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Montreal-Mirabel To Close To All Passengers.  
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

http://www.canada.com/montreal/story.asp?id={4F3AD49B-D8AD-4BB3-B2B0-CCD98968B9A5}

And for those of you who undertand French:

http://www2.infinit.com/infos/regional/archives/2002/02/20020227-223907.html

What do you think?

95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Just Imagine how busy it will get at some times!

User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

GOOD! I hope they do shut down YMX. I travelled there from YUL with one of our corporate groups last year to fly a special charter to Turks & Caicos, and I would like to meet the brains that decided to
build an airport that far out from Dorval/Downtown. I know politics were involved in the late 60's/early 70's as to YMX's location, but my God....Location Location
Location!!! Also, I swear I have never been in a more uglier terminal than Mirabel. That place depressed the hell out of me.

Was also forced to overnight at the Chateau Mirabel,
or as my co-workers and I (and some TS cabin crews I know) refer to it as "Chateau Miserable".

I say....NUKE IT!

Canadi>nBoy
YYZ


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

I agree!

I never found Mirabel nice and modern. I found out depressing, boring and full of concrete. Sort of like the Big-O.


User currently offlineBaliMorris From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2486 times:

I guess it all comes down to past experiences. I've always liked Mirabel, but I agree that there was definitely some corruption involved in building an international airport in the middle of remote farmland. At least they could have built some sort of highspeed rail link with Montreal. Personally, I'll be very sad to see it close to all pax.

Now, the Big-O, that is one horrendous structure!
As a die-hard fan, I hope that by some miracle the team will stay in Montreal after this season, but even if they don't, I think the least MLB could have done was to have them play their final season back at ol' Jarry Park. I don't know what it's used for nowadays apart from the tennis tournament in the summer, but it still resembles a baseball stadium so they could probably still play ball there.


User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

The only reason I find Mirabel depressing is due to the fact that it is empty of people and airlines (except TS). If that terminal would be full, it would be something else.

I said it before, I'm all for tying up that terminal to 450 Skycrane heavy airlift choppers, lifting it, and dropping it on top of Dorval's prefab style, bad photocopy of a Mid-1950's soviet econo-terminal.  Laugh out loud

...but seriously I do like YMX's high ceilings.





User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2442 times:

LOL, thats a good one CessnaPimp..... but the terminal is configured in an all itnernational flight style.... do you wanna take one of those little buses on a 51 minute flight to YYZ?

Mark


User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

No, no I do not.
Once YUL gets the terminal it deserves, I think it would be a good idea for Bombardier to make a proposal for YMX's terminal to become a state-of-the-art assembly line, complete with a sports bar, arcade, weird paintings, AMPLE parking space and a bunch of flags on the ceiling (good for foreign buyers that visit).


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

Another Trudeau white elephant bites the dust. Finally.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Good Idea Cessnapimp!

There will be no doubt that this is a very controversial move, and will anger the residents and the West Island and Mirabel(Point Claire reseidents are already suing ADM for keep DORVAL open!), but this is the smart thing to do and anyone who gets in the way is just ruining Montreal's Aviation market.


User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

I dont know why you people hate YMX so much, YUL isnt any better. To drive to YUL is a journey in itself - you need to be constantly turning and changing lanes. That is very annoying! Not to mention that the roads follow much of the perimeter of the airport for no particular reason. What a mess!

The interior of YUL is nice, but quite small. I really hate the tunnel that leads to the trans-continental departure/arrival gates (for flights on board KLM, AF, CSA, LH...). Its dark, grey, and dirty! YUL could certainly use some major modifications.

BTW: Many flights that are late, and arrive after midnight are redirected to YMX. Will this continue? I had such a flight with Air France last summer.


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

JU101, did you know that that area, the runnel you hate, will be torn in a few years and will be replaced by a state-of-the-art international finger? Did you know that YUL is going through a major expansion?

Going to YUL is not a journey? It takes 15 minutes from Downtown. So what it followes the perimeter of the runway? I find it cool! Mirabel is so far away, and it's depressing, that's why we dislike it so much.

