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Continental To Park 2 777's For 2002 And Furlough  
User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3215 times:

Last night the pilots of Continental and Continental Express were notified that the company would be furloughing 50 pilots in March and another 50 in April back to Express. That means another 100 Express pilots will hit the street in the upcomming months. The company would not allow the pilots to make concessions in pay or work hours to keep some of the pilots employeed. On the same day, Continental made company news updates about the perfect attendance and Ford Explorer giveaways. Wall Street has been kind to CAL over the last few weeks but it just wasn't enough for CAL to be able to stick to what they told us before Christmas. They said no new furloughes expected in 2002. Here we go again. "Working Together" seems to only be important when the most highly compensated upper management in the industry decides it is time to do so. As an Express pilot, I see this as more than just obsorbing 100 more mainline pilots and getting pushed down even more. As soon as they can, CAL will try to float the Express IPO and spin us off into never never land after we have suffered the brunt of all the layoffs and provided jobs for several hundred mainline pilots. What a slap in the face. I came to this company over several others because I really believed in the senior management. I even had several "from worst to first" books signed by Gordon and gave them to family members as gifts one Christmas. Can any other CAL employees chime in here and offer anything positive, because I'm really starting to become negative. I refuse to bring negativity to the cockpit but at home I find it hard to get motivated about this company. I really think we are poised for some kind of merger right now. Air Micronesia is distancing itself again from the mainland carrier by putting the micronesia planes back on the Air Mic certificate and that scares the hell out of me. 2002 will be interesting. I hope I'm all wrong.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHkgspotter1 From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Hope the Air Mic planes get the titles back !!

CO are due to get two new 777's this year.


User currently offlineBluewhite From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2001, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Well, I truly sympathize with you - a great heartfelt post.

I think why the management have to do things is because they and CAL are benchmarked every day against all sorts of "funny" benchmarks by Wall St analysts, against other airlines, shareholder returns, return on capital employed etc etc ad nauseum and a lot of it is driven by financials nowadays. So they have to be seen to act in one way or another by the "market" (rightly or wrongly), to keep their jobs and avoid shareholders from giving them a bollocking.
Blame capitalism!!

BW


User currently offlineEWR757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 360 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2834 times:



Why do you Express guys bitch and moan about the flowback program? You signed on at Express knowing full well that the program was in place (flow up with the potential for flow back) and many of these pilots going back were ex Express to begin with.

Every Express pilot who flowed up to CAL created a vacancy in the first place which is exactly how the program was designed.

No news here.

My initial read is there were 400 mainline pilots WITHOUT positions from the last bid. If only 100 are left without positions, i.e. flowback, it should be a net increase of 300 off the last bid.

I'll trust Bethune to do what ever it takes to keep the company solvent. Last time I checked there were no guarantees in life, especially aviation.







User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Well EWR757, I am bitching because I am fully aware that the company intends to spin Express off and grow us like crazy at the expense of the mainline. After obsorbing all the flow-backs, which I was in favor of, they will spin us off leaving us in a worse condition seniority wise than before with no real hope of a transition to mainline CAL in the future. I have never bitched about CAL/CALEX, the management, the flow-through/back policy. I'm just beginning to see all this for what its worth. You are probably in a position where none of this effects you but many of the junior mainline and senior Express pilots lives/careers have just been changed significantly. Not to mention the junior Express pilots (486) that will be without a job at all. I've read some of your previous posts and don't feel arguing with you on specifics in a public forum is constructive. I hope Gordon does turn this thing around but I see other carriers not as concerned about being the first of the big 6 to turn a profit in 2002. They also have less employees percentage wise on furlough. I'm a shareholder too, believe me I want to see CAL do well. I'm just frustrated at the attitude senior management gives everytime the pilots offer ideas to reduce furloughes. These are ideas that will be paid for out of the flight operations budget/ie pilot paychecks. There are reasons for managements refusal to accept these other than what is printed in the WSJ.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

I'm sorry but, get over it. The Airline business is no more immune to layoffs than any other---surely you must have known that?

As a CO sharelholder I applaud their efforts in getting the carrier back on solid financial ground.

In the long run, you'll be happy too.


