AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1449 times:
Angus Kinnear stopped short of calling on the federal Competition Bureau to end Air Canada's new discount service, Tango, in order to ensure a place for his airline and jobs for 1,200 former employees.
But he made it clear that he considers Ottawa's delayed response to Canada 3000's complaints about anti-competitive pricing by Tango to be a critical factor in his airline's collapse last Nov. 11. The government's competition watchdog revealed the day after Canada 3000 collapsed that the bureau was poised to issue a cease and desist order against Tango.
"I'm quite sure, had they issued the order a day before, we wouldn't be having this conversation today," Kinnear said in a telephone interview yesterday.
Come on... Does he really think that Tango had had that much to do with there demise!!! I work for the enemy.....Oddly enough my wife "worked" for C3. Gee the issues we had....lol. All kidding aside I really firmly belive that Tango played no role in there demise. The distrust in Canada 3000 brand was already there due on there own part!
Second, Now with the Next Gen Canada 3000 They are say we want Tango out or restricted in order for us to get in the market!!! What a bunch of babies!! Air Canada has earned to be where they are today and the respect that there name brings along with that show's in consumer confidence. Tango along with Air Canada in the back round to help it sell. I'm all for it and firmly belive that yes, we need some competition in Canada. When we need to start putting restrictions such as sease and desist orders even before the company Get's it's foot in the door. Well enough said. I wish C3 all the best of luck.
Dash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2742 posts, RR: 12 Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1244 times:
Well I am not for Tango or Zip but I don't believe that Tango had anything to do with the demise of C3. Tango was in service for like 2 days I mean come on. So no Tango should not be closed becuase of that, but Zip should be cancelled before it starts
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1238 times:
I agree with you on the Zip not the Tango!!! I still feel that AC should be able to match prices and hold seat sales as it see's fit! If Westjet is in such great finacial shape well then it should be able to handle some competition.
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1225 times:
"Zip is a hostile attempt to sink Westjet. With hubs in Calgary and Hamilton of all places."
I agree that Zip is aimed at Westjet directly! But why not? Is there not room for some competition out west. For AC out west it's a weaker market for them. So why not try to cater to the " mood :" of the traveling public!
As for Calgary and Hamilton. Well we already are out of Calgary, Hamilton just would make sense to flow traffic thru there as center point. Cost point of view and so forth. Tango works out of L.B.P.I.A seeing that we handle Tango. Zip would be something totaly different. Ceo and staffing would be outside of AC it would be a subsidary. In the end I really don't think Zip will ever fly! Time will tell.
Rootsgirl From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 530 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1221 times:
Here! here! I totally agree with everything that you are saying and I cannot believe anyone who knows Canadian aviation would even entertain believing what Angus is trying to pull off. Gee, wish he would make up his mind, is it Sept 11, Tango, Royal or CUPE that was responsible for the demise of C-3000? OR could it be mismanagement - heaven forbid that possibility!
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1208 times:
I don't agree or think that any airline should have a monopoly anywhere. As for Canadian airlines. What's left of them. Using Sept 11th as a cop out. AC was in the RED big time... The only thing that Sept 11 did was act as an acelorator to the end result. BIG MONEY TROUBLES!!! Alot of people have suferd because of it, be it lay offs or any other result. My only concern is when people or Ceo's blame other factors, rather then step up to plate and call it what it is.. A screw up!!! I would love to see Angus admit he shouldn'd have gone Sked nor should he have taken on Royal or Canjet!!
My 2cents worth
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1195 times:
I sure hope not!!! Ill be out on the street... LOL I believe that there are enough people out there who care enough about Air Canada to keep it going if it were ever in that position.As long as Air CAnada wanranted being saved. Let's look back to the ONYX fun.. Who in the end came up!!
We are seeing it now with C3. The people who belive in it want to wake it again. Would you if you had a unlimited supply of cash???
If it's worth it go for it! If not leave it alone!!! That would be the way I would look at it.
Mcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1188 times:
AirCanadaGuy wrote: "Zip would be something totaly different."
It would be something totally different alright. Presumably it will be a way of watering down Westjet's market. Or perhaps a way of keeping people and resources preoccupied until the parent company is relieved of the expensive promises it made at the time of the AC/CP merger.
Gmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2158 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1153 times:
I think that AC sould focus on what they know best....thats scheduled AC service. SouthWest is Southwest and WJ is WJ, I don't know why AC is trying to be WJ or Southwest???? They do well, I think on their scheduled runs....
