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Toronto Island Airport, New Airline Proposed  
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

http://www.aeforum.net/cgi-bin/forum/index.pl?read=26700


Apparantly there is a new airline being proposed at the Toronto Island Airport. This in the wake of news that the airport might be closed for good. See the article for details.

I, as an aviation fan, and hopefully future airline pilot, welcome something like this with open arms. Also, I do believe that business people in downtown Toronto who need good air service to other cities not too far away, have a lot to gain by this.

However ...

There is a lot of pressure from many different groups to close the airport. There are, I hate to say it, many good reasons to close it down. Also, what about Air Ontario? Or should I say, Air Canada Regional? They will compete, and they have the means to do so, at least I think they do.

There are plans to develop new condos, which would be in the approach path to one of the runways. This is a huge source of revenue for the area, and possibly seen by most as a more positive development. Also, there will be the high speed rail link to Pearson Airport, which means that getting to Pearson wont be too long, maybe 30 minutes. Considering it will take 10 to 15 minutes to get to the Island Airport anyways, the difference isn't significant. Another factor, is that this is a noise sensitive area, and the greenies are always crying about anything, and their voices are heard by the government. Doesn't matter how quiet these DASH 8's really are, they will always complain. Maybe they should only let aviation buffs move to the island!

My aviation heart wants this, but I don't know if it is the most sensible thing to do for the city and the immediate area.

What is everybody's thoughts on this???



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

I think that this is a good idea, The potential for that airport is huge, I think that having a connection to the major cities around the GTA both in the US and Canada is vital, and the fact that you will be able to check in at Union station, and have a direct fixed link from the mainland to the island, as well as to YYZ is great. Rather then defeating the purpose of having an Island airport, I think that having a fixed link to YYZ will compliment the Island, you will be able to fly in from New York to the Island for a business meating downtown, and then get on the train and go to pearson for a flight to Europe or out west, and you will save lots of time in between all those flights. ACR does not use the island because the facilities do not exist there to expand their service and they can not afford to expand the airport on their own, now we have an investor who is willing to pay for much of the expansion, as well as supply a new carrier to the down town core, I think it is a great thing for the city.

Also the approach can be changed into the island...I think that the smaller flying schools should be moved off the island, and it should be a corporate/regional airport only, just like London City airport, and I think that the approach can be adjusted to the same kind of approach that exists in london city, witha much steeper glide path, 4 or 5 degrees, which the Q400, and standard dash 8's are certified for. This would decrease the noise, and the risk of hitting buildings.

ALso the waterfront at the other end of the TCCA Approach is now slated for the development of a large Movie lot, so tall buildings should not be a problem.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Sounds like City Express Part II!

Does anybody remember why City Express failed? My memory doesn't go that far...

It's great for the future of YTZ that this new airline is coming because it gives ACR some competition. And We all know how aggressive AC/ACR is with competition!!!! Don't be surprised to see a jump to 20 ACR daily departures to YOW and YUL, just for the sake of slaughering this new guy!



buhh bye
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Well,

I do agree that there exists a certain potential for the Island Airport, but given that there are so many "groups" against anything at the island, especially those who live at the island, and are "sensitive" to anything that whispers in the air, there will always be problems, and that will limit the expansion of the airport for sure.

Regarding the land, yes, there is the proposed movie lot might happen, but I'm not sure it will be on the same plot of land. I think these are close, but not quite the same.

Also, as much as I'd like to see the success of London City airport, I don't want to think of other city centre airports which have not been so successful. And London is a much bigger city than Toronto. AND, Pearson is reasonably close to downtown Toronto.

Again, this is something I'd like to see, but I do believe there are too many things going against it.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1673 times:

It all comes down to money talks and BS walks, as such, there are around 1000 people living on the island at peak times (Summer) all of those homes are leased plots of land from toronto parks and rec, so the question now becomes, what will make the city (which is going broke) more money? The pinko/green peace idiots who live on the island for the most part, part time, or a new, revived airport serving the likes of bay street and the heart of canada's financial community.

London is a much bigger city, and london city serves a hell of a lot more people the the TCCA plan intends to, and so it will not cost as much to build the proper buildings/services for a down town airport.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Hey, money talks, BS walks for sure. But how is it that these island people have been so powerful with regards to hindering airport expansion at YTZ in the past? And it's not just them. Lots of people in the city want to erect condos in the area, which brings many people with money into the immediate area. Also, they want to tear down the Gardiner Expressway, all in the name of beautifying the Harbourfront area. They also want to turn the Toronto Island Airport into parkland. And truthfully, there are some good arguments for that. There is also talk about the Pickering airport, and if that goes ahead, goodbye YTZ for sure.

