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Why Aren't There US In The ME?  
User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2319 times:

Why don't US airlines have flights to Arab Middle Eastern countries? Delta has recently stopped flights to CAI and DXB.

I've heared that United was interested in flying to Saudi Arabia around five years ago. What happened next?

Most Arab airlines, incl. MS, KU, SV, RJ, AT, and prviously ME and GF-fly to the US. These sectors were booming, prior to 9/11 at least.

Can anyone give non-political reason plz!


A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

DL tried DXB/CAI. The flight didn't do well at all. They started off with 3X weekly flights using a MD11. They were supposed to downgrade the aircraft to a B767-300 but 9/11 changed that. Instead they discontinued the flight.

TWA used to fly to CAI/RUH but when AA took over they stopped the flight, because it wasn't profitable anymore.

I don't think we'll ever see more US airlines in the ME. Why? Because the demand isn't there, and most Middle Eastern airlines already have a stronghold on the market (LY, KU, MS, etc). Also, EK is going to start flights to JFK/LAX/YYZ/ORD starting in 2003 using DXB as a connecting hub.



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineEl Al 001 From Israel, joined Oct 1999, 1063 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

But there are some code share flights out there, right???

BTW, UA would start 'flying' to TLV on a codeshare basis with LH, this would start on March.

Michael


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4120 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Why do you insist upon a non-political reason when there may not be? At the surface we need to be careful about who now comes into our country...and having flights from that region only hurts that effort. Also, our own people would not fill the planes to that region (because of fear) and people over there would choose their own regional carriers (Emirates, Saudi) or some neutral carrier (British Airways).

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32878 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

CO flies to the Middle East. From what I hear, AA/TW's JFK-CAI-RUH flight was profitable to the very end. Don't know why it ended, though.


a.
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2153 times:

I heard that the yields were very low. Also, the RUH-CAI sector was doing very well but the CAI-JFK sector wasn't doing that well...


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

"Why don't US airlines have flights to Arab Middle Eastern countries?"
What about Jewish Middle Eastern Countries?  Big thumbs up (PS: There's only one, and I'll give you 3 guesses)


User currently offlineDavid B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Let me guess: American, Delta, US Air Big grin


Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

If there was market potential, US carriers would be there.

The Arab flag carriers are all govt owned and hardly have a strong bottom line focus....they fly to the US for prestige, not profit.

Let's face it.....most Arab countries are poor with few business conx to the US and generally non-entrepreneurial economies. There is thus little business traffic betw the US and Arab countries.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

US carriers aren't serving the Middle East precisely because of political, security, and economic considerations. The majority of passengers on U.S. flag carriers to the Middle East would generally be Americans; however, the level of anti-American sentiment and risk of being the target of a terror attack keeps most Americans away from that region of the world. People don't forget things like a group of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists shooting up a busload of German tourists in the middle of Cairo thinking that they were Americans.

A U.S. airline flying to the Middle East automatically makes itself a target of terrorists by raising its profile in that part of the world. Not only does that pose serious security concerns at their operation in the Middle East; it also increases the risk of security problems at their operations worldwide.

But as others have said, the economics play an important role. A U.S. carrier would be forced to compete against well-established government-subsidized carriers in that part of the world. It's easier to simply add a limited presence through codesharing.


User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6778 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

US carriers aren't serving the Middle East precisely because of political, security, and economic considerations. The majority of passengers on U.S. flag carriers to the Middle East would generally be Americans; however, the level of anti-American sentiment and risk of being the target of a terror attack keeps most Americans away from that region of the world. People don't forget things like a group of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists shooting up a busload of German tourists in the middle of Cairo thinking that they were Americans.

A U.S. airline flying to the Middle East automatically makes itself a target of terrorists by raising its profile in that part of the world. Not only does that pose serious security concerns at their operation in the Middle East; it also increases the risk of security problems at their operations worldwide.

But as others have said, the economics play an important role. A U.S. carrier would be forced to compete against well-established government-subsidized carriers in that part of the world. It's easier to simply add a limited presence through codesharing.


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Good analysis, Scottb. Why should US carriers put their people, pax, and planes at risk when there isn't money to be made? Middle Easterers who want to get to the US have their own government-subsidized carriers, and everyone can go through Europe if needed. Service exists on carriers that can profit from it or are subsidized to offer it, it's just not all nonstop.

Any update on how many of these carriers are submitting their US pax manifests for US scrutiny against the feds' terrorist-suspect database? As of last summer none of them were. Did Congress actually require this last fall, or did we back down to please the Saud family?

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Some middle east carriers might expand service into the US,

like Emirates might expand into Houston.

US Carriers could then codeshare with several of the ME carriers into the USA, Emirates, Egypt air, etc


User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Why did I say "arab middle eastern countries"? b'coz i know that there are flights for TW (and now AA i guess) and for Delta into TLV... Plz correct me if i'm mistaken.

Scottb, thanks for your nice analysis... but actually I know all political reasons, and that's why i stressed on non-political issues. Actually most members are diverting from the main issue to discuss other subjects.

I would like to remind you that there are Arab Americans who regularily visit the Middle East, in addition to the Arabs living there. I think these will fill the plane to the neck at any flight. Btw, pax to the US and Canada from the ME count for around 60% of the total pax using European carriers. So can you imagine how happy will CO be if they screwd BA and AF?