Lane changing? Alright, you got a point there once you reach the Dorval circle, but before that it's fine.


User currently offlineAamd11 From UK - Wales, joined Nov 2001, 1059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

Who actually cares here??? Why does Montreal need twp "Major" airports anyways??? its a city of like 5m people.... one airport the size of Dorval is good enough.. and there is room to expand.. correct???

If you ask me Mirabel is a waste of time,.. they should close it, save em some money.


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Agreed! But we all care, because this is good news! By the way, Montreal's pop. is 3.5 million.

User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Well,

It's sad to see YMX yet lose another bit. I personally like this airport. From a pilot perspective, it's a cool airport, really friendly controllers, huge fully equiped runways ..ect

I'm no airport expert, but I beleive that someday YUL is going to get saturated one way or another. If only, like someone suggested above, some sort of rapid-rail connection was made between the 2 airports.

Radarbeam

P.S: I am a new member here.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

Well welcome Radarbeam.

So what will happen to the YMX terminal? Unless the entire YMX airport closes, I'm not sure I see alot of cost reduction. The costs assoc with keeping YMX (as a cargo airport anyway) open will continue.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Most of the costs come from terminal operations no doubt!!

I would move all the general aviation out of Dorval and move it to Mirabel.... Mirabel should thrive as a cargo centre..

Mark


User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2310 times:

Let's not make another Ottawa intl with YUL, where airport authority are trying to get rid of the General Aviation. I think that the GA market as alot of potential at YUL. Let's not put them in a remote area (read YMX) just to give place to the airlines.

Radarbeam


User currently offlineAad665 From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Hi Folks,

Just a suggestion, let move GA at St-hubert. It is a very conveniant airport.

I don't think Dorval have room to expand.

My point of vue is very simple. It was a huge mistake to keep Dorval open. The long term solution at that time was to turn down Dorval and keep Mirabel.

Anyway, ....politic!

Luc


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Keep politics out of this.... the desicion had nothing to do with politics, I had to do with the fact that there was an ooppurtunity to remedy a huge exodus.. its pretty much cured now........

How much would it cost for YMX to be developed???

Mark


User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

It's not about politics, it's about how bad the management is at ADM  Insane

Radarbeam


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2230 times:

The ADM management hasnt been amazing, but in the last little while, its really turned some heads.....

The new CEO is a very intelligent man, and new airlines are coming into town, more than ever before.....

Dorval will be fine, and we can finally be able to compete with everybody!

Mark


User currently offlineNoise From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1789 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Montreal and it's airports aren't the currupt organazations they were a few years ago. Since the arrival of the new management team, things have been getting a lot better.

Don't underestimate Montreal and ADM. Things WILL work out.


User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Well im glad to hear that the tunnel at YUL will be renovated, but its a shame that it is in such bad shape to begin with! An expansion at YUL will certainly be welcome, and i hope they make designs to accomodate spotters.

Nevertheless, the main road leading to Dorval must be totally redesigned. The current nonesense design is an absolute mess, and must be simplified. Of course this will cost lots of money, and i guess the Federal government will chip in...


User currently offlineBiggles313 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Well,looking at the sequence of events, this is the right thing to do. YMX was a disaster in the first place of course... In the 60s Montreal was a thriving city of international stature - the commercial centre of Canada. Additionally, Dorval was a major stop on most trans-Atlantic services from North America, primarily for refueling. Dorval is a WW2 airport and the terminal is from the '50s. No wonder they wanted to expand!!
The politicians chose to build up in Ste Scholastique for many reasons - noise was a major concern, but also the proximity to Ottawa was probably a major reason to put it to the North and not to the South. Had it been built on the south shore perhaps people wouldn't complain so much and transportation (Metro extension?) would have been easier. Mind you with St Hubert etc nearby it is almost as stupid an idea. Forcing the farmers off their land, and then never even finishing Aut. 13 just shows the mess this whole project was in.