User currently offlineHoffa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

This is the downside of "Onelist" seniority between Mainline and Express carriers---CAL is one of the few airlines that both owns its own express carriers and maintains a common seniority list for all its pilots. At Delta for instance, furloughed mainline pilots were not offered positions at Comair or ASA even though both are wholly-owned by Delta itself, and Comair is/was actually hiring in limited numbers.

Count yourself lucky that they are laying off by seniority and not by type as some European airlines are doing.



User currently offlineHoffa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

I love how some of you can so sanctimoniously gloat "Get over it" when people are in genuine distress. Cowboy capitalism or what.

User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Hoffa,
While you make good points, there is not a common seniority list at CAL/CALEX. I could go into it deeply but just know that there are 2 seperate lists with unique ways to crossover into the other list etc.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Sorry to hear about CO and COEX, I thought they had turned the corner? Most acrriers are announcing that the number of layoffs won't be nearly as bad as originally thought, with a few even recalling. I don't understand, thought CO was always priding itself on being the new industry leader.

I can definitely feel your pain IAHERJ, having to accept massize furloughs for no benfit later on, no more flow throughs. NWA pilots approached us about one recently and we basically said thanks but no thanks, we had been asking for one for years and never heard back, now all of a sudden, boom here they are.

Good luck, hope this is only temporary.


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2735 times:

I said from the first post on that I am not a complainer. I have been an open advocate on this forum for CAL. I still love the company. This forum is very diverse and I posted the topic fully aware that some reactions would be 180 degrees from my own. Overall, CAL will do well over the long-run as compared to other carriers currently hurting worse than we are. I personally will not lose my job under this furlough or a furlough down the road that is twice the size of the last 2. What really chaps my hide is the fact that we are taking a big one for the team at Express, then the team is probably going to sell us out after it becomes profitable once again. The ERJ's are very profitable for CAL and are very important at this time as they are keeping the domestic and Mexico bottom line afloat. What do the Express employees get in return? A demotion from captain to first officer which is about a 55%pay cut then once the company starts to make money again, we are spun off as a seperate corporation with mainline pilots who never worked for Express on our seniority list ahead of most of us. It is not the fault of the mainline pilot as he/she has no other choice. It really is a slap in the face if the flow-through works over 4 years only to be reversed totally in a few months with a termination of the agreement shortly after. All my apples are and have not been in the CAL basket. I was almost packed for an interview with another top 4 major when this happened. Enough rambling on my part.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

Thanks CV640.

I think this will be the last round. The initial numbers looked worse than what we will ultimately see as far as total furloughes go. The depressing thing is that at Christmas we were told no more new furloughes projected for 2002. Last night things changed. I and others are fully aware of the liquidity of the airline industry. I just hope these new furloughes come with some explanation from the company as of late, they have offered no insight. I am going to quit complaining as I know others have it much worse right now. I got off my chest what was bothering me. It is just frustrating that such a great airline (CALEX) is being used as a bargaining tool for upcomming pilot negotiations. I guess reserve will be even longer than expected in IAH. I think I'll go try EWR. Maybe I can hold a line within the next year there.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineRamper@IAH From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Let's try to think of another carrier like CALEX that has furloughed 25% of its pilots.The point is that the Company LIED it its pilots! They were told not to expect any additional furloughs barring any unforseen negative market changes. CAL has stated that they will return to profitability in the 2nd quarter...obviously the on the backs of the CAL/CALEX pilots.

User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Hoffa: This is not genuine distress. It wouldn't be on an enthusiasts bulletin board if it was. Also, you seem to be fond of the phrase "cowboy capitalism"...it's actually a compliment down here. So--thanks!

IAHERJ: You'll be in a much better financial situation in six months. I think any discomfort or uncertainty you feel, is, at best, termporary. Anyway...you'll probably IPO by the end of the year and then you 'll have a new set of problems to worry about. Good Luck.


User currently offlineCV640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 952 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Yeah, just wish that airlines would setup a real plan and try it. They seem to change them weekly if not daily, of course that's going to just cause more losses. Would be nice if they could be staright, hard to see such a large policy change in a short a short time frame.

