TOMASKEMPNER From Mexico, joined May 2001, 389 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3220 times:
Although DL has kind of a hub at DFW it wasn´t enough to feed AF flght, besides when they stopped it they still codeshared with CO at IAH.
I also wondered how is LH´s DFW-FRA flight doing, considering there is no big STAR presence at DFW, but they´ve been flying that route for decades, before the flight was : MEX-DFW-FRA on a 744. Today MEX got the 744 and DFW get a 343
Mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31773 posts, RR: 73 Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3201 times:
DFW is a huge city. They can support the FRA flights easily. CDG is a little different of a market. The largest city in Europe, yes, but it's ties to the North America are much more limited to some local areas - like New York, South Florida, and Quebec. Also more of a leisure market, and, yes, as also stated, it is hard to compete against AA and thier popular DFW-CDG service. My guess is yields were low, because all the business travelers were flying American.
AirFranceJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3175 times:
Mah4546- Quite often, people think of Air France as Paris and Paris alone. The truth is, Paris-CDG is a transit airport, and 50%-60% of every AF flight is usually interline traffic connecting through CDG and going on to airports such as DFW, so it was fair mix of passengers coming from Germany, Italy, France etc.
The other misconception is that business travel was not good. AF I think stands out above other airlines in its ability to fill First and Business (L'Espace Primiere & Affaires) class, but have a half empty Economy class (Tempo) as was the case in DFW.
The bottom line was that load factors averaged 40%-50% at best over all, and it was agreed that the direct flight would be dropped in favor of a CDG-ATL service, that would feed fellow Skyteam member, Delta's hub, which in turn would operate ATL-DFW.
Padcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3152 times:
Cut your crap. Always the AA bias.
For your info AF dominates CDG much more than AA dominates DFW. They had just as much business travel as AA had, most likely more. Since the majority if the Alcatel business went on AF. AF also had DL to help them out with connecting markets. AA sure did not have this advantage in Paris. Also, AA went around begging for cargo, while AF stuffed the lower deck every single day.
Mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31773 posts, RR: 73 Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3144 times:
Padcrasher, I have no AA bias. I personally love AF, and do fly AF over AA when I fly MIA-CDG. AF has a far supeior product to AA trans-Atlantic. But the FACT is that DFW is dominated by AA. Traffic on US-France, unlike other US-Europe markets, is more dependent on US originated passengers than Europe originating passengers. AF could not compete against AA and in a time when trans-Atlantic travel is falling, it just was not profitable to keep the route.
Lt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3131 times:
all around the airport at DFW there were AF signs up the last few months. Everytime I went down there I would see them. It had the 'half a face' of French woman with the DFW -Paris nonstop and the plane picture. I'd have to agree with MAH though, AA is huge at DFW and so many folks connect in to DFW to fly to Europe from the small towns of the south and midwest (like they do at Houston, and Miami and Atlanta too) but AA is such a big player at DFW in that respect
Blink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5455 posts, RR: 18 Reply 10, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
Unfortunately, this is a result of American becoming huge at DFW.
If AA didn't have such a stranglehold, AF might have been able to do better. But when, AF is competing against an airline with 70% of their flights out of that airport, it is hard to compete(not just AF, any airline for that matter)
I am amazed that Korean Air and Lufthansa have been able to compete out of DFW.
I think Lufthansa due to the fact that they started DFW before American developed it. With Korean Air, I think it is because the DFW-Asia market doesn't have a lot of competition at all.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
Nonrevman From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1289 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
I think you are on to something concerning the marketing. There are people who work for Delta in DFW that did not even realize that there was an Air France flight going nonstop to Paris. There were not any local ads for it that I saw either.
Of course, the post 9-11 world and the light winter travel season probably took its toll too. Maybe, they can come back to DFW at some point.
Lt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3094 times:
Oh I know Houston is the Energy Capital of the World, I'm from Houston. I was just meaning to compare the Hub airports with major single airline dominance and how they seem to keep the intl services that DFW lost.
Maybe I should have been more clear, that is just my opinion I haven't seen any numbers on the load factors for these INTL flights.
Mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31773 posts, RR: 73 Reply 15, posted (11 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3093 times:
Yes, but look at BA, AF, and LH at ATL. BA tried double-daily, failed. LH is 6x a week, and on thier smallest trans-Atlantic aircraft, an A340-200. AF has the DL codeshares. Also keep in mind, Swissair and KLM dropped ATL this past September. Varig didn't survive either. Austrian left, so did Sabena. Compare the selection of international airlines at major hubs like ATL, IAH, DTW, and DFW to cities with smaller "specialty" hubs, like MIA and SFO, or no hubs, like BOS, and it's dissapointing.
Houston: BA, KL, LH, AF
Dallas: BA, LH
Atlanta: BA, LH, AF
Detroit: BA, LH
Denver: BA, LH
Philadelphia: BA, LH, AF
*CVG: Spring 2002; DEN: bmi service planned in future
Los Angeles: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL, SR, AZ, IW, LY, EI
San Francisco: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL
Miami: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, AZ, LY, LT, KL/NW, MP
Boston: BA, LH, AF, VS, AZ, KL/NW, FI, EI
Washington: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, KL/NW, ET, BM, OS, SK
*LAX: LT service seasonal; SFO: AZ service currently suspended indefinitley; SAS service postponed; MIA: TK and OS service currently suspended indefinitley, bmi service planned in future
Newark and Chicago fortress hubs are the exceptions thanks to the huge size of both.
Blink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5455 posts, RR: 18 Reply 16, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
I did forget to mention marketing also. I never saw ANY signs at DFW other than the airline/terminal signs advertising Air France service, same story with the local media. No commercials, no ads, absolutely nothing.
I only knew about AF starting dallas via airliners.net
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
Meister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2978 times:
Yeah.. I would have to agree about the lack of advertising on AFs part. It is really believable to me, b/c I live near CVG, and I heard about twice that AF was doing the CVG-CDG service. Next to nobody even knew that is was happening.
Of course, CVG is primarily a connection airport, and AF was filling it's 742 every single day, but it is still a good idea to push the flight.
Then Comair stopped flying for 2.5 months, and AF was seeing empty planes. They suspended the flight indefinitely, and now there is a market again. I think CVG really has a market as a sort of alternate ORD for DL flights, and can benefit from international carriers as such.
PS-does anyone know if AF has plans to restart it's CVG-CDG nonstop?
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
AirFranceJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 476 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2975 times:
Unfortunately, the U.S. market has taken a back seat to AF's expansion in Africa. The truth of the matter is, with the dissolution of Sabena, AF has been increasing routes throughout Africa, and after many years, re-starting Paris-Kinshasha, the crown jewel of Sabena's once famous African empire.
AF does not have a habit of dropping routes (and worse yet, laying off employees) and I believe once the market improves, they will most surely return to airports such as CVG and DFW. However, I also know that their cooperation with Delta has grown tremendously, to the point where it might simply be easier to have DL feed the AF flights, or operate a code share direct to Paris.
Strickerje From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 723 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (11 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2965 times:
According to AF's timetable, the CVG-CDG route will return with a 763. Since they used to be able to fill 742's on that route, and, after that, A340's, is there any chance that route may get a larger aircraft type before, say, June 10?