Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Crew Rest Issues To Hawaii  
User currently offline762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 542 posts, RR: 1
Posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

It seems like there has been a lot of talk and commotion involving crew rest issues on Hawaii routes in the past year or so. Delta cancelled the ATL-HNL nonstop with the retirement of the L1011 while United cancelled the ORD-HNL nonstop with the DC-10 retirement all because of crew rest issues with the 767. The Continental EWR-HNL nonstop, however, was maintained after the DC-10 retirement with the 767-400ER. AA still operates ORD/DFW/STL-HNL/0GG with the 767-300ER even though these flights are well over 8hrs. Why was AA able to continue the ORD-HNL route while United wasn't? Was it because of different crew rest guidelines? Could somebody please explain to me the differences between crew rest guidelines on 767s for different airlines. I just got back from a trip to Maui on AA, PIT-STL-OGG and returned OGG-DFW-PIT and the 763s did not appear to be equipped with crew rest phacilities. I'm assuming they need atleast 3 pilots to make these trips. Does the third just sit in the jumpseat? I know at Delta the pilots refused to sit in the 764 first class for crew rest on the ATL-HNL route because the seats were not comfortable enough where as on the L1011 they were. What is the deal on crew rest with other airlines? Anybody with any info thanks a lot.

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLouisChenevert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

Delta does the ATL-HNL route with a 764 don't they?

User currently offlineUnited_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7496 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

I know that with UA's pilot union,there were differant rules due to ORD-HNL being considered a domestic route and the DC-10 being a 3-man crew. Apparently,a 3-man crew had differant rest rules than a 2-man crew.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offline762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

No, DL does not fly ATL-HNL nonstop anymore. They now fly SLC-HNL nonstop because SLC was the only DL hub airport less than 8 hrs from HNL.

User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

DL does a direct HNL-ATL flight #196. Departs HNL @ 1:50pm and arrives ATL @ 5:43am next day. Crew change in LAX

User currently offline762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

For DL flt. 196 passengers also deplane and new passengers board. Before it was just tech stop. Anybody with info about crew rest?

User currently offlineLouisChenevert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1691 times:

On CO IAH-HNL on the DC-10-30, they made crew rests out of canvas and a row of seats.

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

OK, here we go...
The regulations differ depending on the makup of the crew. Some airlines have additional restrictions in the pilot's contracts, but this is the strict FAA interpetation.

For a three man crew (two pilots and one additonal flight crewman) such as on the DC-10, you can fly up to 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours (moving window). Therefore, just about any flight to Hawaii from the east coast of the US can be flown by a basic 3 man crew without violating the rest requirements. And, after the normal 24 hour layover in the islands, they're ready to make the return trip home.

For a two man crew however (i.e. 767), they're only allowed 8 hours flight time in any 24. Therefore, if the flight is scheduled for more than 8 hours, they'll put on a third pilot, sometimes called a cruise pilot, to put them back into the three man rule above. The third pilot may ride in the cockpit jumpseat, or have a seat reserved for him in the cabin. That all depends again on the particular contract with the airline.

There are ways around the 8 hour rule, but it requires a rest period in the middle of the 8 hours equal to double the flight time up to that point. For instance: A two pilot 767 flight from Honolulu to the west coast leaves HNL in the late afternoon, arriving in the evening. The next morning they get up and fly back to HNL. They get back 24 hours after they left. Total flight time is 11 hours, and all within 24 hours. How did they do that? By putting rest in the middle of the flight time equal to double the flight time before the rest. So if they flew five and a half hours to the west coast, they'd need 11 hours rest before they left to return to HNL. This can rapidly turn into a scheduling nightmare if there are delays on departure from HNL. Is it cheaper to put a third man on a two pilot airplane? Or should the airline layover the pilots a day and a half on the west coast. That is a question best left to the accountants and the pilots union.

In the end, the reason the airlines mentioned in the original post gave up longer trips to HNL probably has more to do with economics of post-9/11 than crew rest requirements.

Hope this helps.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineMikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1683 times:

HAL you are right on with your assesment of crew rest. Speaking in Deltas case, the L1011 had a three0man flight deck crew, so DL did not have to reserve a F/C seat for the pilot. (on the L10 it had nothing to do with F/C seat comfort). That being said, on the 764, woith it being a 2-man flight deck crew, it has everything to do with the D-ALPA made, ALPA crew rest policy. No where in the regs does it require an airline to forego a seat let alone a F/C seat to a pilot in the main cabin on 8-12 hour flights. The ALPA crew rest policy drives airlines to give pilots full flat secluded rest facilities on all flights requiring a relief pilot. In essence it drives airlines to give 12+ hour rest facilites on 8-12 hour segments. The regs require a bunk 76" x 30" x 27"? on aircraft that operate flights over 12+ hours.