A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineMls515 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3076 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2023 times:



I think most would be just as happy to feed the passengers to their European partners.


User currently offlineLY772 From Israel, joined Aug 2001, 1340 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2014 times:

You are mistaken. The only North American carriers are CO (1xEWR) and AC(1xYYZ)

User currently offlineOD-BWH From Kuwait, joined Jan 2002, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2009 times:

I'm quite sure that TWA once operated a flight between TLV and JFK. I think it's over now with AA taking over TW.

The main losers, I guess, are United and NWA, b'coz they've never had any presence in the region. I don't think a partner can take the place of the original airline. Here are LH and KLM: they both are operating to more cities in the US and S. America, while keeping their ties with the americans'.



A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A343, A346, A388, B734, B738, B772, B773, F70
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

What time does the CO flight leave TLV for EWR?And what time does it leave EWR for TLV?
Thanks,Alex


User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1977 times:

MEA used to fly into New York I believe, however, the flights were cancelled once the B742s were disposed.

OD-BWH, what aircraft type is your user name from?

How is MEA going these days? I know that financially they were having problems & were trying to restructure with the laying off of staff.

Do you know if they have any plans for future fleet growth? I wish they would return to Sydney!


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1975 times:

OD-BWH, you seem to miss the point that ScottB and others have brought up. Several of the USA Cartel carriers *have* tried service to Arab Middle Eastern countries, and they *haven't* been "filled to the neck" with passengers, or they'd still be flying. That means that these airlines can't make money on those routes.

Also, government ownership or subsidies of Middle Eastern carriers is not simply a 'political' factor. It is very much an economic factor that helps these carriers make money more easily.

Might there be other reasons that Middle Easterners fly European and Middle Eastern carriers to the USA? Perhaps they have a certain amount of patriotism and like to support their home carriers? Or perceive something desirable about European carriers that they do not, about American carriers? It's no secret that a lot of Middle Easterners don't like the USA, even though they are quite happy to live here and earn our money. Might they prefer to support home carriers?

It's not possible to neatly separate cultural, social, and political factors the way you seem to suppose. Each affects the others. Whatever the factors, services by USA airlines to the Middle East haven't made money. For carriers in the USA, that's the bottom line, and for that reason they haven't for the most part endured.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1968 times:

Just a tiny detail I picked up-someone called BA a 'neutral' airline, implying Americans would feel safer flying them to the ME.

Mmmm, I don't think Britain is considered a 'neutral' country anymore! Big grin

Of course it will never happen, but in a safety sense, it's a shame EL AL don't fly around there!

Regards



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1957 times:

I also am someone who doesn't think of EL AL as being a ME airline. I think of EL AL (and Israel) as being European.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFlydeltasjets From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Maybe it's because the a$$holes keep blowing up our airplanes.

User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

AA codeshares with GF between Abu Dhabi and LHR. The plane is a GF plane though (A340)


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

Here can be a non political reason for the failure of US carriers in the region:
If you compare the service by Emirates to the service of US caarriers, you wil quickly make your choice.....
And fly Emirates.
It is not patriotism. It is just common sense....
Nana...



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
25 Goingboeing : Simple - they hate us over there.
26 Airzim : Goingboeing? Thanks for that very helpful and insightful comment. First of all who is "they" Secondly have you been to any Middles Eastern country? I
27 Goingboeing : Well Airzim - would you be the first to board a big silver bird with the word AMERICAN painted on the side that is heading to the mideast?
28 Thomasphoto60 : I agree with Airzim, as I have traveled extensively throughout of N.Africa and the Mid-East and I never experinced any open hostility. Before judging
29 Goingboeing : Before ramming 4 airliners into buildings and the ground, I suggest spending less time in the jihad and more time out with civilized people.
30 Mah4546 : This is getting ridiculous. I have traveled extensivley throughout the Middle East, including the U.A.E., Israel, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt, and
31 Flydeltasjets : When planes are intentionally blown up, middle easterners do it almost 100% of the time. When people blow up planes, I call them a$$holes. Therefore,
32 Mah4546 : flydeltajets, you have serious problems. There are many Middle Easterners on this board right here that do not go around blowing up airplanes. In fact
33 Seagull : U.S. freight operators do go to the middle east.
34 Flydeltasjets : Mah, Did I say that all middle easterners blow up airplanes? No. What I did say is that the a$$holes keep blowing up planes. Those a$$holes are almost
35 Teva : goingboeing, you say: Before ramming 4 airliners into buildings and the ground, I suggest spending less time in the jihad and more time out with civil
36 Post contains links Flying-Tiger : Hell, when I read this topic I´m not really surprised that US citizens are not really beloved in many countries. Most of them behave in a completely
37 OD-BWH : Mah: I won't reply to any insult if I were you!! I've been trying to make good relationships with people around, but it seems like they are filled wit
38 Post contains images OD-BWH : MEA: I made up this registration number OD-BWH
39 Fly_emirates : guys, if US carriers flew to the middle east.. it wouldnt be profitable for them. because as a flight attendant, i heard from many passengers that the
40 OD-BWH : I've been told by a friend who flown Gulf Air non-stop from BAH to JFK a couple of years ago, that it was extremely exhausting. No one I guess can tol
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