762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 540 posts, RR: 1 Posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1324 times:
It seems like there has been a lot of talk and commotion involving crew rest issues on Hawaii routes in the past year or so. Delta cancelled the ATL-HNL nonstop with the retirement of the L1011 while United cancelled the ORD-HNL nonstop with the DC-10 retirement all because of crew rest issues with the 767. The Continental EWR-HNL nonstop, however, was maintained after the DC-10 retirement with the 767-400ER. AA still operates ORD/DFW/STL-HNL/0GG with the 767-300ER even though these flights are well over 8hrs. Why was AA able to continue the ORD-HNL route while United wasn't? Was it because of different crew rest guidelines? Could somebody please explain to me the differences between crew rest guidelines on 767s for different airlines. I just got back from a trip to Maui on AA, PIT-STL-OGG and returned OGG-DFW-PIT and the 763s did not appear to be equipped with crew rest phacilities. I'm assuming they need atleast 3 pilots to make these trips. Does the third just sit in the jumpseat? I know at Delta the pilots refused to sit in the 764 first class for crew rest on the ATL-HNL route because the seats were not comfortable enough where as on the L1011 they were. What is the deal on crew rest with other airlines? Anybody with any info thanks a lot.
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7176 posts, RR: 8 Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1217 times:
I know that with UA's pilot union,there were differant rules due to ORD-HNL being considered a domestic route and the DC-10 being a 3-man crew. Apparently,a 3-man crew had differant rest rules than a 2-man crew.
'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 53 Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1130 times:
OK, here we go...
The regulations differ depending on the makup of the crew. Some airlines have additional restrictions in the pilot's contracts, but this is the strict FAA interpetation.
For a three man crew (two pilots and one additonal flight crewman) such as on the DC-10, you can fly up to 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours (moving window). Therefore, just about any flight to Hawaii from the east coast of the US can be flown by a basic 3 man crew without violating the rest requirements. And, after the normal 24 hour layover in the islands, they're ready to make the return trip home.
For a two man crew however (i.e. 767), they're only allowed 8 hours flight time in any 24. Therefore, if the flight is scheduled for more than 8 hours, they'll put on a third pilot, sometimes called a cruise pilot, to put them back into the three man rule above. The third pilot may ride in the cockpit jumpseat, or have a seat reserved for him in the cabin. That all depends again on the particular contract with the airline.
There are ways around the 8 hour rule, but it requires a rest period in the middle of the 8 hours equal to double the flight time up to that point. For instance: A two pilot 767 flight from Honolulu to the west coast leaves HNL in the late afternoon, arriving in the evening. The next morning they get up and fly back to HNL. They get back 24 hours after they left. Total flight time is 11 hours, and all within 24 hours. How did they do that? By putting rest in the middle of the flight time equal to double the flight time before the rest. So if they flew five and a half hours to the west coast, they'd need 11 hours rest before they left to return to HNL. This can rapidly turn into a scheduling nightmare if there are delays on departure from HNL. Is it cheaper to put a third man on a two pilot airplane? Or should the airline layover the pilots a day and a half on the west coast. That is a question best left to the accountants and the pilots union.
In the end, the reason the airlines mentioned in the original post gave up longer trips to HNL probably has more to do with economics of post-9/11 than crew rest requirements.
Hope this helps.
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1125 times:
HAL you are right on with your assesment of crew rest. Speaking in Deltas case, the L1011 had a three0man flight deck crew, so DL did not have to reserve a F/C seat for the pilot. (on the L10 it had nothing to do with F/C seat comfort). That being said, on the 764, woith it being a 2-man flight deck crew, it has everything to do with the D-ALPA made, ALPA crew rest policy. No where in the regs does it require an airline to forego a seat let alone a F/C seat to a pilot in the main cabin on 8-12 hour flights. The ALPA crew rest policy drives airlines to give pilots full flat secluded rest facilities on all flights requiring a relief pilot. In essence it drives airlines to give 12+ hour rest facilites on 8-12 hour segments. The regs require a bunk 76" x 30" x 27"? on aircraft that operate flights over 12+ hours.
For Delta, the 764 is a tricky issue because DL's 764s are a domestically configured aircraft. The fine line is getting D-ALPA to agree to something less thant the ALPA crew rest policy while getting network management and marketing to agree to something more than a single, un-altered F/C seat.
After all thats said and done, throw in a F?A crew rest in the back for 4 -5 F/A's, and you can see the potential revenue loss on a plane that only flies an 8+ hour flight 2% of its combined journeys.
CALpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 995 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1077 times:
At CO we use a "Business First" seat as our crew rest seat for pilots on all B767, and B757 flights that exceed 8hours. We have never had bunks for crew members on any airplane with the exception of the B777.
SEAHAL From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 31 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1057 times:
HAL, I talked with Capt. Hammer on a recent HNL-SEA flight and he said Hawaiian has a small pilot base in SEA. He said those pilots often fly Flight#21 SEA-HNL and Flight #22 HNL-SEA on the same day. Which means the flight out of SEA leaves at 8:50am with the return flight arriving at 9:30pm. Isn't that over the 12 hour rule for the 3 man DC-10 cockpit?
Penguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 975 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 976 times:
We talked with the crew on the AA flight Jan 1 and they were within guideline to to the LAX_KOA_LAX roundtrip on one duty. The flight attendants weren't too happy on my flight back to LAX. I think they were thankful that both ways it was a night flight.
Mikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 963 times:
For DL, and especial D-ALPA, its not the quality of the seats in F/C, but rather whether or not the rest facilities they recieve meets the D-ALPA made ALPA crew rest policy. We need to pay extremely close attention to this detail. This fact is the inherent political innuendo in the whole argument. Everything stems from the perceived quality of rest a pilot can get during his/her rest period. Again, as I stated above, the the ALPA crew rest policy does NOT distinguish between 8-12 block to block hour flights and 12+ hour flights. The policy believes that if you are mandated to take a rest period, a pilot deserves this type of facility to ensure adequate rest. It also doesn't differentiate between one 8-12 sector vs. another (i.e. ATL-HNL in a domestic config vs. an ATL-MUC in a international config) 8+ hours is stil 8+ hours.
To some extent, I agree that a F/C seat may not get you the rest that you deserve, but you can't single out the seat alone. Its the environment in which that seat is placed. If you took that very same seat and placed into a secluded wall-off portion of the cabin where you could eliminate any noise and lighting spikes, control the air temperature and get into a full flat position, then ofcourse, as it has been proven in NASA sleep depravation studies, the quality of your rest will be much better in the limited amount of time you have to sleep.
However, with all that being said, a first class seat is adequate if you compare it to what they used to get in a 3-man cockpit. Ofcourse I know that a three-man flightdeck requires less responsibility on a per-pilot basis.