Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
EU Ban On Russian Noisy Airliners  
User currently offlineHoffa From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

By GUY CHAZAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


MOSCOW -- Russian officials are scrambling to soften the impact of a European ban on noisy airplanes that threatens to hammer the country's package-holiday industry.

Starting April 1, the aging Russian airliners that ferry most flights chartered by package-holiday operators won't be allowed to land at airports in Western Europe. A European Union ban on noisy planes could affect more than half the estimated 300,000 Russian tourists expected in Spain alone this year, according to Spanish tourist officials. The Russian Association of Tourist Agencies says total passenger traffic will fall by 8%, and it claims Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece could lose a total of $1 billion (1.15 billion euros) a year in revenue from Russian tourists.

Aeroflot, the national carrier, says it won't be affected because it uses Boeing and Airbus planes and modernized Tupolev 154s on most of its European routes. But the EU measure will ban planes such as the Ilyushin 86 and the Tupolev 134 that are used by smaller charter companies.

Russia's older aircraft weigh in at 100 decibels, compared with about 94 for the current generation of Boeings. European environmentalists have long called for a ban on the thunderous Russian models.

Safety fears have also grown: There were twice as many crashes involving Russian-built airliners in 2001 as in 2000, according to the European Commission.

Following last Tuesday's crash of an Iran Air Tours' Tu-154 in western Iran with the loss of all 119 people on board, Iran's transport minister said Tehran will be removing all Russian-manufactured planes from its fleet. (See related article.)

Russia has launched a diplomatic offensive against the EU's directive, sending delegations to Brussels and other European capitals to seek exemptions for certain planes. Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

The EU expresses hope that a compromise can be reached. Constantinos Vardakis, a European Commission spokesman, said Russia could negotiate temporary exemptions with individual EU member states that would allow certain planes to fly to certain airports. In return, Russia would have to provide a timetable for phasing out planes to comply with the new rules. A full repeal of the legislation is "out of the question," he said.

European officials stress that the Russians were given plenty of warning. The directive, based on a 1990 resolution of the International Civil Aviation Organization, was adopted by the EU in 1992; airlines were given 10 years to comply. Some, such as Aeroflot, already do. But smaller airlines without the funds to buy new aircraft say they will be badly hit.

Write to Guy Chazan at guy.chazan@wsj.com

Updated February 18, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST

Copyright © 2002 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved



44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNewSwissair From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2273 times:

That`s terrible for the Russian airlines. I would love to see them for a long time in the future. Switzerland isn`t in the EU and a Bulgarian Airline will fly to Zurich this summer with Tu-134. Great aircraft! Russian aircraft are as safe as western aircraft!!! Don`t forget, please.

User currently offlineGOT From Sweden, joined Dec 2000, 1912 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2251 times:

As much as I like to see russian planes come to western airports, I want them not to. I think most of us (if not all) want a nice envoirment, and old, noise, dirty planes, both western and russian, don't fit in.
If we puch the date when they will all be gone further and further, more people will start to complain and the whole industry may suffer.
As hard as it is, the old and noisy planes must go now, otherwise newer planes like 737 classic and so on may also suffer.

GOT



Just like birdwatching - without having to be so damned quiet!
User currently offlineLGW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2229 times:

To be honest im not to worried about the enviroment. Id rather see an An124 than have a clean enviroment. We wont be affected for years

LGW


User currently offlineMighluss From Spain, joined Oct 2001, 955 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2224 times:

I will miss them in BCN! yes, is better for the environment and all this but there are very few russian planes. I see no reason to complain.


Miquel.
User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2216 times:

Damn that Is crap, why would they do this? And how come '4db' is such a big deal? My stereo is measured in decibles, and the difference between say -40db and -36db is not much at all, so banning russian airliners would stop a tiny bit of noise, but lose the tourist industry hundreds of millions of euro's. Go figure.

User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2210 times:

Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2206 times:

4 dB(A) is a hell of a lot of difference: the noise level is doubled every 2 dB(A), so an increase by 4 means eighfold.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineYak42 From Ireland, joined Oct 2000, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

I do see benefits for Russia and eastern Europe in this. The banning of these outdated types such as the IL86, Tu134 and the Tu154B will create much demand for the newer Russian aircraft such as the Yak42, Tu154M, Tu204, Tu334 and the Il96 putting new life into their industry.
The Russian government may raise taxes on imported/EU aircraft forcing Aeroflot to buy home products.
Also the loss of some Russian tourists to EU countries may be to the gain of Black Sea resorts which are not doing as well as there Western European neighbours.
You see, every cloud has a silver lining.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineMagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

>>
Meanwhile Russian transport officials have threatened to retaliate, reducing the number of European flights that are permitted to fly over and into Russia if the ban is implemented.