Good luck to you either in IAH or EWR, I'm backing ym bags for good old DTW soon


User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

>>Let's try to think of another carrier like CALEX that has furloughed 25% of its pilots.The point is that the Company LIED it its pilots! They were told not to expect any additional furloughs barring any unforseen negative market changes. CAL has stated that they will return to profitability in the 2nd quarter...obviously the on the backs of the CAL/CALEX pilots.<<

If I remember correctly, this is a changing industry. I could say to you one thing now and have it change by this time next week.

And this is a COMPANY, not a welfare agency. The #1 job of a public company is to make the stock price go up, not make sure that they be dedicated to their employees. While there can be a harmony with a mix of both, that can't always happen. CO management is trying to do both, and they realize that the owners of the company(stockholders) want to see CO stock go up. Gordon Bethune doesn't want to piss off his bosses, as that wouldn't be good(See Goodwin, Jim). The problem is that when you just try to have one or the other as the large focus, you can lose the support from the other group and the business can collapse(See Wolfe, Stephen). So, GB isn't trying to piss off the employees, yet he wants to gain support of the people who control his paycheck.

PS: I know that WN is an exception. But, CO and WN focus on two very different business models.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

According to Continental, there are NOT going to be as many furlows as the original amount announced, so to imply that more people are going to be let go than before isn't entirely true. It is just that the original furlows are starting to actually take place

according to Continental News...

Total pilot furloughs to be less than projected
The company had initially projected last September that a total of 936 CO pilots would be furloughed. A faster than expected return of passengers last Fall has allowed the company to reduce the 936 furloughs to only 539 positions. One-hundred of these furloughs will occur this Spring as a result of the new Summer 2002 schedule.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

The key point IMO is that Continental management has thrown its hard-earned credibility out the window by talking the talk ("no more furloughs") then failing to walk the walk. As stated by Ramper@IAH, "the Company LIED." Perhaps a better translation would be: "the Company LIED." Who then can know what to believe or not believe when management speaks?

That comes as no surprise to me since Gordon Bethune became Gordon Buffoon IMO with his crassly-timed pitch for billions of welfare for the airlines (far more than the airlines lost during the 3 days they were idled by FAA mandate) while announcing arbitrary, draconian cuts from the other side of his mouth--all on the same day America officially mourned the events of 9/11 which happened just four days earlier, while rescue workers risked their lives in hopes of finding even one survivor trapped in the WTC and Pentagon rubble.

Worst to first, IMO, was all about a fast-talking used car salesman named Gordon who created an illusion with borrowed money which has cast him in a new role--the emporer who has no clothes--since the events of 9/11 separated the leaders and sound business plans in the industry from the wannabes.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Where are the "MORE" furloughs that you speak of ?, all I see is the actual activation of the original furlough program, and the amount of affected being almost halved.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

This is from CO's "Daily News Update" for Wednesday, January 9th. Now, you be the judge about this topic.


Total pilot furloughs to be less than projected

The company had initially projected last September that a total of 936 CO pilots would be furloughed. A faster than expected return of passengers last Fall has allowed the company to reduce the 936 furloughs to
only 539 positions. One-hundred of these furloughs will occur this Spring as a result of the new Summer 2002 schedule.

The new Summer 2002 schedule no longer includes a second daily Tel Aviv (TLV) flight due to ongoing Middle East tensions. It also contains selected day-of-week cancellations in certain markets that continue to under perform.

While the company has offered Leave of Absences (COLAS), voluntary reduced flying and early retirements, it has not had nearly enough pilot participants in these programs to offset furloughs. Other work groups had a much higher participation in these programs.

"While we regret having to take this painful step, it is the right thing to do given the continued poor performance in certain markets," said Capt. Fred Abbott, vice-president of Flight Operations. "We look
forward to bringing all of our pilots back when market conditions permit."



User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Tango-Bravo, get a little grip on reality, will you? If the company says no furloughs are expected, then economic conditions later warrent them, isn't it better to do the financially sound thing, and furlough people, instead of worrying about someone like Ramper@IAH yelling that the company LIED to the pilots? After all, if any company puts itself into an economic straight-jacket by guaranteeing no more furloughs, then it will harm the company down the road.