But again, ACR wont stand still, and if it gets rebranded, and they become more independent of Air Canada, expanding at their own ability and will, then this new airline will have something to worry about, unless they can somehow secure a monopoly at YTZ.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

You are right they have been successfull in keeping YTZ down, but look at the previous toronto leaders, people like barbra Hall who are almost as socialist if not more then our federal governent. Now we have Mel, who is a dope, but who in his heart someplace really wants the city to succeed and be one of if not the best places int he world. I think he sees the business potential of the airport, and the waterfront. He has stated taht he would want to expand the island in the past. Right now I think that the situation exists that all forms of government are more interested in makin gmoney and stablizing the economy then making a park.

The garder is being torn down because it is ugly but also because the land can and should be used for something much more productive, and condos as well as buildings and a park community will be much better and nicer of the city over all...they would not be spending billions to get rid of it if they didnt think they could not make the money back. Everyone who lives around th epickering lands is against it, and what use is an airport at the other end of the city when there is nothing near the down town?

the ACR merger will not give ACR more freedom, if anything it will make it closer to Air Canada, and they would love to expand the island, but they can not afford it.



"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1651 times:

I have read elsewhere that Air Canada would only have a minority interest in ACR, and there would be other sources owning the majority of ACR. This would indicate that ACR would not be in a sense serving Air Canada's needs, but rather be its own independent airline, with its own needs and would have to focus on expansion into money making ventures.

Regarding Pickering, I too do not see too much logic in it. But I don't make the decisions, and if those who do make the decision to construct an airport there, then that would be the final blow to YTZ.

Regarding the Gardiner, yes, they do want to tear it down, and yes it is ugly. It has to be replaced with something else to provide the service that it currently provides. But the reality is, if the government is smart (HAHAHA) they will look at the net present value of the Island Airport expansion, and compare that to the other projects it has for the area. I do not think that there will be much to gain, when all is said and done, after the high speed link is built connecting downtown to Pearson. And also, there is only so much that the city can afford. Hey, they can't afford to have the pools in schools anymore, nevermind running an airport with honestly a dubious future, nevermind past.

I think we have to look and see, there is much less traffic at the Island Airport. Why? Do people prefer travelling out of Pearson? Would the investment proposed cure this problem? Would traffic increase to the point of making this a viable project? Or is Toronto well enough served by Pearson airport that the expansion of Toronto Island is just silly? I don't know.

I will hate to see YTZ go, because there are a lot of good things about it, but I have big doubts on its future. Maybe Slawko can enlighten me with some business sense and I'll see the light!!!



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineFly_yhm From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 1668 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1650 times:

Sounds good to me but if they get this off the ground beware of Air Canada. and if they cant get into Toronto city Center they should bring it to YHM atleast the flights to the south and maybe use regional jets instead.

my $.02



Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1643 times:

The family behind this new start up, was the family that was going to buy ACR. This plan is no longer on the table, and AC will remain the majority owner, ACR is too restricted by the main line scope clauses that prevent it from expanding to anything much more then it already is. Someone on another forum brought up a good point, and I will not be surprised to see it happen, ACR will probably in the next week or so announce an expansion at the island, taking up the existing large A/C slots at the island preventing the new company from starting up, and this time I dont see Minister ConeHead stepping in to prevent it, so it will be up to the CTA and the the copetition board to prevent ACR from moving in. The way I see it it is all up to the port authority and the municipal/provincial governments to make this thing a go...and I hope they have more brains then Conehead....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineSpyderz From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1640 times:

Love the idea. The Q400 is an excellent aircraft and I've always felt AC Regional is a bit suceptable to attack, particularily with the Q400. With this aircraft, I totally feel the regional jets are a bit overrated. The operating economics of it are superb.
Oh ya, and what about this. I've always thought about buying those Beriev 400? (can't remember the number) which could be an amphibious plane with 100 passengers. It could fly from Vancouver to Toronto and land on the water. There goes the cost of landing fees, but I sure know those tree-huggers would like jets near the city.

anywho


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1632 times:

ANYONE: City Express, what happened?


buhh bye
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1629 times:

City Express was run by the mafia, and they had a shaudy operations running at best of times....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlinePlaneawesome From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

I remember City Express flying dash-7's in the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto island corridor back in the eighties.