For Delta, the 764 is a tricky issue because DL's 764s are a domestically configured aircraft. The fine line is getting D-ALPA to agree to something less thant the ALPA crew rest policy while getting network management and marketing to agree to something more than a single, un-altered F/C seat.

After all thats said and done, throw in a F?A crew rest in the back for 4 -5 F/A's, and you can see the potential revenue loss on a plane that only flies an 8+ hour flight 2% of its combined journeys.


User currently offline762er From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1668 times:

Great info, Fellas! Keep it comin'. What is the deal with crew rest on Continental 764's to Hawaii from EWR especially?

User currently offlineUAL1837 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1671 times:

United is implementing a similar idea as Delta, they are starting a Denver-Honolulu nonstop with a 777 to replace (sort of) the ORD-HNL DC10 nonstop.

User currently offlineCALpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

At CO we use a "Business First" seat as our crew rest seat for pilots on all B767, and B757 flights that exceed 8hours. We have never had bunks for crew members on any airplane with the exception of the B777.

User currently offlineSEAHAL From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

HAL, I talked with Capt. Hammer on a recent HNL-SEA flight and he said Hawaiian has a small pilot base in SEA. He said those pilots often fly Flight#21 SEA-HNL and Flight #22 HNL-SEA on the same day. Which means the flight out of SEA leaves at 8:50am with the return flight arriving at 9:30pm. Isn't that over the 12 hour rule for the 3 man DC-10 cockpit?

User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2561 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

The rule is regarding flight time, not duty time. When we do the out-and-backs, we're on duty a little under 14 hours, and fly about 11.5 hours.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineUS A333 PIT From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 1543 times:

First class seats are usually used on aircraft unequipped with a crew rest cabin. There's lots of debate on the quality of first class seats among pilots for airlines like Delta.

User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1534 times:

We talked with the crew on the AA flight Jan 1 and they were within guideline to to the LAX_KOA_LAX roundtrip on one duty. The flight attendants weren't too happy on my flight back to LAX. I think they were thankful that both ways it was a night flight.

User currently offlineMikeymike From United States of America, joined May 2000, 406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1521 times:

For DL, and especial D-ALPA, its not the quality of the seats in F/C, but rather whether or not the rest facilities they recieve meets the D-ALPA made ALPA crew rest policy. We need to pay extremely close attention to this detail. This fact is the inherent political innuendo in the whole argument. Everything stems from the perceived quality of rest a pilot can get during his/her rest period. Again, as I stated above, the the ALPA crew rest policy does NOT distinguish between 8-12 block to block hour flights and 12+ hour flights. The policy believes that if you are mandated to take a rest period, a pilot deserves this type of facility to ensure adequate rest. It also doesn't differentiate between one 8-12 sector vs. another (i.e. ATL-HNL in a domestic config vs. an ATL-MUC in a international config) 8+ hours is stil 8+ hours.

To some extent, I agree that a F/C seat may not get you the rest that you deserve, but you can't single out the seat alone. Its the environment in which that seat is placed. If you took that very same seat and placed into a secluded wall-off portion of the cabin where you could eliminate any noise and lighting spikes, control the air temperature and get into a full flat position, then ofcourse, as it has been proven in NASA sleep depravation studies, the quality of your rest will be much better in the limited amount of time you have to sleep.

However, with all that being said, a first class seat is adequate if you compare it to what they used to get in a 3-man cockpit. Ofcourse I know that a three-man flightdeck requires less responsibility on a per-pilot basis.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA First Class To Hawaii posted Wed Feb 14 2007 16:12:22 by Collin260
Jetblue To Hawaii? posted Mon Feb 12 2007 20:37:25 by Crberkley
ATA Sale To Hawaii posted Sun Feb 11 2007 04:14:12 by Socal
Crew Rest Seats On UA 981 posted Thu Feb 8 2007 11:10:06 by HAMAD
Alaska Airlines To Hawaii, Not If But When? posted Sun Jan 21 2007 21:37:30 by HALFA
United 777 Service To Hawaii posted Sun Dec 31 2006 20:14:23 by AAden
JQ To Hawaii posted Fri Dec 29 2006 05:56:56 by Bakestar
JetStar Denied Flying To Hawaii? posted Thu Dec 7 2006 08:29:39 by Safs
ATA Airlines Adding New Service To Hawaii posted Mon Nov 20 2006 23:05:04 by ATA767
Alaska To Hawaii? posted Mon Oct 30 2006 14:30:15 by Wedgetail737