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767-400: Is There A Future?  
User currently offlineRj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but CO and Delta are the only two buyers of the 767-400. Does this bird have a future?



35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirplanetire From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Continental and Delta are the only buyers of the 764 I'm pretty sure. As for it's future, on these forums I haven't heard good things.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

The 764 is built on the same line as the 762/763. It will be offered as long as the 763.

Don't forget....the first CO 762 in 2000 was the 1st one built since 96.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRJ_Delta From Chile, joined Oct 2000, 1945 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Hi:

I think that Kenya Airways has ordered 2 767-400ER for 2003. to start to fly on long haul routes.

In my opinion new airlines would order the 764 in this year or the next.

Best Regards,
RJ_Delta.


User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

Yes, those are the three airlines that have orders/ options for the 764. Kenya Airways wont be buying more than 2 or 3 I dont imagine and Delta has all but three of theirs that are currently scheduled for deliver although I think they have some options. Continental still has 10 yet to be delivered.

User currently offline2cn From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Delta is getting two more of their 764s this month.. which if they are only getting one more, leaves one more to come... I hope they get more of the planes.

User currently offlineThumper From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1893 times:

Don't know for sure but I sure hope so! Have flown Delta's 764 quite a few times and it is a great aircraft! I like it much better than the 763!

User currently offlineTullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1883 times:

I thought Kenya had converted to 763s following the cancellation of the 764ERX.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,310,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,AT
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Kenya still has 3 764's on order. Upon delivery, their 763's will move to regional service.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTP313 From Portugal, joined Nov 2001, 260 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

What puzzles me is the reason why boeing went for the 764
instead of developing a 777-100?
When we compare the technical specs of the 764 to the
Airbus 332 this one comes ahead in all fields. The only
reason one would choose the 764 would be fleet commonality.
But if Boeing had developed the 777-100 it would
have by now a product superior to the Airbus.
Seems to me that these days Boeing is run by cost accountants
and PR executives instead of engineers...


User currently offlineJer32382 From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

Here's my 2 cents worth. I don't really see the need for the 767-400 now that we have the 777-200 and 300. I agree with those who think a 100 derivative for the 777 should have been developed. In my opinion Boeing would be better off scrapping the 67-400 and going after a medium haul 777. Just my thought.

User currently offlineContinentalFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

A shortened 777 would be heavier and less efficient (e.g. more expensive to run) than a stretched 767 (see also the hypothetical A330-500 as another example). As it is, the 764 is the perfect DC-10/L-1011 replacement if you want to stay w/ Boeing. Also also pointed out previously, the 767 assembly line can turn out any variant basically on demand, so there's much less chance of the 764 being a potential orphan like the 717.

Mike.


User currently offlineGmonney From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2159 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

I agree, go with the fresh thinking of the 777, not this drawn out old 67 crap, no offence, but people want new and improved.

Grant




Drive it like you stole it!
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2903 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1765 times:
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but people want new and improved.

I guess I was dreaming then when I read about the 764s improved cockpit, cabin, wing, more use of composites, etc...

One of the beauties of the 764 is that Boeing doesn't have to sell a lot of them to come out ahead. Making a new product from existing facilities is a pretty compelling bargain.


User currently offlineLindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3131 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1756 times:
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Boeing is reported to be studying development and market potential of a 763NG. I think this could be a money maker for Boeing if the product is a good one.

User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

One thing to note about the 764, as far as Delta goes is that the 764 has less range than either the MD-11, 763ER or the 777-200ER so this a/c cannot replace the MD-11 or fly the long haul routes that the 763, 777 and MD-11 can. Perhaps this will be addressed but I would say that the 764 with this particular characteristic would put it out of consideration as a replacement for the MD-11 and not even able to compete with an A330.

User currently offlineContinentalFan From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

Woodsboy,

Delta uses the 764 for high-capacity domestic routes only, so the range is not a big deal. The cabins are also configured for domestic use. It was not meant to replace the MD-11 @ Delta (the 777 does that), it was meant to replace the L-1011, which often flew high density routes like ATL-MCO.

As for competing with the A330, it comes close in range (of course it's less), but I don't think it was meant to really compete with it anyways. IMO, the A330 slots somewhere between the 767 and 777 in size/range.

Mike.


User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

I do realize that at Delta the 764 was meant to replace the L-1011, but to add a type that has what seems to be limited usefullness (unable to stand in on long routes that the 763, MD-11 and 777 fly), I wonder why the 764 was choosen. It seems like more 777s would have done the trick and been able to fly other long range routes without adding another type to the stable.

Perhaps its due to the pilot contract issues Delta has had with the 777 (and the reason why they only have 8 in the fleet right now) or a real sweetheart deal from Boeing, who knows.

