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SAA To Make A Fleet Choice In Two Weeks  
User currently offlineSAA201 From South Africa, joined May 2001, 514 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

For those interested the following comes from Business Report, South Africa (www.busrep.co.za)

Audrey d` Angelo
February 08 2002 at 06:34AM


Cape Town - SAA is expected to make its final recommendations on the choice of a new long haul fleet to its board and the department of public enterprises in just over two weeks' time.

Boeing and Airbus are convincing the airline that their products will best fit its needs and the bargaining is in final stages with trade-ins under consideration.

Richard Forson, SAA's executive vice-president of finance, hoped to take delivery of some of the new planes in time for the start of the next holiday season. He said they were needed urgently to make the airline more competitive and because they were more economical to operate than SAA's older planes.

Boeing is offering its "family" of twin-engined Boeing 777s in different sizes. Airbus is concentrating mainly on its four-engined Airbus A340-300 and its larger long-range Airbus A340-600, which is better able to take off with a full load from a hot, high airport such as Johannesburg International.

Airbus has emphasised the fact that the Boeing 777 is restricted in the distance it is allowed to fly from a suitable airport because it only has two engines. But Smith said the plane was capable of taking off and flying for a longer distance than this on one engine and SAA could apply for regulatory approval to fly further from an airport.

Linden Birns, Airbus' representative in South Africa, said SAA would have difficulty in obtaining such approval because a normal requirement was to have experience in operating a 777 for two years.

SAA has never had a Boeing 777 aircraft in its fleet.


26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2070 times:

Airbus is concentrating mainly on its four-engined Airbus A340-300 and its larger long-range Airbus A340-600, which is better able to take off with a full load from a hot, high airport such as Johannesburg International.

Better able than what? The A343? The B777 is a proven hot and high performer and the A340 doesn't even come close in this regard.

It will likely be the B777. I'd bet money on it.



It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

I am a little confused by what the article means concerning operations with one engine to a suitable airport.......is the article referreing to ETOPS or something else?

SAA is a 767 operator so they have some experience with big twins, maybe someone can help me with this point, I do not get it?

Didn't SAA order the 777 in the past and then defer/cancel the order? I think I remember that SAA ordered four 777s, didnt know that they were now shopping again. With South Africa's current currency problems, can they afford to purchase new aircraft?


User currently offlineStarship From South Africa, joined Nov 1999, 1098 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2018 times:

With South Africa's current currency problems, can they afford to purchase new aircraft?

Bear in mind that SAA own nothing but a handful of 25 -30 year old 747s, which no-one was interested in buying. All the other aircraft are leased.

I am not so convinced about the B777 being first choice. I'm inclined to think the Airbus A340 as a very likely candidate.



Behind every "no" is a "yes"
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2013 times:

Even leased aircraft require payments, usually in dollars or euros.......the value of the south african rand has drastically decreased in recent months.

Thats why I ask, lease or purchase, can SAA afford new aircraft at this moment?


User currently offlineStarship From South Africa, joined Nov 1999, 1098 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

It's not a case of whether they can afford it or not. They really do not have a choice. The 747-200s, SPs and 300s are costing a fortune to operate and in order to stay in the market they have no option but to go with new or slightly used aircraft, which will be much cheaper to operate and which will be on a par with what other international operators are using. The longer SAA continue to use their old aircraft the more money they loose and losses during the past year were fairly substantial. In order for the airline to be sustainable, the acquisition of modern long haul aircraft such as the B777, or A340 are essential to the survival of the airline.

It would appear that there are no buyers in the current market interested in the SAA 747-200s and SPs and it is likely that these aircraft will simply be withdrawn from use and scrapped. The 747-300s will be returned to their lessors.

Airbus and Boeing will be demonstrating their products during the course of the coming week at Johannesburg International.

Rumour has it that SAA might take over some of Lufthansa's A340-200s as an interim measure to reduce costs and create the infrastructure necessary for the later acquisition of upgraded A340s.



Behind every "no" is a "yes"
User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Times must be tough when the likes of BA and SAA are offering CPT-LHR round-trip in First Class for little more than 2,500 pounds! I think I'll be helping myself thanks very much!

Rand has really taken a hammering-at one stage it was at 20 to the pound!-albeit for a few hours last year; very difficult times for those who earn their salary in rands.

