Singapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13711 posts, RR: 21 Posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1081 times:
Financial Times Extract
Lufthansa threatens to start budget flights
By Uta Harnischfeger in Frankfurt
Published: January 22 2002 19:25 | Last Updated: January 22 2002 19:30
Lufthansa, the German flag carrier, on Tuesday said it might make good on repeated warnings that it would set up its own low-cost airline to fend off the growing competition from budget airlines such as Ryanair, Europe's biggest low-cost carrier, and Germania Fluggesellschaft.
Separately, Lufthansa was forced to clarify remarks by a board member whose performance forecast for the company sent the stock sharply lower in early morning trading. Instead, Lufthansa reiterated that it hoped to break even in its operating result, but would probably report a net loss of about E400m ($354m) in 2001.
Ralf Teckentrup, the airline's marketing chief, said Lufthansa could pull plans for a low-budget airline out of the drawer at any given moment. "The concept for our own low-budget airline is fully ready and we can carry it out at any time."
Budget airlines such as Ryanair have been winning business from full- service airlines. Ryanair, which has launched aggressive marketing campaigns across Germany, plans to make Frankfurt-Hahn, a former army base, its new European flight hub.
"In view of Ryanair's aggressive marketing campaigns, it shouldn't astonish anyone that such ideas [about a no-frills Lufthansa airline] are coming to life again," a Lufthansa spokesman said. Nevertheless, Lufthansa played down Mr Teckentrup's comments and said they did not mean that it had imminent plans for such a move.
Industry analysts echoed Lufthansa's view and warned that the German market was already full of no-frills airlines. "If you include the charter airlines [serving highly-frequented tourist destinations from regional airports] then the German low-fare market is already more than saturated," said Uwe Weinreich at HVB.
The German cartel office warned Lufthansa over what it said were excessively low ticket prices on the Frankfurt-Berlin Tegel route.
Ulf Böge, cartel office president, argued that Lufthansa's actions were unfair and cited as evidence the fact that it did not cut prices on other internal flights where Germania, a domestic budget carrier, was not present.
Separately, a local appeals court in Cologne said on Tuesday that it would take until February 12 to adjudicate in a battle between Lufthansa and Ryanair regarding the latter's pricing and advertising methods.
In addition, Lufthansa's pilots' union warned that it might go on strike following a ballot running until February 15. The strike warning comes after wage talks with the management of City Line, a unit of Lufthansam, failed.
Greenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 924 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 984 times:
Good for them but they'll regret it. BA failed with Go. Continental didn't exactly succeed with Continental Lite, nor did United with Shuttle or US Airways with Metrojet. What makes Lufthansa think they can succeed? Sounds to me LH are about to throw away money and at the wrong time too. Good luck to them.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 866 times:
LOL!!! No they didn't threaten to do a lowcost carrier, what a great translation mistake, hehehe!!
Mr. Teckentrup only said, they were thinking about it, and they have been doing so since years. Especially the latter remark should give you an idea about LH's real intention to go "Baby-Crane": Don't count on it in the nearer future, I'm quite sure about that (Hoffa, don't make a bet on it, you'd probably lose money!).
There are several things that go against such a project:
Babycrane would be a direct competitor to Big-crane, and quite a few business travellers probably don't find it so funny to pay high airfares if they can fly LH light for low fares. Furthermore there'd still be the dumping pricing problem, as Baby crane would still be LH group and there'd always be suspicions about cross-subsidies in order to keep airfares low.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3593 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 851 times:
What's the difference ? Lufthansa had a disguised low-fare operation when they were trying to fight off Ryanair and Go at Stansted - cheap flights with literally no in-flight service from FRA, MUC and HAM using bmi A321s and B146s and LH mainline a/c. It is probably just a question of economics - utilising some mainline or leased aircraft and cross-subsidise them with mainline revenues or setting up a true subsidiary which you finance with exactly the same money. I doubt that LH would really consider establishing such an airline for the long run. If - if - they have finally driven FR or others out of the German market, they would probably close that ugly duckling down before you can count to three.
Capt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 820 times:
It was certainly not a mistake to sell GO-and a good thing that BA got rid of it before Sep. 11, otherwise they would have been in a mightier mess than they are now.
BA and GO have completely different strategies and aims, and are mutually exclusive in that respect-each airline should concentrate on what it does best.
So the case with LH. There is room for both types of airlines. I know it's been said before, but I think it's true.
LH offers a reliable, and generally good business-orientated service & schedule. There will always be executives who will stay loyal to LH, because they know exactly what they are going to get, even if something goes wrong-and they are willing to pay a premium for 'peace of mind'.
Let LH concentrate on that market, and not wate time & money on something which it clearly would rather not get into....
Germania and Ryanair should be allowed to play-let them concentrate on what they do best-carrying mainly leisure travellers for a weekend in London etc.
The main carriers will have to adapt to the new, vicious competition, but LH and BMI's strategies aren't going to last that long, imo.
Still, great news for the average traveller in the short-term.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 811 times:
Captain Picard I'm afraid it's not that easy. There is research that proves that up to 60% of the passenegrs of so called low-cost carriers are more or less on business (whatever more or less means!). If that is true, even LH needs to rethink its strategy. Still I don't think, a baby-crane would be the answer, and I still don't believe they will actually go ahead with that.