Obviously CO felt no more furloughs would be necessary. And obviously business conditions right now warrent more furloughs. But as you've seen from my above post, the furloughs are actually LESS overall than the company had envisioned after 9-11. Now, who's doing the lying? CO, or the author of this thread?


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2329 times:

Artsyman and Alpha 1,

Both of you can listen, or read the DNU well. What you you and other employees are unaware of is the fact that the company made the decision to furlough 100 more at the last minute without allowing the pilot group to work with them in the way of pay cuts, decreased flying etc. They didn't even send anyone with the ability to make decisions to the meeting with the pilot union. In December they told us almost bragging that there would be no more furloughes in 2002. They did put in a disclamer baring any further drastic change in the airline industry. Okay, here we are with our stock price climbing and the company bragging about being profitable in the 2nd quarter and low and behold, without any notice they inform the union that they will be furloughing another 100 effective the end of March. The union asks if they can defer some furloughes by working together in other ways and the company says no. Then to top it all off they put the DNU out telling the other employee groups that the pilot group is actually not being furloughed as far as expected. The initial numbers were always worst case anyway, even the company admitted to this. They put a spin on the whole thing which obviously worked in that you believe their side of the story. They have rejected every idea the pilot group has had to reduce the number of pilots on furlough. We currently have the largest percentage of pilots on furlough and we were operating with the leanest number of pilots before 9/11. Most of the agents etc have been brought back but pilots, no. I've always trusted the DNU and read weekly but if you want to here the other side of this story I suggest you visit www.calforums.com. I've never seen a pilot group as angered by propaganda as much as they are now. They are attempting to divide the employees and point the finger at the pilots who will be under negotiations in the next year or two. Just remember there really are two sides to this story.



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

IAHERJ,
As I am not in the Pilots Union or group, I am not in a position to confirm your reports, but from the people I know, what you are saying doesn't seem to be entirely true. As you are a respected reader / contributor to this forum, I will take what you say as being your understanding of whats going on, and whatever the case, losing your job cannot be fun whether it is expected or not. As far as negotiating for deals other than furloughs, I think Gordon made it quite clear that no pay cuts were going to take place as he felt it better to avoid that route due to past issues.

I wish you well

Jer


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Artsyman,
I thank you for your reply. I do hope you know that the pilots only wanted pay concessions from their own. We never wanted any other group to give up anything for the sake of us. We just wanted to give up line values etc of our own to keep more pilots employed. We were shot down. The company did an excellent job of putting a positive spin on the subject in the DNU. I really hope you and Alpha1 check out Calforums.com. I believe you will think I'm being pretty cool headed compared to some. It is a forum to vent, and vent they have over the last 2 days. We look at other major airlines that allow their pilots to work with management over pay cuts to save more pilots and it is a slap in the face when we are rejected so quickly by a management team we are/were so proud of. I hope all works out for the now over 500 pilots and the families that depend on their income over the next few years. It is not as easy for a pilot with years invested into the career to just take a COLA and the company knows this. Why they chose to bring it up in a way that paints the pilots as non participants is beyond me.

Hopefully in a year or two this whole mess will be just a faint memory for all employees. It's going to get worse before it gets better with the upcomming events of 2002/2003 but I hope we as a company can pull through and not beat each other up.
IAHERJ



Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 24, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2198 times:

I received another news alert tonight about this incident, it appears that there are a lot of unhappy people about this. I hope as you said, that it all gets smoothed out again, unhappy pilots isnt good for the airline.

keep well

Jeremy


25 Alpha 1 : It's going to get worse before it gets better with the upcomming events of 2002/2003.... And just what "events" are these, IAHERJ? Sounds like a veile
26 Artsyman : I just wanted to add something to this thread, in the title, it says that Continental are parking two 777's for 2002. This is a slightly misleading ti
27 IAHERJ : You are right Artsyman. Sorry if I sounded missleading. And Alpha 1, no threats at all from me. I'm just a pessimistic person I guess and think this t
28 Artsyman : IAHERJ, I was in no way implying that you were misleading people, just that when I first read it I though that it meant that two of the 16 were being
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