Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW?  
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

I was surprised to hear that Air France stopped serving Dallas/Ft. Worth (DFW) from Paris (CDG).

What exactly was the reason? I am sure there is plenty of demand for a non-stop CDG-DFW flight. Was it too much competition from American Airline's 777 flight?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTOMASKEMPNER From Mexico, joined May 2001, 389 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

Although DL has kind of a hub at DFW it wasn´t enough to feed AF flght, besides when they stopped it they still codeshared with CO at IAH.

I also wondered how is LH´s DFW-FRA flight doing, considering there is no big STAR presence at DFW, but they´ve been flying that route for decades, before the flight was : MEX-DFW-FRA on a 744. Today MEX got the 744 and DFW get a 343


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32730 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

DFW is a huge city. They can support the FRA flights easily. CDG is a little different of a market. The largest city in Europe, yes, but it's ties to the North America are much more limited to some local areas - like New York, South Florida, and Quebec. Also more of a leisure market, and, yes, as also stated, it is hard to compete against AA and thier popular DFW-CDG service. My guess is yields were low, because all the business travelers were flying American.


a.
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3936 times:

Thanks for the replies.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAirFranceJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Mah4546- Quite often, people think of Air France as Paris and Paris alone. The truth is, Paris-CDG is a transit airport, and 50%-60% of every AF flight is usually interline traffic connecting through CDG and going on to airports such as DFW, so it was fair mix of passengers coming from Germany, Italy, France etc.

The other misconception is that business travel was not good. AF I think stands out above other airlines in its ability to fill First and Business (L'Espace Primiere & Affaires) class, but have a half empty Economy class (Tempo) as was the case in DFW.

The bottom line was that load factors averaged 40%-50% at best over all, and it was agreed that the direct flight would be dropped in favor of a CDG-ATL service, that would feed fellow Skyteam member, Delta's hub, which in turn would operate ATL-DFW.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Also Gentlemen

Alcatel the French Telecom company cut their DFW operation. This took away the largest coporate customer between the two cities.

AA will barely make a profit on this route even now.


User currently offlineZeus01 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

It seems like a lot of airlines are having probelms with THier US CDG routs from the Midwest and west. NW will be dropping htier CDG route for a few months.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

Mah4546

Cut your crap. Always the AA bias.

For your info AF dominates CDG much more than AA dominates DFW. They had just as much business travel as AA had, most likely more. Since the majority if the Alcatel business went on AF. AF also had DL to help them out with connecting markets. AA sure did not have this advantage in Paris. Also, AA went around begging for cargo, while AF stuffed the lower deck every single day.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32730 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3909 times:

Padcrasher, I have no AA bias. I personally love AF, and do fly AF over AA when I fly MIA-CDG. AF has a far supeior product to AA trans-Atlantic. But the FACT is that DFW is dominated by AA. Traffic on US-France, unlike other US-Europe markets, is more dependent on US originated passengers than Europe originating passengers. AF could not compete against AA and in a time when trans-Atlantic travel is falling, it just was not profitable to keep the route.


a.
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

all around the airport at DFW there were AF signs up the last few months. Everytime I went down there I would see them. It had the 'half a face' of French woman with the DFW -Paris nonstop and the plane picture. I'd have to agree with MAH though, AA is huge at DFW and so many folks connect in to DFW to fly to Europe from the small towns of the south and midwest (like they do at Houston, and Miami and Atlanta too) but AA is such a big player at DFW in that respect

User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Unfortunately, this is a result of American becoming huge at DFW.

If AA didn't have such a stranglehold, AF might have been able to do better. But when, AF is competing against an airline with 70% of their flights out of that airport, it is hard to compete(not just AF, any airline for that matter)

I am amazed that Korean Air and Lufthansa have been able to compete out of DFW.
I think Lufthansa due to the fact that they started DFW before American developed it. With Korean Air, I think it is because the DFW-Asia market doesn't have a lot of competition at all.

blink



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

doesn't that seem a little unique to DFW though. Look at Continental in Houston or Delta in Atlanta.

CO in Houston is huge, as their home hub with a high % of trafic, but BA, AF, and Luft (and KLM codeshared w/CO) all fly them as well.

Basically the same at Atlanta via Delta

????

IMO it is more an American Airlines marketing thing in the local region.


User currently offlineNonrevman From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1297 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

I think you are on to something concerning the marketing. There are people who work for Delta in DFW that did not even realize that there was an Air France flight going nonstop to Paris. There were not any local ads for it that I saw either.

Of course, the post 9-11 world and the light winter travel season probably took its toll too. Maybe, they can come back to DFW at some point.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Houston is the energy services capital of the World.
Much bigger demand for Intl travel...Schlumberger, Halliburton, Enron (rip), Oil drilling, Bechtel, etc. This is the reason for many Intl choices.

It's no party competing with AA in DFW but AF dominates CDG even more so.


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Oh I know Houston is the Energy Capital of the World, I'm from Houston. I was just meaning to compare the Hub airports with major single airline dominance and how they seem to keep the intl services that DFW lost.
Maybe I should have been more clear, that is just my opinion I haven't seen any numbers on the load factors for these INTL flights.


User currently offlineMah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32730 posts, RR: 72
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Yes, but look at BA, AF, and LH at ATL. BA tried double-daily, failed. LH is 6x a week, and on thier smallest trans-Atlantic aircraft, an A340-200. AF has the DL codeshares. Also keep in mind, Swissair and KLM dropped ATL this past September. Varig didn't survive either. Austrian left, so did Sabena. Compare the selection of international airlines at major hubs like ATL, IAH, DTW, and DFW to cities with smaller "specialty" hubs, like MIA and SFO, or no hubs, like BOS, and it's dissapointing.