If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.
<<

Why to be so emotional? They creating new market. They force
the Russians to buy new planes and those could be easily
Boeings. So, you should be happy.

Janos


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

>>If I were the Russian's, I wouldn't just reduce the fly overs, I'd ban them all together. Screw the EU.

Ha ha. These flyovers flush lots of money into some Russian coffers.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineYak42 From Ireland, joined Oct 2000, 801 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

Magyar, I fail to see why the Russians buying more Boengs would be a positive development.

User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6808 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Interesting that the EU hasn't banned flights of one of the noisiest aircraft still flying...the Concorde. I can't imagine why that might be.

User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

Well well well.. again an article about the EU starting a conspiracy against Russian aircraft? As far as I had understood so far, this ban includes ALL chapter 2 aircraft, like DC-8, Boeing 707, 737-200 and 727, BAC 1-11 etc? But I have also heard that they are working on an exemption for the IL-76 of some carriers, which shall undergo some modifications?

Rather than seeing this as an attack on the Russian economy, I rather would see this as a bold step towards more environmental and neighbourhood friendly air transport...

Tom


User currently offlineEBOS From Belgium, joined Jul 2001, 520 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

Tom,

Is there any link on the net with more info about a possible exemption for the IL76?

Thanks
Sven



An-225 stalker: 1 x LUX, 1 x EIN, 1 x DXB, 2 x SHJ, 3 x CGN
User currently offlineVafi88 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Why don't people like noisy planes? They keep whining about planes flying over their houses " causing noise" and disrupting their buisness. I have planes flying over my house a couple times a week to land on Runway 35 at DEN and I can't even hear them when I sleep. Russians never complain about this problem even with their noisiness and everybody else is whining.

I don't get it.



I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Scottb brings up a good point: What about the Concorde? Surely that plane MUST pollute and make more noise than any Russian aircraft out there?

User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2105 times:

Sure, but we are talking about 10 Concordes, flying mostly over the atlantic, compared with hundreds of Russian- and BTW other - older aircraft, which fly over populated areas.

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2105 times:

And how many Concorde flights are there? Nil, statistically speaking (i.e. too few to be the smallest dot on any chart).
Daniel Smile


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

looks like Gerardo beat me in expressing this point - it´s just common sense, after all...

User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

The number of Concordes doesn't mean anything IF this law is intended to save the environment and protect people from noise, correct?

After all, a polluting plane IS a polluting plane. A noise-making plane IS a noise-making plane. You can't say "The Concorde doesn't count." Maybe it doesn't count because it is European?


User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

@EBOS :

Sven, I don't know of a website concerning the IL-76, but when I saw the magazine "Air Cargo News" not too long ago, it had a feature story "Save the IL-76".

Have to ask in our office whether they still have these issue(s).

Best regards,

Tom



User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

Concorde is not more polluting than a 747.
And if you´re talking about noise - sure you can say "Concorde doesn´t count"; and because it makes no difference whatsover with roughly 2000 Concorde take offs per annum WORLDWIDE (the Russians combined probably do that in 3 hours) nobody´s going to care.
Daniel Smile


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6518 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2062 times:

It's a fact that a lot of people don't like noise, street noise, train noise, neighbor noise - lawnmovers etc. And aircrafts.

It's a fact that such noises are regulated by law, especially in densely populated areas.

It's a fact that many airports have a contract making them able to operate only within acknowled EU rules. Otherwise they have to be closed down.

It's a fact that since April 1992 nobody have been in doubt what rules would be in effect from 1st April 2002. And that those rules included a waiver for the present Concorde fleet.

It's a fact that many airports have had to impose more strict rules, or post April 2002 rules, many years ahead of 2002 in order to be able to continue operation.

It's a fact that non stage 3 compliant equipment have been picked up by some low cost charter carriers for very small amounts, because everybody knew that they could find very limited use after April 2002.

It's a fact that those carriers from day to day can pick up leased Stage 3 compliant equipment. But not for almost free like the noisy equipment. Some carriers may have a business plan which is only valid when they have the planes almost for free. They will close down when the "party is over".