It will be interesting to see what happens with SAA.

Incidentally, they must do something about the service on some of their flights-I flew the 743 to LAD at Xmas in F. IFE wasn't working, wine list was non-existent. They can do better than that, especially in F, even if it is a flight to a destination no-one wants to fly to!

Regards


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

It will be interesting to see which way SAA go.

Someone recently said the more someone winges about something you do then more you can think you have done the right thing.

There is certainly a lot of that from Airbus regarding the "Twin" 777. And if you are talking about getting of the tarmac at the hot and high Johannesburg then its definately 777 for me. The 777 has power to burn and the A340 struggles to drag its sorry ass of the ground at sea level.

I don't remember Airbus moaning about Twin Engine restrictions when they only had the A300 in their book. After all it was Airbus who demonstrated to Boeing the incredible efficiency of the Twin with the A300.

The 777 has more capacity the same range and far better performance(Johannesburg) indeed and is no doubt the most economic/suitable proposition.








User currently offlineSterne82 From Belgium, joined May 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

"The 777 has more capacity(...) than the A340"

I didn't know that the 777-200 or the 777-300 had more capacity than the A340-600... and for the range... I didn't know too that the 777-200/300 have a longer range than the A340-500...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Regards,

Benjamin


User currently offlineZizou From Australia, joined Oct 2000, 1535 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

I think they will go for the B777. Just my 2 cents...  Smile

User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1020 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Capacity doesn't matter so much in this case

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Can anyone confirm that there was, at one time, a 777 order by SAA on the books......this was a few years ago, and, as I mentioned above, it was first deferred and later cancelled?

Not to be stubborn, I just dont see how SAA, at this time, can finance around 10 to 12 brand-new 777s or A340s (they will need that many if they do intend to replace the 742, 747SP and 743 with one type).

My guess would be the 777, but we shall see as Airbus needs an A346 order to get that program on track after the SR cancellation. As an alternative, I could see SAA picking up some used B744s to replace at least the 743s and 742s, many airlines have excess capacity and SAA could probably get good terms right now.


User currently offlineSterne82 From Belgium, joined May 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

According to the Airbus site:

A340-600:

Range: 7.500Nm (13.900Km)
Seatings: 380 (3-classes)/ 419 (2-classes)

A340-500:

Range: 8.500Nm (15.800Km)
Seatings: 313 (3-classes)/ 359 (2-classes)

According to the Boeing site:

B777-200LR:

Range: 8.810Nm (16.316Km)
Seatings: 301 (3-classes)

B777-300:

Range: 5.955Nm (11.029Km)
Seatings: 368 (3-classes)

B777-300ER:

Range: 7.715Nm (13.288Km)
Seatings: 365 (3-classes)

And the winners are...

Range:

1) B777-200LR: 8.810 Nm (16.316Km)
2) A340-500: 8.500Nm (15.800Km)

Seatings:

1) A340-600: 380
2) B777-300: 368
Simple isn't it?

So check your facts before saying such things!

Moreover, I'm not sure if SAA will be interested by ordering aircrafts which are not flying yet... cfr: B777-200ER or A340-500. Last things, SAA have not been very happy with the B737-800...

Regards,

Benjamin

P.S: The links? www.airbus.com or www.boeing .com

Simple isn't it?


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

"Better able than what? The A343? The B777 is a proven hot and high performer and the A340 doesn't even come close in this regard. "

LOL!

What is more powerful, an A340 which lost 1 engine, or a B777 which lost 1 engine ?

--
"The 777 has power to burn and the A340 struggles to drag its sorry ass of the ground at sea level. "

Do you know the word "FLEX THRUST"?


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1889 times:

Wasn't SAA also going to replace their newly purchased 737-800s? The A340 and perhaps in the long term even some A380s, for their JNB-LHR route, would make more sense as SAA will most likely replaces the 737-800 with A320 series aircraft. Commonality between all aircraft!
Just to remind you, before this thread turns out to a Pro-Airbus, Pro-Boeing fight....
We will see the outcome in a few weeks.



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User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1887 times:

"The 777 has more capacity(...) than the A340"

I didn't know that the 777-200 or the 777-300 had more capacity than the A340-600... and for the range... I didn't know too that the 777-200/300 have a longer range than the A340-500...