I like the idea of Tango, a more cost efficient way of travel, Zip....no so excited. My question is....will the NGC3 has like charter service again? Can I get a flight to LAS at the end of april, but why would i take them, you know, book a ticket and see them fail. I better go with Sky Service.....I won't fly TS. Air Transat is crap, done it two to many times to LAS. Why doesn't AC get some L1011's back.....and blow TS out of the market....that would help Canadain aviation.
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1136 times:
Thanks for the welcome!!
As for AC trying to be like WJ or Southwest! Are they not a sked operator? So there for, Air Canada has just brought in a product to cater to the people who may not care about free peanuts or drinks! Wouldn't you rather be able to bring your own food, rather than eat airplane food?? I would! Plus save a few buck at the same time...
The L1011 are not cost effective for AC and with the fleet renewal it is not possible. Besides it's getting harder and harder to find parts for the aging L1011.
Fallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 20 Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1126 times:
AirCanadaGuy you should first know that I am a Westjet supporter...and welcome.
In a time where the economy is slowing and Air Canada is downsizing, do you really see a need to put an addition 20 gas guzzlers back into the sky? Other international carriers like British Airways, Continental, and United, just to name a few have tried launching discount carriers themselves, all have been unsuccessful. Tango is working, and i like the idea of it. That I have no problems with, I also believe it had nothing to do with the demise of Canada 3000. The proposed LCC I do.
If Canada 3000 does comeback I think that Tango should NOT be restricted, and allowed to do what it is doing now. Canada 3000 is the newcomer and should have to find it's own niche.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1120 times:
Angus is trying to deflect blame from his own mgmt mistakes by blaming Tango. He's not likely to admit that moving to sked ops, buying QN, buying Canjet were mistakes, even though it appears they were. Even if Tango had been shut down, C3 was still out of cash and would have collapsed anyway.
Success has a thousand parents. Failure is an orphan.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Mcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1100 times:
AirCanadaGuy wrote: "I do however believe that there is a market that Air Canada could tap into with the same gas guzzlers as Westjet has!"
There is, but it's not the one they're planning to tap into. If Zip were intended to be a profitable venture, then it would make sense for them to fill in the voids in Westjet's network. Some of these voids are large: routes to, from and within Quebec and the Atlantic provinces, as well as trans-border routes.
Zip, it seems, has little interest in those potentially profitable voids.
Instead, they're going to create hubs in Calgary and Hamilton, thus resulting in the same kinds of planes flying the same routes at the same times. When they did this against Canadian, it was AC that was the market leader and CP that was the upstart. But this time it's Westjet that will be the market leader and Zip that will be the Johnny-come-lately.
Which pretty well rules out Zip as having any profit potential.
And which brings us back to questioning Zip's motives. Is it an attempt to start a war of attrition with Westjet? A make-work project until 2004, when Air Canada will have the handcuffs of its fatuous no-layoffs-for-five-years promise taken off? A bit of both?
Gmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2158 posts, RR: 22 Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1093 times:
With AC be replaceing some of the sked flights with these zip flights. What I am saying is offer three different levels of flights to the same place. Cover all aspects of the aviation world. Low cost, Medium cost and business travler upscale class. There will be one stop shopping....AC is dipping into all of the aviation pots!!!
P.S. AirCanadaGuy: I was joking with the L1011 thing...laugh once and a while!!
Fallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 20 Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1091 times:
Well said Mcdougald.
Westjet has holes in it's system. No Toronto, Montreal, hell it's Eastern presence in barely noticable, and no trans-border. There are plenty of other places that Air Canada can make a profit from, but it instead decides to focus against one carrier, a carrier that has a loyal following and the Western provinces on it's back.
If any of you come out to YYC I'm sure that some of us spotters would gladly show you the Air Canada Gas Guzzlers parked all over the airfield.
AirCanadaGuy From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1094 times:
"Air Canada will have the handcuffs of its fatuous no-layoffs-for-five-years promise taken off?"
Have you not been reading or watching the news in past while??? The only people who have not had any lay offs is the customer sales agents! As for make work project!!! How do you figure?? It would be staffed not by Air Canada. !! NEW HIRES!!! The new employees would be hired under Zip or what ever the name will be!
Hence it would creat jobs!
Also don't forget the gaps that you say Zip should pick up to be profitable. There already being served by either AC mainline or Tango!