Just as YMX was completed, aircraft noise was being reduced and range increased - hence two major reasons for YMX's existence vanished. Then Montreal went into decline as the politicians buggered everything up further and people began moving to T.O. Now every time I return to the city it seems more depressed...

Was putting the international flights back at YUL in '97 a good long-term solution? No! It is a great short-medium term solution though. The old intl terminal and that bloody tunnel were given facelifts (dont you love the posters with sound effects?) and the main terminal was renovated at enormous cost. When they have to expand further (soon!) the cost will increase further still. A new terminal wouldn't fit anywhere as it is, and would cost huge $$.

The right solution, IMHO, would have been to build proper transportation links to and from YMX, from downtown AND YUL, move all major traffic there (inc. USA and Canada) and keep YUL as a GA / very small commercial airport, like Toronto Island for example. YMX has the expansion space and a main terminal that is vast compared with cramped Dorval. The shuttle buses from there are now at JFK and similar ones used successfully for large aircraft at IAD. They may seem like a pain, until you've walked 2 miles at LHR from your gate........ they are very efficient, reducing terminal size and therefore maintenance and heating costs.

Its sad to see it go, but the way things have gone now, it was inevitable. Some day they might re-open it when Dorval starts to burst at the seams and ADM has spent 10 times as much on it as it would need to spend to make YMX more viable........that is always the way!



As for the highways, the 20 to Dorval is no worse than the rest of Montreal... overpasses that look like they are about to fall down, huge potholes and cracks....nothing worse than the rest of the city!!  Smile peace