Regards,

Benjamin

Benjamin, I was considering models as built now. Perhaps you should read the attached links regarding the claimed and actual ranges of the A340.

Apparently the A340-600 in test did not make 12 hours (11.8 actually) fully loaded. Also the range of the 777 300ER exceeds that of the A346. Anyway have a read of the attached links... interesting reading and by the way I am not from Europe or USA.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/719264/6
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/719223/6



User currently offlineCapt.Picard From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1881 times:

'before this thread turns out to a Pro-Airbus, Pro-Boeing fight'....too late, my friend!  Laugh out loud

Anyway, here is an interesting article culled from the African news site allafrica.com

Slighly more relevant part is in bold;

Never a Better Time for SAA to Go Shopping

Business Day (Johannesburg)

January 30, 2002
Posted to the web January 30, 2002

Robyn Chalmers


Desperation for orders will determine whether Boeing or Airbus wins the tender

THE stakes have seldom been higher for the world's two largest aircraft manufacturers, Airbus and Boeing. They are fighting to remain in the black and drum up business in the midst of what is arguably the biggest crisis the aviation sector has faced.


US manufacturer Boeing has already bitten the bullet, announcing plans to shed almost a third of its 186000-strong staff complement and scale back production as much as 50%. Its smaller European rival, Airbus, is hoping to weather the storm, reducing costs while making limited staff cuts and decreasing production by only 17%.

It is a stomach-churning business, with little consensus on when airlines will recover sufficiently to begin making big aircraft orders again. Boeing is confident this will happen by 2004. Airbus says only that next year will be the lowest point in the cycle. Analysts generally believe it will be at least three years before there is any real growth in the market.

There is general consensus that the market will consolidate as less financially stable airlines go under or are swallowed up by their larger rivals and an increase in alliances between carriers takes place. The latter may take a different tack given that US regulators recently placed onerous new conditions on longstanding plans by American Airlines and British Airways for a transatlantic link-up, but existing alliances are likely to grow stronger as airlines seek to cut costs.

Cost-cutting will be the order of the day as airline after airline reports losses for the last three months of last year, from American Airlines to Northwest to British Airways to Lufthansa.

They are all struggling to cope with the dramatic drop in demand in the wake of the September 11 attack in the US, which pushed the already struggling airline sector into a deep recession.

In the face of such an onslaught, airline management tends to look at areas where revenue can be boosted and expenditure reduced. Apart from labour costs and other overheads, they invariably look to capital expenditure; which is when Boeing or Airbus gets a phone call.

Market share and aircraft orders are key to the survival of Boeing and Airbus in such tough times. The hype created around the development of entirely new aircraft by the two manufacturers the Airbus 500-plus-seat A380, and Boeing's superfast Sonic Cruiser highlights what is at stake.

Boeing has been in business for almost a century and retains the lion's share of the market. More than 80% of the world's aircraft have been manufactured by the US manufacturer. But Airbus, which has been operating for less than 30 years, is making inroads, particularly in recent years. After lagging behind Boeing in terms of new orders for much of its existence, Airbus inched ahead in 1999 and possibly last year, although the most recent figures are tentative. Boeing is still delivering more aircraft due to the long lead time it takes to build an aircraft, and is confident of retaining market dominance.

It is in this climate that our own national carrier SA Airways (SAA) is looking for 15 new or used aircraft on a budget of between $750m and $1,25bn to upgrade its ageing long-haul fleet. It could not have gone shopping at a better time.

SAA's communications head, Victor Nosi, describes the competition between the two rival manufacturers as severe. Given the depressed state of the international airline market, it has seldom been more intense.

SAA's fleet renewal programme is part of a strategy devised by André Viljoen, SAA president and CEO, and his management team to ensure the airline has a brand-new, state-ofthe-art long-haul fleet. "As much as our fleet is older (and) effectively maintained the aircraft tend to have a higher cost structure than a newer fleet," says Viljoen.

SAA's current long-haul fleet, now flying regionally and internationally, is made up entirely of Boeings. Most of the aircraft it owns are more than 18 years old, making them increasingly more expensive to maintain. The carrier also has a fleet of B747-400s and 20 B737-200s that are leased from Safair. The leasing period is coming up for review in about five years' time.