25 Gmonney: Fallingeese....Is that where all of the 732 are being stored, i have heard that some of the DC-9's are in North Bay, ON. Do you think that Zip would e
26 Fallingeese: Gmonney- Calgary is loaded with F-28's and 737's all around. Tons are sitting in foreign locations of the airport, basically where ever the space is c
27 AirCanadaGuy: Gmonney, LOL The reply for the L1011 is that there are alot of people who would like to see them in the fleet. Each to there own. As for double dippin
28 Fallingeese: I was a Canadi>n Kid. I don't have anything against Air Canada, I just am a strong Westjet supporter. The kindness they have snowed myself is beyond w
29 AirCanadaGuy: The 737 have not been maintanied as the 9's have! There fore increased wear! Mind you the 737 is one heck of a work horse also! It's also a very versa
30 Fallingeese: Yes I'm aware of the upperdeck cargo as I have flown on a couple of Combi flights with First Air. I've been on probably 60-70 737's so i know the full
31 Gmonney: My cousin couldn't say enough good things about WJ when she went to calgary. She was impressed with the pilot or maybe first office coming out and pla
32 Fallingeese: I had a funny experiance flying home to Calgary a weekago. The Westjet flightcrew said whoever has the oldest penny wins this surprise gift. The lady
33 CPDC10-30: Air Canada is on a different competitive level from WestJet now and C3 previously. Although they are bleeding tons and tons of cash at the moment, the
34 Gmonney: A barf bag with pennies is great, I have never been on an aircraft when the whole plane laughs together. See, thats the way I work, when people come t
35 Dash8King: I too am a Westjet supporter, and would choose them over AC or Zip anyday, I don't care if Zip is cheaper I will still fly Westjet becuase I know in t
36 Ramprat: I work for AC in Calgary and i hope that this discount carrier never gets off the ground. I think we need to concentrate on getting the mainline back
37 Fallingeese: Well said Raprant, If only Milton listened to some of his employees opinions.
38 Gmonney: Do you think Milton cares about employees....all that A-hole thinks about is his pockets and his shareholders. He is in charge of making the company m
39 Fallingeese: OOHHH ya, now you're talking Grant. When Air Canada was facing hard times ahewad, Milton refused to take a pay cut, because he had taken one earlier..
40 Gmonney: Can't agree more with the DC-9 thing, maybe a.net people should take over AC and run it properly!! LOL!!! It's like Milton is lining his gold pockets
41 Captaingomes: This has been a wonderful discussion, and I am joining it late in the game. But in any case, I agree with what you guys are saying, but if I may disag
42 CPDC10-30: Milton surely is not considering his shareholders..if I was one I'd have his head! AC has been one of the worst performing stocks over the past 10 yea
43 AirCanadaGuy: What Air Canada and Robert Milton is trying to do is be #1 and the only way he see's that being possible is by being the only 1 !!!! With the recent l
44 Ramprat: AirCanadaGuy, we lost about 13 leads and 45 stats. Boy did we feel it over Christmas, we were just running around like crazy. Can't imagine what is wa
45 Ramprat: AirCanadaGuy, we lost about 13 leads and 45 stats. Boy did we feel it over Christmas, we were just running around like crazy. Can't imagine what is wa
46 Superdawg: I will probably get a lot of slack for this but here it goes: Air Canada wants to lauch Zip in a territory that another company is making money. This
47 Mcdougald: Superdawg wrote: "Who knows, but AC is just doing what any business in any industry would do, go where profits are being made." They're going where so
48 Superdawg: Mcdougald. I fully agree with what you have to say about past airlines trying to make LCC's and about Air Canada's costs hindering their profit making
49 Canadi>nBoy: AirCanadaGuy...You're right on the money. Hmmmm, I still say Angus should leave well enough alone and opt to open a chain of Scottish Gay Beauty Spas.
50 Gmonney: The way I look at it is, Milton had no choise to open in Hamilton and Calgary.....there is no competition in the east but his own. The only thing that
51 Crj 900: Well all I can say is that all the other companies in Canada better look out. Air Canada Regional's Pilots & Flight Attendants now have new contracts(
52 Mcdougald: Didn't Harding Lawrence have the same view of Braniff's position at DAL in relation to Southwest, circa 1972? Seriously, the survivor in the airline w
53 Crj 900: Don't kid yourself Mc Dougald, as already previously mentioned by others here, the government will NEVER allow AC to fail and WJ or whatever will neve
54 Mcdougald: I agree that the odds of the government allowing AC to fold as Braniff did are low. Will Westjet fold? Not likely, if they continue to be managed as w
55 Canadi>nBoy: Well, it's official now. based on radio news reports, former C3 CEO Angus Kinnear has announced he will now focus his attention on reuniting and manag
56 AirCanadaGuy: Mcdougald, Do you hinestly think the we as a people are as pre occupied with on time as we are with safety? I don't think so! 3/4 if not more of the d
57 Mcdougald: AirCanadaGuy: The security issues that you mentioned are affecting North American airlines across the board. When all is set and done, AC should still