They also had ancillary services to places like Peterborough and London (Ont.) with smaller aircraft if memory serves me correctly.
It was run by a guy named Papalardo I think.

A then independant Air Ontario (now part of ACR) either bought out the operation or moved in and blew it away.

In my opinion , the very influential Toronto real estate development braintrust will ensure the eventual death of the Toronto island airport one way or another.
It'll be a sad day.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16228 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

The loads on ACR DH1 flights are often very low, albeit yields are high.

Not sure I see the market for a -400.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

Well, the only way for the Toronto Island to see really nice loads to various locations using Q400 aircraft, would be to see a radical change to the way the airport is run.

I think this groups wants to do that. Will they be successful? I doubt it, because of all the obstacles I mentioned previously. Too many political issues, too many environmental issues, and also competitive issues. The plan would be a real treat for aviation enthusiasts, but I trully doubt that it will work, especially with Pearson's rapid expansion, the new terminal, increased traffic going through there, and the high speed rail link.

YTZ's days are numbered  Sad



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineCch362 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Does anyone know who exactly decides on the fate of TCCA? From my understanding, the federal government, the Harbour Commission and the Toronto City Council all maintain control over the airport, but none seems to have much ability to exert any real power. The city council has threatened TCCA's closure for years, but the Harbour Commission appears to be able to keep it open all this time, at least since the 1970s. The federal government, well, in the grand Canadian ritual, sits on the fence.

It is ironic that the city council has traditionally opposed the airport. It forced an agreement that prohibits jets like the BAe146/Avrojet from TCCA, and has kept it inaccessible by land by repeatedly rejecting plans to build a bridge or tunnel across the "gap" between the island and downtown. TCCA is similar to Meigs Field in Chicago, in that its potential is wasted by shortsightedness in politics. Environmental concerns should be non-issues because the primary landing- and take-off paths are over water. But, somehow, they are the main arguments for closure advocates.

Like London-City, there is a niche for TCCA with general aviation and scheduled services for people who desire the proximity downtown. By keeping an airport downtown rather than in the suburbs, the city benefits. Why the city council wants to kill it makes no sense.


User currently offlineCrj 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 588 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1569 times:

Hey Guys...I was the one who told you about the proposed buyout of ACR and my bet is it will still happen, as to who buys is another story. ACR has been a longtime operator into the Island. it's very convenient for business travellers going to YUL and YOW. As i recently read , the city is trying to decide to keep itopen or close it. IF they keep it open they will expand the airport with a new terminal and a runway extension to allow RJ's to operate in and a bridge to the mainland(which only makes sense). Seems reasonable given the move away from turboprops(as much as i luv 'em) and ACR's announcement for CRJ's (which we all knew about anyways). I for one would luv to ee the whole thing upgraded and we add destinations to other business centers...ie transborder. Oh ya, AC/ACR won't sit by and let the new guy come in and kick their butt, you're all right about that....Even if we were bought out, I'm sure the company will be VERY aggressive. You know, I can't believe that that idiot Collenette thought that building a new airport in PICKERING would be cheaper and more attractive to a regional airline! Somebody get rid of this jerk.

User currently offlineCch362 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1546 times:

I doubt that TCCA's survival is dependent on the success of commercial airline service. It is already a very popular general aviation airport, and an important base for amphibious aircraft that provide vital links to remote regions in northern Ontario. They also provide strong lobby support for keeping the airport and against real estate interests.

Currently, the airport is operating at a deficit. The only way to break a profit is to lift the jet ban and allow more flights, including business jets for downtown executives. I agree a runway extension for CRJ (can't imagine ever seeing an EMB RJ there) is necessary, but I won't hold my breath for it. That's quite unfortunate because the only commercial jet capable of serving TCCA is the BAe146/Avrojet, and that may be too big for the Toronto market.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (12 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1527 times:

I think the only real way for the Island Airport to survive is if there is enough interest in the airport shown, and that message reaches the government. If a sollution can be made which will turn the operation to profitability, and not only that, one which proves more profitable than real estate development in the area, then the TCCA will survive. I don't quite think that the sollution of the article is necessarily the one to change this, but it just might work, if it can overcome all the hurdles I mentioned before. I am interested in seeing what will happen with Air Canada Regional, and if they show an interest in the airport.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineYow From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

YTZ could be turned into a regional mini-hub if someone (ie this proposed airline) could time connections from a bunch of cities within a 900km radius of Toronto.

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