Houston: BA, KL, LH, AF
Dallas: BA, LH
Atlanta: BA, LH, AF
Minneapolis: FI
Detroit: BA, LH
Cinncinatti: AF*
Denver: BA, LH
Philadelphia: BA, LH, AF
Pittsburgh: None
Charlotte: BA

*CVG: Spring 2002; DEN: bmi service planned in future

Los Angeles: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL, SR, AZ, IW, LY, EI
San Francisco: BA, LH, AF, SU, VS, KL
Miami: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, AZ, LY, LT, KL/NW, MP
Boston: BA, LH, AF, VS, AZ, KL/NW, FI, EI
Washington: BA, LH, AF, IB, VS, KL/NW, ET, BM, OS, SK

*LAX: LT service seasonal; SFO: AZ service currently suspended indefinitley; SAS service postponed; MIA: TK and OS service currently suspended indefinitley, bmi service planned in future

Newark and Chicago fortress hubs are the exceptions thanks to the huge size of both.



a.
User currently offlineBlink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3800 times:

I did forget to mention marketing also. I never saw ANY signs at DFW other than the airline/terminal signs advertising Air France service, same story with the local media. No commercials, no ads, absolutely nothing.

I only knew about AF starting dallas via airliners.net

rgds,
blink182



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3791 times:

well as I said a few posts earlier there were signs for Air France around DFW. I saw several just two weeks ago. ON 635 and 121

User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3769 times:

I wonder how this action by AF will change there views about serving the US.

They'd like to serve DEN within the next 2 to 3 years, and possibily PHX aswell.

BA has been the most optimistic. We all know, they serve more cities in the US than any other airline from Europe. Lufthansa is next, and then I think Air France.

Mah4546,

Yes, BMI wants to serve Denver from LHR, but that doesn't look like its going to happen anytime soon. The Bermuda II looks like its here to stay as is for quite a while unfortunately.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

I'd think that all airlines would put up advertisements all over the airports.

When BA started serving Denver, they put ADs all over the main terminal and Concourse A (the concourse they serve out of).

When Lufthansa started, they put these posters all over Concourse A (the concourse they serve out of) and Concourse B (United's concourse).

When United started there seasonal FRA-DEN flight, they also put ADs all over Concourse B and Concourse A.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineMeister808 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 973 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Yeah.. I would have to agree about the lack of advertising on AFs part. It is really believable to me, b/c I live near CVG, and I heard about twice that AF was doing the CVG-CDG service. Next to nobody even knew that is was happening.

Of course, CVG is primarily a connection airport, and AF was filling it's 742 every single day, but it is still a good idea to push the flight.

Then Comair stopped flying for 2.5 months, and AF was seeing empty planes. They suspended the flight indefinitely, and now there is a market again. I think CVG really has a market as a sort of alternate ORD for DL flights, and can benefit from international carriers as such.

-Meister

PS-does anyone know if AF has plans to restart it's CVG-CDG nonstop?



Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Meister808,

Air France will restart CVG-CDG this March.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAirFranceJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Unfortunately, the U.S. market has taken a back seat to AF's expansion in Africa. The truth of the matter is, with the dissolution of Sabena, AF has been increasing routes throughout Africa, and after many years, re-starting Paris-Kinshasha, the crown jewel of Sabena's once famous African empire.

AF does not have a habit of dropping routes (and worse yet, laying off employees) and I believe once the market improves, they will most surely return to airports such as CVG and DFW. However, I also know that their cooperation with Delta has grown tremendously, to the point where it might simply be easier to have DL feed the AF flights, or operate a code share direct to Paris.


User currently offlineStrickerje From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 723 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

According to AF's timetable, the CVG-CDG route will return with a 763. Since they used to be able to fill 742's on that route, and, after that, A340's, is there any chance that route may get a larger aircraft type before, say, June 10?  Smile

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

When did Air France stop this service? I was in DFW on Jan. 4 and they still had an A340 heading for Paris. I think they left out of E37.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
25 Ti717 : Stopped Jan 7.
26 Us330 : The reasoning I had heard was that, following Sabena's demise and the void left in Africa, AF realized it had a better chance of making a profit by in
27 Post contains links and images Baec777 : In Nov 2001, I heard Air France has already withdrew out of DFW on Jan 7/02; and I am saying to MAH4546 that DFW also has Korean Airlines already serv
28 Mah4546 : baec, I know KE serves DFW. My list was European carriers.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Did Air France Stop CDG-DFW? posted Thu Jan 17 2002 02:56:41 by BA
Why Did Air France Cheat? posted Wed Jan 28 2004 14:47:59 by Andrewtang
Why Did Air Tran Stop PHL-PIT. posted Wed Dec 10 2003 02:31:56 by Decman
Why Did Air Jamaica Stop Flying To Yyz? posted Fri Feb 16 2001 01:02:02 by BaliMorris
Why Did AA FLT 79 LGW-DFW Stop In BGR Today? posted Tue Apr 6 2004 22:29:12 by Pwm2txlhopper
Did Air France Start Service To DFW Yet? posted Fri May 4 2001 15:35:34 by N757tw
Did Air France Serve Bahrain? posted Sun Oct 22 2006 17:23:56 by 777way
Air France JNB-CDG Availability posted Mon May 29 2006 01:08:35 by Myt332
Air France JFK-CDG Winter Service posted Wed Sep 14 2005 00:14:40 by Hughw
Why Did AI144 Make A Stop In London posted Sat Jan 15 2005 12:56:31 by Airish