Airbus and Boeing have been closely considering SAA's needs. But they face competition from other quarters for the lucrative tender, mostly from leasing companies and a few airlines.

A key indicator of how tough times are in the airline industry is the number of aircraft "parked" by carriers. As demand falls, many airlines are forced to ground aircraft generally older planes. There are about 1900 aircraft parked at the moment, nearly 800 of which have been added since September 11.

SAA believes there is an opportunity in these aircraft, reasoning that some of the struggling airlines may be willing to sell aircraft off cheaply. The longer a plane is "parked" the more expensive it is to get into the air again and carriers may wish to offload, rather than divert scarce capital into the aircraft.

The problem is that no single airline has 15 similar aircraft they wish to sell. One of the key features of SAA's fleet upgrade is streamlining, which makes it quite unlikely that the airline will go for a mix of entirely different planes.

One way around this is to get a leasing agency to draw together similar planes from different carriers, an option SAA has explored. Management is expected to make a final recommendation on the winning bidder to the board next week.

Without sight of the bids, it is impossible to predict a winner at this stage or even a frontrunner. SAA says price is not the determining factor, but given the airline's weak financial position, a markedly lower tender is sure to win the day, all else being equal. Ultimately, it depends on who is the most desperate to beef up its order book.



User currently offlineSterne82 From Belgium, joined May 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Sorry, but I'd rather believe the official constructor site rather than some posts on this forum... I do not have say that I don't believe you or someone else, but I let suppose that the constructors know what they put on their website...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Regards,

Benjamin


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Interseting article Capt. Picard.
But I wouldn't call Airbus Boeings' smaller rival when it comes to civilian aircraft. If I remember well Airbus sold last year significantly more aircraft then Boeing.



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User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1878 times:

Unless Airliner World sales figures month by month are wrong then you mathematics needs some serious attention and Capt Picard is right.

In fact I have the September figures in an issue at work here and it was 17 Airbus and Boeing 36 Thats about 32% Airbus 68% Boeing.

Maybe Airbus will eventually sell more Aircraft than Boeing but thats certainly not the case now.



User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1830 times:

Boeing767-300,
Airliners world figures are the numbers of deliveries. In this case you are right. I was talking, and have clearly mentioned, about orders signed for. In that case Airbus has signed up more passenger aircraft than boeing in 2001.



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User currently offlineTEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

They are better going for either the 777-200/300ER or the A340-500/600 with higher thrust engines for hot and high airports.

User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Well it makes no sense to me. Whats the point having all the orders on paper as it were (Backlog) and then you only produce 17 units for a month. Boeing with supposedly less orders continually produces more units every month...... strange!

I presume the majority of money changes hands on delivery so what is more useful actual deliveries or orders you cannot keep up with??

Still its the first time an Airbus man admits that Boeing are and always have produced more A/C than Airbus.

Still this may change.



User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2290 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

That's right Manni, Airbus sold 2 more aircraft than Boeing last year. Uncork the champagne. If you call a 50.1%-49.9% order split for 2001 a "significantly more orders" you might want to sign up for a refresher course in English. It's certainly not the proper use of the word "significant". "A very very very slight edge" might be a better choice of words.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

An Airbus man? Now you make me laugh.
I like both Boeing and Airbus for different reasons. If the SC ever will be build, I will be as quick as possible to have a flight on it, same goes for the A380 or any other new aircraft. I just try to have a realistic look at what might happen.

I'm sure you know better than what you write with " Boeing with supposedly less orders continually produces more units... strange".

Boeing has always sold more aircraft then Airbus, until last year. These aircraft delivered last year are not the ones sold last year. If Airbus continues taking more orders then Airbus, Airbus will eventually produce more aircraft then Boeing. BTW, Airbus has started building a new plant in Germany for the production of the A380. Of wich are 97 firm orders signed for last year, I believe ( can't remember wether the LH order was in 2001 or 2002).



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25 Manni : Why should I uncork Champagne? I do not have a financial interest in Airbus unlike all these American teenagers who seem to have shares in Boeing. Al
26 Post contains images Capt.Picard : Will you guys quit talking about champagne?; little do you seem to be aware of the extent to which you are dragging great names like Dom Perignon thro
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