on board the IB craft perished. That leaves us with accidents in 1965, 1970, 1970, 1972, 1972, 1973 and 1982 - semantics aside (and I gladly concede your mastering of the English language is certainly superior to mine), 5 accidents in 3 years, 6 accidents in 8 years, 7 accidents in 17 years - whichever way you look at it, it´s an impressive streak (of whatever).
And on your repeated statements that Spantax operated for 28 years (29 actually, they were founded in 1959, not 1960) - I just read Mr. Bay Wright´s obituary (http://www.el-mundo.es/2000/10/02/opinion/02N0036.html for hispanohablantes):
The founder of Spantax continued to be a commercial pilot at Iberia until 1967; can you imagine his airline Spanish Air Taxis can have been more than a hobby before that?
This article, which is written very positively toward the deceased and his company, characterises Spantax as suffering "for years of slow agony until its eventual disappearance" since at least 1979.
Your way of looking at Spantax as a whole is misleading, just like calculating an average consumption of alcohol over a whole population, including babies, pregnant women, 80 year olds etc.
>>>though they were pretty big in the UK as well!
I believe you´re right, after the German tour operators cancelled their contracts with them they had to sell their capacity to someone else; and since the British customer is less demanding than the German one (generally speaking), Spantax´ routes were shifted from Germany to the UK to a great extent in the eighties.
Bx737 From Ireland, joined Sep 2001, 656 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3117 times:
A few facts about Spantax:
Founded in 1959 as the Spanish Air Taxi company. It flew Inclusive Tour Charters from 1962 until 1988. There is a book "World directory of airliner crashes", by Terry Denham which lists all aircraft written off by various airlines from 1900 until the publish date. It lists Spantax as having lost the following:
1960 Avro 19 in Las Palmas, no fatalities
1965 DC3 in Tenerife, hit a hill 32 fatalities
1970 CV990 in Stockholm on a 3 engined ferry flight 5 killed
1970 DC7 in Madrid on a cargo flight, no fatalities
1972 DC3 Madrid on a training flight, 1 fatality
1972 CV990 Tenerife took off slower than V2, stalled and crashed 155 fatalities
1980 Learjet Palma hit a hill, 4 dead
1982 DC10 Malaga 50 dead, burst tyre and aborted take off.
Two other incidents have been mentioned elsewhere, namely the CV990 midair collision which according to Patrick Formans book Flight into Danger was caused by bad ATC by military controllers during an ATC strike. This caused the resignation of the French Transport minister. Another incident was a wheels up landing in Cologne in 1978. The aircraft was repaired and returned to service.
According to the book Leisure Airlines of Europe Spantax carried 24 million passengers in its history.
They also flew extensively from Scandinavia to Spain. This was in addition to Germany, the UK and other European countries.
As regards landing at a wrong airport, didn't Northwest do the same a few years ago?
As regards small fleets, there were a number of years when Spantax was bigger than some European flag carriers and in fact carried over 2 million people in 1980.
WRT food poisoning, I'm sure if you look at the records for many hotels, there have been food poisoning cases. Indeed last year in Ireland a number of hotels had to be closed due to food poisoning, so to bunch food poisoning in with accidents is very disingenuous.