I think the success of the low-costs is a striking proof that cost-cutting and restructuring of the majors is proceeding way too slow, that goes for BA and LH, both frontrunners among the majors concerning cost-cutting and restructuring, as well.
Qantas744 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 246 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 798 times:
As an aside to the comment above,I was on easyJet yesterday (Luton-Glasgow),and in the departure lounge for the 0935 flight were 50-60 pax suited up to the nines,plus around a dozen pax in casual gear.I know that isn't a very scientific way of making a point but it illustrates how corporate travel account managers are just as cost conscious as the rest of us.
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
B737-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 788 times:
Didn't Lufthansa already fail with their LUFTHANSA EXPRESS a few years ago ? Wasn't that just something like a low-cost alternative ??
How could they be able to succeed if the wages for the crew will be the same as on mainline LH ???? Only droping the 3 € food + newspaper ?? Mhhhhhh. Dunno.
But it of course would be cool to have a LH low cost airline. Would they go international are just within Germany ?
Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 38 Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 771 times:
RE: crew wages:
LH have one advantage over BA, CO, US... that more or less failed when trying to build up a low cost operation: All LH have to do is make "LH light" an eastern German company - and presto, you save 10-15% on personal cost. That´s, by the way, the reason why Condor´s low cost airline CondorBerlin have their HQs at SXF, in East-Berlin. And CondorBerlin must have success to a certain degree, or else they wouldn´t still be alive and kicking in their fifth year.
Capt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 767 times:
Sorry for this long post, I feel I am in a converstaion....
Yes, it's not as easy as that, but my comment was more general in nature.
I too have seen businessmen on my flights with Ryanair, and who knows, maybe in the future we'll see more of them electing to save big money by flying with Easyjet etc.
I still think there are and will be, plenty of 'core' BA, LH, AF etc. customers in the future-I may be totally wrong, but I just have doubts about the main carriers disappearing completely from Europe-as I said earlier, I beleive there will always be high-yield demand on certain 'key' business routes (Frankfurt & London, London & Paris, Zurich & Milan etc. etc...)
That's why I think BA will shortly be announcing cuts in it's European network-but only on routes where it clearly has no future, ie. the smaller Euro cities such as Naples, Zagreb, Venice etc.; at the same time, I'm pretty certain all the main routes will still be there.
As an example, my father travels regularly on business within Europe, using Heathrow as a base. Ok, he's not paying the fare, but his employer expects him to be in Frankfurt on-time, and for his ticket to be fully-flexible. In their eyes, BA provides exactly what they need-reliability, flexibility and a nice choice of schedules every day.
Heathrow is no problem, as it's well-connected by the Heathrow Express train to Paddington (15 minutes). BA flies into FRA; again, it's close and convenient.
Many of you have said this already, but HHN is just a bit too far from FRA to be attactive to people such as my father-and my dad simply isn't interested in Stansted.
And whilst I don't care about no food (saves money!), he actually enjoys his glass of morning champagne and 'herb' salad on a 6am flight out to Athens, or wherever.
I'm all for Ryanair, I think they're great, although I don't think they are really a problem on core business routes within Europe, such as those I mentioned above.
No-frills airlines are mainly eating up the more peripheral routes in my mind.
Ok, I'm ready to be proved wrong now, or in the future!
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 761 times:
Hmmmm, the idea Eastern Germany is not bad, though I still don't believe they'll do it. Besides it would take pressure from LH to accelerate their cost restructuring, which they obviously need urgently (compared to the low-costs, not the majors).
btw Condor had to go to SXF, the idea was to gather all charter flights in SXF, in TXL (though LH basis in Berlin), they were a company "non grata". It serves them right, but it was not entirely what they originally wanted.
Andreas (Berliner!! or to be precise: Wilmersdorfer!!!)
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4149 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 745 times:
Capt Picard, easyJet probably does have more business people onboarad because they serve the "better" airports like LGW, AMS, GVA and MAD (airports where you won't see a Ryanair plane).
LH is probably worried that once a low cost operator may set up FRA-LGW, FRA-MAD or FRA-GVA. I think this worry is justified and not very strange that LH is already thinking about what to do when it happens. Fortunately for LH it's very difficult to get slots at FRA.
Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 38 Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 717 times:
I don´t know about animosities between LH/CIB on the one side and TXL and/or SXF on the other. But the operations and administrative respective HQs need not necessarily be located at the same airport. The decision to have CIB´s administrative HQ in the east was indeed primarily for financial reasons. I´m just trying to figure out where I read that; might be an article from one Berlin newspaper, might be a Lufthanseat article from late 97/early 98 (when CIB was launched).
BTW, I was on CIB and DE mainline flights three days apart - and it´s really identical service. So the only cost cutting measure must be wages.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 712 times:
Still it seems strange to me, that LH Baby would fly to Gatwick for, say, € 99, while LH senior would go to Heathrow with a much higher price.
Instead should any such route be served by a low-cost carrier, it must be allowed to LH to attack with comparable prices (what I call competition, not dumping), but I guess, that brings us back to our yesterday's discussion.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
25 Andreas: Yes it was probably a nice external effect for Condor that Berlin-Brandenburg.-Flughafenholding threw them out of the city, and maybe they would have
26 Airsicknessbag: Very interesting. I guess it would have been a powerful political signal for a Berlin/Brandenburg merger if LH had set up their Berlin ops at an airp