25 FLYYUL : Well if you see Montreal as more depressed... you've got no clue what has gone on..... its gotten much better... and stop about the potholes, we have
26 Noise : Biggles313, your an idiot. Montreal isn't deperessed and never was depressed. That's all I have to say
27 Post contains images Yyz717 : Biggles talks alot of sense. Montreal is definitely in long slow decline (in total, and on a PCI basis) compared with English Canada and the US...and
28 FLYYUL : Neil, The economy in Montreal has grown faster than the rest of Canada (excluding YYZ of course), on an absolute term i nthe last 5 years, and in perc
29 Yyz717 : YUL handled just under 9M pax in 1975, and YUL/YMX combined about that in 2000. Most airports in North America more than doubled their traffic. YYZ ha
30 FLYYUL : Negative, Ive got the stats, in 1974, Montreal YUL carried about 5.8 million, and YMX wasnt even built... but you can make up your stats as we go alon
31 Yyz717 : I've seen 9M for YUL for 75. I'll dig it out. Whether 5.8M or 9M, we can agree YUL is in relative decline. NA pax traffic rose 150% from 75 to 2000. Y
32 Noise : Neil, we know YUL drew very slowly compared to other NA cities, but that was the past, and you have to stop looking at the past, and see the present a
33 Yyz717 : Are you adding transferred YMX traffic to your YUL traffic figures?
34 Noise : Sorry, I don't understand your question. Are you talking about the 1999 stats? If so, I am not adding thise figures. If you are talking about the 1974
35 Yyz717 : You answered my Q. Thanks.
36 Post contains images FLYYUL : Nope, the transfer was done in 1997... In 1998, YUL grew 1% due to the ice-storm and AC strike and AF strike and NW strike in 1999, YUL grew 5.3% and
37 Biggles313 : gentlemen, don't get me wrong. i've been in the UK for a number of years now (since '93) and it infuriates me to notice that Montreal has been loosing
38 Yyz717 : You are correct Biggles. YYZ actually surpassed YUL in terms of traffic as long ago as 1965 when Toronto was gaining on Montreal as Canada's premier c
39 Planeawesome : I'm always amazed at how so many people from Toronto critisize any place that isn't Toronto. I have many friends and family in Torontoland. I live in
40 TWAneedsNOhelp : so whats YMX's function now? Is this where Bombardier builds its planes? Is there cargo traffic? Could it be replaced with something else? Mall, amuse
41 Post contains images Yyz717 : Relax Planeawesome. Mark (FLYYUL) knows I'd kidding. I have a lot of respect for Mark and his knowledge of Montreal aviation. Neil PS. Toronto fears n
42 Post contains images FLYYUL : South and West eh? How shallow of you, your forgetting who your largest CMA trading partner is (its Montrel by a long shot) Mark
43 Post contains images Biggles313 : I knew this would turn into a Montreal VS Toronto flaming match. I used to hate Toronto as many Montrealers do (business meant my family was transferr
44 Yyz717 : The Montreal aviation industry focus was based more on government intervention than the market. The AC base MUST be in Montreal. The CF-18 contract th
45 Jj : I liked the big terminal, sad thing...
46 LH423 : As an outsider, all I can say in Montreal's defence is that, yes, there is no argument that the language crap, and the resultant political instability
47 Noise : How true, LH423. Montreal's economy is growing, and once the world wide economy picks up, Montreal will really boom, unless the PQ gets re-elected and
48 FLYYUL : YYZ717, are you saying that Bombarider, PW Canada, Messier Dowty, Rolls Royce Canada, Bell Helipcopter Canada, Air Transat, ex-Royal, Heroux aerospace
49 Yyz717 : Correct Mark......but the biggest AC base is YYZ...that's where the revenue is. Hence, that's where the HQ should be. YYZ provides the revenue base. H
50 FLYYUL : But for airlines, thats not always the truth! Canadian was a Calgary based airline with most of its revenue in Vancouver network. Its YYC hub was comp
51 Yyz717 : Fair enough.....but those airlines are free to relo their HQ's. AC is MANDATED in the Air Canada Act to remain HQ'ed in Montreal. This is discriminati
52 Cessnapimp : And on that note, how 'bout that Mirabel airport closing to passenger traffic. Pretty interesting huh? I still think Mirabel could be a great tool for
53 Yyz717 : I have no problem with YMX being marketed to make money......just no more federal tax $ to support another Quebec project! PLEASE! Let YMX stand on it
54 Noise : "This is discrimination against English Canada" What the..... Do you know how many times Quebercers have been discriminated by English Canada? I think
55 AC320 : Geez with people like Yyz717, no wonder the francophones of Quebec want to seperate.....
56 Post contains images LH423 : YYZ provides the revenue base. Hence, YYZ should benefit from the HQ jobs As already mentioned, I can give you three examples of airlines that are not
57 Yyz717 : AC is the only publicly traded airline in the world that has had its HQ location MANDATED by its own Federal government to be in a specific city. For
58 Post contains images AC320 : Oh my God! Montreal has something that Toronto doesn't, this is an absolute outrage! Toronto seems to get along just fine without the AC corporate HQ
59 Yyz717 : Just commenting on it....that's all. You can read it personally if you want. AC should be free to relo its HQ if it desires (or leave it in YUL for th
