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LH A300/310 Replacement  
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

Hi,

some time ago it was discussed if LH will buy 757s or A330s as replacement for their domestic/european widebody fleet of A300s and A310s ..

I think Airbus will make something like an a330Domestic as replacement ... it would be a huge loss for them if one of the most important airbus customers introduces the 757 in their fleet. After finishing the A340-600 and a318 programs their should be some free developers  Big grin

I'd love see an A330 in LH colors, but a 757 would also look good.

What do you all think ?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline777-200 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1020 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

The A330 would be cool


Another Day, Another Dollar.... Young Jeezy
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

The A330 would be too heavy. The 753 would be good, but i don't think they're in the market for narrowbodies.

User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3905 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1235 times:

This has been discussed over the last two or three days in the "LH 767" thread.

Both the Boeing 757-200ERX (for mid-hauls) and the Boeing 757-300 (for domestics) have been ruled out by LH. also the A330-500 (A330 shrink/light) as LH thinks the aircraft is "too heavy". Lufthansa is now leaning towards an Airbus A330-200 order to replace their own A340-200s and Condor's B767-300. This would leave them without a replacement for the A300/310 domestic/European routes. However, the A300s will probably soldier on for a couple of more years as LH has even added a second hand airframe last year (ex Emirates).


User currently offlineHkg_clk From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 999 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

Given the potential market for 767/A300/A310 replacement aircraft, why doesn't Airbus develop some new type for airlines? This could gain them lots of market share.


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User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1187 times:

maybe they will do after their current projects (A318, A340-600). What about the A300 fuselage and a smaller wing, maybe an updated A300 wing, or a shrinked A330 wing ? This should be what LH (and many others airlines i think) needs...

User currently offlineNfx From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

airbus has quite a lot of work to do with the a380, the a318 and the new a340s...

perhaps they don`t see a market for a/c filling the gap between the a321 and the a332...


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

The A300-600/A310 are still middle-aged at worst. LH would get a much bigger ROI simply by keeping them in service another 10 years minimum. There's no need to replace them anytime soon.

LH has a new emerging threat on its horizon: Ryanair at Hahn. Wanna bet Ryanair will be flying 100+ Euro flights/day from Hahn within 5 years....seriously eroding LH yield ex-FRA on many A300/A310 routes.

Now is not the time for fanciful A300/A310 replacement fantasies by LH.

IMHO.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKarliboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 254 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1143 times:

Good..i hope ryanair give LH a good run for their money...it's not good to have a monopoly in any region of business..unless you're the monopoliser!

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1143 times:

i doubt that ryanair will steal LH much of it's marketshare. Hahn is in the nowhere (ask 100 people in germany where "hahn" is and the 99 not aviation-interessted people will say "what the f*ck is hahn?") - it's not well connected to the train system, and it tooks you about 120 minutes with the train from frankfurt-city to hahn, while you need 5-10 minutes with the train from frankfurt city to FRA.



User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2582 posts, RR: 30
Reply 10, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1133 times:

Racko - do germans always answer questions using that kind of language?!

I thought only I did that!


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

If the market for such an aircraft is that big, why doesn't neither Boeing nor Airbus offer somthing for that market?

In my opinion, the market isn't really that big. So either stretch a narrowbody or shrink a widebody.

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1089 times:

The market does not appear to be that big. LH and SIA have indicated an interest in an A300/A310/767 but few other airlines.

Boeing and AI have offered the 771 and 335 but no airline was interested.

The 763 is still selling relatively well.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

Boeing has several planes offered in this market, the 757, 763, and 764. LH would be best off with a combined 757/767 order. The 764 can hold a little under 300 people in a domestic configuration, perfect for an A300 replacement. It's not as heavy as the A330 either. The 753, holding about 220-230 pax would be a perfect A310 replacement, but LH seems to not like narrowbodies. The 753 would be a cash cow for them though. Look at CO and NW. Their 753's will be raking in cash on high-density domestic flights, however, LH seems to be stubborn about only ordering Airbuses. The A330-200 would be a bad choice, as it is way too heavy.

User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1090 times:

Pre September 11th, LH could still afford to shun the economically more viable 757-300 because she´s not a widebody - can they still do that in today´s changed environment? On the other hand, for exactly the same reason any plans for a new plane which isn´t absolutely necessary would be shelved I guess.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1034 times:

LH can't operate B757's for one reason: this will cost them more. LH's fleet is made of an almost all airbus fleet. That's why they will be looking for an Airbus replacement for the A300/A310 fleet. I've heared that Airbus is developing an A330-100 that will look much similar to the A300 but with A330 wings. Airbus should rest assured by now, knowing that LH is a loyal customer: they have picked the A380 as well!


A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1018 times:

A 331 will be much more expensive to operate than a 753....the commonality with the rest of the AI fleet will not make up the difference.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1014 times:

Do you hava an idea why whould be so expensive??


A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4150 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1012 times:

The A331 would be too heavy for the routes thus the direct operating costs increase. however a small B757-300 fleet isn´t economical for LH either, they need a minimum of 12-15 planes to introduce a new type.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 986 times:

Even if LH is not the 100% shareholder in Condor anymore, the the five LH units´ (mainline, CityLine, Cargo, Condor, CondorBerlin) fleets can still be regarded as a whole - and Condor operates a substantial 757 fleet, 13 of them -300 series.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineTom_eddf From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 991 times:

Lufthansa refuses to buy the 335 because it's too heavy for their needs, please keep in mind the the 335 offers even more range than the 332 and will therefore be more an entry level long range a/c than a suitable commuter aircraft in the way LH uses the 300 today.

I don't see LH buying any 767 or 757 aircraft in the future because there is no or little (condor) commonality with existing aircraft and the fleet of 767s and 757s would be to small to make such a deal viable.

The 753 won't also be a cash cow for LH because it is not able to load as much cargo as a widebody, especially the A300, and the turn around times on short haul operations would be to long. Also LH travellers prefer widebody aircraft. Even the cabin of their A320s is wider than that of the 753.

Rumors say LH will buy some A330-200s to replace the 342s and A300-600Rs currently used on flights to africa and the middle east, maybe Condor will participate in that deal to replace their 767-300s.

IMHO, AI should update the existing A300-600 frame with new materials, an improved wing and engines and a fbw cockpit. The A310-300 should be discontinued.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 960 times:

I think we may see serious consideration by Airbus in a few years for a A300B variant that uses the fuselage of the A300B4-600R but with new engines, an all-new low-drag wing, FBW controls and A330 cockpit.

The plane could become surprisingly popular, especially since I see many current A300B4 and A300-600 operators wanting this plane.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 950 times:

There haven't been any new orders for the A310 for about five years now (last one delivered in 98) , so it's status is more or less discontinued...

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (12 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 943 times:

well, there was a lighter version of the A330-100 (or -500) which was not as heavy as the longrange derivative, however, certainly still heavier than the 757.
but there are additional reasons, which still make the A330 unsuitable for LH´s shorthaul needs.
the turnaround time should not be a problem since LH turn around the 753 on lease within one hour, and DE manages to do this all the time.
but the A330 is not only too heavy, its wingspan is far too great. it would only fit on gate positions designed for the A330/340s and 777s and 747s, thus occupying more space than a 757, 767 or A300. and that is definitively a problem on shorthauls, when also smaller airports with less capacity are served, and airports as congested as FRA and LHR.

cheers
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
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