On your other point, that the 764 was not meant to compete with the A330; If this is true, then that would seem to be a totally insane decision by Boeing to produce an aircraft of the same size and capacity that cant meet the long range of the A330, automatically takes it out of the running.

With all this said, it looks like the MD-11 is really the best long haul type for Delta and they will still be around for 6-8 more years.....


User currently offline2cn From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

WoodsBoy- the 777 would not have been a better choice over the 764, since they still wouldnt have been able to fill in for the others on the Europe routes. They would've still had them equiped in the domestic config- firstclass and coach- and no BizElite since they are flown on high traffic markets. In the current config on the 764, it seats 10 more people then the 777. Delta did not want the BizElite on the routes, which was why the ATL-HNL was ended when it came down to the pilots wanted the BizElite seats for their crew rest seats. Delta did not want to waste the space.

The issue with the pilots and the 777 has been resolved, and they are taking more deliveries of the 777-one to come this month and go directly to GSO for the mods.

And no, the MD11 is not the best long haul plane for Delta. Delta is very unhappy with the performance of this plane, which is why they are getting rid of it so early into the planes' life.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

I was at Ft Lauderdale recently and saw numerous Delta 764s. For one, its a beautiful plane, but it also appears that Delta are using it extensively on high density, leisure routes to Florida so who cares if it has less range than a 777-200. As far as its primary customers are concerned, the aircraft is doing what they want it to do.

User currently offline2cn From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1613 times:

Jay- yes, that is exactly what Delta is using it for- high density, domestic leisure routes and high density international leisure routes to Mexico and South America.... where the range factor isnt a problem, since it isnt meant to go over to Europe at all, which is where the range would be a problem.

User currently offlineRedeye From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Seems like this plane makes sense for Delta, which uses it for domestic/short leisure routes. But what about Continental? Wasn't the 764 intended to be a lower capacity alternative to the 777 on international routes? If the 764 has range issues, then it doesn't seem like the best plane for future IAH European expansion for routes that can't support 777 capacity. I'd be a little disappointed to see the 762 making up the majority of future European flights from IAH when E is finished. (Although I'd still welcome the expansion!)

User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a hypothetical BizElite + economy configuration similar to CO's 767-400s, wouldn't DL have the option of operating the -400 to Europe if desired, especially from CVG or JFK?

User currently offlineMikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

ummmmm Lets set a couple of facts straight here!

1) 7008 is NOT going to GSO for any modifications. The ship is delivering from the facotry in a 3-3-3 E/C config but will NOT have the overhead crew rests. The F/A's will sit in the back and the pilot will sit in BusElite.

2) The 764 does NOT fly to Latin or South America. It flies to HNL, SFO, LAX, SLC, FLL, MCO, TPA?, ATL, and LGA.

3) The 764 has a range 500nm less than that of the 763.

4) The 764 in its current config does not meet the ALPA crew rest policy. For that matter, none of the DL A/C except 7002 (when it re-enters service) will. The 764 will eventually be put back on ATL-HNL service once DL incorporates an ALPA approved crew rest in a domestically configured A/C.

CF-CPI...your hypotehtical situation is correct.



User currently offlineMikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1545 times:

DL is not getting rid of the MD-11. It has tried, but to opt out of its lease commitments would be too costly. Performance and maintenance issues are problems but DL will be keeping the MD-11 for a good 6-9 years. 813 was just painted in new colors!

25 2cn : 1) 7008 is NOT going to GSO for any modifications. The ship is delivering from the facotry in a 3-3-3 E/C config but will NOT have the overhead crew r
26 TOMASKEMPNER : 764 is Boeing´s rival for the beautiful A332. I think we all know who is the winner here. Besides I think that the 764 is quite a failure, becuase al
27 Scottb : tomaskempner must be smoking something if he believes that Boeing spent billions to develop the 767-400. The bottom line is that it didn't cost Boeing
28 Spaceman : I think the A340-500/600 program has secured more than 50 aircraft orders.
29 Steman : hello, I think that the 767-400 has a big development potential. If Boeing will be able to offer a longer range variant, let's say with the same range
30 2cn : According to the Boeing website, the 764 has a range of 5,645 miles.. can fly between London-Tokyo, Newark- Moscow, and Chicago-Warsaw, and as evident
31 RayChuang : I think we may see a pickup of orders for the 767-400ER in a few years, mostly because of the heavy parts commonality with the other 767 models. One i
32 Mikeymike : 2CN....7008 is not going to GSO and the 764 has never been slated for Latin America....not to say that there hasn't been rumors..... I believe the 764
33 Steman : I have just read in this month's issue of Air International that one point that kept Boeing from developing a longer range 767-400 is its limited crui
34 Boeing767-300 : I seem to remember the 757 only had two orders at launch, namely british Airways and Eastern(the good old days). Next thing you know, nearly everbody
35 JAL : The 767-400 is a good aircraft it will eventually find more customers given more time.
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