Every time a deadline is approaching, then there will be a flock shouting "wulff is coming". But we will see next April, when the EU goes from 99% to practically 100% Stage 3 compliant, then it will not be the end of the world.

The worst effect in Europe will be that strawberries in February will increase 5% in price since those African B707 cargo planes will be retired from service to Europe.

Regards, Preben Norholm



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineNewSwissair From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Everybody wants to fly, but nobody wants the noise. I`m happy that Switzerland isn`t in the EU. So this year we will have some flights with older russian aircrafts.



25 Wodo : European carriers also have to follow the rules. Iberia has phased out its last 727. Why should foreigners be allowed?
26 Magyar : >> After all, a polluting plane IS a polluting plane. A noise-making plane IS a noise-making plane. You can't say "The Concorde doesn't count." Maybe
27 Prebennorholm : Dear NewSwissair, I hate to worry you. But Switzerland has always been the country which imposed stricter environmental rules than the EU, or imposed
28 Alessandro : This is a way to get rid of all the old passenger and cargo planes over crowded EU, guess this old ones will live on in remote areas of Russia, Asia a
29 Scottb : Whether or not there are "just" a dozen or so Concordes with a half-dozen takeoffs and landings daily, they're still noisy, and they still pollute. Mo
30 Prebennorholm : Yep ScottB, you are absolutely right, the Concorde noise waiver is a political waiver. Once or twice every day LHR and CDG (and JFK!) are filled with
31 Cba : This ban has two main advantages for the EU: 1. Noise and pollution will be reduced 2. Airlines operating older planes will be pressured to order newe
32 CPH-R : Preben, have you heard of the Air Botnia Yak-42 at CPH? According to I was told on a spotters tour there, every time they start their engines, they're
33 KAUSpilot : Actually the noise level doubles every 10 decibles. 3 decibles is the threshold of audible distinction for most people (ie you can't tell the differen
34 Donder10 : SO many EU reg flights to Asia go over Russia so things COULD get nasty.But appears that Russia has about 10 years notice!
35 NewSwissair : Hi Prebennorholm, You are right, with the rules in Switzerland. And I agree with you, that Russian airliners and other older aircraft are more often s
36 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : Click for large versionPhoto © Lasse Lehtonen Click for large versionPhoto © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photography Click for large vers
37 Pyh : "Preben, have you heard of the Air Botnia Yak-42 at CPH? " For sure he hasn't, because Air Botnia has never owned any Yak-42.
38 Trintocan : Yes indeed, that EU ban will hit Russia the hardest. After all, while there were 10 years to update the fleets (and Aeroflot indeed did so) those were
39 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : Have 154s long since been banned also? Seems like someone does not know what he is talking about. Click for large versionPhoto © Philippe Gindrat
40 NewSwissair : Tu-154M are Stage III suitable. All other versions of the Tu-154 are only stage II.
41 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : 727s at ZRH within the past year. Click for large versionPhoto © Florian Kondziela Click for large versionPhoto © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Avia
42 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : A loud, smokey small hole DC-8 at ZRH within the last two years. Click for large versionPhoto © Stefan Gruenig
43 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : Loud Russian Planes at ZRH Click for large versionPhoto © Martin Steiner Click for large versionPhoto © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photo
44 Post contains links and images Rlwynn : Of all the planes I watched take off Monday at ZRH, this was the loudest. Click for large versionPhoto © Charles Falk
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The EU Flag On Airliners posted Mon May 30 2005 08:43:48 by Trintocan
How Often Do You Fly On Russian Airliners? posted Wed Mar 21 2001 18:05:57 by B737-200
Info On Russian Airliners, Anyone? posted Mon Nov 20 2000 01:34:31 by Ady
Virgin Ban On Dell And Apple Laptop Use Revised posted Tue Sep 26 2006 03:22:14 by Eksath
Ban On MEA Flying To USA? posted Mon Jul 10 2006 00:05:33 by Rolo987
Ban On Lighters Sparks Debate posted Wed Apr 20 2005 14:59:06 by Squirrel83
The Ban On Some Sharp Objects Is Lifted In The U.K posted Mon Apr 4 2005 00:11:01 by Aerlingus330
Pres. Vladimir Putin Comments On Russian Aircraft posted Thu Feb 24 2005 05:51:53 by Aeroflot777
New EU Laws On Compensation Re: Overbooking.. posted Fri Nov 26 2004 11:05:52 by Zonky
Luggage Ban On Ryan Air? posted Thu Jul 8 2004 22:49:55 by StearmanNut