60 AC320 : Actually with Quebec and Ontario being the largest centres of population, the federal government reperesents these two provinces more than the others
61 Yyz717 : True. However, the Federal AC Act should be amended to allow AC to relo its HQ......if it wants to. Or better....scrap the AC Act altogether.
62 Cessnapimp : AC doesn't seem to complain... what's the deal?
63 Noise : Geez, you'd do anything to put down Montreal, wouldn't you? This is a Mirabel closing down topic, not an AC headquarters topic. I respect your commen
64 Yyz717 : Sorry Noise......I'm not putting down Montreal. Merely stating that the Federal Air Canada Act passed by parliament upon the AC sale to the private se
65 Post contains images FLYYUL : The Air Canada act is also dictated by its largest shareholder, LA CAISSE DE DEPOT....... Wanna talk about English Canada discrimnating against Quebec
66 Yyz717 : Mark, airlines are free to serve the YUL market. They would if there were profitable oppy's. It seems there aren't any addl ones. In our deregulated e
67 Post contains images FLYYUL : hmmm right ok I refuse to believe that. If you believe that YYZ-YYT can be more profitable than YYZ-YUL, then probably someone forgot the law of suppl
68 Yyz717 : In response, 1) unless you are an AC insider in the Finance dept, you are not privy to the yield and profit of each route and market. This info is pro
69 FLYYUL : Which domestic airline can step in? Westjet is starting in may (they are really close to announcing YUL services)... And yep, look at who's coming in
70 Post contains images LH423 : Heavens no, Ottawa is discriminating against Toronto. I think the city of Toronto should cecede from the Union Get a grip, seriously! I don't see how
71 Planeawesome : If you really want to talk about subsidies: -I'm sure that most of the Air Canada 1.5$ billion loss from last year was spent in Toronto but sourced el
72 Yyz717 : YYZ is the natural hub of Canada as it handled close to 3x its nearest Canadian 'competitor' airport. It's market driven. The Pearson improvements by
73 FLYYUL : Right now, Air Canada really cant find a proper definition of 'efficient'... their 1.25 billion loss, which in my mind, is terrible comparing the fact
74 Yyz717 : You know nothing about individual route profitability and yet assume that 17 daily YYZ-YYC flights are driving down yields, that YYZ-IAH/DFW loses mon
75 Post contains images Nicolasrolland : Wow How come the subject is back on Toronto eh? Oh well how about rerouting the subject back to Montreal vs Mirabel or Montreal + Mirabel Yes YYZ is
76 Post contains images FLYYUL : Nope not sour grapes, frustrated after being lied to for the last decade Mark
77 Post contains images Yow : Just to let you know Mark, Skyservice does serve YOW now, they started this past winter...you can`t blame them for not flying from YYZ to either YOW o
78 Post contains images Tristar2000 : I'm sad to see YMX lose pax. ops, always loved the airport, but at this point, it was inevitable, although it's not done yet, not before spring 2003.
79 Noise : Both Tristar2000 and Yow make exellent points. About YMX closing, I doubt TS will keep their ops there, becasue ADM will just continue to loose money.
80 Yow : Being an Ontarian what about all the money the feds spent to keep CP alive eh? This english vs french thing is nonsense.
81 Tristar2000 : You're right Noise, I didn't use the term ops in the right way there... What I meant was Air Transat is going to fly its pax. out of YUL, yes, but the
82 Noise : Yow, I agree with you, but sometimes in this country, and especially in the province of Quebec, you can't ignore it.
83 Noise : If/when all flights are moved to YUL, I doubt we will see that much of a conjestion at YUL. the TB finger will be complete and the Intl. finger is alm
84 Tristar2000 : Let's hope so!!!
85 Noise : That's what sickens me about Montreal and Quebec. We can only HOPE, but we never know for sure what is going to be done. It's so..............corrupt!
86 Yyz717 : So, opposing the mandate that AC is required to be HQ'ed in YUL is racist? PLEASE. What an incredible quantum leap Tristar2000. Do you often use the '
87 Post contains images Cessnapimp : "Geography in a way has also benefited Toronto becoming a hub as it is more centrally located in the country and continent than Montreal." ...once aga
88 Post contains images Yyz717 : hahaha
89 Post contains images Tristar2000 : Neil, since you don't fully remember everything you wrote, let me refresh your memory: Montreal is definitely in long slow decline (...) compared with
90 Yyz717 : If questioning Federal legislation that benefits Quebec to the detriment of other provinces makes me anti-Quebec, then so be it. Answer the following
91 Noise : Yyz717, I think we all agree that the Federal legislation REQUIRING the HQ of AC be in Quebec PERMANENTLY is not in the interest of all Canadians, but
92 FLYYUL : When realizing that the FEDS have more than 75%of their seats in Ontario, I dont know how you can see it as discrimination! Mark
93 Alessandro : So when was it decided that Montreal should have a 2nd international airport? Was it about the same time as the olympic summer games was planned in M?
94 Noise : Yeah, around that time, but the Olympics wasn't the reason. The reason why YMX was built is because it was feared that YUL would be over congested, an
95 Cessnapimp : Move AC's HQ's + Bombardier to YMX = Wide open spaces for YUL to expand upon!
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